Air Chief Marshal Sir Stuart William Peach, GBE, KCB, ADC, DL said ......

[Admin_Guru]

On the BBC Alan Marr TV show; Sir Stuart Peach was asked if soldiers were paid enough - after a conversation focused on under-Manning below a 'critical' number of 80k.

On several occasions Marr repeated the specific question, quoting servicemen being limited to 1% pay rise whilst other government employees enjoy 2-3%. In response Sir Stuart stated that members of the U.K. Military do not hold salary as their primary focus for work. They instead serve to enjoy serving in uniform. This he 'heard' from the shop floor. He also devolved responsibility solely to the AFPRB.

You do not need to be a cynic to have seen many a (former) senior officer make an honest statement reflecting reality after he has conceded his uniform, and so such betrayal of our servicemen is in keeping with precedents all too frequently set.

..... and so Sir Stuart, as the cost of living gently spirals, and given the plateau to which service pay has adhered for many years now, do not be surprised at discontent within the UK military, or recruitment being problematic, because the worker bees do not get paid enough. The advisors to the Ivory Towers need to have a word with themselves. We understand that our Government is bankrupt, and that there is no further funding, but that does not excuse what you did today in public - an honest opinion costs nothing.

[Frostchamber]

He faces the same conundrum as every serving brasshat, and the same criticism that has been levelled at many others for many years now. They are locked into a system where they can try to exert influence internally but cannot depart from the official line externally until after they leave office. If they did they would have to resign. Maybe you think they should, but that is another question. I don't comment on the rights or wrongs of the system, but that's how it is.

On one point of detail, the government is far from bankrupt. It has choices on how and where it spends its funds.

[Herod]

On one point of detail, the government is far from bankrupt. It has choices on how and where it spends its funds.

Isn't one of the first priorities of any government the protection of it's citizens?

[Frostchamber]

Isn't one of the first priorities of any government the protection of it's citizens?


Absolutely. I didn't comment on whether in making its current choices the government is getting the balance right.

[Onceapilot]

On the BBC Alan Marr TV show; Sir Stuart Peach.
On several occasions Marr repeated the specific question, quoting servicemen being limited to 1% pay rise whilst other government employees enjoy 2-3%. In response Sir Stuart stated that members of the U.K. Military do not hold salary as their primary focus for work. They instead serve to enjoy serving in uniform. This he 'heard' from the shop floor. He also devolved responsibility solely to the AFPRB.



Disappointing fudge. He will no doubt be quoting figures from a survey that shows 0.1% more service personnel that replied, listed "job satisfaction" above pay. Of course, you only have yourselves to blame for that. As for Peachy, he has been eating a lot of loyalty pills. :)

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

Admin Guru

Personally, depending on the context of Sir Stuart’s comments, I think the remuneration package is actually fairly reasonable when you consider it to civvy street. I grant that the 1% and 0% rises since 2011 have meant that our pay has gone down by ~10% in real terms if you have run out of pay increments in your current rank. If you were lucky enough to be promoted or start your current rank then your income will have pretty much stagnated in real terms for the past 6 years. But, people are not leaving because of the pay - it’s the terms and conditions of service, the perilous state of quarters/messes and our working environments, the constant churn of the past 20 years’ Op tempo, the malaise that has generally set in amongst us all that fiscal decisions are running the military and the lack of charismatic but intelligent leadership at 3-star and above in all 3 Services (where it would seem the “old boys’ club” only promote the 2-stars in their own likeness). Worst of all, it is the loss of trust that drives so many away and the fact that from SAC to roughly 2-star just about all allowances, management decisions, travel and discipline decisions are mired in the most ridiculous scrutiny and process that many are getting fed up with it. Further, as we drive away that ability to make a decision as an NCO or Officer we bog ourselves down in ever more bureaucracy - more and more MAA regulation, pointless JPA-tracked courses stating the bleeding obvious using so-called “online learning” and “practice bleeding” down to the lowest common denominator because a very small number can’t behave or need looking after. NCOs and Officers are no longer allowed to be leaders and we indoctrinate them at Dartmouth/Sandhurst/Cranwell and thence on at Shrivenham in our weak processes and make them think alike. Only really on Ops can the NCO or Officer use their head, that is why many look forward to ops, but if they come around as often as they have been in recent years then the work-life balance with family life starts to become a significant stressor.

That is why we lose our people, it is not the pay, it’s the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ that does it. Funnily enough (not that funny really) the US military are having serious retention problems as well - we share many of the same issues.

Sunday rant, over...

[Chugalug2]

Excellent post, LJ, if I may say so. I left 44 years ago, so only get to know what present service life is like from such as PPRuNe. So what do I know? Well very little admittedly, but your post ticks so many boxes in what impressions I have gained that I believe you have got to the nub of it.

In particular you point to the MAA. There I do have some knowledge, and it gells exactly with what you say. It is a self perpetuating bureaucracy, bent on ticking boxes to serve a system. Unfortunately that system is not about Air Safety, but about VSO Safety. The MAA was founded upon the Haddon-Cave Report, which in turn stated a Golden Period of UK Military Airworthiness existed in the late80s/early90s. That was a lie, protecting as it did those VSOs who had deliberately set out to subvert Military Airworthiness in order to make short term savings. It goes on ensuring a cover up which prevents the essential reform of UK Military Airworthiness happening. So the Military Aviation Authority is in itself a Flight Safety hazard.

Add to that the reduction of the powers of a subordinate commander that you describe, so that all power resides at 2* and above, and one can see how the Star Chamber rules all. The problem is that the Star Chamber does not seek to defend the nation but rather itself. Unless and until Station and Unit Commanders regain the powers that are needed in order to command the real Royal Air Force, ie that behind the Station Gates, then the spiral of decay will continue and avoidable accidents will go on cutting away at its operational capability and skilled personnel.

[MPN11]

No idea what it's like now, of course, but wasn't our pay 'abated' to reflect our quite generous non-contributory pension scheme?

Anyway, LJ makes some good points. I lost heart in my later years to a lack of anything resembling 'leadership'. As an OF-4 [I think that's what I was] I was generally treated as an office-boy. No respect at all, just word-processor fodder ... and my 1* would completely ignore my "Good morning, Sir" when I passed him in the corridor.

Where DID leadership go?

[Chinny Crewman]

That is why we lose our people, it is not the pay, it’s the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ that does it.

Sunday rant, over...

Agree with everything, a most excellent Sunday rant!

[Basil]

So, I made the right decision going from OF-2 to 2/O? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, correct. Then there is the X Factor: I don't know what that is now or which way it goes but it serves as another fudge factor. Also food and accommodation charges and how these impact on short trips, detachments etc.

Certainly the expectation was that an away day should not see you out of pocket but that admin trying to ensure that was a real embuggerance. Before I departed I had to get prior approval for T&S for a trip ordered by the very man that ordered the trip.

I used to use a standard claim to bugger him about though I often didn't spend my allowance which completely buggered up his forward planning and then submitted claims late :)

[Heathrow Harry]

"Isn't one of the first priorities of any government the protection of it's citizens?"

In theory - in practise it's the protection of it's voters.................... and then the companies/professions who give them the most $$$$

[[email protected]]

I was told yesterday by someone still serving that both RAF Odiham and RAF Benson Officers messes were closed due to infestations - one of rats and the other of cockroaches. If true this is perhaps symptomatic of the parlous state of the military infrastructure caused by years of under-investment as contractors get away with doing less than the minimum to maintain the integrity of the buildings and real estate.

Just another one of those thousand cuts!

[Basil]

I was, recently, present at a speech by CDS and, in general, it was something of a pep talk aimed more at young officers. Nothing controversial or any 'secrets'. Pretty much what I would expect from a gentleman in his rank and appointment.

How many of you here, were you in his position, would damage your career by taking a position of opposition to your political masters?

[YellowTom]

He’s right that the kids of today join for the experiences and having their 20s and early 30s full of paidfor fun, rather than a decent salary. Unfortunately this means those in some operational and uniquely technical skills have just mastered their trade when they have the option to leave.

[MPN11]

...
Certainly the expectation was that an away day should not see you out of pocket but that admin trying to ensure that was a real embuggerance. Before I departed I had to get prior approval for T&S for a trip ordered by the very man that ordered the trip....On numerous Staff visits [sorry, I became a Quill Warrior, 3rd Dan] i used to watch my colleagues scrabbling around to make tuppence on their allowances by eating at MaccyD or the local Chippy. I used to enjoy a bottle of wine on HMG whilst having my 3-course hotel meal at their expense. It was an interesting insight into how people looked at Pay and Allowances.

[MSOCS]

Dear OP,

If you haven't realised by now that anyone above the rank of 3* is a politician first, Serviceman second, you should wake up. When the House of Lords / Knighthood / debenture at BAe Systems as a non-Exec Director calls, you don't start throwing spears at the Government.

You want to influence the pay of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines, go and write to your MP.

[Melchett01]

MPN, correct. Then there is the X Factor: I don't know what that is now or which way it goes but it serves as another fudge factor.

X Factor these days is 14.5% and as we all know is a compensatory addition to take home pay to take into account the buggeration factor of Service life. Hence why some of the FTRS contracts which are limited in their duties don't get it. But the so what there is that the core pay for the job i.e. achieving actual operational effect is only ~85% of pay. Looked at that way, I think we offer pretty good value for the professional skills we posses across all branches and trades.

Incidentally, many look at pay in another way if they hit a pension point. Given that from that point on they could leave drawing a pension and start a second career, they are in fact effectively working for a rate of pay equivalent to salary - pension. When people work that one out for the first time you certainly see the cogs turning!

[Al R]

If you've been in 18 months and if you're having a good time and if you're making £20,000 whilst your mates are on street corners, 1% pa delta is neither here nor there and probably isn't a big factor. So, to an extent, he could be correct.

[Melchett01]

If you've been in 18 months and if you're having a good time and if you're making £20,000 whilst your mates are on street corners, 1% pa delta is neither here nor there and probably isn't a big factor. So, to an extent, he could be correct.

You're probably right, and it's most likely the more senior and experienced personnel who feel as though pay is an indicator of how they are progressing in life who will feel it the most. Especially if trying to balance mortgages and other expected commitments associated with getting older.

But if, as I think they are trying to do, the demographic make up if the Forces are adjusted so the composition is mostly junior staff on short term contracts vice full careers, then going forward pay will become less of an issue if getting out from a desk and doing something interesting is more important. In fact, if you follow that logic chain to the end, we hit a point where pay features very little in the arguments, with the result there is little imperative to do much about it if many personnel are perceived to be happy. Then we end up with permanently lowered pay relative to what it might otherwise had been in a full career organisation.

[Archimedes]

For what it's worth, here's the transcript for those who didn't see it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/12111703.pdf

[newt]

Any chance the RAF will recall pilots like the USAF? I’d be up for it! .............Or maybe not!😂😂😂

[Pontius Navigator]

Crab@, about contractor maintenance, while the contractor has his margins squeezed it also falls the the contract monitor to hold him to account. I had it easy on a small unit; I knew the contract and I knew the maintenance needs.

On a large unit you probably need a contract maintenance committee to keep the contractor to the mark.

I have just come off a cruise ship that hut the spot. They give passengers a phone number to report problems they may have missed. Loose floor tile, rang hotline, next day fixed.

How many people just live with problems and then moan? Eventually your 'to do' jobs becomes huge, prioritized, and jobs shelved.

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, re pay-pension, I remember one Jock McColl back in about 1968 working that one when redundancy was also offered. It didn't take him long to realise pension plus wheelbarrow of cash equalled more golf.

[orgASMic]

Any chance the RAF will recall pilots like the USAF? I’d be up for it! .............Or maybe not!😂😂😂

There is a desk downstairs whose occupant is trying to do almost that. The quota is to re-recruit 500 recent leavers of all flavours per year.

[MPN11]

...
Incidentally, many look at pay in another way if they hit a pension point. Given that from that point on they could leave drawing a pension and start a second career, they are in fact effectively working for a rate of pay equivalent to salary - pension. When people work that one out for the first time you certainly see the cogs turning!Indeed! As I approached 50, and with the Redundancy Scheme waving in the wind, those calculations proved very interesting. I was not planning for a 2nd career, but instead enjoying the fruits of my earlier labours.

One large spreadsheet later, a couple of salient points emerged:

Deducting potential pension from current pay meant I was flogging myself at MoD for a pittance (I think it worked out at about £18k pa.)
My pension income would drop me out of the higher-rate tax bracket, with consequential benefit to tax on the interest earned on substantial savings.


Unsurprisingly, I grabbed the Redundancy money and ran away to the hills, hotly pursued a year or so later by my redundancy-successful wife ;)

[BEagle]

The quota is to re-recruit 500 recent leavers of all flavours per year.

Good luck with that optimistic idea!

Perhaps the chap at the desk downstairs should first establish why those 'recent leavers'....left?

[[email protected]]

PN - How many people just live with problems and then moan? Eventually your 'to do' jobs becomes huge, prioritized, and jobs shelved. true but when you constantly report those problems and receive no action, you eventually give up and 'live' with them or sort them yourself.

I don't know what the contract monitors actually do but it certainly isn't holding the contractor's feet to the fire.

[Jumping_Jack]

Speaking as someone who hasn't yet retired I do wonder what planet Stu Peach is on. The yearly reduction in pay, and it is a reduction (my take home dropped by £370 as a result of this year's pay round) and the continual 'management of decline' do not make the Armed Forces an enjoyable place to be anymore. Despite the 'red tape challenge' I have yet to see ANY bureaucracy swept away particularly with the endless justification and authorisation to spend funds that have already been justified and authorised as part of the budgetary cycle! Counting down the days.....

[Wander00]

Don't know the guy, but the SO who wrote his brief should be taken off to a quiet corner and debagged, IMHO of course

[Pheasant]

What has not been mentioned anywhere above is the dilemma the UK finds itself in and the impact on retention. Whilst the huge deficit is suppressing public sector pay, and thus that of the Forces, the economy is booming in the private sector with near record job lows. What does this mean? It means it is easy to leave and get a job.

When I was a lad in the RN conflict was not really an issue and life was all about Standing NATO Groups and cocktail parties around the N Atlantic and Med. The really lucky ones went on world deployments via HK and AUS. We all loved it but no medals.

But then we went to war in the 90s and it remained like that until today and people wanted to go to the war zones and get their medals. Retention was pretty high and the pay good. Now things are changing. The tempo is still high due to lack of kit but not many medals. Pay remains good but dropping off rapidly...retention bites.

Re leadership. I can’t talk about the RAF (comments above not good) but the RN seems pretty well led. 1SL, VCDS and Fleet Cdr are top blokes, with some good guys behind them to follow. I would put money on 1SL or VCDS to follow Peachy as CDS.

[[email protected]]

Yet the RN still find themselves in a manning crisis - 2 new carriers and no sailors to sail them - great blokes they may be but perhaps the Sea Lords have got their priorities wrong.

And frankly, being CDS of a desperately underfunded military with a massively top-heavy structure and limited real capability doesn't sound like much of a career high point.

[banterbus]

"from the shop floor"... :rolleyes:

Yeah, those who had the time to fill out the lengthy surveys, and usually those who are completely sold by the military.

This is the reason things don't get better, those upon high think everything is peachy! (double drum symbol smash).

With respect to messes, the real infestation is a little bug called ISS! They have destroyed them, this is a fact. :D. Lets not get started on service accommodation, shear amount of hours spent at work, lack of allowances and lack of personnel.

I'm out of here.

[Pontius Navigator]

Crab, in essence knowing what the contract covers and the performance standard. That said, the last contract I was involved with, the contract starter, a B grade CS, cut out all the measurable criteria such as time scales
Made it meaningless.

[roving]

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stuart Peach, is held in high regard internationally by Britain’s allies. He will go now go on to become the first British chairman of the Nato Military Committee for more than two decades.

The new CDS is 'be the best' General Nick Carter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sir-nick-carter-chief-defence-staff-army-general-afghanistan-iraq-a8278246.html

[Shackeng]

Admin Guru

Personally, depending on the context of Sir Stuart’s comments, I think the remuneration package is actually fairly reasonable when you consider it to civvy street. I grant that the 1% and 0% rises since 2011 have meant that our pay has gone down by ~10% in real terms if you have run out of pay increments in your current rank. If you were lucky enough to be promoted or start your current rank then your income will have pretty much stagnated in real terms for the past 6 years. But, people are not leaving because of the pay - it’s the terms and conditions of service, the perilous state of quarters/messes and our working environments, the constant churn of the past 20 years’ Op tempo, the malaise that has generally set in amongst us all that fiscal decisions are running the military and the lack of charismatic but intelligent leadership at 3-star and above in all 3 Services (where it would seem the “old boys’ club” only promote the 2-stars in their own likeness). Worst of all, it is the loss of trust that drives so many away and the fact that from SAC to roughly 2-star just about all allowances, management decisions, travel and discipline decisions are mired in the most ridiculous scrutiny and process that many are getting fed up with it. Further, as we drive away that ability to make a decision as an NCO or Officer we bog ourselves down in ever more bureaucracy - more and more MAA regulation, pointless JPA-tracked courses stating the bleeding obvious using so-called “online learning” and “practice bleeding” down to the lowest common denominator because a very small number can’t behave or need looking after. NCOs and Officers are no longer allowed to be leaders and we indoctrinate them at Dartmouth/Sandhurst/Cranwell and thence on at Shrivenham in our weak processes and make them think alike. Only really on Ops can the NCO or Officer use their head, that is why many look forward to ops, but if they come around as often as they have been in recent years then the work-life balance with family life starts to become a significant stressor.

That is why we lose our people, it is not the pay, it’s the ‘death by a thousand cuts’ that does it. Funnily enough (not that funny really) the US military are having serious retention problems as well - we share many of the same issues.

Sunday rant, over...

So nothing has changed since I retired 42 years ago then?

[Melchett01]

Glib comment, and I’m sure very tongue in cheek. I wonder how similar today’s situation really is?

It’s exactly as described. My most relaxing period in the last decade has been Ops!

[Basil]

It’s exactly as described. My most relaxing period in the last decade has been Ops!
Think I can safely say that the most relaxing part of my time was a ground tour in ATC :ok:

[NutLoose]

Sorry but

On several occasions Marr repeated the specific question, quoting servicemen being limited to 1% pay rise whilst other government employees enjoy 2-3%. In response Sir Stuart stated that members of the U.K. Military do not hold salary as their primary focus for work. They instead serve to enjoy serving in uniform. This he 'heard' from the shop floor. He also devolved responsibility solely to the AFPRB.

He really believes this horsesh*t he is spouting, in that case perhaps he should consider reducing his pay grade to that of a Flight Lieutenant, if it's just the fun of the uniform life he prefers.

[Shackeng]

Sorry Melchett, I think you misunderstood my question, I was referring to the comparison made by shackeng.

To be honest I was referring to promotions slightly lower down the scale, but the principle appeared to be the same.

[Brian W May]

Do you all remember that poem that used to do the rounds in the 80s - you can still Google it. Forgive my spelling, you all know why.

"Shyt Promotes Growth."

Considering Mr Peach 'heard it fwom the twoops' . . .

[NutLoose]

I fear for the RAF when you have people like this running it, and they wonder why retention is so bad, I am surprised he hasn't put forward a pay cut for the chaps in these Austere times.... Ohh wait, 1% being less than inflation, he has already signed up for that. I wonder what other trinket to add to the list they have promised him for selling his fellow RAF colleagues short.

[Basil]

Attended a dinner with ACM Sir Stuart Peach last year and have to say that his presentation amounted to a pep talk for young serving officers and was of little interest to old retired types like me.

[Brian W May]

I fear for the RAF when you have people like this running it, and they wonder why retention is so bad, I am surprised he hasn't put forward a pay cut for the chaps in these Austere times.... Ohh wait, 1% being less than inflation, he has already signed up for that. I wonder what other trinket to add to the list they have promised him for selling his fellow RAF colleagues short.

Can't see it any other way of looking at it frankly . . .

Back to lions led by donkeys?

[alfred_the_great]

Attended a dinner with ACM Sir Stuart Peach last year and have to say that his presentation amounted to a pep talk for young serving officers and was of little interest to old retired types like me.

Good. Long may that tradition continue.

[Basil]

Good. Long may that tradition continue.
Good point, except that most present were old retired types like me. ;)

[LoeyDaFrog]

Can't see it any other way of looking at it frankly . . .

Back to lions led by donkeys?

From my own experience of the man in question, he is far from being a donkey

[Basil]

From my own experience of the man in question, he is far from being a donkey
I agree. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that any VSO is a donkey.
They have to operate within the fiscal constraints placed upon them by the Treasury.
Whether one agrees with the distribution of hardworking taxpayers wealth is another matter.