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Bull at a Gate
15th Nov 2017, 05:21
Is anyone able to confirm that someone refused to switch his tablet to flight mode on QF 2133 (Canberra to Melbourne) today thereby causing a return to the gate?

If it's true - what is wrong with these people? Flight time just over an hour yet he feels the needs to be online. So many people these days believe that the world revolves around them!

thorn bird
15th Nov 2017, 05:57
Why the fuss? the pilots are sitting up there with theirs on.

C441
15th Nov 2017, 06:14
I am a commuter between Brisbane and Melbourne. In the last 6 months I have noticed a trend for passengers to simply ignore the requests of crew to "switch devices to flight mode" so much so that on four occasions in the last couple of months passengers have initiated or received phone calls on taxi out or, on two occasions, on the take off roll. In each case the crew ignored it despite it being quite obvious who was infringing the policy.

I'm sure it's the same on all carriers, but I find it frustrating that an announcement is made, the majority of passengers ignore it and no-one thinks that it may be necessary to either allow the use of these devices or actually make some effort to ensure compliance with a regulatory requirement.

Lookleft
15th Nov 2017, 06:28
Why the fuss? the pilots are sitting up there with theirs on.

Last item in the before start checklist before getting the clearance to pushback "PEDs to flight mode". Thats in the airline I work for anyway.

Ken Borough
15th Nov 2017, 06:32
Why the fuss? the pilots are sitting up there with theirs on.

There are eejits everywhere! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Lookleft
15th Nov 2017, 06:34
I thought Airnorth was the only one flying Ejets now?

UnderneathTheRadar
15th Nov 2017, 06:38
I've often wondered why CASA don't send FOIs onboard and prosecute a few who don't switch off/flight mode. Would soon get the message across via the media..

27/09
15th Nov 2017, 07:26
I've often wondered why CASA don't send FOIs onboard and prosecute a few who don't switch off/flight mode. Would soon get the message across via the media..

They'd probably prosecute the crew for not enforcing the use of Flight Mode.

TWT
15th Nov 2017, 07:43
someone refused to switch his tablet to flight mode on QF 2133 (Canberra to Melbourne) today

Article mentions 'Friday night' without specifying which Friday night.

https://www.3aw.com.au/selfish-ceo-forces-massive-flight-delay/

das Uber Soldat
15th Nov 2017, 08:36
Last item in the before start checklist before getting the clearance to pushback "PEDs to flight mode". Thats in the airline I work for anyway.
And about as regularly obeyed as the 'do not remove headsets until top of climb' regulation from my experience. I recall a certain checky getting a phone call around 500 ft on approach a while ago... :}

Octane
15th Nov 2017, 20:08
I was on an Air India (never again) flight once. 2 men were pacing up and down the aisle during the take off using their phones despite repeated requests to sit down by the FA's. There seems to be something in the Indian culture where men will not take instructions from women...

umop apisdn
16th Nov 2017, 04:26
What is the regulation regarding flight mode?

Pearly White
16th Nov 2017, 07:33
What is the regulation regarding flight mode?
From the CASA website: https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/standard-page/passenger-safety-information


Portable electronic devices

Electronic devices

The following information will help to ensure your safety when using electronic devices on the aircraft:


Check with your airline to see if and when you can use your electronic device - policies vary by airline
Charge your device before you fly
Follow the instructions by crew and on-board procedures. The airline has the final say about the type and use of electronic devices allowed on board
There may also be restrictions on the use of electronic devices on the tarmac
Always follow crew instructions and immediately turn off your device if asked
You cannot use mobile phones for voice communications or for mobile telephone functions in-flight
Devices must remain in flight mode throughout the flight
You may use the WiFi connection on your device if the plane has an installed WiFi system and the airline allows its use
Devices weighing more than 1kg such as standard laptops, must be stowed under seats or in the overhead lockers during take-off and landing and as directed by crew to prevent injuries in the event of turbulence or an accident
Smaller hand held devices that weigh less than 1kg must also be secured for takeoff, landing and when advised by crew, but airline policy may allow the device to be secured in the seat pocket, garment pocket or in your hands
If you lose your phone in flight do not move the seat and contact a crew member immediately
Passengers who do not comply with instructions are putting your safety at risk. If you notice unlawful activities you can raise it with the cabin crew and your concerns will be taken seriously.
Make Safety Your First Priority.


Put down electronic devices, books and newspapers and listen to the safety briefing.

umop apisdn
16th Nov 2017, 15:23
I was wondering more about an actual reg.

I know that is it is reg if it is in the Ops Manual, but I never remembered seeing a standalone one.

601
16th Nov 2017, 21:49
There seems to be something in the Indian culture where men will not take instructions from women...

And a few other cultures.

swh
17th Nov 2017, 00:17
I was wondering more about an actual reg.

I know that is it is reg if it is in the Ops Manual, but I never remembered seeing a standalone one.

It would be an offense under part 2, division 3 of the Crimes (Aviation) Act 1991 with maximum penalty of 10-20 years depending on the actual charge. It would not be CASA, it would be the AFP.

That is the Australian law enacting the Tokyo Convention and another treaty, it also gives the power to captain to arrest people on flights in Australia, i.e. if someone failed to turn off a PED, return to their seat, smoking onboard etc, the captain could arrest the person and the the passenger would most likely face a court.

Ken Borough
17th Nov 2017, 00:38
Is there here a double-standard? Compare and contrast: a CEO refuses to obey the lawful direction of a crew member by refusing to comply with the law WRT his mobile phone. Aircraft returns to the gate, pax apparently off-loaded and then silence as to whether police called, arrest made, charges laid, pax banned or sanctioned by carrier etc etc. On the other hand a bogan gets drunk, or partially drunk, on an aircraft and misbehaves. Police are called, pax is off-loaded, arrested, charged, convicted and fined etc etc.

To me, the CEO's behaviour is far worse than that of the drunk bogan on a number of grounds yet his treatment would appear to be much more lenient. Why so? Discuss.

AEROMEDIC
17th Nov 2017, 09:11
Possibly that the probability of violence on board is higher with the bogan than the CEO. Both would be equally capable, but I'd be betting on the drunk bogan to start trouble first.
I agree that the line between the two is somewhat blurred.

Bula
17th Nov 2017, 09:50
SWH, surpringly the relevant parts of the Tokyo convention must be part of the relevant state and territory crimes act. How the AFP fit into that, I have no idea

Chronic Snoozer
17th Nov 2017, 11:49
Surely a quick-thinking PA announcement would have solved the problem causing minimal delay.

"Folks, you may have noticed us taxiing back to the terminal. Its all thanks to the selfish ignoramus in seat 3A who is refusing to switch his personal electronic device to flight mode. You might like to share your opinion with him as his refusal to follow CASA regulations will cause you all personally at least a 20 min delay at your destination. Whilst we would never condone physical assault, common f@rkin courtesy IS our number one priority."

Quickly followed by "Thank you for your prompt cooperation, would seat rows 4 to 20 please return to their seats, ensure their seatbelts are fastened, and pick up any errant PED parts on the way."

swh
17th Nov 2017, 18:06
SWH, surpringly the relevant parts of the Tokyo convention must be part of the relevant state and territory crimes act. How the AFP fit into that, I have no idea

The states and territories are not signatures to the convention, the act I listed (there is a similar one for international operations to/from Australia) are commonwealth acts. The head of power comes from the trade provisions between states in the constitution.

There well maybe additional legislation for intrastate flights, I am just unfamiliar with it.

Moneymoneymoneymoney
18th Nov 2017, 01:46
I'm sure it's the same on all carriers, but I find it frustrating that an announcement is made, the majority of passengers ignore it and no-one thinks that it may be necessary to either allow the use of these devices or actually make some effort to ensure compliance with a regulatory requirement.

People hate regulations that take years to catch up with reality. Electronic devices OFF flight mode, are NIL hazard to any passenger aircraft in operation in 2017.

Capt Fathom
18th Nov 2017, 01:52
Electronic devices OFF flight mode, are NIL hazard to any passenger aircraft in operation in 2017
Maybe one or two. What about 500 all on at once?

IsDon
18th Nov 2017, 02:02
A type I once flew not so long ago had a spate of spurious fire warnings. Lots of dead puppy dogs and pussy cats as a result of the checklist item to gas them with halon.

It turned out mobile phones left on and packed in checked in luggage was the culprit.

So yes, they can have an effect, and in systems you wouldn’t think they would.

I just hate the arrogance of these plonkers that insist they know more about the effect of their mobile phone than the engineers that built their phone, the aeroplane they’re flying in, the airline they’re flying with, and the crew getting their sorry ass from A to B.

I guess they’re experts based on their BA in Art History.

Just do as you’re bloody told. If you don’t like it, don’t fly.

Lookleft
18th Nov 2017, 02:07
People hate regulations that take years to catch up with reality. Electronic devices OFF flight mode, are NIL hazard to any passenger aircraft in operation in 2017.

Thats irrelevant. The crew don't get to pick and choose which regs are relevant to 2017 operations and which ones aren't. I'm fairly certain that the travelling public would not want the pilot's to pick and choose which regs are relevant to 2017 operations and which ones aren't. For instance "I know what I can drink before a flight and still be capable of flying, the 8 hour rule is only for those who can't handle their drink!" or "Whats the big deal if I let my mate into the flightdeck when we're in the air. He's a good bloke he's not going to do anything stupid."

Do you get the picture? Your interpretation of the rules is not going to stop you getting kicked off or arrested if you refuse to follow cabin crew or flight crew instructions. End of story no correspondence will be entered into.:ugh:

Propstop
18th Nov 2017, 02:21
Many years ago in Luanda during the civil war in Angola Air France took the B747 to Gaberone for crew rest and flew back to do the scheduled LAD CDG flight in the evening, therefor crew hours were tight.
The baggage was lined up on the tarmac and boarding passengers had to physically hand their baggage to the loaders to put in the containers.
We were all onboard waiting for departure and the captain said there was a piece of baggage left on the tarmac, could the owner please identify. Nobody was forthcoming so all the baggage was unloaded again and we all had to go back down and go through the procedure again. This time all was identified.
As the doors were closed the captain who was extremely pissed off by now, announced that seat xxx was the cause of the delay. I imagine with a whole lot of pissed off people now glaring at him he was suitable reprimanded. The delay was over 2 hours. I missed my connection home.

mrdeux
18th Nov 2017, 05:48
I vaguely recall everyone having to personally identify their luggage in Bahrain, many years ago. Not all was identified, and it was left behind. I suspect a couple of owners realised at the far end...

C441
18th Nov 2017, 06:07
People hate regulations that take years to catch up with reality. Electronic devices OFF flight mode, are NIL hazard to any passenger aircraft in operation in 2017.

I'm not that keen on the new SID & STAR changes - and I'm on leave at the moment and haven't had the 'pleasure' of using them yet!

From what I can read here though, they don't seem very relevant in 2017. I reckon we should all just ignore them.:ugh:

Watta ya reckon Moneyx4?

Centaurus
18th Nov 2017, 10:44
Surely a quick-thinking PA announcement would have solved the problem causing minimal delay.

"Folks, you may have noticed us taxiing back to the terminal. Its all thanks to the selfish ignoramus in seat 3A who is refusing to switch his personal electronic device to flight mode. You might like to share your opinion with him as his refusal to follow CASA regulations will cause you all personally at least a 20 min delay at your destination. Whilst we would never condone physical assault, common f@rkin courtesy IS our number one priority."

Quickly followed by "Thank you for your prompt cooperation, would seat rows 4 to 20 please return to their seats, ensure their seatbelts are fastened, and pick up any errant PED parts on the way."

Friend of mine who flew the HS 748 from Nandi, Fiji on regional services, sent me this story:

"Back in the bad old days when smoking was permitted except for takeoff and landing I did something similar.

I was Captain on an HS748 on the last evening service from Nadi to Nausori. It was a stormy night, with nice lightning displays clearly visible to the pax. The hostie made the usual PA before takeoff announcing a flight time of 30 minutes. Just prior to top of descent I made the usual PA from the cockpit.

Despite this, a fat Yank lit up his cigar. Five minutes later of course we put the ‘no smoking’ sign on. Fat Yank kicked up a fuss refusing to butt out his stogie, saying something like he had only just lit it.

Hostie reported to me. I got back on the PA, with words to the effect that we would be going into a holding pattern until the American gentleman in 3A either complied, or finished his cigar. A couple of burly but nervous flyer Fijians did the rest".

swh
18th Nov 2017, 23:03
People hate regulations that take years to catch up with reality. Electronic devices OFF flight mode, are NIL hazard to any passenger aircraft in operation in 2017.

That isn’t actually true, there is evidence that personal electronic devices can interfere with aircraft. There is a condition on that, most PEDs when leaving the factory would be safe to use in flight, however over time either by changes in firmware or damage from dropping/water the device may not work as designed. Most people do not know if that is the case, and it would be too expensive for airlines to test devices prior to flight for conformance, so its easier for all involved just to have them stop transmitting.

Captain Nomad
19th Nov 2017, 02:16
Blame Mythbusters. They went and tested one phone in a mock scenario with an old aircraft and told the whole world it was a myth. The number of people who 'think they know better' as a result is considerable...

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
20th Nov 2017, 09:44
There isn't an actual reg. The FAA issues guidelines only and CASA pretty much follows them. It is up to the airline to determine it's own policy for the use of PED's. The onus is on the airline to prove that operating them is safe or otherwise. That's pretty much why they just said turn them off. A few years ago the FAA (and CASA shortly afterwards) advised that PED use could be permitted as long as they were operated in "Flight Mode". If the airline policy is different, or the use contravenes whatever policy the airline has, then that is where the offence is, by failing to follow a direction of the crew. The FCC, not the FAA, in America ban making mobile calls in flight because of the issues it causes with the terrestrial cell network. The same problem probably exists in Australia, but I'm not sure which agency has the blanket power to prohibit the airborne use of mobile phones for telephony, and I don't think such a prohibition exists.
An excerpt from a position paper from the Australian Mobile Telecommunications Association:
In Australia, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority does not have specific
regulations regarding mobile phone use and has left the decision up to the
discretion of the airlines. The onus is placed on the pilot in command or the
operator to ensure that the aircraft is operated safely. Passengers are required to
obey all lawful instruction issued by the pilot in command in accordance with
Civil Aviation Regulations.
CASA's page:
https://www.casa.gov.au/safety-management/standard-page/mobile-phones

TWT
20th Nov 2017, 10:16
From QF 'Conditions of Carriage' :

https://www.qantas.com/travel/airlines/conditions-carriage/global/en#jump11

We may also ask you not to operate any electronic devices including cellular telephones, laptop computers, recorders, radios, CD players, electronic games, laser products or transmitting devices, remote or radio controlled toys that could interfere with the flight. If you fail to comply with our requests, we may retain the device until the end of the flight. Hearing aids and heart pacemakers are permitted

Bull at a Gate
20th Nov 2017, 11:03
What’s so hard about “them’s the rules. If you don’t like them then don’t board the aircraft”?

And what I really want to know is - why hasn’t he been named and shamed?

Counter-rotation
21st Nov 2017, 05:57
There isn't an actual reg.

Heh? I thought it was a requirement to:
"follow all illuminated information signs and crew member instructions"?

Has my airline been lying to every passenger in every preflight safety briefing?
(That question is rhetorical...)

CR.

fruitloop
21st Nov 2017, 07:32
Should be Named and Shamed....