Flight engineers

[Dr Jekyll]

Practically an extinct species now, but I'm curious to know more about them.
Did the airlines train them internally or did they train at their own expense then start looking for a job?
Did they come from a ground maintenance background?
What were the medical requirements, was it a way of getting onto the flight deck without a class one?

[brakedwell]

The RAF was a major source of Flt Engineers until the 1980’s and ground engineers also obtained Flt Eng licences after passing type technical exams and completing the required number of supervised sectors. Not sure what the medical requirements were, apart from a good bladder to hold copious amounts of beer. Many were blessed with an evil sense of humour and poor eyesight as they always made a beeline for the ugliest available girl. It was sad to see them go and their absence left a big gap in the crew. :sad::sad::sad:

[john_tullamarine]

Sources depended on airline philosophy and local mores. Anywhere from junior pilots marking time to well-trained, highly experienced technicians.

Ansett, for instance, took all its FEs from licenced ground mechanic staff .. and, I presume, TAA/Qantas likewise. This often presented some problems with flight training as the gingerbeer background led to their going up the wrong path (ie bits and pieces) in troubleshooting .. but, after a bit, they got their stuff in a pile and were a great fliight deck asset. In the post-89 disaster in Australia, many (who had a CPL) moved into the right seat and, subsequently, command positions.

Overnights .. another story altogether ...

[Lou Scannon]

I was flying at a time, in the Services and Civil, when the other crew members started to depart. First to go were the Air Eletronics or radio men, then the Navigators and finally the flight engineers.

I missed having the "Gingerbeers" around until I retired. They often had a really good hangar engineering background and could come up with solutions that kept the show on the road. Not to mention their skills in acting as referee between the two pilots!

[pjac]

In Australia, it was common practice for each airline to select candidates from their ground staff (engineers) and provide the training. There was a formal, technical examination set by DCA and a medical. The airline provided the subsequent, line training followed by a proficiency check. An annual medical check was required to be performed by an endorsed medico and it was similar to the six monthly exam, for the pilots. A similar situation existed in the U.K. though the examination (in the 60's) was set by The Board of Trade, Fees were paid to a HM Office and the medical usually done by the R.A.F. in London or an appointed medico-the exam was set by the ARB. B.O.A.C. attempted to integrate their F/E's in the sim and on line with some promising results and a few airlines tried to follow suit. A good F/E was a man who operated the systems and understood them in such a way that a fault in the system was dealt with in a much better way than today's "Automatics", particularly with a system that can kill everyone on board, painlessly and insidiously, such as pressurisation. Cost of the extra man's salary coupled with the odd pilot who resented any intrusion in to his domain and was a factor in this crewman's demise. pjac

[Bergerie1]

I spent all my flying career with flight engineers and they were worth their weight in gold. When BOAC changed to 3 man crews after the advent of INS they did not "attempt" to integrate the flight engineers, they DID integrate them, and they became invaluable members of the team - not only working their panel but monitoring the flight path, reading checklists and, of course, being able to troubleshoot and fix things beyond the average pilot's ken.

I know nothing about the medical requirements, but their backgrounds were many and varied, some came from the Navy, some from the RAF and many from the hangars where, as licensed engineers, they had developed an intimate knowledge of the aircraft they flew on.

It was a sad day when they were replaced by the automatics. Their third pair of eyes picked up many a slip, preventing minor mistakes from becoming major incidents.

[mustafagander]

Here in Oz the airlines trained FEOs from the LAMEs. A few ex military were also recruited but there were few of those. FEOs are required to hold a class 1 medical like ATPL. A very interesting line of work because you sat in the middle and so had a clear view of every instrument on all panels hence a crook one was obvious. We generally saw ourselves as able to advise on all facets of the operation because we tended to be less loaded up when things went bad, so we had a bit more spare capacity to think things through. Once you knew your stuff you were generally a bit ahead of the captain's requests for things like diversion fuel and so they'd buy you a beer.

An excellent you tube clip about FEOs is named Stuck in the Middle - FEs Lament 2010. A good fun watch!!

[Brit312]

I spent 31 years of my working life as a Flight Engineer,

My background was a 5 year apprenticeship followed by two and half years working in the hanger. Using this as my experience background I went and sat the CAA basic F/E exam and then went for a medical at the RAF centre in London. From there I eventually got offered a job as a Cadet F/E and so proceeded to do the Type Technical and sit the
exam. This followed by basic sim [cardboard bomber] , local flying route flying under supervision and then hopefully checked out on your own. Shortly afterwards the airline unfortunately went bust.

I then was offered a position with the "Better on a Camel airline" and the course her was even longer
Type technical sim and flying the same but added to this a introduction to navigation obtaining a radio licence , learning Morse code, interpretation of weather charts and perhaps more which I have long forgotten, but one thing that was different was the Type Technical exam was the same as for the pilots but the F/E had to do extra tuition looking at the system in greater depth so as to be issued with their Limited approval on that aircraft [ In house qualification]

Renewal of your licence was based on a six monthly Sim Check, and an annual route check. The F/E also had to do a six monthly type technical check which involved a day long technical question and answer session along with visit to the hanger [ in house requirement]

The Medical was a Class One with a medical examination annually. The need for hearing test, X-rays , ECG were the same as a pilot. Near the end of my career there was talk of F/E only requiring a class 2 licence but i fail to remember whether this was taken up

Now in the USA F/E worked under different rues and only required a type 2 medical

It was a good life

[Bergerie1]

Brit312,

I bet the Connie is fun!

[TowerDog]

I spent 3 months of my life as a Flight Engineer, or Second Officer on the B-727-200.
Had plenty pilot experience prior, including left seat Twin Otters, DC-3s and B-747-200.
Always enjoyed working with F/E’s but never thought I was going to end up in the F/E seat myself.
After my regular gig went South in 2000 another job came up and I was able to choose between B-767 F/O, or B-727 F/E.
I chose the F/E position to avoid commuting and to try something new. (How hard can it be?)
Big mistake.
Training was pretty intense for a lazy pilot type like myself.
All kinds of flows, big U and little U, and had to preflight the cockpit and all 3 seats in 20 minutes, instructors with stop watch in hand.
Finished training and passed my exams then on the line.
Flew a total of 92 hours in the F/E seat and realized this was not for me. With airplane changes during the day one was running from gate to gate pre-flighting new planes, inside and out, paperwork and the 20 min cockpit inspection, outside walk around, fixing coffee makers for the F/As, etc. Then during flight sitting sideways hopeing nothing would happen.
After a few months I bid to a window seat and got the B-767 right seat.
Proud of my F/E ticket, but we were not “real” Flight Engineers as no mechanic or maintenance background were required, just an FAA written test for the F/E turbo jet license and a second class physical. After 9/11 I was laid off from my cushy B-767 job and ended up left seat again on the B-747-200 with real F/Es for a third rate freight outfit. Now I had a better appreciation for their job as I had tasted it myself.

[vctenderness]

A key requirement for Flight Engineers was a liking for chicken.

As in ‘your crew meals are Lobster, filet steak and chicken” Captain “I’ll have the lobster” First Officer “I’ll have the filet steak” Engineer “Whopee chicken”.:ok:

[Bergerie1]

They also had a great propensity for getting pilots into trouble on the ground, but keeping them out of trouble in the air!

[brakedwell]

They also had a great propensity for getting pilots into trouble on the ground, but keeping them out of trouble in the air!

Standby for amusing horror stories ;)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A contender for the hardest job in civil aviation, ever, must be FE on Concorde. I remember a talk given by Roger Bricknell (ex BA Conc FE) at the Royal Aeronautical Society where he stated that you needed a certain type of brain for that job - talk about multi-tasking, the FE would commonly have two check lists running concurrently (and the aeroplane didn't wait for you to catch up), and if there was a problem, maybe a third also concurrently running.

Anyone who has had the privilege of travelling on Concorde's flight deck for a complete flight will have seen first hand just how integrated those crews were. In my humble opinion as a mere PPL, the pilots had it easy on the beautiful white bird compared to the FE. And of course there two of them!

If anyone ever says men can't multi-task, point them at a Concorde FE panel.

[Peter47]

Whilst F/Es were valued members of long haul crews in Europe there seemed to more antagonism from pilots (or at least their union) in the U.S. and Canada with ALPA insisting on all new cockpit entrants being pilots when the jets were introduced. F/Es were often referred to as Second Officers to keep them in their place. Different airlines went different ways. There were some long industrial disputes. I believe that Western Airlines sacked all theirs in the early 60s. New cockpit entrants with Pan Am were all pilots but could serve as F/Es until promoted and were covered by the Flight Engineers International contract.

Inter-union disputes were not just a UK thing.

[TowerDog]

. F/Es were often referred to as Second Officers to keep them in their place.

At least in my company there was a difference: Second Officers were pilot types sitting in the F/E seats, whereas Flight Engineers were called just that. (They were also called 2-stripers, but not to keep them in their place)

[blind pew]

https://youtu.be/_4TRSYhrEJE
First job was three pilot, the advantage was watching the more experienced guys flying.
Second was with bergeries’ lot ..generally very good as they had a different chief who wouldn’t put up with cowboy pilot behaviour although there is a famous incident which nearly lead to an airframe loss in another fleet.
My third had guys who had served apprenticeships followed by working in the hanger. Mostly good but sometimes diifficult as they were all in the military together with the captain of senior rank. When I started an ex ww2 FO recounted a story where they were taking less than legal fuel..in the end he picked up his suitcase to go back to the hotel..the skipper caught up with him and told him he would take the extra fuel but couldn’t be seen by the FE to have made a mistake.
We latterly converted first officers onto the third seat when we were going to two crew..a years ground course. The FEs were retrained as pilots.
Great times..mostly.

[Heathrow Harry]

Once you got the big fans reliabilty was sooooo much better than the days of the large piston engined jobs - and electronics came in with FADEC etc so the FE became unnecessary - or rather not cost-effective

Bit like a Navigator - once essental , now seems unbelievably quaint

[Herod]

H.H. They have never been unnecessary, and cost-effectiveness is a subjective topic. I wonder how many air-frames would have been saved. Once an emergency occurs in a two-crew aircraft you have one pilot effectively operating single-pilot, while the other deals with the emergency. How much better to be able to retain the two-crew safety, while a third member deals with the checklist, problem etc?

[LOMCEVAK]

I really enjoyed flying with a Flight Engineer on the crew because they were a great CRM leveler as they were not trying to become a captain! So saying, I flew with one ex-RAF F/E who went to the airlines, swapped seats and became one of the finest captains that I ever had the privilege of flying with. A role change like that gave him a phenomenal understanding of working as a crew (as well as him being a really pleasant person).

We had one F/E in the company who had an interesting career path. He started off in the army (REME), then became an army helicopter pilot, then 22 Regt SAS. Whilst in that role he trained as a F/E and flew the line with a major UK airline as part of his task. He then left the regular army and became a full time F/E with the same company but maintained military service with one of the TA SAS Regiments. Finally, he left the TA and settled down to be a F/E - but what fantastic stories he told when we went down route! Happy days.

[Bergerie1]

Herod,

I am inclined to agree with you.

[Brian 48nav]

Exactly my thoughts - after my time as a Herc' navigator I became an ATCO with CAA ( now NATS ) and most of my career was spent at London Centre and Heathrow. It was amazing how often the phrase ' cockpit/flight deck workload' was used to tell ATC to 'shut up' or in conversations with pilot mates over a beer.

My argument was why not use a third crew member who was not a pilot ? He/she would combine the former roles of signaller/nav/flight eng and have no aspirations of trying to replace either of the 2 drivers. They could have been taught a few basic flying drills to help out should either of the 2 drivers become incapacitated. More importantly they could have prevented the apparent wish to commit suicide by a pilot which I believe has happened on several occasions.

[bugged on the right]

I imagine it was like having Davros sittling behind the pilots. (Dr Who) Had many happy years as an FE and believe the role was eliminated solely for financial reasons.

[ExSp33db1rd]

As a young, new, Second Officer flying around Europe en route to the BOAC Worldwide destinations, I mentioned to the F/E that maybe I'd brush up my schoolboy German for Frankfurt slips, and perhaps learn Italian, or maybe Spanish, for the Rome and Barcelona slips ? Don't bother, lad, he replied, you only need one phrase in any language - "Two beers please, my friend will pay."

Sound advice, tho' I forget now what the Chinese version was.

Salt(s) of the Earth, I vowed that I'd never fly without a F/E ( after all, they were the only ones who ever really knew what made everything tick ) but now, as the owner of a single seat microlight - I are one !

[TowerDog]

Many moons ago I flew for a company that used to fly Electras, way before my time, but I heard some stories.
One story was about this Electra F/E: They all sat just behind the pedestal and between the pilots. The rudder trim was also right about there.
The F/E used to pull out his penis and place it on the rudder trim wheel.
Every time one of the pilots reached back without looking, to crank in a bit of trim, they would get his penis in their hand instead.
They F/E thought this was hilarious of course, not sure if the pilots enjoyed it as much.
Good old days.

[Krystal n chips]

" Well known M.E operator" and their B720's sometime in the 80's.

Arrives on stand with the good old JT3 T/R stuck open problem. F/E grins and waves down to me attached to the headset...then slams the engine in a ( vain ) attempt to get offending T/R to reset. Alas.

Finally get onto flight deck and greeted by said F/E ( whom I had met many times and got to know well ) offer my "sentiments" as to his efforts when outside, big grin from F/E and then ask if he has the well known JT3 rectification kit in the hold, which they do. Point out a third body would be useful ...cough.

CRM ( F/E version ) ....leans over to F/O, now quietly trying to hide under the rudder pedals, and "helps" him out of the seat to assist us with the sledge hammer / large piece of wood rectification. T/R stowed thereafter.

Back on board, would I like a coffee?...never known to refuse, so he asks CC member ( male ) for two coffee's please. Gets a "nice" reply about "mother (rude word) engineers" and what we can do with ourselves. Alas, again. F/E was, as they say, a big lad, CC member not so.

F/E hoists CC member off the cabin floor and asks if I would like to eat as well ?......it would have been churlish to refuse of course, thus one was suitably refreshed before we put the world to rights, came to a mutual understanding as to the fuel, ahem, discrepancy figure ( Capt was starting to mutter ) F/E stops the muttering and log is duly signed.

Only ever met one bad one, belonging to a " well known now defunct LHR based operation" who was actually fawning over the four ringed ego and offering him sandwiches from the crew meal platter.

[Heathrow Harry]

Herod - the problem with that argument is that you can never have enough people in the cockpit .... if 3 are better than two then 4 must be better etc etc

Lets face it - air travel is unbelievably safer than now than it was in the days of FE's in every cockpit - that's not an arguement to say that removing FE's made things safer of course - it shows that Aircarft, ATC, systems, engines have all improved amazingly. There just is no good reason for an FE these days on commercial aircarft

[Lordflasheart]

Greetings Murg ! Flight Engineers - Couldn’t have done it without ‘em.

Dr Jekyll asked where they came from …. Apart from all the many varied sources mentioned above -

Three singularly unique origins, to my personal knowledge -

A Belvedere Aircrewman who wangled a full VC10 Flight Engineer course as his EVT leaving present.

A Huey door-gunner with the Rhodesian Air Force who did his entire Flight Engineer course on the ‘smuggled’ 720s because there were no sims or other ground training facilities available.

Started his RAF National Service at 18 as something very ordinary but when they found out he’d done a bit of engineering they made him a Neptune Flight Engineer. He didn’t say if he got a course, probably just handed him the Pilots Notes.

Many of the ones I knew, owned and flew light aeroplanes – very well indeed.

LFH



..................

[FLCH]

http://https://youtu.be/_4TRSYhrEJE (https://youtu.be/_4TRSYhrEJE)

Sat sideways for 7 years on the DC-10 and 727, lots of laughs and good times.

[staircase]

then there was the joke;

'why is a F/E to be compared to a stage coach driver?'

'because he sits behind 2 horses arses and stinks of manure!'

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

On the topic of flight engineers, there is a website I can highly recommend. It contains an absolute mine of information about a career as a flight engineer, including a virtual book written by a former flight engineer uploaded to the site in the form of 9 huge PDF documents covering what would be nine substantial chapters if it was ever to be published in print form.

The website is called “AIR NEW ZEALAND's FLIGHT ENGINEERS” and you can access it at....

http://flight-engineers-air-nz.********.co.nz/

In the pages index, scroll down to “A DIRECT LINK TO GARY SOMMERVILLE'S ARTICLES” and click on the link. The nine PDF documents cover Gary's early career as a licensed aircraft engineer, obtaining a job with TEAL (Tasman Empire Airways Ltd.), becoming a flight engineer on Lockheed L.188 Electras, then his time as a flight engineer on DC-8-52, DC-10-30 and Boeing 747-219 jetliners with Air New Zealand (formerly TEAL).

However, be advised that the site appears to have limited bandwidth per month, so if you all try and download those PDF documents (all nine of them) at the same time, you will run into a wall. It's a case of first in, first served, but if you cannot get access to them now due to a rush, you need patience and you will eventually manage to download the documents, which are lavishly illustrated.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Grrrrrrrr.....for some reason the link to the website refuses to post correctly at this group.


To input it manually, type the following into your address-bar:


http semicolon forward-slash forward-slash flight-engineers-air-nz dot b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t dot co dot nz


Hopefully you will be able to access it that way. For some reason this group refuses to post the b_l_o_g_s_p_o_t bit of the url.


Make sure you don't input the underscores between the letters. That was the only way I was able to even get this group to post the word. I don't know why that particular word appears to be banned at this group.

[thegypsy]

Real Flight Engineers as against Pilot Panel operators on the likes of Tridents were worth their weight in gold.

Ideal for hiding the booze down in the Lower 41 !

[gulfairs]

I joined TEAL as a Flight Engineer and flew for 6 years as such, and made it to F/O.
In my opinion the biggest mistake the heavy jet operator made was to get rid of the FE/O.
One engine saved from destruction is worth more than an FE/O lifetime earnings.
and the safety of a third set of eyes on the environment is beyond a cost approach.
One day the industry might learn from its mistakes and re-introduce the FE/O.

GLG Richardson ([email protected])

[India Four Two]

Kiwithrottlejockey,

Here’s a TinyURL of your link:
https://tinyurl.com/y92z6f98

For some obscure reason, PPRuNe hates the “blog that shall be nameless”!

[4Greens]

When I did time as a Second Officer in Qantas, part of my duty on long haul was to relieve the Flight Engineer so he could rest. This required simulator training and testing. This knowledge stood me in good stead for my entire career in the airline.

[Warmtoast]

B-36 FE's needed good eyesight to supervise the multitude of dials on their panel as in this still from 'Strategic Air Command'.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Strategic%20Air%20Command%20Film/B-36FlightEngineer2.jpg

[India Four Two]

Warmtoast,

I immediately thought of that picture, when reading this thread. As fans of "Strategic Air Command" know, the FE with his back to the camera is Harry Morgan aka Colonel Potter from MASH.

Here's a great 360º virtual image - "Never seen so many bl**din' dials!":

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/062/B-36J%20Engineer.html

[flash8]

kiwithrottlejockey

On the topic of flight engineers, there is a website I can highly recommend. It contains an absolute mine of information about a career as a flight engineer, including a virtual book written by a former flight engineer uploaded to the site in the form of 9 huge PDF documents covering what would be nine substantial chapters if it was ever to be published in print form.

Many thanks, absolutely =fantastic= documents, certainly this should be a book, and a damned good one!

In fact the PDF's are almost book "ready"..

The pictures and illustrations are amazing. And it really is substantial, book would be probably be a good 400+ pages!

Things I learned so far:

DC-8 had no backup hydraulic system
DC-8 more aerodynamically stable than 707
DC-8 stopover at Alice Springs was incredulous!
DC-8 could do FL410 but as service ceiling was rare in practice
DC-10 rear mount engine was truly rear-mounted (in case of catastrophic failure)
The golden era of flying changed for the author around 1973, when transitioning from the DC-8 to DC-10, after that much of the excitement went downhill
A lot of training (I guess common at the time) was in the real a/c
Full motions Sims introduced around 1966... (cost around $0.5K million + $0.1K Million for housing)
Layovers could be up to six days as intercontinental flights were much more infrequent up until the early 70's, after this, with the DC-10/747 they became much less common (and much less fun) as frequencies were ramped up.
Much more...

[Warmtoast]

India Four Two (your #38)

Here's a great 360º virtual image - "Never seen so many bl**din' dials!":

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...0Engineer.html

Fascinating, but panel only seems to run to dials in columns for six prop engines - where are the four jet engines controlled from?

[Captain Dart]

I think the jets were controlled by the copilot.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

India Four Two (your #38)



Fascinating, but panel only seems to run to dials in columns for six prop engines - where are the four jet engines controlled from?

The throttles for the jet engines are above the skippers head.

[Warmtoast]

TheChitternFlyer

Did a complete 360 of the image and found the jet engine instrument dials are in front of the pilots on the front panel.