Hobart accident

[SICKorSKI]

News breaking now in Tasmania

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/helicopter-crash-at-hobart-airport/news-story/98f4d15f7807210429eab3333bf89a9b

[mickjoebill]

News breaking now in Tasmania

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/helicopter-crash-at-hobart-airport/news-story/98f4d15f7807210429eab3333bf89a9b

Radio report at 20:00 hrs local from abc reporter says one killed one “critically injured”
Helicopter came down hard on grass just off runway.
Hobart Airport closed to flights.

Long weekend in Melbourne due to Melb cup so it’s likely to be busier than usual??

Mjb

[John Eacott]

Helicopter crash at Hobart Airport (http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/helicopter-crash-at-hobart-airport/news-story/98f4d15f7807210429eab3333bf89a9b)

UPDATED: The aviation watchdog has launched an investigation into the fatal helicopter crash at Hobart Airport and is calling for witnesses.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said two interstate investigators would shortly travel to the site to start the probe.
The fatal crash involved a single engine AS350BA Squirrel helicopter believed to be operated by Rotorlift which performs aerial duties for the state’s emergency services.
“A team of two Transport Safety Investigators from Brisbane and Canberra will travel to the site shortly to begin their investigation,” an ATSB spokesperson said.
“The ATSB encourages anyone who witnessed the accident to call 1800 020 616.“No further information about the accident is available at this time.” A preliminary report into the air disaster will be handed down in about 30 days.

EARLIER: Police say a person has died and another is in a critical condition following a helicopter crash at Hobart Airport.
Hobart Airport has been shut down and people have been moved outside.


http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/aea246729e46a8146113b023f63b815b?width=650

A spokesman for the Australian Transport Safety Bureau confirmed the incident.


“The ATSB has been advised that there has been an accident at Hobart Airport involving a helicopter with two people aboard,” the spokesman said.

“We understand that emergency services are in attendance and we will be gathering more information before deciding whether to launch an investigation.”

Witness Adele Khoury said the helicopter came in from the Pittwater area, and was flying about tree height before performing a loop and descending into a nose dive.

“There was a puff of smoke,” she said.

Emergency vehicles have converged on the scene, including two ambulances.

One ambulance was seen speeding back towards Hobart city just after 6pm.

Mrs Khoury said the crash occurred about 5.30pm.

[Ascend Charlie]

was flying about tree height before performing a loop and descending into a nose dive.

I have experienced a similar thing in an AS350 at high speed, moved the cyclic too fast and got a jack stall and control lockup. But I had altitude to recover, perhaps these unfortunates did not.

[gulliBell]

Performing a loop from tree top height doesn't leave much room for error, especially in a helicopter...

[Twist & Shout]

Performing a loop from tree top height doesn't leave much room for error, especially in a helicopter...

Witness quote from someone picking up her husband.
To be taken with a grain of salt.

If anything like a “loop” was performed, I’d suggest the “maneuver” may have been associated with some sort of control malfunction. Pure conjecture on my part.

RIP the person that has died.
Early reports are it may have been someone quite well known in the Tasmanian industry.
My thoughts are with those that are directly affected. A very sad time.

[gulliBell]

Local police expect to interview the survivor in 24 to 48 hours....they should be able to work out what went wrong quite soon I would expect. Prangs at airport boundaries from arriving helicopters tend to be fuel starvation related, however from the description in this instance it seems like loss of control for whatever reason...

[Nubian]

however from the description in this instance it seems like loss of control for whatever reason...

That's probably why such a manoeuvre is prohibited in this aircraft in the first place......:ouch:

If anything like a “loop” was performed, I’d suggest the “maneuver” may have been associated with some sort of control malfunction

Not a control malfunction, as this WILL happen to a 350 if the rotordisc is being loaded with enough G. It is flying the aircraft outside it's approved envelope, but it will not be the first time it has been done with an accident as a result either. If the report is correct about flying low and then a loop, I'd say a good yank in the cyclic when coming around the loop to recover realising being too low, would leave you with NO escape and hitting the ground as a result.....

[gulliBell]

Somehow I don't think a pilot would attempt a loop in view of the control tower. I think safe to assume the witness report of a loop was actually something else. The police said it just suddenly nose dived into the ground.

[Nescafe]

For loop, I’d read orbit.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Posts on Facebook are saying RIP Roger Corbin :( Sad to see its a long time stalwart of the Aussie industry.

[growahead]

From ABC news: "Inspector John Ward said it appeared to break in half and plummet to the ground from a height of 200 metres."

[Kulwin Park]

Tragic, very tragic!!!! RIP Roger :-( You were a fantastic guy, who was very thorough about your business ways, who built up a great business based on your skills & knowledge!

[mickjoebill]

From ABC news: "Inspector John Ward said it appeared to break in half and plummet to the ground from a height of 200 metres."

The police spokesperson DID NOT say the tail broke off and it fell.
In response to a question about damage he said it had fallen 200 meters the tail had broken off and that it was a write off.
Press conference here, relevant section begins at 3.10 mark.
(Edit: new direct link)
https://www.facebook.com/themercury.com.au/videos/10155931747948408/

Spoke to ABC Hobart, who said their reporting was based on the above 9pm press conference.


Mjb

[Twist & Shout]

That's probably why such a manoeuvre is prohibited in this aircraft in the first place......:ouch:



Not a control malfunction, as this WILL happen to a 350 if the rotordisc is being loaded with enough G. It is flying the aircraft outside it's approved envelope, but it will not be the first time it has been done with an accident as a result either. If the report is correct about flying low and then a loop, I'd say a good yank in the cyclic when coming around the loop to recover realising being too low, would leave you with NO escape and hitting the ground as a result.....

Yes yes, many (most?) of us are very aware of the “jack stall” characteristic of the AS350 model. Almost certainly including the pilot that died.

My suggestion was more along the lines of a servo breaking/becoming detached, causing a manovour that resembled a loop to an unknowledgable bystander.

Again; Pure conjecture.

[What Red Line?]

Like this one? https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070321X00315&key=1

[KiwiNedNZ]

Why remove the name ??? Its all over Facebook with people expressing condolences. And also Hobart newspapers.

[Pettibone]

Hobart airport flights return to normal scheduling after fatal helicopter crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-08/investigation-continues-into-chopper-crash-at-hobart-airport/9128602)

[Flying Binghi]

Why remove the name ??? Its all over Facebook with people expressing condolences. And also Hobart newspapers.

I see the name is confirmed, though if you believe what gets posted to facebook then I've got a bridge in Sydney harbour that I can sell yer cheap..:hmm:

Be careful pasting facebook claims to other forums as litigation may result.

[Twist & Shout]

Like this one? https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070321X00315&key=1

Yes, exactly like that one.
For the third time: pure conjecture on my part, and every pilots nightmare.

RIP

[KiwiNedNZ]

Actually Flying Bingi the posts on Facebook were made by people who I have known in this industry for about 20 years so pretty confident that what they are saying is factual. Cheers.

[Rotor Work]

VH-BAA
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-109/


Deepest sympathy to Allana & the girls, RotorLift staff, family and friends.
Hoping that the injured pilot makes a speedy recovery.

RIP Roger

RW

[gulliBell]

Looking at the photo of the remains of the helicopter it's quite remarkable that anybody survived that accident.

[Vertical Freedom]

Such a tragedy....Rest In Peace

Sounds like some catastrophic failure, leading to the impact?

[RINKER]

Could a hydraulic failure cause this on a 350 ?

R

[SICKorSKI]

Rest in Peace Roger, and condolences to all family.

[gulliBell]

Could a hydraulic failure cause this on a 350 ?


A hydraulic malfunction which causes the power piston to extend/retract can cause loss of control in any helicopter, even those with dual hydraulic systems.

[RINKER]

Thanks gullibell. I understand that but I meant total loss of hydraulics.
I've only flown R44 and SA341 with hydraulics off for training which were
Manageable. But I thought the 350 was more difficult.

R

[Twist & Shout]

Thanks gullibell. I understand that but I meant total loss of hydraulics.
I've only flown R44 and SA341 with hydraulics off for training which were
Manageable. But I thought the 350 was more difficult.

R

The hydraulic system on th AS350 relies on a rubber belt.
Failures are necessarily manageable.

[gulliBell]

The hydraulic system on th AS350 relies on a rubber belt.
Failures are necessarily manageable.

Yes, but simple hydraulic pump failure aside, malfunctions can happen in hydraulic servos that cause them to do unintended things.

[Vertical Freedom]

350 hydraulic failure (I've had one) is no fun but manageable, especially by high time experienced Pilots. Jack-stall or servo-transparency is also easy to manage which only occurs at high power setting in high G maneuvers. Approaching a landing the lever would be going down, no high G's so no chance of jack-stall. Something else went profoundly wrong, some catastrophic failure leading to a lose of control. A training maneuver gone wrong is out of the question for RC.

Rest in Peace Roger & condolences to the Family

[Rotor Work]

Update from ABC
33 year old pilot released from hospital

A 33-year-old pilot John Osborne has been released from the Royal Hobart Hospital as aviation authorities continue to investigate the helicopter crash at Hobart Airport.

Fatal helicopter plunge: Investigators probe Hobart crash site where rescue pilot Roger Corbin died - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-09/investigation-into-roger-corbin-fatal-helicopter-crash/9133184)

Another Update

Hobart helicopter crash survivor John Osborne 'recovering well' after tragedy that killed Roger Corbin - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-09/survivor-of-rotorlift-hobart-helicopter-crash-john-osborne/9134812)

[SuperF]

Something else went profoundly wrong, some catastrophic failure leading to a lose of control. A training maneuver gone wrong is out of the question for RC.

There is more than one highly experienced, well respected pilot out there who has bent an aircraft during a training maneuver. No matter how good you are, everyone is capable of making a mistake, nothing is out of the question...

[gulliBell]

Apparently they were doing hydraulics off training when control was lost for yet unknown reason.

[Evil Twin]

Apparently they were doing hydraulics off training when control was lost for yet unknown reason.

Interesting, my initial thought was the possibility of a practice hydraulic failure gone awry. Sad loss and thoughts with Rogers and the extended Rotorlift family.

[Nigel Osborn]

Has the lucky survivor been able to say what happened?

[RVDT]

Has the lucky survivor been able to say what happened?

Probably - but only to an Air Accidents Investigator?

[SRFred]

Hobart chopper crash: Pilots doing emergency drills before fatal fall, preliminary report confirms - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-18/preliminary-atsb-report-into-fatal-hobart-chopper-crash/9267648)

[catseye]

ATSB report VH-BAAhttp://https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-109/

[John Eacott]

Preliminary report

Published: 18 December 2017
At about 1635 Eastern Daylight‑saving Time[1 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-109/#footnote1)] on 7 November 2017, a Eurocopter AS350BA (AS350) helicopter, registered VH-BAA, departed Hobart Airport, Tasmania for a local training area to the northeast. On board were a pilot and instructor and the flight was the third training flight of an AS350 helicopter-type endorsement for the pilot.
The endorsement training was conducted over a two-day period. It included ground school training, and three flights that formed the practical component of the training syllabus. One instructor had assessed the first two flights but, since the third focussed on emergency procedure training, the occurrence instructor elected to fly with the pilot.
The pilot held a Commercial Pilot (Helicopter) Licence and a valid Class 1 Aviation Medical Certificate. The pilot had experience flying other turbine helicopter types, on various types of operations. The pilot’s existing low-level and sling approvals, which were reportedly held on a foreign licence, were also to be assessed during the AS350 type endorsement.
Following arrival in the training area, the pilot’s general helicopter handling and low-level flight were assessed. At about 1715, the pilots reported to air traffic control that operations in the training area were complete and requested a clearance back into the Hobart Airport control zone, to conduct practice emergencies. The approach to the airport reportedly involved conducting a simulated hydraulic system failure to the helicopter training area X-Ray (Figure 1).
Training Area X-Ray was located adjacent to and west of the main runway and was familiar to the pilot, as this area was used in the previous day’s training.
Figure 1: Approximate flight path of the helicopter (not to scale), showing the approach to the X-Ray training area, where the helicopter slowed before making an abrupt left turn and impacting terrain.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5773812/ao2017109_figure-1.jpg?width=463
Source: Airservices Australia, modified by ATSB
The instructor reportedly announced the simulated failure to the pilot just prior to commencing the approach. The pilot responded to the simulated failure by stabilising the helicopter and reducing the airspeed to about 60 kt, in accordance with the manufacturer’s hydraulic failure procedure detailed in the aircraft’s flight manual.
The flight manual emphasised that, without hydraulic assistance, the flight controls exhibited force feedback requiring the pilot to exert additional force on the controls to maintain 60 kt in level flight. The manual also stated that, after transitioning to the recommended safety speed range, the second phase of the hydraulic failure procedure was to transition to slow run‑on landing[2 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2017/aair/ao-2017-109/#footnote2)] (at around 10 kt) via a flat final approach in to the wind. The pilot reported that, as the helicopter decelerated and descended towards the landing area, they noted the additional control forces required.
A video camera installed at the airport recorded footage of the helicopter’s final approach. As the helicopter descended toward training area X-Ray, it initially appeared to be controlled and in a flatter than normal approach profile. The helicopter then appeared to slow into a high hover about 30 ft above the ground. Seconds later, it commenced an abrupt nose-down turn to the left and impacted the ground.
The training procedure section of the helicopter flight manual cautioned pilots to:
…not attempt to carry out hover flight or any low speed manoeuvre without hydraulic pressure assistance. The intensity and direction of the control feedback forces will change rapidly. This will result in excessive pilot workload, poor aircraft control, and possible loss of control.
The impact forces caused significant damage to the cockpit area, particularly the left pilot side (Figure 2).
Figure 2: Damage to the helicopter showing significant impact damage to the cockpit area and left landing skid tip, consistent with a left nose-down attitude on impact.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5773813/ao2017109_figure-2.jpg?width=463
Source: ATSB
Seated on the left side, the instructor sustained fatal injuries, while the pilot seated on the right was seriously injured.
The investigation is continuing, and will analyse the evidence obtained during the on-site investigation phase. Additional work will include a review of the:


conduct of training operations
helicopter systems
any environmental influences that may have affected the operation of the helicopter at the time of the accident.



..........

[Cyclic Hotline]

Is this a similar situation? https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fb8_1511190190

[henra]

Is this a similar situation? https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fb8_1511190190



This looks more like a tail rotor (control) failure.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Bears some similarity to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3yncJ2TF80

[Nubian]

Bears some similarity to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3yncJ2TF80

Now, that was a Hydraulic belt failure which was misidentified as a tail-rotor failure.

[[email protected]]

You would have thought that the high loads on all three controls would have been a clue.

[nigelh]

Not sure how you could mistake hydraulic failure with TR failure I agree! As Crab says surely the control loads would be obvious . There have now been a shed load of Hyd off accidents in the AS350 , some with very competent pilots , which makes me think something else may be happening during these training sessions. Are they letting the reservoirs deplete and putting hyd back on before they have filled ..or similar ?? Just asking ...

[RVDT]

You would have thought that the high loads on all three controls would have been a clue.

Not sure how you could mistake hydraulic failure with TR failure I agree! As Crab says surely the control loads would be obvious.

Think about this one.

HYD Pump failure will remove assistance from the TR servo immediately yet the accumulators on the MR servo's would result in no immediate change.

Of course you would have a HYD caption and HORN blaring. If you didn't notice the caption and were a bit slow on the uptake as to what is going on in
the first instance you could suspect a TR control failure as the pedals would be pretty stiff and thats all. (AS 350 B & BA sans TR accumulator)

Continuing on the MR accumulators can deplete rapidly and asymmetrically which makes for more fun and if you are slow as was the case here very
interesting especially if you have further effect of yaw rate from stiff pedals.

On the 350 if you have a HYD failure you need to get the aircraft sorted, slowed down if necessary and then turn the HYD OFF on the collective. This will dump the
accumulators and silence the HORN.

Some people get confused with the use and purpose of the HYD TEST switch. Reason being it is the only one they actually use regularly during pre-takeoff checks
and they assume it is the HYD OFF which it isn't. Correct use of the HYD TEST is imperative.

To all intents and purposes to be sure the HYD TEST switch should never be used in flight operationally. It has a training function in flight but that needs careful consideration.

extract form EASA EXPERT DEPARTMENT / CERTIFICATION DIRECTORATE - OEB Report -

Simulated Hydraulic failure

(Except EC 130 B4 & T2 and AS 350 B3 equipped with the optional dual hydraulic system):

- In steady flight conditions, simulate the hydraulic failure by depressing HYD TEST push button on the System Control Unit (Honeywell or SCU console panel):
HYD + Gong sounds while the student adjusts speed to obtain between 40 and 60 Kt.
CAUTION: The Instructor must ensure that the trainee adjusts the speed and attitude prior to isolating the hydraulics.
- Once safety speed is set, and prior to activating the hydraulic isolation switch reset HYD TEST pushbutton to restore hydraulic pressure in tail rotor accumulator (except for AS 350 B3e, B and BA).
- If necessary during the training exercise, hydraulic assistance can be recovered immediately by setting the HYD TEST push button to the UP position or by resetting the hydraulic cut off switch to ON.
- If the HYD TEST pushbutton is not reset on the control panel, no hydraulic assistance can be restored. Before hydraulic isolation with the switch on the collective lever, do not forget to reset the HYD pushbutton on the console.
- Do not let the student attempt hover flight or low speed maneuver, as the intensity and direction of the control feedback force will change rapidly. This will result in a loss of control
On previous versions of AS350 equipped with a HONEYWELL console control, do not silence the HORN by using the HORN switch.
The HORN will be silenced when the pilot selects the hydraulic cut-off switch to off.
If the pilot uses the HORN switch to silence the HORN before using the hydraulic cut-off switch, this crucial step could be forgotten. This could then result in significant unbalanced lateral cyclic feedback forces, especially at low speed, if one of the lateral accumulators depletes before the other one.
In addition, de-activating the HORN using the HORN switch, makes it unavailable to warn the pilot of low or high rotor RPM.

Pay attention to the following:

- Hydraulic accumulators gives energy during approximately 20 seconds, in proportion of controls movements, so reduce to safety speed in this time frame,
- Anticipate to perform a shallow approach,
- Perform a running landing,
- Hover flight or any low speed maneuver must be avoided,
- Keep in mind that higher All Up Weight increase the risk of aircraft loss of control at low speed,
- The statistics show that failure to strictly comply with the procedure consequently increases the risk level.

Notes:

Left hand collective lever is not equipped with “HYD” switch,
- To be well prepared, brief your Trainee for setting the collective lever HYD switch to on, if necessary.
- If the Instructor decides to take over the controls, he must plan to continue the flight up to the landing
without the hydraulic assistance.
- CAUTION: when hydraulic pressure is restored in flight, the forces disappear which can lead to an abrupt left roll movement.
- Anticipate the power application to avoid induced increase in nose-up attitude.

[Nubian]

RVDT,

Right on the money. But the reference to the B3e in your training notes is not correct. That info must be prior to the retrofitting of the load compensator after the accidents with the Chinese weights (what a brilliant idea:ugh::ugh:)

The New York and Hobart machines both were BA's.....

[RVDT]

Nubian,

I think it is the current OEB Report but probably before the B3e retro. dtd Revision 4 : 06 08 2012 probably now covered by OSD info held by the manufacturer.

It was my comment to add that B and BA don't have a compensator.

The "single family" goes in order of release B,D,B1,B2,BA,BB,B3,B4,B2 VEMD,B3+,B3e and finally T2.

Dual HYD models is another kettle of fish with their own little traps!

[gulliBell]

All that makes for scarey reading for someone not familiar with AS350. I'm surprised there aren't more loss of control accidents with hydraulics off training in this type.

[Hughesy]

First training flight at a pretty decent company whom I worked for when I first went to Canada back in 2006.
It was a B1 Squirrel.
When we went to do a HYD off landing, the check and training guy said he wanted me to touch down on the piano keys. Ok I said. Thinking thats where he wanted me to run it on from. A target to aim for.
On short finals the conversation went like this.
Him "your going to overshoot"
me "No I'm not, I'm going to touch down on the piano keys and run it on" (like he asked)
Him "but your going to overshoot the PK"
me" I will as I'm running it on"
Him " you can't run it on, there is nowhere to run it on in the tundra, you need to hover first"

OK, so at this point I realised just what he wanted. For me to hover over the keys and land it with no forward speed.
So doing what the C and T guy asked, I started to slow down to try and come to a hover over the spot. I should have gone round at this point.
As I came to a hover, I was still tail low and was struggling to level the ship.
Next thing we are going backwards. With both of us now on the controls it was a fight between each other and the machine.
Next we spin 180deg and end up being nose low towards the ground. I tried to get had back by hitting the accumulator dump switch but nothing occurred!
Finally after a wild ride he hit the hyd test switch and we got hyd back!
A few wobbles later and everything was under control.
It was pretty bloody close to being a disaster.
He didnt say much at all.

From now on i ensure this doesn't happen to me again during my check rides, and also when I do C and T myself, the whole event is discussed prior and the hyd test is reset before the accumulator is dumped.

Scary ****

[SASless]

Reading all these posts one thing stands out as if it had sirens blaring, a high vis paint scheme and flashing strobe lights all over it......the design, layout, and complexity of the systems, procedures, and mis-matched control forces are flat screwed up!

All that sets Pilots up for failure it seems to me.

At least the series seems to retain the spinning bits unlike one of its big brothers!

[RVDT]

And additionally there are the machines with yaw compensators -

The scenario - loss of hydraulics - pump belt has broken or pump puked.

People go - turn off hydraulics - inadvertently or ignorantly hit the HYD TEST.

Due to the requirement to unload the compensator after shutdown - pushing the switch will unload the compensator - which you do not need in flight and
HYD OFF will NOT unload the compensator. HYD OFF or HYD failed AND HYD TEST will dump the TR compensator hence the instructions above.

Reset HYD TEST then HYD OFF to recharge the compensator when training.

The reason for the compensator is that as they needed more thrust from the TR with the increase in gross weight they added a tab to the trailing edge.

Uncompensated machines have the same TR but at the lower gross weight it is manageable.

Heavier machines - you will lift yourself out of the seat before you get enough pedal fighting against the tab.

Back to the issue of the now dumped compensator - you ain't getting it back because you have no HYD pump.

More than a few have ended up on their side because of this and some very high time guys that I know personally.

DUAL HYD machines also have the ability to get airborne without the TR compensator charged and no pressure as a few have found that are no longer with us.

The preflight test has moved to post flight to try and address the issue on DUAL machines.

You need a very clear understanding of the issues on this type.

[gulliBell]

...You need a very clear understanding of the issues on this type.

I now understand enough about the system not to want to trouble myself with getting checked out to fly AS350.

[[email protected]]

RVDT the first instance you could suspect a TR control failure as the pedals would be pretty stiff and thats all. agreed, but only a control issue (stuck pedals) not a TR drive failure which is what was intimated by Nubians comment - hence why I mentioned other control loads.

However the rest of your info is very interesting and, like Gullibell, puts me off the idea of flying the 350. Perhaps an engine or transmission driven pump (directly, rather than via a belt) might have been a better design solution.

[gulliBell]

...However the rest of your info is very interesting and, like Gullibell, puts me off the idea of flying the 350.

Yep, fortunately for me my previous employers have kept me on medium twins and not asked me to fly AS350....all the while said employers have lost quite a few AS350 due to hydraulic, engine and other problems.

[Nubian]

Hughsey,

I tried to get had back by hitting the accumulator dump switch but nothing occurred!
Finally after a wild ride he hit the hyd test switch and we got hyd back!

Ok, it would not be the first time this training procedure has been done incorrectly! The check airman should know this very well before he can do a flight check imho, but some just think they know...... which is not enough.

The other part of your story, seems there was no briefing of the manoeuvre, as to transfer of controls if things go pear shaped. It is not a good scenario if 2 guys wrestle each other HYD off, and to top it off with no load compensator.. Amazing you did not crash, really.

Airbus came out with a mod a while ago addressing the issue with the HYD test button being used incorrectly for training. Post mod, the HYD caption will blink and therefore you get the GONG repeatedly instead of one time as it did pre mod. This is a direct result of training crashes and incidents.

I personally know a pilot which has part of the ''honour'' for this mod to be put in place. That happened due to 2 pilots (none being instructors) being clever, and wanted to use a ferryflight to do some ''training'', and ended up on the side with a brand new machine, with the HYD-test button still depressed.:ugh::=

Crab,

The belts installed now is a different type than the ones that used to fail, which probably came from a Citroen or a Renault in the 70's....:rolleyes:
On the DUAL Hyd machines there is a MGB driven pump, but that reduces the TBO of the MGB with 1000 flight hours.

[Twist & Shout]

Nobody seems to have mentioned, the hopefully never occurred scenario, where after coming to a hover (first mistake) and struggling “someone” turned the Hydraulics back on.

That might explain a violent maneuver from the hover.

Pure speculation.

[Mark Six]

The AS350BA was the Australian Defence Force ab initio helicopter trainer for almost 30 years, as well as being used by the RAN for utility and embarked operations during that time. A fantastic aircraft and extremely reliable, despite all the talk on this forum of engine failures and hydraulic disasters waiting to happen. In fact I am unaware of any actual hydraulics or engine failures during its time in military service. Hydraulics failure was taught as part of the basic syllabus and regularly practiced during the course, and has therefore been successfully handled by students literally thousands of times over 30 years. I don't know of a single instance of an aircraft being damaged while practicing this manoeuvre on pilot's course. The whole "emergency" was relatively easy to handle with proper instruction. Consequently I believe any accidents resulting from real or practice hydraulic failures are more likely a result of poor instruction/technique than poor design.

[[email protected]]

Mark Six - The Brit Mil have been using it since 1995 as a basic trainer, again with regular hyd off training and again, without (to my knowledge) any incidents so perhaps you are right.

[AEROMEDIC]

I spent more than a decade on AS350's and there was no issues with hydraulic pumps at any time. Regular belt replacement, maintenance checks carried out and there was never any hydraulic failures at any time in my employers fleet, nor any leased AS350's.
These a/c were mainly used for sling work.

[Doors Off]

Mark Six, you are nearly correct. Close but no cigar. ADFHS had at least 1 Perhaps 3 damaging (unsure of the categories, but at least 1 was a right off) incidents on hyd off on the BA’s. I went through on BA’s can’t recall if I was on the first or second BA course, we were taught to hover and manoeuvre in the hover hyd off. Accidents happened, thankfully no serious injuries. The Pomms had the legend Keith Champion to learn from, who was an outstanding flight instructor, mentor and champion that learnt his Squirrel craft at ADFHS prior to the World’s ****test cricket team getting BA’s and twist grip throttles.

I digress however, to suggest that the military was beyond reproach is incorrect.

[RVDT]

Mark Six,

As the comments point out it may be a cultural thing!

No doubt the aircraft does really have a good service record if managed and operated correctly.

I only did about 400 hours on the type and would jump in one again tomorrow.

The history of the ADF use is not as squeaky clean as has been pointed out already -

Australian Department of Defence Evaluation of the AS 350 BA
In 1997, following a hydraulics-out landing accident, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
tasked a formal evaluation of the handling qualities of the AS 350 BA with a hydraulic system
malfunction. The goal of the test program was to determine if the flight manual emergency
procedures, approach and landing techniques, and operating limits for the AS 350 BA required
amending due to control forces, handling qualities, or control authority during hydraulic
malfunctions. The result of the assessment was that, during hydraulics-out flight at high gross
weight, the substantially reduced control authority, the considerably increased control free play,
and the greatly increased control forces in all control axes were unacceptable and caused a loss
of control during low-speed flight.
The Department of Defence report (AR-009-993) is approved for public release and in part
concludes that, with respect to hydraulics-out flight:
• the reduced control authority in the collective was unacceptable;
• the high forces in the collective control were unacceptable;
• the reduction in servo authority in cyclic control was unacceptable;
• the cyclic free play was unacceptable;
• the high forces in the longitudinal cyclic control axis were unacceptable; and
• the high forces in the lateral cyclic control axis were unacceptable.

[gulliBell]

..The history of the ADF use is not as squeaky clean as has been pointed out already -

They certainly pranged more than one. I remember seeing a bent example in the RAAF Fairbairn hangar well before the 1997 example mentioned. I don't ever recall a Huey H model being bent during training, although I've got a hunch they probably scratched a few. Army certainly bent (and totaled) 206's during training, one of which I saw happen live at Oakey (which ended with one of those coffee meetings with the CO where there is no coffee, and mostly one-way chat). But of the bendings I know of, no 206 got bent during hydraulics off training.

In the civilian world, at least five AS350 write-offs occurred in the fleet during my time with employers who operated that type, due to hydraulic or engine failures, not including another one which got shot down through no fault other than the multiple bullet holes which caused its demise, plus another AS350 that had a hydraulics failure on take-off that through pure fortune and good luck resulted in a successful landing without a scratch much to the pilots surprise.

...and to conclude on the story of the demise of that AS350 due to bullet holes, the four trigger happy villains that caused said bullet holes were themselves promptly subjected to bullet holes delivered by the good guys, sufficiently to the extent required to cause their permanent demise. Some might say, more than sufficiently so.

[[email protected]]

RVDT - that extract for the report looks like someone trying to get funding for a new training helicopter by trashing the reputation of the old one.

It glosses over the words 'high gross weight' and implies the aircraft is unfit for purpose because of the control loads hyd out.

We all know that very little basic training is done at high AUM.

However that information does gel with what I was told in the late 90s - that the Aussies wanted rid of the 350 in that role.

Maybe they should have stuck to cheating at cricket..........:E:E

[gulliBell]

...However that information does gel with what I was told in the late 90s - that the Aussies wanted rid of the 350 in that role.


The cynic in me might suggest 'twas a cunning plan that was perfectly executed as it resulted not just in a nice new training fleet of twins with equally nice colour TV screens, with rotating bits that rotated in the correct direction, but also, contracting out of basic ADF helicopter pilot training which by pure chance might have been a sweet retirement opportunity for the boys from the right old boys' club. But I would have no inside knowledge of that, just pure speculation on my part :}

[heliduck]

I love the AS350 & have done run on landings with hydraulics off during check rides every 6 months for years now. I must say that even at -20 degrees OAT you sweat your arse off keeping everything under control, as mentioned it can be done & has been done repeatedly but I agree with the ADF report, unacceptable control forces. Unfortunately, as with any manufacturer, money is only invested in R&D when the sales drop off or the FAA forces them to, the AS350 is so good in most other areas that people will keep buying it even if you couldn’t train for hydraulic emergencies. Similar scenario to the old auto to touchdown vs powered recovery technique argument, if the liklihood of having a hydraulic failure is so low that it makes the liklihood of a crash during training the highest risk, should we train all the way to a run on landing or turn the hydraulics back on a few feet from the ground? I think we should keep training to a run on landing, but my daughter would probably agree with Rogers girls that we should not.

[Mark Six]

Mark Six, you are nearly correct. Close but no cigar. ADFHS had at least 1 Perhaps 3 damaging (unsure of the categories, but at least 1 was a right off) incidents on hyd off on the BA’s. I went through on BA’s can’t recall if I was on the first or second BA course, we were taught to hover and manoeuvre in the hover hyd off. Accidents happened, thankfully no serious injuries. The Pomms had the legend Keith Champion to learn from, who was an outstanding flight instructor, mentor and champion that learnt his Squirrel craft at ADFHS prior to the World’s ****test cricket team getting BA’s and twist grip throttles.

I digress however, to suggest that the military was beyond reproach is incorrect.
I never suggested the military was beyond reproach and I was aware of the 1997 incident. There were extenuating circumstances (very lightly built pilot recovering from a broken ankle I believe, with a heavily loaded aircraft?), and that incident occurred during refresher training, not pilot's course. I wasn't there so I won't comment on instructor technique...
The basic trainer was the UH-1B, not H. I trained on them, and saw one destroyed in front of me at Wagga when the transmission mounts broke at the bottom of an auto. They were a very durable and forgiving machine but we definitely bent a few of them.
Keith Champion was possibly the best hands-on pilot I've ever seen (and I'm sure he'd agree with me!). We were at the ADFHS (and other places) at the same time.

[Ascend Charlie]

The AS350 is a fine machine, but why engineer it with such fine tolerances that a simple delay in getting on the ground with a hydraulic problem can cause a fatality?

Make the hyd pump a lot more powerful, have a way of isolating the hyd pressure inside the system like the Bell machines do, and you will do away with the Hydraulic Transparency issues that are a total PITA in the 350.

I have had a scare in a 350 simply from enthusiastic cyclic inputs, which I never encountered in 10,000 Bell hours. And yes, we did have a lot of scrapes in B models during training, but mostly due to the insistence in taking almost every auto to the ground, whereas 99% of the benefits of doing an auto can be achieved in a power termination. But that's another thread.

[gulliBell]

...have a way of isolating the hyd pressure inside the system like the Bell machines do..

I'm not sure I understand that. Isolating hydraulic pressure inside the system might result in pressure lock on both sides of the servo power piston, causing it to jam, no? Or do you mean, if the fluid level in the system gets low, isolate the tail rotor servo and preserve any remaining hydraulic pressure for the cyclic servos?

[Hughesy]

Nubian

Yep, two guys on the controls wasn't good, and yes it was very lucky to have not been an accident.
There was no briefing prior to the event, and me only having 40hrs in the as350 at that time I was pretty green on it.
I discuss it prior to the C and t guys doing a check on me, and I discuss it when I do check rides on others.
My story was a lesson that I learned, and hopefully others can learn from it also.

[AAKEE]

I didnt fly the AS350.

I think for ( just about) all A/C, pilots with quite some experience on type, the confidence gets high. ”greatest A/C ever built”. ”No problems, did it a thousand times”.

Still, HYD malfunction on the 350 seems to kill people.

My guess is that the Australian evaluation is spot on, and heliducks post also indicate this.
A system should allow every kind of pilots to survive a malfunction, nut just Biggles on sunny day, but also pilots below avarage skill( yes, there has to be some of these, despite no one ever met one of them) on their not best day.

If it was a Robbie that this kept happening to...?

( I didnt fly the Robbie either, and Im a bit sceptical so).

[heliduck]

Still, HYD malfunction on the 350 seems to kill people. .

Just to clarify, I don’t think there’s any statistical evidence to indicate that AS350 hydraulic failures kill people, but TRAINING for hydraulic failures in the AS350 certainly causes some issues.

[Heliringer]

Just to clarify, I don’t think there’s any statistical evidence to indicate that AS350 hydraulic failures kill people, but TRAINING for hydraulic failures in the AS350 certainly causes some issues.

I think if you follow the Flight manual procedures you shouldn't really have any problems training for hydraulic failures in the AS350.
The problem happens when people get complacent or think they know better than the Airbus test pilots and decide to hover the machine hydraulics off, that's when control can be lost very quickly.

[heliduck]

I just re-read the article on the Vertical website regarding take offs with the tail rotor hydraulics turned off which is possible in the earlier B3’s, that article is also very critical of the complexity in the system & the functionality of the test sequence for pre-take off & for training. I’m sure it would not be difficult to have a spring loaded switch on the cyclic specifically for training, the functionality of this switch would only be activated by engaging a “ missile” type switch on the console. That way practicing for a hydraulic failure event the pilot could engage the switch which simulates the hydraulic failure, if at any stage during the training sequence things started to go pear shaped all you need to do is release the switch & hydraulics are restored. If you accidentally release the switch you get hydraulic function back, bugger, have to go around & start again.
This doesn’t help the “ light framed” people with man-handling the controls but it would save critical seconds when they’re needed the most.
Heli-ringer is right, follow the manual & all is good but a manual is an administrative control, engineering solutions are better. You can fly around at 60knots all day with the hydraulics off no problem, but get below translational lift speed & you’d need arms the size of Arnie’s legs to keep it under control.

[Cyclic Hotline]

So, let's forget whether this is normal operation or training for Emergencies. No need for swiss cheese in this analysis, how come is still acceptable on a contemporary certified helicopter?

[rotorspeed]

Out of interest, anyone like to say if they have had any actual hydraulic failures in the 350 series? And how hard was the emergency action of presumably a run on landing?

[nigelh]

I had a BA for 10 years and I don't think there are any real issues with hydraulics ! Yes , things get heavy when you get sub 10 knots and run on is better option if available but zero speed landings are quite possible if no other options . Also the sequence of buttons for hyd off testing are very precise and not too complicated even for me !!
My only issue with the type is the flimsy nature of the cockpit....I would rather hit the ground hard in any other type rather than a 350 ..even Robinsons are safer at that point !!!

[jellycopter]

I once had an issue with a 350B2 that could have been a disaster had altitude not been on my side. At about 2000ft, the hydraulics were isolated on the central collective (after simulating a slider valve seizure) and the student started to slow down too much. As airspeed decayed, he began to lose control in yaw (to the left) so I quickly said "I have control" and started a recovery. As I applied a significant amount of pressure to the right pedal to correct the yaw, my seat slipped back on the rail and I could no longer get enough movement on the yaw pedal to regain control. After a few tense revolutions where I unsuccessfully tried to dive on airspeed to get control back, I shouted at the student to switch the hydraulics back on. (There's only one switch on the standard 350 and it's on the central collective).
I wonder if the seat slipping on the rail could have contributed to this crash?

[Copy that]

Was ADS 33 really the correct reference document to assess a civil certificated rotorcraft such as the AS 350BA?

[rotorspeed]

So far it seems that Ppruners know of not a single actual hydraulic failure on a 350, yet know of many incidents and some fatalities practicing for the eventuality. Surely there must be knowledge of many actual failures amongst the huge collective experience here? Any offers again?

[fadecdegraded]

I know of 3 seperate cases of belts breaking that drive the HYD pump.
This was before the new style belts come on the scene.
All were a nonevent with the machines landing without incident and the spare belt that was already sitting over shaft being installed and the machine carried on back to work.
If the accumulators are charged properly and the pilot has adequate knowledge and training a HYD failure should be a non event.

[Vertical Freedom]

I’ve had a hydraulic failure in a B2, (also in a JetBox) was a bit scary at the time, but landed without to much headache. Was light at the time around 1,850kg. It’s not a serious event if properly trained for :hmm:

[Skidbiter4eva]

AS 350 , 1400 kgs+ empty, 900 kg internal load, an hours fuel plus pilot. How do you reckon you'd go with a hydraulic failure? That's a good reason for sticking to MAUW , I reckon I'd struggle, my boss thought it acceptable.

[Vertical Freedom]

Hey Skidbiter4eva..............2,524kg Yikes that's scary. Remember if You bend it over 2,250kg (unless dual-hyd; 2,370) You'll wear the bowl of soup on yer head & be in the can, Man :ugh:

Yep hydraulic failure at that weight would be F.F.F.Fvkin' frightening, probably just about unmanageable unless Your Superman :mad:

[AAKEE]

So far it seems that Ppruners know of not a single actual hydraulic failure on a 350, yet know of many incidents and some fatalities practicing for the eventuality. Surely there must be knowledge of many actual failures amongst the huge collective experience here? Any offers again?

Would be strange if nowone did’nt know about any AS350 accidents related to hyd failure! I didnt fly the type, but I still know about ”some”.
I know there was a thread here soemyears ago about the subject.

I wont be the one putting a list of such accidents here, but it would be quite easy to do.

[Skidbiter4eva]

Hey Skidbiter4eva..............2,524kg Yikes that's scary. Remember if You bend it over 2,250kg (unless dual-hyd; 2,370) You'll wear the bowl of soup on yer head & be in the can, Man :ugh:

Yep hydraulic failure at that weight would be F.F.F.Fvkin' frightening, probably just about unmanageable unless Your Superman :mad:

It's why I'm no longer there, thanks for your opinion, although it was a financial disaster for me to have to move, I know it was the right choice.

[gulliBell]

So far it seems that Ppruners know of not a single actual hydraulic failure on a 350..

Maybe you missed my post at #64.

[Vertical Freedom]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotorspeed https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/601580-hobart-accident-3.html#post10000471)
So far it seems that Ppruners know of not a single actual hydraulic failure on a 350..

Maybe you missed my post at #64.

& post # 83 :8

[Vertical Freedom]

It's why I'm no longer there, thanks for your opinion, although it was a financial disaster for me to have to move, I know it was the right choice.

Wise move Mate....sometimes there's a lot more at stake than money :ok:

[Big Foot]

ATSB report is out

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5778384/ao-2017-109_final.pdf