New big German-French Fighter Bomber under development [Archive]

View Full Version : New big German-French Fighter Bomber under development

keesje

14th Nov 2017, 23:54

Apparently the Germans and French started working together to develop a new large stealth fighter bomber. Stealth & range are major drivers.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Kh-LhYE73cM/WgM-yxeYWeI/AAAAAAAADPU/H7lRbTJlQ6cn9dDqwLN5Y0w4TDE17mrngCLcBGAs/s1600/Airbus%2BFighter%2BStealth.jpg

Both the Germans (Airbus Militairy) and French (Dassault) want to be in the lead.:hmm:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0

TWT

15th Nov 2017, 03:39

Let's hope the Germans and the French both use the same Catia software version this time.

Trim Stab

15th Nov 2017, 06:14

Torquelink

15th Nov 2017, 09:07

I think the German Air Force has now stated that they'd like to buy the F35 . .

Aggamemnon

15th Nov 2017, 09:41

Interesting shift in German defence doctrine if they really do want a long-range stealth bomber.

If one were being uncharitable it could be seen as a continuation of German doctrine: securing a large workshare of a big European aerospace project.

ORAC

15th Nov 2017, 10:32

The GAF will use the F-35 to replace the Tornado around 2025-2035. The new fighter will be to replace their Typhoon and the French Rafale arond 2035 onwards.

That leaves the UK to decide what they will use to replace their Typhoons, the planned next generation US fighter or join the Franco-German programme.

The present plan for the next USAF fighter is a long range Penetrator Counter Air designed to escort the B-21 bomber into contested airspace in the Pacific (China) theatre. Which may be unsuitable for the UK - or not available as with the F-22 it will replace.

As history shows,however, cooperation with the French means they want to be prime for the airframe... and the engine.... and the control software.... etc.... etc...

oxenos

15th Nov 2017, 10:36

As history shows,however, cooperation with the French means they want to be prime for the airframe... and the engine.... and the control software.... etc.... etc...

and the spelling

Willard Whyte

15th Nov 2017, 12:41

French (government) hedging their bets against potential 'failure' of BAE/Dassault FCAS (Taranis/nEURON) partnership?

I'm not going to mention the 'B-word'!

unmanned_droid

15th Nov 2017, 16:43

Let's hope the Germans and the French both use the same Catia software version this time.

Nice nice.

I won’t be letting them forget about this anytime soon either!

Icare9

15th Nov 2017, 20:45

Dunno how stealthy the aircraft will be, but the pilot certainly has full stealth mode deployed.... Probably be known as a Dassornier

Haraka

16th Nov 2017, 05:24

All O.K until the French claim 51%........

Buster Hyman

16th Nov 2017, 05:43

All O.K until the French claim 51%........
And call it a 'Bombere"

The B Word

16th Nov 2017, 06:08

Looks like 2 crew and a move away from the moronic single seat concept in recent years. Both the Germans and the French have strong views on the value of 2-seaters for more complex missions.

ORAC

16th Nov 2017, 11:28

Perhaps because it’s main role is as the control platform for multiple combat UAVs. Second pair of hands will probably be necessary.

NutLoose

16th Nov 2017, 11:33

Probably sitting on a bunch of surplus Jaguar undercarriage legs.

Top Bunk Tester

16th Nov 2017, 11:45

Surely they won't need long range to launch against us for having the temerity to leave their wonderful Euro club ;0

BEagle

16th Nov 2017, 12:01

FakePilot

16th Nov 2017, 14:57

If it's controlling drones maybe they mean endurance instead of range?

ORAC

16th Nov 2017, 15:10

The legacy of Cameron's stupid plebiscite is that exchange rates are uncertain - so it would be utter madness to involve BWoS in any such future European fighter-bomber programme. Since we were never in the Euro and government policy has not been to tie the pound to the Euro, I don't believe that to be true.

What will happen to exchange rates over 20 years in the future is not something anyone can estimate - or hedge.

Willard Whyte

16th Nov 2017, 16:30

The legacy of Cameron's stupid plebiscite i...

Fortunately your opinion is worth no more than those of us who despise european economic and political integration.

Royalistflyer

16th Nov 2017, 16:37

In the UK, if one forgets (thankfully) about BAe, the only company with design and construction capability is Bombardier. In the light of the Boeing contretemps, whether the government might not think in terms of setting Bombardier the task (if they were willing to undertake it) of designing our own future attack/bomber. We've done all this in the past, in fact leading the technology of the day. There is fundamentally no reason why we couldn't do it again, and no reason why we couldn't afford it. The only reason that I can think of to prevent this is Bombardier's willingness to take the step of hiring extra design staff and doing some upgrade training of shop floor staff. The electronics factor is major, but again, I believe it is not outside our capabilities. Always provided that a very hard-headed approach was taken by MoD on schedules and budget .... and probably keeping senior service staff out of it after a given point of design. I realise the mere suggestion will cause lots of sucking of teeth and shaking of heads. However I have advised government on a number of high tech projects in the past and I believe that the many hurdles can be jumped. The only pause I have is whether Bombardier would take the leap and could raise the necessary finance (although there is no reason why the government wouldn't foot the R & D bill at least initially or in part).

EAP86

16th Nov 2017, 19:40

OK, I'll bite. Your profile states that you have experience as a banker. Assuming this becomes a Tri-National procurement programme (placed by OCCAR?), who would you expect to underwrite the risks associated with contracting with an industrial partner with very little recent, real world experience of the design, integration and manufacture of a military fast jet?

From my perspective, I can't see the other two nations being happy to take the risk onboard (why should they?) and the other two industrial parties would be more concerned with protecting their own profitability. I'm not aware of Bombardier's capitalisation, but Markets do take a dim view of companies carrying too much risk on their balance sheet. If MOD carries the risk, there could be accusations of unfair competition...

EAP

Royalistflyer

16th Nov 2017, 20:12

Unfair competition - from whom? The idea is to specifically ask one company to do a job, so if MoD chooses to underwrite the initial phase, so be it. I agree that Bombardier has no fast jet experience, but there are one or two possible partners who aren't French, German or American that I can think of who do have experience. Even going to Sweden for design and management and letting Bombardier just do building would work.

EAP86

16th Nov 2017, 21:03

Roughly speaking, if a government agency is willing to provide something to a company which gives them a significant business benefit (such as a far healthier balance sheet), most of the other companies in that sector would state that if its good enough for one company, its good enough for us all; we want you to underwrite our risks too.

Refusing to provide that benefit across the board is often construed as 'unfair competition'. The EU (or WTO if you prefer) have rules about that type of practice.

EAP

keesje

18th Nov 2017, 19:01

I think the Brits would have been part of this project wouldn't it be for Brexit.

Maybe UK suppliers can be in the supply chain.

No doubt the RAF would be welcome to buy them.

Unless the population changes its mind anytime soon, which seems unlikely.

https://armadainternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/fcas_web.jpg

peter we

18th Nov 2017, 19:22

Military projects have nothing to do with the EU and vice versa.

The Germans don't make an appealing development partner, either.

Herod

18th Nov 2017, 19:35

Unless the population changes its mind anytime soon, which seems unlikely.

I think a large proportion of the population have already changed their minds, but the politicians aren't interested in reality.

Royalistflyer

18th Nov 2017, 19:51

If we are specifying, ordering, buying and building for our own Air Force, WTO rules just don't have anything to do with it. If the government issues a specification for an aircraft, it may well be that it is necessary for the government to part fund the necessary R & D. The point isn't about our companies being in the supply chain for a foreign aircraft, the point is about being in total control of what kit we buy for our needs and not being reliant on foreign suppliers. Now we can all recite deplorable failures on the part of British companies when supplying stuff for us, not least BAe, but having control and not having big brother America decide if we can be trusted with their precious technology is important, that kind of thing goes right back to the Norden bombsight.

Frostchamber

18th Nov 2017, 21:05

Is it me, or does the CGI look like something from about 15 years ago?

keesje

18th Nov 2017, 22:31

I think Eurofighter, NH90 showed a variety of national requirements and changing political interests can lead to suboptimization, delays, cost escalations. Keeping it under control of 2 determined nations might keep things simple & affordable.

Ensuring long term indepence is also promoted.

https://www.expatica.com/de/news/country-news/France-Germany-aerospace-defence-Airbus_1525235.html

etudiant

19th Nov 2017, 00:58

keesje

19th Nov 2017, 09:47

This project does not pass the laugh test.
Germany and France are struggling with aging populations and unintegrated minorities, not foreign military threats (unless the Brexit goes totally haywire).
If the F-35 costs a trillion plus, what price a much larger high performance stealth strike aircraft program?
It seems deeply implausible that the military leadership is so out of touch that it will sacrifice their slender resources on this cuckoo.

The European Air Forces have to replace hundreds of their Tornado's, Typhoon's, Rafales, Mirage2000, F16, F18s and other fleets over the next 20 years. Requirements have changed.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-military-industrial-complex-is-fundamentally-changing-the-european-union/

ShotOne

19th Nov 2017, 11:32

The French have long history of wanting majority stake in such projects without necessarily making majority contributions so good luck with that. What scenario leaves Germany want/needing a dedicated long-range bomber in 2035?

Nige321

19th Nov 2017, 12:46

I think a large proportion of the population have already changed their minds, but the politicians aren't interested in reality.

According to the latest polls not many have changed their mind...
Latest polls... (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/21/brexit-poll-opinium-eu-no-deal)

Heathrow Harry

19th Nov 2017, 12:54

"What scenario leaves Germany want/needing a dedicated long-range bomber in 2035?"

Probably the same as the USAF B-21

EricsLad

19th Nov 2017, 15:16

If we consider the F35 to be the equivalent of the F15 /Tornado/Typhoon (particularly in cost) - the next big project is the F16 replacement , in terms of cost (hence quantity) and exportability.

An individual country could do that especially if the airframe was tailorable for alternate engines and systems.

"Exportability" and "tailorable" do not seem to be genuine words and my sentences seem to be under the influence as well today !

Fonsini

19th Nov 2017, 18:04

As with any design project you start with a specific objective, in this case a specific threat scenario. Makes me wonder what the Germans and French see as their most likely type of conflict that would require such an aircraft. Reminds me of a fifth gen (RAF) Buccaneer, and we know what they were intended to do.

ORAC

19th Nov 2017, 18:34

If we consider the F35 to be the equivalent of the F15 /Tornado/Typhoon (particularly in cost) - the next big project is the F16 replacement , in terms of cost (hence quantity) and exportability. Hilarious as it may sound the F-35 is the F-16 cheap replacement, supposedly being less expensive both to buy and maintain. Go figure.

The next generation USAF fighter, the PCA, is the high end of the high/low mix and is the planned F-22 replacement....

brakedwell

19th Nov 2017, 19:16

According to the latest polls not many have changed their mind...
Latest polls... (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/21/brexit-poll-opinium-eu-no-deal)

Just give it six months!

ShotOne

19th Nov 2017, 20:26

“Control platform for UAV’s...” Seriously? Why would one spend a trillion dollars for something which could be done from a portakabin?

Farrell

20th Nov 2017, 01:12

Are they going to paint them white?

ShotOne

20th Nov 2017, 02:39

Perhaps AfD will allocate them to the Grenzschutze to shoot illegal migrants

ORAC

20th Nov 2017, 05:27

“Control platform for UAV’s...” Seriously? Why would one spend a trillion dollars for something which could be done from a portakabin? Frankly, at this stage it’s a buzzword bingo list of all the latest salesmen pitches......

AW&ST: .......”The Franco-German fighter, details of which first emerged in July during a meeting of the Franco-German council of ministers, would feature “enhanced capabilities” in terms of range, persistence, electronic warfare, survivability, situational awareness and weapons capability. Artificial Intelligence would also play a major role, the officials said.

Airbus has begun detailing its take on the German requirements with a family of manned and unmanned platforms in which the manned aircraft act as command-and-control platforms. Swarming fleets of unmanned combat air vehicles carrying sensors, jamming equipment and weaponry could be launched by Airbus A400M airlifters and directed into action by the fighter jet.

“Fifth-generation aircraft will have to do some [command and control], and if you operate four of them together, you can achieve some air superiority,” says Antoine Noguier, head of strategy at Airbus Defense and Space. “This [future] fighter needs to go beyond that, with a combination of low-observability and long range; it will need to crunch data internally to provide local and distributed [command-and-control] perspective on other effectors.”

Open software architectures to allow easy upgrading of onboard systems and a directed-energy weapon were also necessities for the new aircraft, Noguier says.”.......

Heathrow Harry

20th Nov 2017, 07:23

Absolutely!!

....and with everyone trying to get their snouts in the trough................

Torquelink

20th Nov 2017, 10:09

In the UK, if one forgets (thankfully) about BAe, the only company with design and construction capability is Bombardier.

When Bombardier bought Shorts in 1989 they made absolutely sure that all overall design, assembly, flight test and marketing skills dispensed with - apparently in response to Canadian union/political pressures to ensure that there would be no threat to these capabilities held by DHC and Canadair (as they then were). Shorts became a (very successful) sub-assembly designer and manufacturer but getting back into the overall design, manufacture and assembly of something as sophisticated as a fifth / sixth generation fighter would be an exceptionally tall order.

orgASMic

20th Nov 2017, 10:22

Hilarious as it may sound the F-35 is the F-16 cheap replacement, supposedly being less expensive both to buy and maintain. Go figure.

The next generation USAF fighter, the PCA, is the high end of the high/low mix and is the planned F-22 replacement....

But if LM manages to replace every F16 in the world with export versions of F35A, then the unit cost of that variant will be very much lower than the Bs or Cs, and the programme cost would be far lower than developing a different replacement from scratch.

glad rag

20th Nov 2017, 11:42

Absolutely!!

....and with everyone trying to get their snouts in the trough................

Isn't that the NATO east European expansion construction gig?

keesje

22nd Nov 2017, 16:24

Absolutely!!

....and with everyone trying to get their snouts in the trough................

:)

Correct, everyone wants to be friends now. I guess the Germans have learned their lessons though. If they are gonna pay, they want what They need in time, at budget. No NH90/ Typhoon kind of multination/ industries drama's. The French they can use, the rest can be second tier supplier / customer.

etudiant

22nd Nov 2017, 17:11

:)

Correct, everyone wants to be friends now. I guess the Germans have learned their lessons though. If they are gonna pay, they want what They need in time, at budget. No NH90/ Typhoon kind of multination/ industries drama's. The French they can use, the rest can be second tier supplier / customer.

We're now in the real of total fiction imho.
No large defense program has ever come in on budget or on time afaik.
The normal experience in the US used to be 100% overrun, some much worse.
Here the challenges are well above average, so experience would suggest well above average delay and cost growth as well.

Icare9

22nd Nov 2017, 23:55

My personal preference is for small and agile, not expensive and capable of all, just the task at hand.
If it means UAV's that's fine, we're leaving the realm of pilot capability with extreme speed and G forces, so let's have tiny tactical stingers, capable of supersonic speed and with the ability to mount an array of weapons, defensive or offensive.

There are spotty kids out there that may be the generation we need if a global war were to break out, not aircraft nd crew costing squillions of pounds that won't be able to get to their targets.

tartare

23rd Nov 2017, 00:24

We're now in the real of total fiction imho.
No large defense program has ever come in on budget or on time afaik.
The normal experience in the US used to be 100% overrun, some much worse.
Here the challenges are well above average, so experience would suggest well above average delay and cost growth as well.

If he could, I think Kelly Johnson might disagree with you...

Heathrow Harry

23rd Nov 2017, 07:22

They may also be thinking about export markets (the French will for sure)

The F-35 is too expensive and probably restricted, the F-22 is out of production and REALLY restricted and any F-22 replacement will be unbelievably expensive and never exported.

Anything Russian or Chinese is relatively unreliable and not competitive (yet)

A lot of countries will be faced with replacing all those F-16's, F-18's F-15's, MiG 29's & Mirages and quite a few of them are not poor and will be serious regional players by 2030-2040

Just This Once...

23rd Nov 2017, 10:56

But if LM manages to replace every F16 in the world with export versions of F35A, then.....we can all fly pigs?

Seriously, I don't think there is a single customer out there who will replace F-16s with F-35 on a one-to-one basis. For most, perhaps all, export countries the eye-watering cost of the F-35 has lead to a cut in overall aircraft numbers when compared to their F-16 fleet. Even if the unit price were similar the bespoke and expensive facilities needed to support the F-35 have made quite a dint in the budget.

NutLoose

23rd Nov 2017, 10:59

could feature “enhanced capabilities” in terms of range, persistence, electronic warfare, survivability, situational awareness and weapons capability. Artificial Intelligence would also play a major role, the officials said.So does that mean, it persistently breaks down, is aware it has broke down and when realising the threat is great, it turns and runs away utilising its enhanced range while dumping its own weapons to increase its speed, thus ensuring it survives?

NutLoose

23rd Nov 2017, 11:07

Germany looks to develop its own sixth generation stealth fighter jet | Defence Blog (http://defence-blog.com/news/germany-looks-to-develop-its-own-sixth-generation-stealth-fighter-jet.html)

http://defence-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Airbus-DS-FCAS-web.jpg

It does look very much like a two seat F22 though

https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/17/32/1600x800/landscape-1502315162-badass-plane-f-22.jpg?resize=768:*

NutLoose

23rd Nov 2017, 11:10

Though I do wonder if it will cost as much as the

http://www.historyinorbit.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/4oPuCX2-1.jpg

keesje

23rd Nov 2017, 11:29

PDR1

23rd Nov 2017, 11:32

But they are a very similar shade of grey - surely that clinches it as a straight copy...

PDR

etudiant

23rd Nov 2017, 14:58

If he could, I think Kelly Johnson might disagree with you...

Afaik, he worked for the CIA, rather than under DoD rules, in the 1950s. Is there a more recent counterexample?

Bing

23rd Nov 2017, 18:40

Afaik, he worked for the CIA, rather than under DoD rules, in the 1950s. Is there a more recent counterexample?

Fairly sure he worked for Lockheed who had contracts with various agencies.

etudiant

23rd Nov 2017, 19:04

Fairly sure he worked for Lockheed who had contracts with various agencies.

Just so.
Lockheed was his employer and he designed the U-2 under a government contract for the CIA. The USAF and DoD had no role afaik in the management or supervision of the work. Nor did Lockheed line management, it was Johnson and his selected engineers and workforce.

melmothtw

23rd Nov 2017, 20:02

Just so.
Lockheed was his employer and he designed the U-2 under a government contract for the CIA. The USAF and DoD had no role afaik in the management or supervision of the work. Nor did Lockheed line management, it was Johnson and his selected engineers and workforce.

He designed a lot more than the U-2 - the C-130,for example. He said they would probably sell no more than 100 of them. Now at about 2,500 and counting..

engineer(retard)

23rd Nov 2017, 21:47

Looks like he’s getting bigger

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EADS_Mako/HEAT

Buster Hyman

24th Nov 2017, 12:26

They're flying in the same direction so...straight copy really.

etudiant

24th Nov 2017, 19:51

What am I missing.
Technology allows inexpensive quasi autonomous combat vehicles, so much so that ethicists are raising cogent questions about their morality, yet these military staffs are endorsing a massive fighter bomber concept that will make the F-35 appear a bargain.
Is technology a forbidden word in European military circles?

I don't see how such a 500MM E silver bullet item could ever be bought in quantity sufficient to be more than a footnote to military records.

Heathrow Harry

25th Nov 2017, 07:26

The planes are specc'd by guys whose whole life is about flying FJ's - if you say some spotty faced recruit sitting in a portakabin is going to replace them it strikes at their whole life and value system

You don't ask a barber if you need a haircut and you don't ask pilots if they want unmanned aircraft...........

(and just look elsewhere on PPrune to see the reaction of commercial pilots to the idea of one -man - or unmanned commercial 'planes................... )

etudiant

25th Nov 2017, 18:33

ORAC

25th Nov 2017, 19:53

No, at that stage they’re putting in place arrangements for their directorships and vice-presidencies with the aircraft manufacturers....

t43562

26th Nov 2017, 11:27

I don't think this video has been posted before:

q0QifojDyhk

keesje

19th Feb 2018, 10:05

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/airbus-sees-initial-details-of-franco-german-fighter-in-second-half-2018-9967606

Hoke said it was imperative to avoid mistakes made in the last big European military program, the troubled A400M military transporter, which has been plagued with cost overruns and technical challenges.

"It's important that the specifications (for the new fighter jet program) are developed with a sense of proportion," he said. He said it was important to "prevent requirements that are too comprehensive and that cannot be delivered by industry."

glad rag

19th Feb 2018, 16:31

Buster Hyman

20th Feb 2018, 11:30

Of course if it were to fall under the blessing of Schultz and Junkers et al.... lodsa mon€€€€y.....

https://i.imgur.com/Ct04rlm.jpg He knows nothing.
https://www.pprune.org/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBw0REA0ODg0NDQ4NDg0NDQ0NDRANDQ4NIBEWIiARFR8kHSgiJBsx Gx8TITEhMSkrMTouFyEzRDMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OFxAQFysfHR4rLSstKysr Ky0rLSstLS0rKysrLSstKzArNy03LS0tNystLS04LS0tOCstKystKzg3Lf/AABEIAN4A4wMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAQIDBQYABwj/xABQEAACAQMCAQYJBgkHDAMAAAABAgMABBEFEiEGEyIxMkEHFEJRUmFigZEj cXKCofAzNZKisbKzwdEVU3N0dcLhJCU2RGN2hZO00vHyg4Ti/8QAGQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAIhEAAgICAgMAAwEAAAAAAAAAAAECERIhAzETQVEEYXEi/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwDy93qJjmkJpyJQM5EolRTVWpKAOFSA1GBSSmmgIycml poFPzxoAWnCkU0Rb2pb2f1m91CAHNOS3c+Tj6XRrXaLyYeTqTb7W3pVdy8kV QdPc3R3dGrXG2Q5pHnq2jef8lWapBp6ny3/AOX/AI1eX9oFOB5PaoNVIpYUGQENGz5Z/JqVOSVywym5h/Rnb8aJW5cVreT3KlItokXhnd9gzwqoxTFKTXRgLnk9dp1xHo+j/DroIoynBDKfRZWVq+kbDlDpU4GTECfJlRd1VHKnk9pc0bvGYldRu2rt2tU47 BTpbPCAc1HdNwwKvtW0Lm+MTbh/N7v0Gs3Luz66lpxLTsgxUsdRmnLSGTU5TTKcDQA2Q0Iy0Y4qNo8UAE6dqcsY wFyP1aLfW5mHo1WCnoeNFIROL+Tz11QkCuooKIlWpUSlQU7bQMcBSim0hoAf Q7tmlZ6aooAkC0tcDUsK8fo0AFWlsvbf6q1f6Mqb1zwqg52npOe4/wB2ri0iJbPbtJ1/SbeNd9xFv+szVQ8peV8LH5BdvBu16/OPfXnKSgdf1t1RGXJq1LdmeJaXF1uLHPapqbSaqy9PFxioci0qLC6UBW89Vk rtTnlyacIM0lYxkF66twJWrOLVZT5ZqqeDFdGuKak0Tos5Lh/n3elQF/pxkVnQfKD89f405XrU8m0SRWjPW3Zb2vuaqsux3R5mVrgKveVumczMx29B+l/8n341SLWbVFp2PFOxmmgU9KQyaGLJqbUY+CkU23NFXCZSqQimAqRRSYqQCkM TFdUgpKBCU0mupOqkM7dSsaaRUZNCARqeo4U0CnqtACiiUPd6qHVONWOl2j3 EsVsnW56O7srw7XzYGfdQBAhqVFycCita0/xaeW237+aKq0m3bubA7vfQZPDhTQg2W1dSwccV9pW/wpGWo4Cx9Qwv2URzbVRAPUqLRUVl8/V+6nqir22pUAKIqlV1FJJcIeA4/RqOK2mk7ETGmgHO61CRk1cQ8ktRcZS2lYY3dGP75qG40K7i/C27p9JWX7aAK/FH6bclCpTrWhpIjRFrAapdgJymn52Ns9a9L4f4ZrJ4rRX/AJQP3zWeFTPsqIqGpsVEtSLUFEkTYo9W6LUAh9mjF7NUhFZL105aSXrp1JjF BpKcKSgQwU00tRE0hik00VxNcBQA6nAUwCpRQApNb/wb2CxRz6jL1YaOLd5MY7TD5zhfcawGMlR6/wA6vRtfdYYLexiK4iRWmZvs+3LY+aom6RUI5Soymv3HOXVxIfLdm2+bgP8Ax Q9nZPIcIrNUyhSxd+tjub9/6KguuU7IGjtlX0Wk/hWkVrZMu9Gn07k8i8bmZYU8rpLVnLrXJ23XAKzuvlNul+xRj7e6vM0iubg5k d3+k3R+FW9pyeHos1D5UukC4G+y51fllZy8I0dE9GC0RPtJzWfk1OHPC3uH/pJEX9Aq9t+TL44Io+lRY5Mue9PyWrN8zZsvx6M1Hqb+RbL/AM16kj1+4T/V0/LlVvjV+eS0w70/OpknJm4PoVPlY/AjtH8Jl9bHo26unlLJLI2f4VoF8Ne4Yn0tT6W2fcv2rWOveTN2vERKfotVPc 2EqfhIiPpK1PyWS+FI1mp8q9GuDlbeWxc9ryovgKXSLy34jekqN5St0l91ef SJUPFero/RbbWq5GYPio3Wtrzb7+70u10e+so3An56bb6xcABC/Op6MnS2+/rFO3K3Vw9n+B76cnY0qOWpBTBUgqSrFQ0SG4UKaeDwpoTIpKQVz1ymgB4pK4 NXUCBy1NNJS9dIYlOApAKkoASn7qQLXUASQbtynb2SrfbV1qGovKxf0zzj+k 3s/NVXbJUGoXOBsRuLdpv7vz0NK9jUmrSIdRvi3yaHoeU3pcf0URo2lbzk8EWgL eDLIB6VbCCHZFw66icqNOOIZaLFHtAXjVrBcrwzhfrVnYJUUM8h/vbqmj1dCdiQ3GfZj3M3Ds4rLGzbKjWwzeZg1Twyn7+qsVLelW4K6lvJk3J0f mNHWmqOTx6IpNUaRlZr1dTThtqni1GIDiwoK51hU2nuzUlvRo+dJ+aorhUIw cHd6XSrPDlCzHCY+s1P8ZLjjvz6SsFqqIckN1PkzbSA7BzT+z2fhWI13Qpbc 8ekjdlq9Atbps4em6vAskbI/U38KcW0zOUU9nkrjtUTbPw+j0qhmGGceiWX7aZC3Gug5PZZrUmKhiapgaB0c aXNcRSGmJkZ765RSNSqaAHA11NxXUCIDSim0oFIY4CnBabT1WgDt1LHSEgdd A3E5b5qADbq/wCjiP6zfwoILUUHHh+TRQiJ21LZcVoO0SLLK58mtxY2yOMOvBqz2l2OErTae OAFYSezeCpA38kr0z180ej9HvqRbXe2cuAx3bY/mOcH5i3xNWsB+P8A5p/iqjjtxQpUW4JrY+9jSVTmJWQKqrzva7uo/CqI6YqyZ6x6LdlW7vsq9jUfPQUzdLH1vtpOVlxjRZ2iIVwUVvq+qs9qOlIZM 9kN5Kr0d3pear+2bC8aRYw+5H+q3otUobMvPosQdcW/O7TGzK25lfAOVOCO/Hfwo/UNGh5i35pFgukTa7RyN8rJntEefGBVrcWr9W3ft8rstXW0ag52cfJXb++tMj Lxq7KzT4pjt5wdNOi9GXKZKg+erSI43e10vv8AAVU6lNtDEeT0lqPYzA60LT f8lC8XHpbuy3HtYPGqW5RVYYrU8qYsmKQdb9Fvv76yV42Wb2a3hsx5FQVbHr ohTVfbu1WCmtDAfmuNcKaTTEMpBSlqTdQMkApK4E0lAgcU7FKPKpUNIYgWpB Ta4mgCK66lqterZxkYNV9zHigBlk2JEz1ZXd8a1sViOr0elWMFegIq4Ug8G2 7fa4dqs+Q14t6C7JeFWdrwNAwdQo6I8M1kdCDQ67uAo6OJmqssvOatFudoqT SIly6Rr66oonJfJbtGir+J3RnHn7NUKSzc5kvgKOjHt7XzmihN0bi3jRkwGX OGbpdGgYn2uCerO2qVNTYZwjHh5NEWTTSxs5iMW3sq3a6qKBSNG6tUTy4pmm TMVGfzqlmZaCqBzNmq67XO4UU1CSNx4eehEsouU8SCF5D0eaXan9IT2a8876 3vhAuFEcFsnbY88/wwPtyfdWNitfPXRx6Ry8z3QlslHjrqKNcVNiqMRaYxp4prUwIjSgVzGlU0wH ikrga6gRAKctLnjTlNIY1aSnbqcTQBGTXd1PFcRQALJaIero1YaPJNzkMZfd Gu7b8DiodlG2bqkkQPSd/zFIP21L6Ki6ZpFbFWEB4VWbuFWNu3Cuc60F264qcjJxTbYUTwU0kadHMMD79 1Bh7fHFVZ26XpfV+2or2/27gFyfyqpIddIbJif0fwW1W+yqREtmjhjTBAAXj9arG1XAx3YrKprcJkXobf J27WXd760ltdo4Up9aixKLQ+Pomll6q5+NNkNSag8rYFCZUFSfPRE54VnuVk zLCgGem69JfJwD++mlbM5OtlXyyuVe44eQixs3tcf4iqNTSP6zu+lXd1dKRx SduzgKehqNBUoWmxDs0jU8UxhTAjriKQjjS0AdXUmaWkBHnjT92aHJpytSCi TupC1MLGuBpgSbs04mowafGrE4HXQOie2TLKO6opXxcKT5Lq31as4oFQcOkW 7TVX6mnSR/Xt/dVVoi9mqXqo2xeqfS590Sedfk293D+FHRPg1xtbO2L0X1s3xrro54Cg7eWiN +aRsR8F25H1lqZby3Hbb8pd1NETNSNpCnr8qmL+BXOWzFthTP0dtRvGucxvt dfKXs/RPqoD+THU5CnFFruA7NIffYfaS7hx8ntepq6Q+ahIJMfWpZZc0wIpmqj1aYN J4s/YZOl7LZOGHr4A1aluNZDVZP8AKi46mbav1eFa8S2c3M6iV19bmNmQ/Vb0l7mFDFq2ot4rhMSL9FvKXh2hWc1LQpotzhedj/nI+lt+kOut5Rfo5VIrBJip4XzQjUXZrwPn9H/Csyie3ZWOKFnlIZhU1pu5zjw/Nb4Go9STDUk7KYNzppyk1HiniqJErqkpKQy5/k2KuFlEPJoumkVlkzWgY2sXo0zxVPRomkRGPUtCbFSB0s1JAC0QbVI/p+U3kr7IqzhhVEyetvK8r6NByIpzn6tdEI/TKUvgOWoHUlyh4VZ7ajktQyt0u6tGQgHQ7zDYPU/63d/Cr7dWOK7GZD0dp6P0a0On3u9ePbXte17Vc04+zo45ei0ivMGrSCcN31Q3CKR vFMtrkoayo3ujXwzr1UWl0orLx6mh6m20o1JR30UaZI1yXOeuhbxqz6arg9d SnUx3tn0aVCyQZLKoocz7jQEru5+/21PBHimKwm7m2Rl+/sqvpN3VjLx8lD7bfoq51O+3NgdiLd9aT78Kobx+MXz/ALq6eONKzj5pW6NDpsnD7+arWGVh1e1/61S6cez9+jV3YQNI4jBVC4bYzdksPJ+Fb5KKtmFW9Fdq+gQzAyRYhkbpdHsM 3rHw41R3Fjd2hSRInV8dGRel9YGtdLE8Z2OpQr2t37vVRNhKjHmJGVd34KRv IY9WT5uoH41LUZq0NNx0zHQ8r7jopdxRXcf+3jXevzHAaiXttNvOMFz4lN/NXO54m+Zuv45q6vdOQkpIm11LKyt5LZ76z2ocnl60Urt9Gud/j1uLo0XLemD6hyWvoRvMPOx/z8Dc/E3tZHEe8VUBas7a7v7NsxTOo9ndt+iw89XFvyyRmU3unWd1t8toF3N7xis35 I97NFi+jMbaWtqNW5Ot0jbvGTx2KeC+oV1Lyfpk0B2Wk3MvFIjj0m6K/f5qNk5LXYGQInPoq3SbHm4DNaWy1eaZ9lsionRVpGj7HWNueJ49HFEcpdaW1 RYw/Ozt2elu+Ux+7jk+6pmpRXe/hopJs89htSe30Ava9L4UUAnSROiFDM3xA/SaZI744tx6TM3td9R2IYtd+zDH+0FdSjjH9mDlbJJ5M7RUDbvR7X3/AH07dnjXZ93tLWpJEWOaUfZ/jSMns/f74rireaixAetWO9ecRemn5y+j9/NVJbTlT2tpXs1rIj1D/wBeus7qmlyiVuYR3DfKfJru2+f7+uolRcWy1s7xXHr8pf73zVMUrMwStnI6J Wri1vt3B+ifzW+asJQ+HRGd6YekCMOO7+9RMWnRH0m+k1Vhmx1VPFfAdbVGz TQf/JkPtfVaiILRF6l+t2moBb72qcL1aKY/8ln0aD1G/wBnQQ/KN+Yp8o0HcX+0cOvyf/FA2y9bvxLHtVcIWzLk5NaHSPtGPvuqsmHykQ+tWo0KyWSTLqpCDst2Sx8/n4ZoTX9OSOZDGy4ZWZo18lSe6rfMs8DDxusiSxPZHS6NW9nPsdJPQeNtzdrb nj+mqy3VcLii0PD6Xpej9xWzWUa+madOz0K8mh27JYWlRvK27lXr6Wesd1Z7 U9C3jnLR+e29JY+jz23vx5/8KttBl523QGUpIm6B9rbekvVkdXEYpvisMZbKNn+fg3fJe1jze6vJ4G+O17T OzlSlT+lJdKZIhI6Ok9v8nMsisrNF3SYPWVOFPqxQIkXq+/w+Fenanbc7apOPlSic46+nGEO9frLx+FeY6hDzMjR9ofhIpPTiI6L/AAx7xXqcc01/TjkvRDNDx3xtt/Vb3VV3MELn5ROZf+diXofWX94q3hlOP/16xTZlVjx/Kqp8Slv2OM3Ezr6Hd56MPOL3Op6LesV1W5tJxwU9Hu4d1dWPjl9NM18NPr/Km2skW2tFVpOyir3MfKPf7zxNZJEdmM07b5H7XohfRHm76A5J6XHPf2CXAZ0 ubpIpVLvG7JsY4ypBHEDiCK9G8JvJHTrC0guLKGSGVryGFmN1czAxsj5XDuR 1gccd1KHHTuW2Epel0YSd+1/3Uui9q99q1Zl9zqatPB/pFtfailrdxtLB4rcS7BLJDmQPGAcqQeotwzjjWt1zwf2Cano1raQyw290mot qCrdXLGSCNYSEyXJALFQSCDhu+tJbVEI87ZlNKGrb8ruTGj2+paJp0FtIpvZ 2a6Hjt4xNtggLxkOMtuORg9DGcE0nhQ5GWthBb3mnRPFtuFguQZ55vk34LIN znaQwABGO36hQ2H9Ke00DdC7n8NjdEu7s9+0+s4qhI7Wfv9+qvRfCLo1npVt BeWcdwsnjkMTqby6nEkbI+U2vIRnIXBx1ii4+Qej2tm97rSc7LtWe8kZ5+ag diMxxIh7IY4BwSevPmy4vJGTydplzxa0eZIer/tqeCUq28Z/7l9H9FbXwjeD60gsZr7Sw1q9tFzjxCR3gmh72wxJDgcQQfJwQc0Tyn5D6THp Nzf2tvJFOll41DIby7kCtsDdTSEHhwwQRWsqkiFo8u5SaVhvGY12o/b2+S3pY8376pUC9Tr9Za955J+DzS5tPsZbqCaWa4tYJ5yb68RWdkDcVWQKOv GAB1VmPBjyD0+7Gqm9gadbbUJrKAC4uIlRE6x0WGe0vE5PAe/OEcVTLk7POEhfHQbnR9La9RbHJbgwPtLV3ypsYbfUNQhs1MUFtMIo4i8km3E SbuLEk9Ises9fcMCvS9M8HOnXGk29xHDIt/cabBOk/jVyR441up3lS+zG88RjGD1CqxQKbR5HDpUzcOl9ajhpDJjf0nPZXz+16hXoX g85KWF5pYvrqGZrpmu8uLu6h27ZGAG1XA4AAdQ6qr/BPyQXUoW1DUjLLETzMEAkaJJiq4aVypBI3cAMjipJB4VOLKzRh3tyrYcbT0W +r3YrnbI4V7HHyB5OXsU/iUbRNFNLbNcQyzh4bhD0lAckEZx3EEd/fWZ5A8ltFkFza6q9vJqcV/cWgiGoS28kqIFAKRrICQSGIOM9fmrROjJqyn5NQYgVyv4Us2734GfVwqm1O4 3zynbgoebb3DHEdWfXXsV/yH5OW0Ye4HisOQgefVryCLdjgoJmAzjOB6jVHyJ5D6LeRXczwtcKupahDbyp f3RQ2qzEJgrJgjbjDd445PXWHHxOM3Js1lO40edRr1HqH8aMQP19Fvot+7rr ccjOQ2lXJ1cXFvLILXV7u0g/y27XZbqkRVOEgzgs3E5PHr4UFyX5IafNq+uWUsUrW1h4p4rELu6Xmt6EtxEg Y8fOT7q6c0Y4gfJW+2SbHbhONvs84uf3Z+FagLLlsdHsttfs9/Rz5skVVS8kNPXlBDpyxTCzOkm95rxy73eM+MOu8Pzm/sgDGcd+M8aXlXyeFtqWj20LXA07UZubnjN3cu6yqGJAkLlwGVk4Bh+CPnOeT k4MpuUdX2bRnUcWbTQn6JjK4OFkVei3djb+g1huWek7TLGo42+6eH2rNjkoP otn3GjuVcH8l3emx6ZvSXURcWwFzdXN1HzxmtVSQh2Y4USSEgYyM+YYuNU5I 6HAkMupmW5lklithdXM91JLNcO2AoCnABOeAAAHmAquGDhHFkzak7+nlET56 6JDrlR9/jV54VuRkOnWxv9O3xRAiK4tzI8qIzZCzIWJIO7aCM4wRgDHHQcpuQ+jwabe3 kNrLHLFZTTwt4/ePsl5slW4yEEBsHBGDiurMzcbMIHrqgQ5AOV4gdVdVMk7ksoGp6OB1ePJ+o9 eleHP8XW/9o2v6klebcmD/AJ00f+vJ+zavSfDp+Lrf+0bX9WSs32WYrwP/AI4X+oXX7SGvcntEMsc5HykUU0KnzI7Rkj4onwrw3wP/AI4X+o3Q/Phr2O91Pm7+xtScC6tr919ckbW+B+S0h91JgjyDVLx5eVcJkBUw6hBbRofJg W3JBHqLM7fWr2TlFpSXdrcWr4xNGQCepZAQVf3MFPurzblrpvNcpdFuFXo30 kW5v9tErqfzHi/J+G21nWeY1TSLZmwl9DqcYHcZl8XZSfcJB9akMzvh3/Ftv/aVp+h6tfDB+JNT/o4v26VU+Hggabbk4AGo2hJPAAbX4mrnwsQvJo2opGjSM0UZVUBZj8qh4Acer JoAk5cfiPUP7Nl/ZVX6e/jHJcd5fQ5Iurdlxalc/PkZqw5e9HRNRDdEjT5VIPpc3jHz54VXeB2dJ9Ft0KdFXvIGTGAE59yE/JZR7qANhp8SxRW8PAGOKONVyM4VAOFUfIOw5lNSOMc/rGqT9WOBmIH2KB7qg5QaxzesaFa5wLlNS3jPeIlK/aGFaeONIkbHBQ0srd5yXZifiTQB813265vtTKdmW9v5mfhtEXPMBnz8AoA89 e/8hPxVpH9m6f8A9OleHaCEW0ExAaSdXkOcktKwLYPmABY5+fz16n/KD23Jqzuo+3baVps6jzlY4Tg+o9R9Rot+wNFZaUlrb3cSdh5L24UDht5xmcr 8wZmA9WKzHgK/Elp/S3X7Zq2T3KS2xmjO6Oa3MsbedGTIPwIrF+ApgdEtQCDiW6BHXg88xwfXjB94 oAJ8Ev4DVP7b1P8AXWsLBDCdYSQEc8vKe4jcZ6XNmNyCR5sg4PqNb7wX20kc GpCRHjLazqTqHUqSu9ekPV18a8us5ieUu3ClTr9wyOOsEbwy/NnHvU+ukwPQPDqP82wDhx1C2xnqzsk66k8Bv4q/+5efr1H4dfxdb/2jbd+PIkqXwHfio/128/Xo9j9Gt0XRYbU3hiaRje3k19LzhU7ZXVQVXAHRwowOJ6+NYzkR/pByo/4f+zNXHIC4kdtc5yR35vXL2NN7ltkYjhwi+YcTgdXGqfkR/pByo/4f+zNMRPcf6WQf7vn/AKt612s6Ulx4qzY3Wt1DdRHzMMgj8lnHzkVkbj/SyD/d8/8AVvV5Z6z/AJ3vNPY/6jaXsK/XdHP7H7aAMr4UvxvyR/r1x+vbVbeFi1uZbawS0jWW5GqWkkMbsERnRJHwxyOGFPeKp/CqwGrckSSABez8ScD8Ja/vq78KJuhb2D2olMseqWR3RKWZEO9STwPDDYJ9dAGI8I+ocp5NMu49Q06xt7N uY56aCbnJVPjEe3A5w9b7AeB4Emtdytuc8mZJAdvO6XbAYOe2kY2/Mc499E+GMgaLfE9QexJ9Q8chrJ6vqlweTcNs+mX0YSx01Hun8W8VEKtDmThK XwUBI6OckcBQBiwer5hXVzNXVqzNAtldyQzW9zEEMtrKs8ayZMbNg8GwQcYJ 76uOVPLa/wBQijt7qGzijjmjuAYBLvLqrcOkSMcfN3VRtUGcjJqdFhnJ/XLiwuRd26QySCKSHZOHKbGKnPRIORtHxNWupeEDUri70+9aOzjl043PNLGJT HKJEVWV+lnGBw6uJrMsOFNQ4NJiNnqfLvUbprKeWHTo20+7S4QqJyQSjDa3S 7Jzxxxyo999rK6jeSWd5ctZRTac3PWXiqyshZpIm3ybjkqebC4GODHj1V55p 67nMZ7MqtGfUeJB9xUV6ByNummto434mPfGD7OMj4ECs5J06KTWh2ty6lqkS W18lilus3OAW4m5yRwjKASxIC5bJPHqqeDlNqmn+K2MYg1NXzFbJO8kF5Gow ArtxDDrAOAcDvxRukShVDMN2C5HqG09Q6s8P0easJr+ryCGW/H4e9keytvNbQ7QS30iCBke156x4XPHKfb6NJ4p0juV3LO/1JntpuYhs4JhvitWd1uZVbss5ALKDg4AA7+OARJyY5Z3+nxy29pFZyRPO9x/lAlDK7KoKDaQCMrnqz0jWagjCBVHk8D6289FIhxkHq8/H799dcY62YtlprHKO+ur201KUW0dxY83zEcYl5ghXYndk54g4OCOAFXN14Td YmiliNvpyLNHJEZFE5KhlI3DpYyOJ91ZVV7+8d/vrgM4HdRSC2PhhAhMCNtxGqBj14xgj5qLu+XOotp/8jvBaLAlrFZmQCXn+aRVG7tY3EKO7v6qARyvuzu9qmajEGG/ylOGPpLj9NOl2Ky90PwjanbWsNisVpJDDHzAkkWZrgQ8QDgMASFwMcOC03Su VDaW2NLlW4t2jjWeK7jkjjkkVFAlXiCshXAPAg4GRkZrLxHo578Z99RM9GKH bPQNW8LOqSxtHDb21kXBVp1ke4lUedBgAHr4kH5qxGl3T289vcw7XktphOgl 3MrybTndxB7ySc5zQwP2U6VuiT5v4UUgsvOUnhEvdUiS0uIbWJFmScNAspbc qsMEliMdI93dVnyW5Y6lYQeK2sNpNG0ssw55ZTKWY5I6JAwPm6qwOlr8op81 aRZtmTgkPG8bAPsbB7wcHB9x4cKmhtl3o/LzVLQ3hit7OQ3t5PfSB45xslZEyi4PZCqp8+DnqqLSeVupwX99eRQWjz6lJb RTK6T+LxuAFUKcgjrGc5oG5vxvk+SLHpMjGXbgyWyxncNpz1ZHEd/n4QS6md6OYzmK4WdQsxCkb0O1ht4nocDwxnqNFCstm5Z6k2oJqvMWvjCWZse aEc5g5jnGfeeOc5zxzjApknKjUG1FNW5uBLuGDmDCsc3i5g2t2xnd1sCDnGV HroBNTcOr82A3O20zhZSFcorrtHR4A5BxxAK9XHg+z1ORFC7ctsiHObkZtyl +l0kYY6R4YB4dYyadDJ+VPKG81NrZryCOPxdZuYe0ScHL802/JJ4gIhHz5q9tvC1qsUQSW0tbltuI7stLAsgAxvZcEE54nBHqArLxahIhTo5C eI9HnSAREhUjs9+c+rHfQ9zfGWNI2TAhEYdVZEV9sZUEHZuzjPWSPUO4pCui 31jltqt/Zvp11HA0dxzZaeOGUXEgWVXyqg7cZUDq6vXU13yx1KawOmPBbeLGCK0aWOKc zbFAUEcSN3Rx5s54VQJfBixKON8SQyBJyuMc1gx9E7eyM9fWaLm1CVs4G0yR zx9GRgAWkB3dXWOr7eHVRSBsbuXvOO7BHEV1NvAZJJJDhecdn2jpAZOcZrqd gf/Z

ORAC

6th Apr 2018, 06:23

France expects combat jet announcement at Berlin Air show: report (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-military/france-expects-combat-jet-announcement-at-berlin-air-show-report-idUSKCN1HC25T)

PARIS (Reuters) - France expects to take a “first significant step” in the development of a new European fighter jet with Germany later this month, Defence Minister Florence Parly said in remarks published on Thursday...... Parly said that ongoing “active talks” should result in an announcement at the ILA Berlin Air Show from April 25-29........

“On a political level, discussions between the French and German teams are intense. The industrial groups are working well together and now we have to ensure the two processes come together,” Parly told La Tribune newspaper.

A French defense ministry source, speaking before Parly met her German counterpart Ursula von der Leyen, said the two sides would sign a high level common operational requirements document in Berlin, a 10-page document that outlines the basic needs of the two militaries. After that the companies involved - Dassault, MBDA, Thales and Safran on the French side and Airbus on the German side - would spend just under a year working separately on technical specifications before agreeing a common contract to work together.

“This proves wrong the people that said France and Germany couldn’t work together on defense projects,” the source said. It was too early to talk about including other EU partners in the project, she said. The source said France and Germany wanted to push the project forward quickly before bringing others on board.......

“We are looking at first delivery by 2040 to replace the Eurofighter and to prepare for a future beyond the Rafale,” the source said. “The industrial studies will start this year autonomously so that we can try to start to work together next year with a view to launching the program in the 2020s.”.....

Germany’s defense ministry did not immediately respond for comment.

tartare

6th Apr 2018, 06:26

Mais, sera-t-il habité...?

Heathrow Harry

6th Apr 2018, 07:02

George K Lee

6th Apr 2018, 12:02

Well, that's what everyone tries to do. But as for the history of defense acquisition reform...

http://www.huttwaterpolo.org.nz/newsletter_200102.jpg

Evalu8ter

6th Apr 2018, 12:36

Love that French statement. "Replace Eurofighter" is a thinly disguised dig at the jet, suggesting it will be obsolete, while "prepare for a future beyond Rafale" infers it will not need replacing at the same time/before Typhoon.....

My bet is that this will go the same way as the proposed Franco/German Heavy Lift Helicopter of 2010; an idea that effectively subsidises industry for a couple of years but delivers an output that is clearly unaffordable. Germany will then pull out and go its own way (hence the CH-47F/CH-53K purchase..) and the French will do what they did when they pulled out of the FEFA project and try to design their own aircraft.......

KenV

6th Apr 2018, 16:41

Love that French statement. "Replace Eurofighter" is a thinly disguised dig at the jet, suggesting it will be obsolete, while "prepare for a future beyond Rafale" infers it will not need replacing at the same time/before Typhoon.....
FWIW:
To infer is to draw a conclusion based on non stated evidence.
A statement that presents evidence designed to cause another to come to a certain conclusion is to imply.

Lima Juliet

6th Apr 2018, 17:40

Seeing as this is a rumour network I did hear a rumour of the return of the fast jet WSO with UK FCAS some time later next decade. Anyone else heard that?

Heathrow Harry

6th Apr 2018, 17:47

Well, that's what everyone tries to do. But as for the history of defense acquisition reform...

http://www.huttwaterpolo.org.nz/newsletter_200102.jpg

Absolutely!!! ;);););)

Haraka

6th Apr 2018, 20:49

Much as have loved (and continue to love) working with French Mates on private contracts ,I do remember in my "European" days words of warning from an Italian mate on the metaphor of building a house.
"The French will go in with you so willingly 50/50 as you start to build the house .All sounds fine until you find they have manipulated to holding 51%. From then on it's "their" house and you find yourself increasingly then being pushed out of the door.

seafuryfan

6th Apr 2018, 21:02

Assuming an in service date of around 2035, I’m surprised to see a cockpit. Insurance policy?

The B Word

6th Apr 2018, 21:23

keesje

31st Oct 2018, 00:33

What is this twin-engine low-observable aircraft in this recent BAES poster?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-testing-aircraft-flexible-payload-bay-complete/

Also at slide 11 of this presentation:

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2018/02/RS71035_Flexible-Payload-Bay-graphic-lpr.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=php-1.1.0&q=80&

Is there a 6th Gen manned fighter on the cards for 2030?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x675/dhvhe_twsaaf_az_5f8d4e5027c2ed080936f6f4f618ab775ea9fe7a.jpg

Dassault concept

It seems the French and Germans are discussing responsibilities, exports etc.

Meanwhile the vertical stabalizers have gone and thrust vectoring is in..

ORAC

31st Oct 2018, 07:56

They usually are at this stage - but creep back in later in the design - especially when landing on a carrier is involved.

ORAC

16th Nov 2018, 04:57

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/11/15/french-officials-stake-out-sovereign-bits-in-franco-german-warplane-bid/

With nukes in mind, French officials stake out must-haves for Franco-German warplane

BERLIN — French defense officials said they will bring requirements to the future Franco-German combat aircraft that they believe are deeply connected to the country’s sovereignty: the ability to fire nuclear weapons and operate from aboard aircraft carriers. These two must-have capabilities take a special place in what will be a growing list of feature requests to be developed by analysts over the coming years. What makes them unique is that the importance Paris ascribes to them likely will place them outside of the give and take in requirements negotiations that happen in all cooperative projects.

“France has a specific policy about deterrence,” Maj. Gen. Jean-Pascal Breton, the French lead for the Future Combat Air System, told attendees at the International Fighter industry conference in Berlin. “That’s why we don’t want any countries to dictate to us what to do.”

The aerial leg of France’s strategic deterrent consists of nuclear-tipped ASMP cruise missiles, made by MBDA. The delivery aircraft — special versions of the Rafale and Mirage — will be phased out in place of the future Franco-German aerial weapon. Meanwhile, France’s desired carrier-operations capability comes with specific design requirements for how planes take off and land on short runways at sea.

French defense officials also hope to incorporate dedicated combat drones into the mix of Future Combat Air System platforms, which France has studied together with the United Kingdom for years. Those carrier-capable unmanned aircraft would be bigger than the drones envisioned to be swarming around the main, manned aircraft, and their task would be striking targets deep behind enemy lines.

Germany needs none of those features. Still, officials from both countries here at the conference insisted the diverging requirements would be sorted out amicably as the program progresses........

Analysts are currently toying with four variants for the main, manned, combat aircraft, which is called the next-generation fighter, or NGF, in French FCAS lingo, Breton said. Each boasts specific strengths, like maneuverability in one case. It is unclear, however, how many distinct versions there will be in the end, he stressed, as Germany and France each fine-tune their visions.

Spain is expected to formally join the project soon. The plan is to have Madrid sign similar cooperation documents as Berlin and Paris have already inked, including a finalized, high-level requirements document in the next few months.........

While Dassault will be in charge of the central combat aircraft, as agreed by all, Airbus has claimed the lead for the so-called “system of systems” for the entire project. The term refers to the sensor and command connections linking all FCAS components as part of what Airbus calls the “Combat Cloud Ecosystem.” That piece is considered the secret sauce meant to turn a bunch of flying objects into a highly autonomous, lethal and coordinated weapon.

Asked about the industrial leadership for the “system of systems” going to Airbus — as opposed to Thales, France’s go-to electronics vendor for the domestic military market — Breton thought for a moment and smiled. “There will be a European answer,” he said.

oldmansquipper

16th Nov 2018, 11:30

Com'on folks,

Jezza will sort it out and then Vlad will supply us with a few of his surplus Mig Whatevas

etudiant

16th Nov 2018, 12:33

Germany has not paid much attention to its military, as the current low serviceability of its forces demonstrates. So it is a big ask to expect their political leadership to provide any coherent input to set future equipment requirements.

Davef68

16th Nov 2018, 15:43

What is this twin-engine low-observable aircraft in this recent BAES poster?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-testing-aircraft-flexible-payload-bay-complete/

Also at slide 11 of this presentation:

https://ukdj.imgix.net/2018/02/RS71035_Flexible-Payload-Bay-graphic-lpr.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=php-1.1.0&q=80&

Is there a 6th Gen manned fighter on the cards for 2030?

Interesting post in the light of what was revealed as the Tempest project later in the year

tonker

17th Nov 2018, 18:17

It can support the EU army, that we were promised wouldn’t exist.

Fake news mannn

ORAC

21st Nov 2018, 15:05

via Janes.

France and Germany have agreed to progress development of a next-generation combat aircraft, with an announcement on 20 November that both countries are to launch demonstrator design studies next year.

The announcement was made on Twitter by French defence minister Florence Parly, who said the agreement she signed in June with her German counterpart, Ursula von der Leyen, to approve the next-generation combat aircraft project had now been firmed up with a commitment to begin the formal design of aircraft and powerplant demonstrators in 2019.

"In June, France and Germany decided to develop, together, the combat aircraft of the future. [There was a] decisive step today with the agreement to begin the studies of architecture and design and the launch of demonstrators (aircraft and engine) by mid-2019. It's moving!", Parly tweeted.

KenV

21st Nov 2018, 17:05

This is all smoke and mirrors until each country actually commits funds and assigns development responsibilities.

ORAC

20th Jan 2019, 08:05

Alert 5 » Jane?s: Franco-German Future Combat Air System takes shape - Military Aviation News (http://alert5.com/2019/01/20/janes-franco-german-future-combat-air-system-takes-shape/)

https://youtu.be/EbmVvmyV1SU

Flap62

21st Jan 2019, 01:40

So France want a platform that has nuclear capability and can operate off carriers. This is completely at odds with German requirements. A perfect scenario. Let them waste massive amounts of money trying to fulfil the impossible brief. Let’s not forget, they are our economic rivals.

melmothtw

21st Jan 2019, 09:39

So France want a platform that has nuclear capability and can operate off carriers.

I don't think that France has yet decided if the carrier mission will be performed by the Next-Generation Fighter, or by a sub-variant of it. I understand that Dassault has put together 4 design concepts that are currently being worked through.

Let’s not forget, they are our economic rivals.

Any country offering an aircraft to the same market in which the UK is competing has always been our 'economic rival', EU or not (which I assume was the underlying message behind that comment).

Jackonicko

21st Jan 2019, 10:49

Mil-26Man

21st Jan 2019, 12:22

There has been talk of both the European projects being amalgamated into one, but I can't see why a continent with the highest GDP on the planet cannot sustain two separate future fighter programmes.

For sure they will take market share from each other in the international export market, but so what? That already happens with the Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen and yet all three projects have secured export sales and have each sustained themselves and the defence aerospace expertise of their respective nations.

Besides, I can't see either the French/Germans or the UK giving way.

Thoughts?

cokecan

21st Jan 2019, 13:14

...Thoughts?

the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.

the next thought is that if the Germans do pony up the development money for an aircraft that can do everything and claim the workshare, they will then back out when it comes to actually buying airframes - and the French will be left holding the €1bn each unit cost.

the thought after that is that the cost of getting 2 or 3 different/seperate aircraft types out of one aircraft 'system' - or perhaps more likely, starting off with 2 or three different types, merging them into one, and then seperating them out again for production - is going to make the F-35 look like a craft session for my 4yo.

the swinger is carrier operations - if that requirement gets ditched than it all becomes a bit more doable, though that would be difficult politically because then France becomes just another military power within the EU, and the EU as a whole goes out of the carrier strike business.

melmothtw

21st Jan 2019, 14:12

the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.

This is all true, but could just as easily be said about the UK and Tempest.

t43562

21st Jan 2019, 14:48

the initial one is that the Germans won't pony up. a 6th gen aircraft that can do all of the things the various parties need it to do is going to be buttock-clenchingly expensive, and these countries haven't built a 5th gen aircraft yet.

Presumably reunification costs aren't there to influence the situation anymore, though?

chopper2004

21st Jan 2019, 15:33

The Jane's video, with the impressive Gareth Jennings fronting, does say that France has been looking at 4 design concepts.

I find it interesting that French attention seems to have switched from the finless, tailless Delta shown in the original Dassault 'Wings for Europe' video

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/631x376/european_1531213763_86e887bf849c7c349f4d9b40515fd1fded7301a6 .jpg

Dasault 'Wings for Europe' video concept

and in model form at Euronaval

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/maxresdefault_dadd07f8bce30c71799172c46cb6bce9744ecc6e.jpg

New Generation Fighter concept at Euronavale

to a twin-finned design more reminiscent of the original Airbus study.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x365/dassault_scaf_aa_2__0350e3c333599a6300cdda5974343da361419cec .jpg

French twin-finned concept

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/425x300/airbus_20ds_20fcas_20_web_e09a0023ba260ec75b01fec24a73796e3d 60c05f.jpg

Original concept unveiled by Airbus
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x563/_q_60_url_https_3a_2f_2fs3_amazonaws_com_2fthe_drive_staging _2fmessage_editor_252f1499965092700_fcas_2_369b487a235a01fa9 7cece8b7cc152169f207c94.jpg

original Airbus concept

In saying that, if and when this Franco German does take off (no pun intended), its looking like a two seat job thus can anyone here see the Luftwaffe re affirming their training commitment with the CNATRA? At the moment, the Luftwaffe WaffenSystem Operator trianing is carried out at NAS Pensacola as there are several Luftwaffe piltos flying the T-45 Goshawk instructing their soon to be backseaters. Though with the withdrawal of their long established training unit at Holloman, (one Tonka used as museum piece/gat guard locally over there), I am not sure if the Luftwaffe have discontinued with the Navy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e7Nd1opokI

Cheers

Mil-26Man

22nd Jan 2019, 08:47

AFAIK, all of the design concepts (French and German) are for a two-seat optionally-pilot aircraft. They have until an ISD of about 2045 to get a pilot training pipeline up and running, so just 'details' at this point.

Lyneham Lad

13th Feb 2019, 11:20

On Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/defense/industry-begins-work-franco-german-fighter-project?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20190213_AW-05_786&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000003474208&utm_campaign=18484&utm_medium=email&elq2=4ffcafc3576841588dd92977433c2a55).

France and Germany may have signed off on the latest milestones to develop a future combat aircraft, but tensions are simmering due to Berlin’s continued reluctance over defense exports.

The two countries agreed to a pact to further defense cooperation on Jan. 22, including finding a “common approach” to exports of defense equipment produced in partnership. But Germany now appears to be holding up sales of the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile to Saudi Arabia, citing concerns about Riyadh’s ongoing conflict in Yemen, French newspaper La Tribune reported on Feb. 5.

MTU and Safran (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=132193) will work together on the engine for the NGF

Demonstrator programs for FCAS will be announced at the Paris Air Show

And while exports of a Future Combat Air System (FCAS) are at least two decades away, there are concerns that a failure to find consensus on defense exports, even after such high-level agreements, could yet throw a spanner into the work of the Franco-German industry at a fragile early stage.

“It is a path . . . . We will find a solution,” French Air Force (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=19076) chief Gen. Philippe Lavigne said in Washington on Feb. 7 when asked about Germany’s reticence toward defense exports, particularly to some Middle Eastern countries. “There is a real determination for this program, for our security but also for our industry. We have to develop this.”

On Feb. 6, Berlin and Paris began doing just that, issuing the first industry contracts for a two-year concept study for the FCAS, which is being developed to replace France’s Dassault (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=33459) Rafales (http://awin.aviationweek.com/ProgramProfileDetails.aspx?pgId=667&pgName=Dassault+Rafale) and Germany’s Eurofighters.

The €65 million ($74 million) project will outline the concepts and provide some options for different architectures, says Lavigne. It will also prepare and initiate demonstrator programs that could be formally launched at this year’s Paris Air Show and fly about 2025. The work follows national studies carried out during 2018 that outlined the characteristics and missions the FCAS would perform.

Click link for full article.

ORAC

18th Feb 2019, 06:39

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/15/taking-sides-italian-defense-industry-rep-attacks-franco-german-fighter-deal/

Taking sides: Italian defense industry rep attacks Franco-German fighter deal

ROME — Plans by France and Germany to team up (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/08/french-air-force-chief-france-and-germany-working-on-export-controls-for-future-fighter/) on a next-generation fighter are an affront to Italy and will weaken the European Union, according to the head of an Italian defense industry association.

In a strong attack on the Future Air Combat System, or FCAS, deal, Guido Crosetto told Defense News that Italy would seek closer ties with the U.K. as a consequence, despite the U.K.’s pending exit from the EU.

“The fighter deal between Germany and France leaves all others on the margins. And since the only other country with equal industrial capabilities is Italy, the deal is clearly against Italy,” he said. “Have France and Germany tried to get the Italy involved? It doesn’t look that way,” he added. “Additionally, if two European stakeholders strike deals together, how should the others react? This risks weakening the EU, while giving more justification to those trying to weaken the EU.”

Crosetto is the head of the Italian defense industry association AIAD.......

The FCAS program covers both manned and unmanned aircraft, which are due in service from 2040 to replace French Rafale fighters and Eurofighters currently flown by Germany. Showing that Paris and Berlin do want additional partners, Spain signed up Feb. 14, stating it would become an equal partner on the program.

But in the belief that Germany and France will call the shots, Crosetto said Italy would do well to sign up with the U.K. to work on the British future fighter known as Tempest. “A jilted partner has the right to look around for other partners, and the U.K. has asked us to join Tempest,” he said.

Italy’s junior defense minister, Angelo Tofalo, said in December that the country “needed to enter the program immediately.”

Crosetto said he was not alarmed by the potential difficulty of doing business with the U.K. if and when it leaves the European customs union, which is due to happen this year. The split will be a headache for Italy’s defense champion Leonardo, which owns facilities in the U.K. and would spearhead Italy’s work on Tempest. “Brexit would mean more red tape for Leonardo but would not be a difficulty — the Italy-U.K. relationship would remain very positive,” he said......

melmothtw

19th Feb 2019, 12:58

I'm not sure to what extent the sounding-off of one 'defence industry association'-head represents the views of his country's government.

Lyneham Lad

19th Feb 2019, 14:32

Well, the Spanish clearly have a different opinion to the Italians. On Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/spain-joins-franco-german-fcas-fighter-programme-455828/):-

Spain has joined the existing Franco-German effort to develop a future combat air system (FCAS), which is scheduled to enter service by 2040.
During a NATO meeting in Brussels on 14 February, Spain's minister of defence, Margarita Robles, signed a letter of intent with her respective French and German counterparts, Florence Parly and Ursula von der Leyen, covering the country's integration into the programme.
Madrid says that the country is joining the initiative on "equal terms with France and Germany" and that the project will give Spain "leadership visibility" within European security and defence policies.
Noting that Spain is already a partner in the Eurofighter programme – together with Germany, Italy and the UK – the defence ministry says the commitment will provide "quality opportunities to the Spanish defence industry" and enable the country to maintain a "solid base" of aerospace activities.

The FCAS programme will comprise development of a manned fighter jet and unmanned aircraft, which can be operated together.
Aircraft developed under the programme will replace the Eurofighters operated by Germany and Spain, as well as France's Dassault Rafale fighters.
Airbus Defence & Space – which has extensive activities in Spain – and Dassault have been selected as prime contractors for FCAS programme, while Safran Aircraft Engines and MTU Aero Engines have joined forces to build the aircraft's powerplants.

Spanish manufacturer ITP is a shareholder in the Eurojet consortium that builds the EJ200 engine for the Eurofighter – as is the company's parent, Rolls-Royce.

However, R-R has been selected as propulsion partner for the UK's Tempest next-generation fighter programme.

Asturias56

19th Feb 2019, 19:31

The Spanish don't see themselves as a tier one military airframer any more (if ever)

The Italians remember when they were..

the big question is do the Brits have the balls and the money to stay in the game or would they prefer to be US sub-contractors...

Lima Juliet

19th Feb 2019, 19:59

:ok:The latest graphic from BAES has a bigger canopy and rumours abound about a possible return to 2-seat ops. It also says “pilots” - ie. plural?
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x643/image_ffe39c390a8763baf84bee423b55cd0327535b8c.png

Maybe the RAF are starting to listen to other coalition partners? Here is a good sound bite from Air Cdre ‘Zed’ Robertson talking about Syrian ops (Op OKRA):

The Super Hornet, to my mind, was probably the best tactical platform in-theatre at the tactical strike role. Now I would say that, wouldn’t I, as Commander Air Combat Group? The two-seat concept was absolutely validated—the ability to get the platform over there, deal with the initial complexities and employ operationally was excellent. It was very different by December, when we were working with the larger coalition of 13 nations. When we arrived, the Brits had just started dropping weapons, so we were about the third nation to drop weapons. The French had done a couple as well, but as a coalition, we were very much at the forefront of the campaign.

The processes were very immature. Having a pilot and WSO able to work through the rules of engagement and targeting directive matrix, be sure of combat ID and give that assurance was second-to-none. I would argue that, unlike our Classic Hornets, the Super Hornet’s ability to generate CAT 1 GPS-guided weapon coordinates off the aircrew’s helmet proved very flexible. Our ability to quickly react and deliver weapons accurately was borne out. We measured that and it compares very favourably with all the other strike capabilities there.

Or maybe the single seat mafia is here for a while longer?

weemonkey

19th Feb 2019, 21:12

More to the point how is Germany, in particular, going to be able to afford it?
I mean they can't afford what they have now!!

etudiant

20th Feb 2019, 03:02

More to the point how is Germany, in particular, going to be able to afford it?
I mean they can't afford what they have now!!

Not sure that matters, this is an effort to keep options open, not the start of a serious development.
A Germany that gets half its gas from Russia is unlikely to enter into a conflict with its supplier.

unmanned_droid

20th Feb 2019, 09:28

The ability to generate coords off the helmet robust enough for weapons guidance is pretty awesome.

melmothtw

20th Feb 2019, 10:36

More to the point how is Germany, in particular, going to be able to afford it?
I mean they can't afford what they have now!!

How are we going to be able to afford it?

Asturias56

20th Feb 2019, 14:51

I don't think anyone can keep paying for higher and higher tech fighters TBH - the technology is becoming too expensive.....................

It may turn out like the RAF between WW1 and WW2 - a whole string of one or two "technology demonstrators" that just about keep the design teams in work but never lead to a fleet buy....................

Buster15

20th Feb 2019, 18:22

More to the point how is Germany, in particular, going to be able to afford it?
I mean they can't afford what they have now!!

Quite correct. And supposing they can afford to procure it, they will not be able to afford to operate and logistically support it.

As with Typhoon their primary objective was to gain technology and pretend to buy hundreds to ensure their work split and then reduce their number to a much lower number.
Also as with Typhoon they drive up the cost making exports unaffordable.

weemonkey

20th Feb 2019, 20:01

The ability to generate coords off the helmet robust enough for weapons guidance is pretty awesome.

..there doesn't appear to be an agree enormously smiley available..

weemonkey

20th Feb 2019, 20:15

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x563/_q_60_url_https_3a_2f_2fs3_amazonaws_com_2fthe_drive_staging _2fmessage_editor_252f1499965092700_fcas_2_369b487a235a01fa9 7cece8b7cc152169f207c94_aab36111dbc3ecd444e010bb6561b196d8e5 fcc2.jpg
Looks very akin to the SNP's white paper of 2014, Lots of we will, but very little of how we will..

Lyneham Lad

21st Mar 2019, 17:07

On Aviation Week (https://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-why-franco-german-fighter-very-bad-idea?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20190321_AW-05_689&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000003474208&utm_campaign=18875&utm_medium=email&elq2=b675ee26c9b14bf7a14e6a7fe74723ad). From the article:-
Last month, France and Germany signed a €65 million ($74 million) contract covering the first two years of a planned binational fighter under the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program. This represents a departure from the historical pattern—for the past half century, Germany has worked with Britain and other countries on combat aircraft, while France has gone its own way. But this time, the UK’s EU Brexit has inspired the two countries to try a different, joint path.

Superficially, this makes sense. Germany and France are the core Airbus (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=33990) countries, and the two countries’ militaries constitute the largest fighter markets in Europe, outside of the UK. France has the most capable military industry on the continent. Yet there are also several flaws with this joint project, flaws serious enough to kill the aircraft before it gets off the ground.

chopper2004

22nd Jun 2019, 06:32

Beginning to wonder ...if this could be it as I made my merry way through the show (my photos below) then after elevenses.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/2b9b7ccf_5f48_4e5f_b040_7e22ffe165cf_55e11c5a74e17e541634dee 1d3e4add3b8471323.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/5937b628_9113_4eee_b8ea_5d727fa755d1_8377e3ad90c2d71820660e9 4f646515d8cadc2c8.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/1612a5aa_9e88_4c1c_9eb8_6c11a435590e_da32e677f4892808491498c f68e9e6bb37fc2604.jpeg

BEagle

22nd Jun 2019, 07:24

Impressive cloaking device in your first photo!

treadigraph

22nd Jun 2019, 08:59

I thought it had been swept under the carpet.

SASless

22nd Jun 2019, 22:39

Having a pilot and WSO able to work through the rules of engagement and targeting directive matrix, be sure of combat ID and give that assurance was second-to-none.

Ah to remember the good old days when the guys went out and killed the bad guys without having a Lawyer in the rear seat.:ugh:

BEagle

23rd Jun 2019, 07:29

Ah to remember the good old days when the guys went out and killed the bad guys without having a Lawyer in the rear seat

Remember this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1541847/Britons-caught-in-terrifying-hail-of-fire-after-fatal-US-mix-up-in-the-sky.html

Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

Combat ID is vital - hence a WSO obtaining confirmation is very reasonable.

Asturias56

23rd Jun 2019, 07:35

safetypee

23rd Jun 2019, 09:38

TBH I'm skeptical that Europe will ever produce a new, state-of-the art fighter again............. the costs are astronomical , the buy is dribs & drabs , and the chances of political interference are immense.

:ok:

Adapt what exists, develop the overall system in proportion to need and technological availability / affordance.
Lessons to be learnt - F15, F16, F18.

“Ever major design change or modification was initiated, and every new variant conceived either in response to an official requirement or as a result of official or unofficial contact with RAF officers at all levels. All of this was done in the continued search for improvement to keep ahead of the enemy.”
Jeffrey Quill - Spitfire.

“The Mach number is proportional to the Mark number” - Wren

etudiant

23rd Jun 2019, 19:52

:ok:

Adapt what exists, develop the overall system in proportion to need and technological availability / affordance.
Lessons to be learnt - F15, F16, F18.

“Ever major design change or modification was initiated, and every new variant conceived either in response to an official requirement or as a result of official or unofficial contact with RAF officers at all levels. All of this was done in the continued search for improvement to keep ahead of the enemy.”
Jeffrey Quill - Spitfire.

“The Mach number is proportional to the Mark number” - Wren

Thought I'd read that the initial Spitfire design was done with an explicit prohibition on any involvement/requirements setting by the ministry officials.

ORAC

6th Mar 2021, 07:00

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/03/05/dassault-boss-trappier-floats-plan-b-considerations-for-the-troubled-fcas-warplane/

Dassault boss Trappier floats ‘Plan B’ considerations for the troubled FCAS warplane

PARIS – Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier, whose company leads the tri-national New Generation Fighter (NGF) destined to replace France’s Rafales, Germany’s Typhoons and Spain’s EF-18 Hornets, has admitted that there is “trouble” afoot with implementing the program’s next stage, dubbed 1B.

The phase involves getting Spain and additional suppliers on board. The mandate to include Spain’s industry means that work share between Dassault and Airbus, instead of being split 50/50, is now split three ways, with Airbus holding 66 percent, as it represents Germany and Spain.

“I’ve accepted that,” Trappier said, “but it’s made sharing the work in all the packages, including the strategic ones, more complicated.”

The fighter program is part of the Future Combat Air System effort, which envisions networked drones accompanying the manned aircraft, and a combat cloud architecture pulling all elements together.

Trappier said that “we still believe in this program,” which was an “efficient” way for the three nations to develop a sixth-generation aircraft at a reasonable cost. However, he said any responsible chief executive “tries his very best to make Plan A work, but always has a Plan B.”

In this case it would appear that France’s Plan B is to go it alone on this program. Trappier pointed out that “in terms of technology, Dassault knows how to build aircraft alone. Safran knows how to make engines for combat aircraft. Thales knows about electronics, and MBDA missiles,” so French industry has all the know-how necessary.

Speaking at a virtual press conference Friday to announce Dassault’s 2020 financial results, Trappier explained that currently the partners “are butting against the one-third-each share of [industrial] work packages between us, Airbus Germany and Airbus Spain.” He explained that in the joint work packages “nobody holds responsibility.”

He cited the flight control strategic work package as an example of an obstacle. “There’s no boss, but we are the prime on this program and as such are responsible to our government,” he said. “Dassault has to have the levers to action our responsibility.”

Addressing the issue of intellectual property (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/02/01/companies-seek-end-to-haggling-over-fcas-rights-with-fresh-offer-this-week/) he stressed that the “there will be no black box” in the sense that “all the states will have access to all the boxes.” But he remarked that “it is the creator who remains the owner [of the intellectual property], and we have 70 years worth of experience. Nobody can force me to give away our intellectual property.”......

Less Hair

6th Mar 2021, 08:18

Let others pay and keep the rights for yourself?

oldmansquipper

6th Mar 2021, 09:01

I have full confidence in the United States of Europe Federation being able to get all their 3rd party contracts in place, in good order and in a timely manner.

it’s what they do.

...and if it all goes wrong they can blame Brexit.

Less Hair

6th Mar 2021, 09:23

Nobody blames Brexit in EU-Europe for anything except for long wait times for lorries at UK checkpoints. Good for air cargo.

ORAC

13th May 2021, 06:14

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/05/11/germany-goes-hail-mary-on-funding-europes-next-gen-fighter/

Germany goes Hail Mary on funding Europe’s next-gen fighter

COLOGNE, Germany — German defense leaders have admitted there is no firm financing plan for the Future Combat Air System, but they still plan to submit the project to lawmakers for approval soon.

At issue are the next phases for the German-Franco-Spanish, next-generation fighter aircraft, dubbed 1B and 2. The decision to proceed marks something of a point of no return given the billions of euros to be pumped into flyable prototypes.

In a May 7 letter to lawmakers, German Defence Ministry leaders sketched out a sporty timeline for presenting a signature-ready deal to parliament, a mandatory step before money can start flowing. The idea is to send the proposal to the relevant Bundestag committees for review in the last week before the summer recess, the week of June 21.

The timing is critical because once parliament goes out of session, the following six months, at least, will be consumed by the September national election and the ensuing formation of a new government……

Germany’s iffy defense budget projections add to the uncertainty surrounding the program. Defense officials have all but thrown up their hands when it comes to getting key programs included in the budget in the short term. After that, all bets are off, as government analysts expect the modernization requirements to outpace available spending after 2022.

Large projects like FCAS typically come with considerable uncertainty built in, but German lawmakers typically force the government to show its hand at key junctures before cutting any checks. The May 7 missive to parliament about FCAS and other funding plans includes only a generic reference — “federal budget” — in places where programs are supposed to be delineated to specific line items in the defense budget nomenclature.

“Normally, such a proposal would never make it here,” said a Bundestag aide, adding that the tactic of submitting unfunded programs could serve to pressure the Finance Ministry headed by Olaf Scholz, a Social Democrat who was just named his party’s chancellor candidate for the Sept. 26 general election.

German finance officials flagged several outstanding hurdles in a report on FCAS to lawmakers earlier this year. For one, a French request to except certain French intellectual property concessions, classified as “specific foreground information,” from the overall sharing architecture had raised eyebrows in Berlin and Madrid.

The dispute likely would not be completely resolved before the end of May, the March report read, adding that France had yet to spell out its specific reasoning at the time.

In addition, industry offers had come in at 25 percent above the budget ceiling of €2.5 billion (U.S. $3 billion) agreed by the partner nations for program stages 1B and 2, the Finance Ministry report stated. The companies also were expecting to receive “significant” additional services from the nations as in-kind contributions, it added.

The three governments had yet to speak to the possibility of a budget increase as a result of “high industry demands” at the time, according to the March document.

Asturias56

13th May 2021, 07:19

"German Defence Ministry leaders sketched out a sporty timeline for presenting a signature-ready deal to parliament"

good try to bounce them into a signature before a national election possibly brings in a less defence minded Govt. ... but I doubt it'll work

ORAC

18th May 2021, 06:03

They’ve still got to persuade the Bundestag to pay for it…

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/05/17/new-trinational-deal-paves-way-for-fcas-demonstrator-program/

New trinational deal paves way for FCAS demonstrator program

STUTTGART, Germany — Nearly four years after the pan-European Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program was first brought to light, the three partner nations have reached a deal to develop a demonstrator fighter aircraft by 2027.

French Minister of Defense Florence Parly formally announced Monday that France, Germany, and Spain had finalized an agreement that will allow industry partners to start developing a flying prototype aircraft, after months of uncertainty surrounding the negotiations.…..

Parly confirmed in Monday’s statement that the FCAS program is still expected to reach full operational capacity by 2040. The “system of systems’' will include not only the new fighter aircraft, but also an upgraded weapon system, new remote carrier drones, an advanced combat cloud, a new jet engine, and advanced sensors and stealth technologies.

There were mixed signals from Paris and Berlin late Monday about the costs involved.

A French defense spokesman confirmed that the demonstrator phase was expected to cost 3,5 billion euros (U.S. $4.25 billion), split equally among the three participating nations.

Defense officials in Berlin said the Implementing Agreement 3, which is the document governing the upcoming program stages 1B and 2, comes with a price tag of more than 4 billion euros ($4.9 billion) for Germany alone.

Either way, the figures are up significantly from a previous cost estimate of 2,5 billion euros that the governments prescribed to companies as a ceiling last year……

The new agreement includes only one demonstrator, to be built by Dassault, the spokeswoman said. Additional demonstrators, as some German lawmakers have called for, would have to be purchased extra, and the stipulation is that they must be identical to the first one.

ORAC

21st Jun 2021, 10:18

Seems they have pit in a request for everything but a kitchen sink. Not sure they’ll get it….

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/06/18/german-defense-ministry-seeks-53-billion-for-next-fcas-research-phase/

German defense ministry seeks $5.3 billion for next FCAS research phase

COLOGNE, Germany – The German defense ministry has forwarded a request to lawmakers seeking approval for almost 4,5 billion euros, or $5.3 billion, that would pay for the country’s contributions to the next stage of the Future Combat Air System.

Lawmakers on the Bundestag’s Budget and Defense committees are scheduled to consider the request next week.

It covers a collection of research and technology-development activities, collectively dubbed phases 1B and 2, between 2021 and 2027. During that time, officials want to begin regular test flights with a demonstrator, constructed under the auspices of France’s Dassault Aviation……

Germany’s share in research expenditures on the program’s seven “pillars” and the development of an initial demonstrator amounts to 3.3 billion euros. In addition, Berlin is on the hook for 450 million euros to cover government-furnished equipment, which officials have previously said could include access to aircraft engines and airfield time.

Notably, the defense ministry wants to create a separate pot of 750 million euros dedicated solely to national developments. The amount is meant to ensure German industry’s “eye-level participation” vis-a-vis their counterparts from France and Spain……

Defense officials describe Germany’s envisioned national spending plan as a necessity, given that the trinational program alone would fail to yield a usable weapon for any of the partner nations. The “product-heavy” fighter development, for example, includes too little consideration for satellite communications and multi-layered sensor integration, leading Germany to set up its own developments on those areas.

The same logic underlies plans for an avionics test bed, according to the written spending request to lawmakers. “Avionics technologies are a core sub-system for further development and risk mitigation of the operational product,” officials wrote, adding that those aspects are outside the scope of the trinational program

German officials also want to offset nationally what they consider insufficient attention to the fields of electronic warfare, mission planning, weapons interfaces, and the secure distribution of sensor data, according to the document.

The government here admits that the future budget for FCAS is anything but certain (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/05/11/germany-goes-hail-mary-on-funding-europes-next-gen-fighter/) at this point. A fallback fund of 4,3 billion euros is in the works in the event that the defense budget alone is too small to carry the program in the years ahead.……

ORAC

1st Sep 2021, 16:54

This looks like yes they did, no they didn’t. Is it signed off or not? From the report I’m still not sure it won’t be EFA/Eurofighter all over again with the French wanting the lead on everything…

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/dsei/2021/09/01/top-defense-leaders-kick-off-new-phase-for-europes-next-gen-fighter/

Top defense leaders kick off new phase for Europe’s next-gen fighter

WASHINGTON — Top defense leaders from France, Germany and Spain have formalized plans to begin the preliminary development phase for a lead plane under the Future Combat Air System program, committing their governments to spending billions of euros in the coming years.

The trilateral agreement, signed in Paris on Aug. 30, follows Germany’s parliamentary approval in June to invest nearly €4.5 billion (U.S. $5.3 billion) in the program through 2027. The other nations are expected to contribute similar amounts, though it’s unclear if France and Spain will finance separate, national industry programs — as planned by Berlin to the tune of €750 million — on FCAS-related technologies…..

German lawmakers have criticized the unusual sequence of events for the program, as they were asked before the summer break to clear the spending request without a chance to study an industry contract.

Many of the program’s travails so far have played out between the major national players: Dassault for France, and Airbus for Germany.

The two companies previously disagreed on the degree of influence they would have in the program. Another sticking point has been the treatment of intellectual property rights, including the status of predeveloped components each company brings into the FCAS mix at the outset.

The German Defence Ministry suggested on Twitter on Aug. 31 that an accord was still not simply a formality. “Now it’s industry’s turn — come to an agreement,” the ministry tweeted.

German defense officials told lawmakers Aug. 30 that a deal among the companies would be forthcoming in September, with a chance for the Bundestag’s legislators to sign off once more.

French defense procurement office DGA is the government’s lead agency for all contractual matters. Officials there will eventually sign a final pact with Airbus, Dassault and Spain’s formal lead company, Indra, after all governments give the thumbs up.

The FCAS program comes with a huge amount of political ambition, as leaders in Berlin, Paris and Madrid have pinned much of the European Union’s newfound defense aspirations on its success. The high-level backing so far has managed to smooth over serious industry-level disagreements and cultural differences between Germany and France, in particular.

The French, who have long owned the industrial capacity to make jets on their own, have at times feared that German industry is out mostly to poach their know-how. The Germans, in turn, are suspicious that the French essentially could upgrade their Rafale fleet on Berlin’s dime……

medod

1st Sep 2021, 18:41

France and Spain have already committed their 3.5 bn euro each and Germany isn't going to say no. It looks to me that the CDU were forced to split their approvals for phase 1B and phase 2 in order to get necessary SPD backing. Phase 1B is committed; phase 2 will require another vote in the Bundestag in a couple of years https://sldinfo.com/2021/06/the-bundestag-budget-committees-green-light-on-fcas/ . (Maybe the 3.5 bn euro each is actually only for phase 1B.)

FCAS seems a lot further along than Tempest.

Less Hair

2nd Sep 2021, 13:00

No worries. The german way to politically finance things is to fund them in slices. So they can be committed to some long term program but still need to get their green lights here and there. They even size their slices to stay below certain thresholds.

ORAC

11th Jan 2022, 06:57

Here we go again…..

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/01/10/new-german-government-revisits-tornado-replacement-options/

New German government revisits Tornado replacement options

….And the French-German cooperation on FCAS is far from going swimmingly at the moment, according to Brandl, who blamed France’s Dassault for refusing to sign an industry contract for the aircraft portion of the program.

“Dassault is not ready to accept Airbus as a partner on equal terms,” he told Defense News. “They are saying, ‘We’ll do FCAS, but only by our rules.’”

With Dassault’s export order books for its Rafale fighter full, the company may see less reason to agree on an FCAS fighter and focus on upgrades for its own jet instead, Brandl argued. In that sense, German talk of of an F-35 buy may serve as a fall-back option, he added.

A Dassault spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a question about the status of the industry contract.

rattman

27th Feb 2022, 10:20

Germany announced FCAS program is a priority, they will be buying F-35's for nuclear sharing agreement and developing an EW version of typhoon

ORAC

21st Jul 2022, 21:13

I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked. Dassault demanding full control. Stop me if you've heard this before on previous planned programmes.

When Dassault say they are prime they mean not only, airframe but also engines, radar, FCS and everything else…

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/07/21/dassault-chief-confirms-fighter-prototype-delay-amid-workshare-dispute/

Dassault chief confirms fighter prototype delay amid workshare dispute

STUTTGART, Germany – The Franco-German-Spanish Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program remains in a monthslong standoff that risks pushing back the first flight of its signature fighter, a senior industry official said Wednesday.

The program was supposed to enter its next phase late last year, but has been held up as prime contractors Dassault Aviation and Airbus Defence and Space have been unable to agree on the division of work for the next-generation fighter (NGF) aircraft element, Dassault Chairman Eric Trappier said in a mid-year earnings press conference.

“On the next-generation fighter, Dassault must be the uncontested leader,” Trappier asserted, adding that there has been some “issues of interpretation” between the two companies on what it means to be the prime contractor.

Dassault said in its financial statement released Wednesday that while it is the prime contractor for “Pillar 1,” meaning the next-generation fighter, “The prime contractor/main partner relationship is still to be clarified.”

“Dassault Aviation is seeking a clear statement of acceptance of its role as prime contractor by Airbus Defence and Space for the NGF,” the statement said…..

The FCAS – also called SCAF, for its French name “système de combat aérien du futur” – program consists of seven technology “pillars,” of which the next-generation fighter is the centerpiece.

The other pillars include a new engine for the fighter jet, a next-generation weapon system, new remote carrier drones, advanced sensors and stealth technology, and an air combat cloud network. ….

Asturias56

22nd Jul 2022, 07:11

"Stop me if heard this before on previous planned programmes."

Never, ever heard of such a thing!! ;););)

Less Hair

22nd Jul 2022, 08:30

You can join as their slave anytime.

Finningley Boy

22nd Jul 2022, 13:24

The Tempest, I imagine technology demonstrator, is due to go aloft, that's the ambition inside the next five years. Mind you I'm sure you lot are already well and truly on top of the story.

FB:}

ORAC

4th Dec 2022, 04:26

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/12/01/aircraft-makers-lumber-toward-deal-for-europes-next-gen-fighter-jet/

Aircraft makers lumber toward deal for Europe’s next-gen fighter jet

STUTTGART, Germany — France’s Dassault Aviation on Thursday said there is a breakthrough industry agreement that would finally allow the trinational Future Combat Air System effort to proceed.

In a Dec. 1 interview with French publication Le Figaro, Dassault CEO and Chairman Eric Trappier revealed that “all road blocks have been lifted” for the partners to move forward on Phase 1B, the pre-demonstrator phase that would work on developing a fighter prototype.….

He told Le Figaro that Dassault has been confirmed in its leadership and architect role for the aircraft, and has been reassured that its intellectual property would be safeguarded in the program.

He asserted in the interview that the prototype fighter would be ready to fly by 2029, two years later than originally planned. A Phase 2 contract, which would launch the prototype development period, is expected to be signed in the next two to three years, he added.

Airbus confirmed the industry agreement had been signed in a Thursday email to Defense News. “All industry partners of the Future Combat Air System have now signed the respective agreements in order to launch the program’s next phase, the demonstrator phase 1B,” said Airbus CEO Mike Schoellhorn.

Yet the update remains just one more step before the final contract signature between the three participating nations and their industry partners, which will occur “once relevant processes have been concluded in the respective customer nations,” Schoellhorn added.….

The contracts will be formally brought before France’s military procurement office, the Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA), which is managing the trinational program. According to a Thursday statement by the French Ministry of Defense, the goal remains to field the system of systems, including the next-generation fighter, around 2040.

ORAC

27th May 2023, 07:21

Talk about shooting themselves in the foot when Tempest is their as an alternative….

https://www.brusselstimes.com/522510/dassault-ceo-opposes-belgian-participation-in-scaf-fighter-aircraft-programme

Dassault CEO opposes Belgian participation in SCAF fighter aircraft programme

The CEO of French group Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, is opposed to European countries that have opted for the US F-35 fighter jet – Belgium in particular – joining the Future Air Combat System (SCAF) programme, which links France, Germany and Spain.

“I don’t see why I would give work to the Belgians today,” Trappier said at a hearing on Wednesday before the French Senate on the 2024-2030 Military Programming Law, LPM, project proposed by Armed Forces Minister Sébastien Lecornu…..

Belgian industry is urging the federal government to join one of the new-generation combat air system projects currently under development, whichever it may be, taking care not to decide in favour of the SCAF or the British-Italian-Japanese Tempest – now GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme).

Through its security and defence think tank, the Royal Higher Institute for Defence, IRSD, the Belgian Ministry of Defence has launched discussions with industry with a view to possibly participating in a Next Generation Combat Aircraft Technologies (NGCAT) programme.

However, the Dassault CEO, still angered by the previous Belgian administration’s choice in favour of the F-35A Lightning II from US group Lockheed Martin to replace the ageing F-16s, on Wednesday showed himself to be hostile to Belgian participation in SCAF.

“I hear about the Belgians, that’s all very well. But I would then advocate setting up an F-35 club within SCAF,” he told French senators. “I don’t really see the point in putting more F-35 countries into SCAF... Why would I make room in my factory, in my design office for people who have chosen the F-35?

“I hear people say: we could give jobs to Belgian companies straight away… No. If it’s imposed on me, I’ll fight. I don’t see why I would give jobs to Belgians today.”….

henra

27th May 2023, 09:13

“I hear about the Belgians, that’s all very well. But I would then advocate setting up an F-35 club within SCAF,” he told French senators. “I don’t really see the point in putting more F-35 countries into SCAF... Why would I make room in my factory, in my design office for people who have chosen the F-35?

Hmm, dunno. That doesn't inspire confidence to me. Sounds like he is scared that people can compare to F-35 and find out, the French thingy is inferior. That's how I would read it as a prospective Customer or contributor (@German Defense Secretary, please take note, before you thow dozens of billions at this guy!)

ORAC

15th Jan 2024, 06:03

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024/01/12/france-buys-42-rafale-jets-for-more-than-55-billion/

France buys 42 Rafale jets for more than $5.5 billion

PARIS — France has ordered 42 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation in a deal worth more than €5 billion (U.S. $5.5 billion), the Armed Forces Ministry announced Friday.

The purchase comes as French lawmakers express concerns about the Franco-German project to develop a successor to the Rafale. The Future Combat Air System (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/06/21/fcas-air-chiefs-rally-around-collaborative-air-combat-concept/), as it’s known, isn’t expected to enter service before 2045 or 2050, according to the French Senate’s defense committee.

The French defense procurement agency notified Dassault Aviation as well as equipment suppliers Thales, Safran and MBDA of the contract for the fifth production phase of the aircraft, the ministry said.

“This is excellent news for our sovereignty and security, and for our armed forces, which will benefit from additional Rafales with modernized operational capabilities,” Armed Forces Minister Sébastien Lecornu said in a statement.

The Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and the French Air Force in 2006, and has seen action in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, Iraq and Syria.

The latest contract brings the total number of Rafales ordered by France to 234, including a special order in 2021 for 12 fighters to replace aircraft transferred to Greece.

Export orders for the Rafale currently stand at 261 new aircraft; customers including Egypt (https://www.defensenews.com/global/mideast-africa/2021/05/04/egypt-bumps-up-its-rafale-fleet-by-30-new-planes/), India (https://www.defensenews.com/global/2023/05/17/reports-defense-news-correspondent-arrested-in-india/), the United Arab Emirates and Indonesia. In addition, Greece (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2021/01/25/greece-and-france-ink-3-billion-contract-for-rafale-fighter-jets/) and Croatia have each bought 12 secondhand Rafales from the French Air Force.

The new aircraft, meant for the Air and Space Force (https://www.defensenews.com/interviews/2023/06/15/six-questions-with-frances-air-and-space-force-chief/), will be one-seater versions and fitted to the F4 production standard (https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2023/03/07/french-air-force-receives-first-of-upgraded-rafale-f4-fighter-aircraft/), for which development started in 2018…

The jets are to received upgrades to the F5 standard in the 2030s, according to the ministry.

The Senate has called for Dassault Aviation to start work on the upgrade — which might include a loyal wingman UAV based on the European nEUROn combat drone program — as early as 2024 due to the uncertainty around the Future Combat Air System.

The FCAS could cost two to three times as much as a Rafale, while exports would be subject to approval by the German partner, senators said in a November report (https://www.senat.fr/rap/a23-130-8/a23-130-8-syn.pdf)……