type-rated (757) terrorists ?

[piperindian]

Well, it seems from the passengers (who called on the cellulars) that the pilots where whisked away from the cockpit and the terrorists took control of the variouys planes, which are of only two types apparently, 757, 767.
This is disturbing, they probably had training with an experienced 757 or 767 pilot or instructor (middle-east operator ?).
This operation was well put-up and they did have few time to take control until point of impact. When you put someone without exp in a simulator, he does not fare too well.

God Bless America

[Capt PPRuNe]

As a B757/767 pilot, and I am sure many of my colleagues will concur, for anyone to take over the controls of one of these jets from anywhere not on a direct trajectory towards the targets, especially if not trimmed and if power is added or reduced, is likely to have had some, even if limited, training on type.

Someone somewhere has probably provided some sort of training, probably in a simulator, wittingly or unwittingly to these sub-humans who have caused this terrible tradgedy. Every training organisation worldwide must go back through their records and see if there is anything that they can find that would point to anyone with a profile that does not fit the norm. I cannot believe for one instant that there is ANY professional pilot anywhere int he world that would perpetrate this kind of senseless massacre whether voluntarily or even at gun or knife point.

[smallwing]

I think nowadays aircrafts are made too easy to fly, with full autopilots. How hard would it be to change heading, airspeed and alt. with the autopilot.

I think a person who plays enough video games (flightsim) knows exactly what can be done.

God bless all who were involved.

[Ace Rimmer]

I concur with smallwing I suspect that anyone with flt sim and one of the very realistic 757/767 add ons would probably have enough knowlege of the aircraft and its autopilot and FMC to have carried out the attack.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Anyone who has played with FS2000 or whatever may think they can control one of these jets at the drop of a hat but in my experience, and I remember the first time handling a big jet sim how difficult it was. Add to that the cockpit layout and the countless distractions it has to have been someone with some real sim training. No professional pilot would do this.

[swashplate]

I understand you can hire these sims for about £200/hr?

Maybe thats what happened - they posed as 'enthusiasts' and got to practice flying the 757? :eek:

Lots organisation behind this obviousley.....

RIP to all involved. :( :(

[scroggs]

I disagree. Autopilot controls are not sufficiently precise for an inexperienced pilot to hit as relatively small a target as the World Trade Centre or the Pentagon without precision guidance. It is conceivabe that a GPS-linked FMS guiding the autopilot might manage to hit these buildings, but that would require detailed knowledge of the precise FMS fitted to each of these aircraft. It is far more likely that these terrorists used experienced light-aircraft pilots who received a small amount of training in a B757/767 simulator to practise these exact manouevres.
It's a sick excercise, I know, but if you try to achieve something similar in FS2000 or other computer flight sim using an autopilot, I think you will discover that the chances of 'success' are far too small for the terrorists to have accepted. These pilots knew what they were doing.

[Evo7]

I remember being told that it would be hard for a PPL trained pilot to control a heavy passenger jet due to the significant momentum of the aircraft. Dealing with that is not difficult, but requires practice. Is this true? Presumably, then, it would imply that they must have had some sort of sim training?

[maxy101]

Interestingly enough, B.A runs simulator visits on its simulators for VIP's or just about anyone willing to pay. The standard sim-ride is to get airborne from JFK and fly through the "twin towers" !! As BA uses a standard database from the manufacturer, I wonder how many sim providers do similar things!! :confused:

[SaturnV]

the 757 that hit the Pentagon executed what seems to be a low level high speed attack and is described as maneuvering like a fighter. not likely a talent picked up in a sim.
see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12507-2001Sep11.html

[Loc-out]

Type rated? No I don't think so.
A training period at home with a suitable computer program and a "crash course" on an applicable simulator would be adequate to do the job.

[Flap 5]

I believe that maxy is spot on. All of these sims have the same database. It is clearly very easy to set up a simulator in the climb out of Boston for a crew to practise taking over the aircraft and flying it in to the World Trade Center - especially if the visual of Manhatten is in the database.

How many hours would it take to perfect this aswell as the operation of the autpilot and taking out the autopilot to fly it manually at the final stage? I reckon with Bin Laden's financial backing they could have spent as many hours as they needed in a sim.

However no simulator company would hire out their sim without knowing that there was a qualified instructor in charge of the sim detail. Therefore there has to be some airline involvement - possibly Iraq Air?

All of the aircraft were 757 / 767 which is a common rating. Check the useage of 757 / 767 sims over the last two years around the world and you will find something out.

[Evo7]

Saturn V

I'm confused. Are you saying that it's a skill picked up in a fighter or a sign that the pilot was unskilled?? I'm just trying to understand the level of skill of the people flying those aircraft.

[atprider]

Or - How about an "expert" opinion......

David Learmount, our old Flight International friend says in the Times Weds 12th:
"It would be very easy for a hijacker to order the pilot to fly to New York. At the last minute he could shoot him in the head, move the body out of the way and take over the controls of the plane. It would then be straight forward to fly it into a target as large as the building in question. Anyone could do it with ...no training whatsoever"

Ok, David, so even if there were no struggle from the other pilot, or any resulting human debris from the shooting to move a body (or two) without destabilising the aircraft to a point where it became difficult to control is IMHO very unlikely.

Unless of course the AP was engaged, in which case obviously some experience would be necessary to disengage it and continue controlled, and apparently extremely skilled flight.

This qoute seems to me to be very Ill advised for a man in such a position to make.
Opinions anyone ?

[SaturnV]

graphic of the flight paths of the four planes can be found at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/hijack091101.htm


the plane that hit the pentagon had flown west all the way to kentucky before turning east.

[Velvet]

I understand that there are rumours coming out of America, reported this morning, that there were 8 planes hijacked and that 4 were shot down.

[scroggs]

I think it's entirely possible that extremist sympathisers who are ex-military or airline pilots from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan (and maybe others) were involved. Having an ATPL doesn't make one necessarily right-minded, nor does being an extremist (of whatever persuasion) make it impossible for one to have the skill to fly an airliner. There are, I'm sure, 757/767 sims (or sims of similar types of aircraft)in those countries, and it may be very difficult to establish whether any unusual use was made of them recently.

Velvet:
I find it very unlikely that the crashes (for they must have crashed, having been shot down) of four further large aircraft would have gone un-noticed in the current media bunfest. Nothing of that nature could possibly have been suppressed; Americans would have been on to the phone to the local TV companies immediately anything fell out of the sky, and we would probably have home-video footage of some of it. No, I think that one is wishful thinking on the part of some local radio or TV junior hack.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]

[Ace Rimmer]

Perhaps I should have said that they could use the autopilot/FMS to get themselves in the general area of the WTC or Pentagon. and then hand fly in the final phase - we're not talking about finesse. I'm not suggsting that this was the case just saying that it is possible.
On another point, I've done one of the these VIP (perk of being a journo) things at braincrank with the said hand flying around Manhattan and the WTC (744 sim) and frankly in the light of yesterday it was disturbingly easy (for a GA type of driver). I accept that with a clearly well researched attack the perps may and indeed, hopefully (since it may help in tracking them down) sought some kind of professional level training.

[SaturnV]

Evo7, not saying that the pentagon hijacker was a former fighter pilot. I am thinking that the hijacker probably had some hours in a jet aircraft, and that doesnt mean he was type-rated. But the overall flight profile and the description of him coming in very low and very fast and then banking right to hit the pentagon suggest to me that there were skills applied that one would not get easily from a sim.

[Case One]

An appalling lack of restraint and common sense is being shown by certain people on this web site. Any pilot will have a reasonable idea of how this can be achieved. Anyone else does not NEED TO KNOW. Can we all please stop any discussion of technical/operational methods that may have been used. Confine PUBLIC discussion to how to find the perps, stop the next attempt (and there will be a next attempt, and it could be your aircraft). :mad:

[flappyfeet]

The mobile calls from the poor people on board these aircraft indicated that the terrorists were stabbing, or threatening to stab, the cabin crew to entice them out of the flight deck (FD). All this brings in to stark relief that if these fanatics hadn't gained access to the controls then these tragedies would be have been less likely to happen.
In my ops manual, any cabin disturbance should never be a reason to leave the flight deck. I wonder whether the pilots in the crashed aircraft were forced out of the FD, or left it to try and help their crew? It must have been a bloody invidious position to be in and I can't believe that any one put in their position with knowledge of previous hijacks, mainly ending peacefully, can blame them for their actions (whatever they were, despite this outcome). I feel however that in the near future that there may be some sort of legislation to keep the pilots at the controls and FD doors to remain locked at all times. This would make pee breaks, food and drink moments a bit interesting to achieve, particularly on long haul. Does any one out there have any thoughts on this one?

[NigelS]

Scroggs, you're probably right. It probably is down to an arab nation. However, the US would be unwise not to look at it's own first (at least before nuking Afghanistan!). There are plenty of home-grown crazies there to get off on this sort of thing, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some of them have large jet experience...

[Tan]

Someone trained these "Killers"...Who sold them the simulator time?? Its time we found out..

[Airbubba]

Reports this morning say that Arabic language flight manuals were found in a rental car in BOS. Also, search warrants are being executed in Daytona Beach, home of one of the Embry Riddle campuses that trains many students of Middle Eastern origin. Apparently at least some of the hijackers held UAE passports.

[Golden Monkey]

From the Washington Post - a fair amount of journalistic license, however this does support the belief that the terrorists involved had considerable depth of knowledge of the aircraft.

------------------

The hijacked jetliner that slammed into the Pentagon had been flying directly at the White House but made a sharp turn at the last minute before it crashed into the US military headquarters, The Washington Post reported Wednesday.

Citing unnamed sources, the report said American Airlines Flight 77 seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House Tuesday until the unidentified pilot executed a fighter jet maneuver, circling 270 degrees to to approach the Pentagon from the west.

The Post said someone on board turned off the transponder, the device that sends a plane's airline identification, flight number, speed and altitude to controllers' radar screens. The actions suggest the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, probably by a trained pilot was at the helm, with someone who knew how to turn off the transponder.

It said controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the presidential mansion at full speed.
The report said the FBI had asked airline, airport and security officials not to divulge details of the flight.

Pentagon officials had no estimate of the killed, missing and wounded from the Boeing 757, which collapsed a large section of the building's west side.

Reports that as many 800 people were dead were "completely inaccurate," a Pentagon official said speaking on condition of anonymity.

[inverted flatspin]

United Airlines tested a bunch of low time private pilots in heavy jet sims a few years ago and the majority of them were able to fly the planes however it was not precise flying and the landings were hairy but survivable. The kind of flying we saw yesterday would have required some time in the sim to transition. The second plane that hit the WTC certainly looked like it was being slipped precisely.

[NigelS]

The find of arabic language flight manuals is great for the investigators but sounds a little... suspicious. It would be very careless of the perpetrators to leave something like that hanging around the airport...
Remember the tapes exhibit the hijackers communicating with each other in English.

[Zandor]

Do you really believe that a pilot without any previous jet experience could fly a B767 or a B757 during a low flight, presumably at 250kt or faster, make that precise small turn just prior to hit exactly the target?
A FS pilot only could fly an airplane if the A/P were engaged, hands on experience is quite nil. If non experienced pilots would have tried that maneuver, without any doubt, they'd flown to the wrong direction, at least once, and in those cases, there were only one attempt (except UAL757).
I don't think that B767/757 simulator training is required to fly those airplanes since you have some knowledge of FMS, MCP controls, and of course some jet airplane reaction experience, during manual flight. Landing practice wasn't absolutely required...

[fisherman]

From the time of deviation from submitted flight path to impact, FAA should have known the hijacking for about 30 minutes.

Was FAA and FBI aware of the conspiracy after crashing at WTC and were there any other plane deviated from regular flight path at that time?

It was a wise decision to ground all flights over the America yesterday.

From the flight path, transponder was turned off and precision flying, there is little doubt, those planes were commanded by trained pilots.

My condolence to Americans and may those RIP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/hijack091101.htm

[stagger]

Regarding flight training, found this...

------------------------------------------
The FBI interviewed a Venice, Fla., couple Wednesday about two men who stayed at their house for a week in July 2000 while the men were taking small-plane flight training at Venice Municipal Airport.

FBI agents "informed me that there were two individuals that were students at Huffman Aviation, my employer, and FBI told me they were involved in yesterday's tragedy,'' said Charlie Voss, who was interviewed with his wife, Drew Voss, at their home.

The couple accepted the two men as house guests as a favor to the company, Voss said. The men, who stayed just a few days, trained at the airport and came to the house to sleep, he said.
------------------------------------------

[Desk Driver]

The Aircrew were told that no-one would be hurt if they co-operated. No one had any clue these guys were suicide hijackers. I imagine they were expecting to spend a few days onboard on the ground at somewhere like Cuba. I hope no one dares to question the crews actions! Just ask yourselves guy's what would you do?

Condolence to all innocents involved

The world changed forever yesterday & I lost my faith in humanity. All that in the name of religon?....Oh Please!!

[yorkunt]

Desk Driver,

I agree. Religion is probably the single biggest killer on this planet!

[geiginni]

Assuming the hijackers had some training and/or advanced knowlege of the 757/767, would it not be prudent for the FAA to perhaps ground all 57s/67s for a few extra days while they further their investigation?

I know this would be devastating to some carriers that rely on these types quite heavily, though more hulls/lives lost would be an even greater concern. Some carriers, like Southwest, Alaskan, or Northwest would feel little effect.

[no sponsor]

The question raised over the "slipping" of the aircraft into the second tower is interesting. I have watched the approach of the UA 767 into the building and concluded:

1. The pilot crossed his controls to expose the wings to 5-10 floors, as opposed to crashing in into one, to gain maximum devastation.

2. It was a higly executed and professional flying manouver to precisely hit the spot and to prevent any possible drift - which suggests complete manual control over the aircraft.

It is also interesting to note that at least one of the aircraft, before the transponder was turned off, indicated a new airport code had been entered into the FMC which suggests the hijackers had enough knowledge to re-do the route. This would indicate a relatively high level of workings in the systems and handling of the aircraft - something that would surely come from groundschool and sim preparations.

A shocking, deeply disturbing episode in world history.

May God give wisdom to those left, and blessings to those lost.

[iffy IFE]

I was in a 744 sim with a guy who flew under the Golden Gate bridge 10mins after taking the controls with no previous flying experience. A/T engaged but no other aids.

Assuming the crew or automatics got them to within visual range and in relatively stable flight, I don't see that type-rating would have been needed to do the final deadly part.

Horrible day, RIP.

[iffy IFE]

OK, I hadn't heard any of this info about transponder or FMC changes. I withdraw my previous comment.

[spagiola]

It seems to me that the available information can lead to many different conclusions. For example:

Was the bank the UA 767 executed a "brilliantely executed" "slip" to "inflict maximum damage"? Or was it a desparate bank to actually hit the building, when the terrorist feared he might miss it?

Was the reported 270 degree turn executed by the AA 757 before hitting the Pentagon a "fighter-like" maneuver? Or was it a second approach made necessary because the pilot missed the first one?

Either interpretation would be consistent with the evidence as we know it so far. We shouldn't discount the possibility that these nuts (to use the most polite word that comes to mind) had little more than a PPL (for basic flying skills) and some MS Flight Sim time (from which they could have learned the necessary instrument layout and use -- some of the instrument panels are amazingly detailed and, I'm told, accurate).

And if we're using turning off the transponder as evidence of their having had in-depth training, bear in mind that only one of the four flights (the AA 757 that crashed into the Pentagon) seems to have done so. Plus, turning off the transponder isn't hard -- all you need is to think to do it, and know what it looks like.

[Mister Geezer]

I do have to admit that a good level of Stick and Rudder skill would of been required on jets if not on type.

However new desktop sims have copycat FMC, EFIS, EICAS and MCP etc etc. You would be surprised just how much someone with basic flying experience would learn from such a package. These computer facilities would without doubt prove to be a significant learning aid in getting to grips with the basics (and potentially more!) on the FMC, Autopilot, and general Systems.

On the other hand if you take into account the significant planning that would of been spent during the lead up to the horrific event. I would think that any serious terrorism organisation would try and ensure that the odds were not stacked against them in pulling off such a stunt by getting people trained up or getting people who were qualified.

I also feel that even though they apparently only had knives, if they were pilots or had done their homework then they would of known where to locate the Fire Axe and Crowbar etc etc. Those emergency items would be lethal in the wrong hands!

MG

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Mister Geezer ]

[RRAAMJET]

My humble opinion, as one who has been very closely affected by this, is that you may find some evidence among the ranks of a certain Afg**n airline named like a European space rocket (protecting Danny's site, I'll not actually name it).

The UAL 767 seemed to be flying at an extremely high speed, and that takes some skill. You cannot reproduce the change in pitch and feel forces on a 75/76 on a desktop, or in a Cessna. Out of trim, the 757 in particular is a load.

I'm livid. I feel like it's time to deliver some spare pleutonium, but I'll let the Government take it's course. Just because some other peoples' cultures are basically disfunctional, why vent your fury on innocents? :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Speedbird435]

In The Latest CNN Headlines here in the US, two Brothers are suspected in the crash. One of which was either a student or instructor at the Piper school in Vero Beach Florida (check out www.cnn.com) (http://www.cnn.com)) Vero Beach was evacuated to search the house, and neighbors were interogated saying that the "arabic" pilot and a female had moved out a few days before. Moreover, a gentleman called police the day of the crash after getting into a fight with four "arabic" looking men at the Boston Logan Airport regarding a parking space. Inside the car(Nissan Altima - a possible rental) a flight trainng manual in arabic was found along with UAE passports and some other items.

[before landing check list]

Just wanted to say hello and I am well from Pope AFB, NC. I was doing Guard duty(VT) when this terrible tragedy occured. As you know upon this happening all non emergency flights (including ours)have been cancelled. I am here at base ops waiting for release(12Sept1144). I urge all of you to keep a even head on your shoulders, do all you can to support the relief effort(give blood, send food and blankets via Red Cross, Etc) When I return to Vt I will be volunteering my services in NYC to whomever will have me(Expired EMT) for several days.My cell # is 979 574 5987. Anyway, keep good common sense as a priority, and god bless


J

[Huck]

I have flown the DCA visual many times, and the White House is not visible at all from that direction - not compared to the mall, the Capitol, Wash. Monument, etc.

He probably was too high on the first pass, was right over the target before he saw it, made a "fighter type" turn to come around for another try, exceeded 45 deg or so of bank and stalled it. Anyone who has done steep turns in a heavy sim can confirm that you get the shaker a whole lot quicker than you might think. The impact on the Pentagon was just dumb luck.

On another note - religion has at times gone perverted and killed people, but secular humanism has a much higher body count, from the Third Riech to the killing fields....

[McGinty]

There was a thread a couple of months ago (sorry, I cannot find the URL link for it, the search function on PPRuNe won't work cause the server is too busy) in which it was almost unanimously concluded that anyone who was a good performer on Microsoft Flight Simulator etc. but who was not a trained pilot would not be able to land a modern airliner.

The kinds of manoeuvres that these planes went through indicates something beyond amateurism in my opinion. The flight paths of the high-jacked planes, and the fact that all three of the successfully high-jacked planes precisely hit their targets leads me to believe that all of the teams of high-jackers contained one of more pilots with the following alternative backgrounds:
1. extensive 757/767 type simulator training on top of basic flight training.
2. civilian aviation training and operations, probably with 757/767 experience;
or, most scary of all
3. military aviation training.

The whole level of sophistication of this horrifically successful operation suggests something beyond a bunch of simple religious zealots practicing flying on their laptop computers out in a guerilla training camp in a remote part of Afghanistan.

[helidrvr]

Surely the Transponder and FMC changes could have been made by the flight crew in the "good faith" belief that they were dealing with a "standard" highjack scenario.

Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?

[helidrvr]

Surely the Transponder and FMC changes could have been made by the flight crew in the "good faith" belief that they were dealing with a "standard" highjack scenario.

Could the "expert" set up of the wing angle on final to get 5 floors not just as easily have been the result of not so expert flying coupled with some "luck"?

Too much guess work - let's all wait for the FDR and CVR analyses before speculating any more.

[BmPilot21]

This operation was obviously planned for months, probably years, cost huge amounts of money and held enormous risk. You don't then go and stick four idiots on the plane who are good at MS FltSim! They probably weren't airline pilots, more likely extremists with either some ex-military experience, or maybe they were put through a flying school with some time (type rating?) on 757/767.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all four aircraft were the same (flight deck). Pity United didn't stick an Airbus or something on that morning - that would have surprised them! It's quite possible that they could have done all their flight training in the US - there must be 757 sim in Florida for hire.

Just imagine it - "so, we've got five minutes left at the end of the session, anything you guys wanna do?" "Can we try crashing into the side of the world trade centre?" "er, I guess"

Chilling.

[tired]

Agree with spagiola on this one - that UA 767 looks like it overcooked the turn into the WTC and only just avoided missing the tower altogether.

I'm sure these bastards had had some flying experience on 757/767 sims at least - the attack seems to have been too well planned to leave something like that to chance - but I don't think they'd have had to be experienced pro pilots or anything. After all, they weren't concerned with returning the aircraft safely to the runway, the bastards.....

[TowerDog]

BmPilot21:

Yes, you are right, there is a B-767 simulator for hire in Florida: At the Pan-Am Flight Academy in Miami.

It is open to anybody wanting to pay the hourly fee.

I spent 5 days in that box myself this summer.

It is a pretty old and run-down simulator, but plenty good enough for learning how to disconnect the A/P and the A/T.

The visual, although old and "night only" does include landmarks and tall buildings, such as the WTC.

(Yes, I know, Pan-Am never had the B-757/B767. The simulator was bought in recent years from South American and shipped to MIA and installed there for contract training.)

Perhaps in the future simulator customers would be required to obtain a security clearance?

[Smoketrails]

And they must of 'called' on 'Allah' for the skies to be blue?! Was it luck, did they know that it was clear over New York, how did they know and so on.....?!

It was very well planned!

RIP

[BayAreaLondoner]

The US AOPA website has an interesting animation courtesy of FlightExplorer that shows the flight paths of the aircraft involved. Go to http://www.aopa.org/ to see it.

I'm curious as to whether it is possible to say, by looking at these tracks, when the aircraft diverted from their "normal" route of flight? That would presumably indicate when the hijackers took over, but not necessarily when the physically took the controls of the aircraft.

[Unusual Attitude]

I don't agree with the "expert slipping manoeuvre" statement with regard to the second aircraft that hit the WTC.

As you can clearly see from the head-on footage there is a strong crosswind blowing form the aircraft's left to right, this is obvious from the smoke of the first tower.
It looks to me that whoever was flying the aircraft was simply aiming at the tower and not accounting for the drift which would have been obvious from the smoke.
He probably then only realised as he got closer and had to bank the aircraft radically into wind to hit the tower.

If he was even a PPL the chances are that he would have been so mentally overloaded in just flying the aircraft that he probably failed to pick up on the smoke as a clue to the strong drift and didn't notice it until the last minute.

No matter what the case was he unfortunately hit his target with the resulting destruction.

God bless the poor souls who perished in this appalling attack.

[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Unusual Attitude ]

[OneWorld22]

The Attorney General, John Ashcroft, has said he believes that the hi-jackers were trained in the United States and they are focusing on Vero Beach, Florida. The authorities already say they know who these people are/were.

The connection with Logan is interesting, as there is a known Bin-Laden terroist "cell" in Boston.

[Flight Safety]

Just some observations regarding the level of detail and planning that went into this attack. I'm posting again a link posted earlier in the thread for reference, that contains the flight tracks and time details for each flight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/graphics/hijack091101.htm

1. All 4 aircraft involved shared the same type rating (757/767 - as many have pointed out). This would make organization of this attack much easier by possibly allowing some of the suicide pilots with training to train others. All pilots would have been working with the same systems, and all would be on the same "page". This would also require the "penetration" of only one flight school for sim training or other training.

2. All flights originated on the east coast, bound for west coast destinations. Since all "targets" were east coast targets, that means all aircraft were fully loaded with fuel for their transcontinental flights, and arrived at their targets with substantial fuel loads, thus making the aircraft better bombs. All 4 flights also took off within 12 minutes of each other (see the link).

3. Each aircraft seems to have been "assigned" to its particular target based on that aircraft's size and fuel load. As we know, two 757s and two 767s were involved. Both 767s were "assigned" to the World Trade Center Towers, each was in the air for about an hour (more or less) before impacting the buildings, thus arriving at their targets with large (and comparable) fuel loads. The 767s were chosen for the WTC towers I believe because they were the largest structures attacked, and had the best chance of bringing the towers down.

While the Pentagon is a very large building, I don't think it's realistic (if I can use that word while discribing an unworldy scenerio) to take out the entire building in a single plane crash. That's why I think a 757 was chosen for that building.

4. The time coordination for all flights was very well planned. Both 767s (AA-11 and United-175) departed BOS Logan within a minute of each other, both bound for LAX. The flight paths followed by each aircraft however were very different. I think this was designed partly to confuse the ATC centers and the FAA. Maybe someone can confirm if the flight paths followed, actually caused the aircraft to be handled by different ATC centers. Partly this also allowed the aircraft to arrive at the WTC towers about 20 minutes apart, thus allowing the smoke to clear enough from the first impact to allow success with the second impact.

The timing of the impact with the Pentagon occurred 35 minutes after the second impact at the WTC. Did they plan for the Pentagon to be full of military personel responding to the WTC impacts, by the time of this attack? Was the initial flight path of AA-77 towards the White House a possible diversion to prevent advanced notice and possible evacuation of the Pentagon? I can't think of any other reason for the fighter like hard course change into the Pentagon.

The last aircraft, United-93 was on a direct flight path to Washington D.C. from its course change at Cleveland, when it went down in Penn. It crashed at 10:10, maybe about half an hour from D.C. This aircraft would have arrived in D.C. with the lightest fuel load of all the attack aircraft. I think that this aircraft might have been "assigned" to the White House, as it would have been the smallest structure of those attacked, and maybe the terrorists thought a 757 with a lighter fuel load would have been enough for this building. Maybe the timing of its impact with the White House roughly an hour after the attack on the Pentagon, was designed to catch government personnel rallying at the White House after the Pentagon attack. I don't know, that's just a guess.

5. Finally, it would take some pretty good flying to perform all of this, with good navigation, some knowledge of ATC procedures, hand flying into the target buildings, and controlling the time of arrival at the targets. The pilot Tim Timmerman who saw the attack at the Pentagon, said that aircraft came in low and impacted the parking lot just in front of the Pentagon wall, dissipating some of its energy. He said the wings separated forward, the cockpit section broke off, and the whole mass plowed into the side of the building. The aircraft apparently struck some light poles on its low approach into the Pentagon.

That low approach (under the radar) and 270 degree high banked turn suggests to me someone with a military aviation background may have been flying AA-77, but I could be wrong. It's also possible that since United-93 was the last of these 4 aircraft remaining in the air, that news of what happened at the WTC and the Pentagon may have reached some of the passengers (via cell phones or other means). If they knew what was happening, then someone on board may have taken action to stop this flight, since they were fully aware that they were being hijacked.

God, what an awful thing. Trying to work out some the details is just my way of dealing with something like this. My thoughts and prayers have gone out to all who are involved. May God bless my nation at this terrible time.

[OldBonaMate]

There seems to be plenty of evidence that these atrocities were very well planned, so it also seems to me to be a reasonable assumption that the pilots were trained and thus probably type rated on the 75/76.

The profession of airline pilot is not exempt from extremism.

September 11, 2001 saw the world as we knew it change for ever.

[Paterbrat]

Arrived in Athens just after the Saudi 744 diverted due bomb scare and was then held on ground by CAA decree on movements, went into terminal to try and sort it out only to see the most horrifying sights on the TV everyone was clustered around.
It has been a profoundly shocking experience, it was an act that will have reverberations that will effect every single one of us in some way or another for the worse.
It was a knock on the door of Armageddon by the forces of chaos and destruction. The nihilists who care nothing for innocent lives have used our profession to create mass murder and create havoc.
God rest the souls of those who died, our deepest sympathy to America and hopefully the mobilisation of all who might in any way help track down anyone who might have assisted or taken part in any part of the horrendous act we have all witnessed

[vought]

CNN in the U.S. is now saying that the pilots housed in Florida who are thought to have flown the jets into the WTC towers and Pentagon had previous Saudi addresses, and that they were in fact either Saudi air pilots or trained by Saudi air. They had addresses in Jeddah.

This information is HIGHLY speculative.

Does anyone care to venture a guess as to the speed at impact at the WTC? It looked to be extremely high - certainly over 400 knots. The audio from eyewitness tapes sounds like full throttle.

[Huck]

He was firewall throttle. He almost made it completely through - most of his fuel did, exploding on the other side. You can see the core of one engine passing out the far side and streaking away, still producing a little thrust.

[TOP_GUN]

Case 1. I strongly believe that there has NOT been a lack of restraint or indeed common sense in this discussion, it is simply human nature to reason and find out what happened on board the four aircraft, so that we can sympathise with the victims and ensure that every precaution necessary is taken in the future ensuring that these horrific events do not occur again,thus technical speculation must ensue such an event.This is a tradgedy which has affected the world and people need to discuss every aspect of it in order to have a sense of closure and a time to grieve. :(

[mwashi]

I don't believe the hijackers were just sim or MS flight sim trained.

Flying a sim can only help you with flight procedures but not the mind set of flying the real aircraft. I don't believe a PPL or a sim trained pilot could handle such a controlled flight and a suacidal targeting at such a low altitude.

[SaturnV]

The U.S. Attorney General (head of the Department of Justice) announced there were between 3 and 6 hijackers per plane.

One of the suspected hijackers had a disagreement about a restaurant bill in Florida, and said he could easily pay it because 'he was a pilot.'

At least two of the hijackers of the American 767 out of BOS supposedly flew into Logan Airport from Portland Maine (PWM?) on an American Eagle flight. Their luggage was not transfered in time to make the LAX-bound American flight. The luggage is providing useful information. Having arrived on a connecting flight, they likely would not have gone through a security checkpoint at BOS.

[Mr Creosote]

Flight Safety
....this also allowed the aircraft to arrive at the WTC towers about 20 minutes apart, thus allowing the smoke to clear enough from the first impact to allow success with the second impact.


I'm more inclined to think that the delay had more to do with allowing the media time to focus the world's attention on the towers, before destroying the second one on live tv. The media was as much used as a weapon of terror as the aircraft.

[BayAreaLondoner]

This is second hand information, but I was told that Sky News (presumably in the UK) played a video segment demonstrating how one could use Microsoft Flight Simulator 98 to crash into the Pentagon.
Presumably the point they were trying to make was that a person who'd done that would be able to leap into the cockpit of a real aircraft and do the same.
I am in the US and searched their website, but could not find the video. If it is indeed true that Sky ran this piece, then I am absolutely sickened and saddened that any member of the press would stoop to such levels of sensationalism at such a time!!!

[PaperTiger]

FBI names pilots, according to CNN.
2 Saudi, 2 UAE. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/investigation.terrorism/

[smallwing]

This whole situation reminds me of bits out of the movie UNDER SIEGE (denzel washington).

I believe a person with a handheld gps, who has gained previous access to the WTC can record the exact location, thus allowing you to just fly towards that point by the magnetic heading it gives you. Used one before, it is not hard.

Mind you, everything is possible, they must have planned this a long time ago. BUT, let us not raise these killers so highly, as they do not deserve the recognition they are getting now.

Hope they roast 4ever.

[Drop and Stop]

smallwing, I think the movie was 'The Siege' I seem to recall that an FBI building was levelled in NYC, the following witch hunt descended into chaos ..... which was exactly what the terrorists set out to do.

What measures can you put in place as a deterrent against people who don’t even value their own lives?

[Desk Driver]

This taken from foxnews.com


A Venice, Fla., man said FBI agents told him that two men who stayed in his home in July 2000 while training at a local flight school were the hijackers. Charlie Voss said the agents identified the men as Mohamed Atta and one known as Marwan.

FBI agents "informed me that there were two individuals that were students at Huffman Aviation, my employer, and FBI told me they were involved in yesterday's tragedy," Voss said.

Voss said he accepted the two men as house guests as a favor to the company.

[Flight Safety]

Mr Creosote, I think you're right. I'm sure the terrorists had it in mind to terrorize the whole nation, and the world. After all, a fairly large number of video cameras did record the impact of the second aircraft, and those videos have shaken us all.

[Warthog 1]

Don't buy off on the flight simulators/MS software theories. I'm a former fighter pilot and, as such, don't have a whole lot of time in auto pilot. Although I'm not au fait with 757/767 characteristics,there's one thing I know for sure--it ain't easy to drive an airplane (ANY airplane) into a target (Pentagon) in a shallow dive with continuously changing airspeed and AOA perameters--the game enthusiast probably would have faced that scenario, but the pro (or well-trained amateur) would have the skill to control a/s and AOA significantly simplifying the problem. A level approach against the WTC would be easier, but still, in my humble opinion, beyond the capabilities of a guy with very little no-**** airplane driving experience.

When the guys go out to get even, I sure wish I could join 'em.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Sorry to add comments such as this, but,

If as has been said earlier in this thread, that the scumbags who flew the birds into the building have had some sort of "Pro" help such as an existing Big Bird pilot, then it stands nearly to reason that the training pilot would be from the Mid/Far East, therefore how safe is it now to allow these sorts of area's/Countries to send their A/C to the USA and Europe, with this sort of Crazy mindset that now seems to prevail in these area's?
Who would risk one full of pax going into some other serious target, say in a few weeks time!

[Low_and_Slow]

One of the suspected hijackers had a disagreement about a restaurant bill in Florida, and said he could easily pay it because 'he was a pilot.'


From what I read it was a bill stemming from the vodka he was drinking and the rum his friend was drinking. Obviously not particularly devout moslems.....


-me (ex New Yorker)


NB. I've often noticed that in those countries where cockpit access is not restricted (ie outside the US) a pilot's certificate goes a long way in getting the people up front to give a good look. It seems that at least some of the terrorists held commercial multiengine certs. Just another reminder that just because the person visiting the flight deck is a pilot, it doesn't mean that they intend you no harm.......

[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]

[Huck]

The Koran forbids suicide, as well.

[Paterbrat]

Have just been on a web sight that has published some of the pieces of evidence which are telling indicators of the possibility of Ousam Bi Ladin's involvement, either wholly or in part. It includes the translation of his Declaration of War on the USA which makes for pretty grim reading.
He is an individual who has been decribed by his own family members as being devout to the point of extremeism even as a child. He had to be forcibley restrained by them from joining in the fanatics who captured the Mosque in Mecca in the mid seventies. He has since been publicaly renounced by the majority of his family who took out the front page of the National newspaper to do so.
He had been considered a hero during the Muhajedin revolt against the Russians and even recieved help and training from the CIA, however became a lose cannon when he returned to the Kingdom. He was exiled and now is bent on creating a 'Holy War' between Muslim and Christian. He has followers from many countries and has huge financial resources. He uses the Muslim religion and has twisted it to suit his ends and his views. He quotes it all the time and professes that to follow him is to follow the 'true way'.
How many times throughout history have we seen men use and pervert religion for their own terrible ends. He sows terror and discord and his followers revere him. He has massive funds at his disposal and is a highly sophisticated and well educated man. He takes his recruits from the poor who have little, and lives very simply among them which endears him to them, however he also appeals to the zealots and extremists, rich or poor.
He sees America as being the cause of many of the regions ills and has convinced many of his followers that to die in the name of their religion will earn them a place beside Allah.
There has been no shortage of planning and no shortage of funds or training including pilot training for the volounteers who would be his 'Knights' of vengence. There are extremists who have plenty of heavy jet experience and further training would have been perfecty feasible. He has tried for the twin towers before and failed, he just planned a bit better the next time.
He would like there to be hate and discord, it would suit his purpouse for Americans to harass and to blame all Muslims. There is no doubt that there are segments of the Muslim world that applauded the act but there are also massive numbers who are truly appalled at what has been done.
It has been heartening to see the almost calm and stoic reaction,The way in which the people of the USA have and are coping with these terrible events, there is also no mistaking the resolve of the American people, there is a sense of an inexorable power gathering itself for a War to root out and hunt down and destroy those who are in any way connected with this appalling vicious and terrible act. Much as the Japanese Admiral feared that a great giant had been woken after Pearl Harbour.
May it be well guided, and may it find and aprehend or destroy every one who is even remotely connected to that heinous act with as little collateral as is possible.
This will effect every single one of us, it already has, and the future looks as though there may be some pretty grim times ahead when the world in general finaly decides to do something about the various elements throughout the world who have believed for so long in their ability to force events by hidden acts of violence and terror. They may find themselves on the end of terror as they are hunted down and brought to justice, may it be soon

[ 14 September 2001: Message edited by: Paterbrat ]

[stagger]

This from CNN...

We would like to correct a report that appeared on CNN. Based on information from multiple law enforcement sources, CNN reported that Adnan Bukhari and a brother, Ameer, of Vero Beach, Florida, were suspected to be two of the pilots who crashed planes into the World Trade Center. CNN learned Thursday that Adnan Bukhari is still in Florida, where he was questioned Wednesday by the FBI. We are sorry for the misinformation. Through his attorney, Bukhari says he is not connected at all with this, that he is helping authorities, and that any documents they found with his name means his identity was stolen. He says Ameer Bukhari, who he says is not his brother, died in a small plane crash last year. Additionally, Bukhari's attorney informs CNN that Bukhari passed an FBI-administered lie detector test.

[SaturnV]

From today's Boston Globe:

By Kevin Cullen and Matthew Brelis, Globe Staff, 9/13/2001

Three men who were trained as pilots have emerged as the central figures in the hijacking of two Boston-to-Los Angeles flights that were deliberately crashed into the World Trade Center towers.

The trio are among a dozen men with Arabic surnames who were the focus yesterday of the massive investigation here trying to determine who commandeered the two Boeing
767s that formed half of the biggest terrorist attack ever against Americans.

Sources close to the investigation said that investigators had recovered from a car
rented by a suspected hijacker a so-called ''ramp pass,'' which gives the holder access to restricted areas at Logan Airport. Evidence also suggests the rental car was used to case the airport during the week leading up to the attack.

As investigators retraced the steps of the men, using an extensive list of Visa credit
card receipts, evidence pointing to the plot having its roots in the Middle East was piling up.

The names of the 12 men with Arabic surnames were not on a passenger list made public yesterday by American Airlines and United Air Lines, whose planes were hijacked Tuesday morning. But The Boston Globe obtained the complete list, and law
enforcement sources confirmed that they were focusing on up to a dozen of the Arabic men as they piece together how the two Boston flights were hijacked.

One of the suspects, Mohamed Atta, 33, is a Saudi national who trained as an airline
pilot. The other two, Waleed Alshehri and Marwan Alshehri, are believed to be brothers
from the United Arab Emirates, and are also trained to fly heavy commercial aircraft like the ones that were commandeered and flown into the World Trade Center towers in New York.

Both Atta, who attended a flight school in Florida last year, and Waleed Alshehri
received training that would have made them capable of flying American Airlines Flight
11 into the first of the two towers that later collapsed, killing what officials assume will be thousands of office workers and hundreds of their would-be rescuers.

Marwan Alshehri, who attended flight school with Atta, was capable of flying United Air
Lines Flight 175 into one of the towers, investigators believe.

Atta caught Flight 11 off a connecting flight from Portland, Maine. Two bags with Atta's name tags were on the Portland flight, but did not get transferred in time to be loaded on the Los Angeles-bound flight that left Logan Airport at 7:59 a.m., about 45 minutes before it smashed into the World Trade Center tower.

Acccording to the manifest, Atta was assigned seat 8D in business class on Flight 11, directly across the aisle from Hollywood producer David Angell and his wife, Lynn, who were in seats 8A and 8B respectively. Seated next to Atta in seat 8G was Abdul
Alomari. The two remaining seats in Row 8, H and J, were unassigned.

The passenger list for Flight 175 shows that Marwan Alshehri got on the plane that left
Boston and slammed into one of the Manhattan skyscrapers 15 minutes after Flight 11.

A Florida man, Charles Voss, yesterday said that Atta and a man whom he knew only as Marwan had stayed at his home last year while they obtained flight training at a
Florida flight school. Voss, who used to work at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., told the Associated Press that the FBI agents who interviewed him Tuesday told him that the two men who stayed at his home were involved in the hijackings. Azzan Ali, a
student at Huffman Aviation, said that Marwan Alshehri had stayed with Voss.

Voss said the FBI told him that the two men who had stayed with him last year had been traced to a car found at Logan Airport. Law enforcement sources told the Globe that authorities had recovered from the car a a
ramp pass issued by the Massachusetts Port Authority.

Waleed Alshehri also held a commercial pilot's license and was rated to fly large, multi-engine aircraft.

On Tuesday night, Massachusetts State Police detectives and the FBI seized a Mitsubishi sedan that a Hampden County law enforcement
official said one of the suspected hijackers rented in Springfield and that was parked in a Logan Airport parking lot. When they reviewed videotape of the parking lot's surveillance camera, investigators found
that the car had entered the lot up to five times between last Wednesday and Tuesday, according to sources. Those sources said the constant presence of the car over the last week suggested that the terrorists had
scouted the airport, or performed dry runs for the daring attack.

Sources familiar with the investigation said the ramp pass, found in the Mitsubishi sedan, gives holders access to restricted parts of the airport.

Sources said at least five one-way tickets for the United flight and at least two similar tickets for the American flight were purchased at the last minute by suspected hijackers. The sources said at least four of the tickets were purchased with the same Visa card.

One state official who spoke on condition of anonymity expressed deep regret that airline officials did not react more cautiously regarding the ticket purchases.

''That is something that should jump out at you,'' said the state official. ''One-way ticket, purchased by Arabic gentlemen; that should have been red-flagged.''

One source said the car had been parked at least ''four to five'' times at Logan since Sept. 5.

Meanwhile, authorities in Florida were investigating the possibility that two suspected terrorists, including Waleed Alshehri, prepared for the attacks on New York and Washington while at Embry-Riddle Aeronautics University in Daytona Beach - one as a student and one while working as
an instructor.

In a statement yesterday, university officials said they are cooperating with the FBI and other investigative agencies and would provide no further information.

But the Globe found Waleed Alshehri's name on a list of 1997 Embry graduates. The FBI Tuesday evening searched a Daytona Beach
apartment where Alshehri lived during the time he is believed to have attended Embry.

The Globe reported yesterday that inside the suitcase belonging to Atta, investigators found a Saudi passport, an international driver's license, a videotape on how to fly a Boeing 757 and 747, and ''some kind of
religious cassette tape.'' Atta has previously held an Egyptian driver's
license.

State Police and the FBI spent much of yesterday searching a unit of the Park Inn off Route 9 in Chestnut Hill, where at least two of the hijackers were believed to have stayed the night before the attack. At noon, more than a dozen law enforcement vehicles parked behind the hotel, and officers, some clad in bullet-proof vests and bearing shields, assembled on the third floor of the inn.

The unit of the inn, formerly the Susse Chalet, is under renovation and only a few rooms were occupied, according to one of its managers.

FBI investigators spent about 15 hours in Room 432 of the inn yesterday, painstakingly analyzing and removing evidence, including a recliner as well as several boxes and bags of material. The operation started at 6
a.m., according to other guests at the inn, who returned last night to find they were being moved to other buildings in the complex.

All the guests were moved out of the building except Michael Arnold, of Nantucket, who was staying in the room next to 432 and was allowed to go in and shave last evening.

Arnold had noticed the two men staying in the room next to his, where he said the FBI told him they found a flight schedule and a train schedule. But he said he had not noticed anything unusual about the men.

[Willit Run]

Certainly most of us have had a little extra time in the box to roll and loop them! Hell, most of us have even flown through a control tower or buzzed a field in the Sim. All this takes is money and a private enterprise willing to take your money in exchange for sim training. Sim training is not regulated by the gov't! Al, it takes is money!

[Cyclic Hotline]

Thursday September 13 3:23 PM EST

FBI Ignored French Warning on Extremist-Radio

PARIS (Reuters) - The FBI arrested an Islamic militant in Boston last month and received French intelligence reports linking him to Osama bin Laden but apparently did not act on them, a French radio station said Thursday.


Europe 1 radio reported that U.S. police had arrested a man with dual French and Algerian nationality who had several passports, technical information on Boeing aircraft and flight manuals. The man had been taking flying lessons, it added.


Asked for information by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, French security services provided a dossier clearly identifying him as an Islamic militant working with Saudi-born guerrilla leader bin Laden.


"He has a pedigree as long as your arm, an investigator said," the radio reported. "He belongs to the Pakistani-Afghan network that trains Osama bin Laden's soldiers."


French officials could not confirm the full content of the Europe 1 report but a judicial source said the United States had now requested information on the militant.


The source added that French authorities had opened a preliminary investigation to establish whether the terror attacks in the United States merited judicial moves in France. The source could give no further details.


Bin Laden, who is Afghan-based, is the suspected mastermind behind Tuesday's devastating plane attacks on New York and Washington. Two of the four commercial airliners hijacked in the suicide operation took off from Boston.


Many Algerian militants fought against Soviet troops in Afghanistan in the 1980s and have since mounted guerrilla attacks in Algeria, France and other countries, intelligence sources say.


The radio said the man, who is in jail but has refused to cooperate with investigators, was a "soldier without borders" who had made several trips to potential hotspots around the world in recent months.


"He has the profile of someone who could prepare or lead terrorist operations," it said.


"This information was transmitted by French security services to the FBI but apparently got lost in the enormous American police machinery," it added.


"The inquiry that might have been able to avoid everything was not started. There was no special alert transmitted to airport authorities in the U.S.," it concluded.

[TheDrop]

Regarding hitting the Pentagon instead of the White House:

If they couldn't find the white house, they might have spotted Pentagon by chance - most of everyone in the world know what the Pentagon looks like, and I am sure that whoever did this does not have many friends in that building. THe special shape of that building should be easy to spot from far away, right ?

[Zeitgebers]

These terrorists were trained in the US. The guys who trained them must be asking themselves over and over 'Is there anything I could have noticed about them?' It's not your fault guys.
In this ridiculous politically correct (western)world we live in I can imagine what would have happened if something had been said. In my country (UK) you would more likely find yourself on a charge of racism for voicing such concerns.
Things have got to change.
God Bless all affected by this tragedy.

[ 15 September 2001: Message edited by: Zeitgebers ]

[aardie]

Zeitgebers

In this ridiculous politically correct (western)world we live in I can imagine what would have happened if something had been said. In my country (UK) you would more likely find yourself on a charge of racism for voicing such concerns.
Things have got to change.
_____________________________________

I think your comments may be inappropriate to say the least. The implication is that anyone of middle eatern origin or coming from a muslim background, attempting to undergo aviation training should be considered as both a potential fanatic and therefore a terrorist. I'm sorry but I find such an attitude both unhelpful and distasteful.

No race or religion is sheltered from the fact that certain individuals that belong to it might ultimately be responsible for committing acts of unspeakable horror such of those we have seen this week. This does not mean that these individuals are necessarily typical or representative of the race or religion to which they belong.

By its very nature, suggesting that people who are not caucausian in origin should automatically be considered as potential terrorists is both non-sensical and potentailly racist. Where do you draw the line? For instance, the USA already has a history of terrorist acts which have been conducted by its own citizens, and a number of these claim to be Christian. Perhaps all those US citizens who have southern accents and observe a strict christian lifestyle should accoringly be considered with suspicion if they attempt to embark on a career in aviation.

I think the real issue is that vetting and security should be tightened accross the board to prevent individuals who may wish to recieve aviation training in order to ultimately utlise it in terrorist acts from doing so - what ever their background