Qatar buys stake in Cathay

[bluesideoops]

https://www.qatarairways.com/en/press-releases/2017/nov/qatar-airways-announces-its-acquisition-of-9-61--of-cathay-pacif.html?activeTag=Press-releases

[azhkman]

Wow, that's pretty interesting. The board meetings should be really interesting after this deal closes. SWIRE, Air China, Qatar, all would seem to have a separate interest in how to pillage earnings and dividends from Cathay. Unless ~318k shares does not buy you a board seat.

Or, tin foil hat theory:
Qatar, as a country, has some of RMB bonds issued to pay for the World Cup Stadiums and a license to buy Chinese financial instruments directly within China (it is a rarely issued license); so as a favor back to China, QR buys shares of CX and promises to vote in line with the China-linked & Air China board seats from now on.

[Flex88]

It just doesn't get any better than this... If there was "ANY" airline in the world where the Swire/CX Board of Directors wanted to "develop closer ties" it just has to be the national airline of a country which is being added to "Terrorist Watchlist's" on a daily basis.

You think security screening is bad now, just wait...

Maybe we know know who made money in the "Fuel Hedge" of the century,,, just a thought.

[Flex88]

Where (whose) shares were purchased ?

[cxorcist]

Kingboard.

[OK4Wire]

Wow. 10% is a fairly serious stake (although I like the tin-foil hat theory too).

[Flex88]

Where really was DFO when MIA for nearly 3 months.
Perhaps Cambridge language school learning #Arabic ?

Just a thought. ;)

[Shutterbug]

The sandbox comes to the Pearl River Delta. So who cashed out their shares? That 10% stake came from someone. Wonder if the fuel hedge debacle trail runs through Qatar....

[humbleppl]

Can only be good news! QR will want to have a say in daily business. If CX is lucky, some fresh blood comes in and helps clear up the management mess at CX. Wouldn't be surprised if this stake increases over time... and, having access to cheaper and plenty of fuel, maybe QR is able to provide a helping hand in CX's hedging... sine CX management has proven to be completely incompetent. Finally, I heard the QR pilots are having good contracts... maybe new opportunity arises for the CX/ KA guys. Can only be good news.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I wouldn't be so sure.

The reason Kingboard sold is that they were dissatisfied with Swire's management of CX (duh), and when they offered to buy Swire's 45% controlling stake, they got told to stuff it.
So they walked away from the whole thing, as any smart person would.

I doubt QR is going to have any more say in the sh#tshow than Kingboard did, given Swire's blinding arrogance and blindness to the fact that they're driving the airline to the ground.

[Freehills]

I don't think Kingboard were interested at all in CX, apart from a trading opportunity (bought at around 10 HKD, sold at 13.65)

Al Bakar's management style and attitude will dovetail in very well with CX though...

[Flex88]

Baseboard Chemical will realise 800 million in it's well executed "flipping" strategy treating CX shares similar to, and with the same respect as, the way Mainlanders flip Hong Kong Swire Properties apartments.

Ahhhhhhh,,, Capitalism "Asian Style" :ok:
kingboard.com

[Frogman1484]

Apparently CX had no idea that QR was going to buy the Kingston shares. They were sleeping at the wheel again. This now will prevent The Chinese from taking over the airline as 25% of shares need to be available to the public at all times.

[Flex88]

Commenting on the share acquisition, "Rupert Hogg said: “Qatar Airways is one of the world’s premier airlines"
Forgot to mention the "Terror Lists" so many from that fine state are on..

But then, I'm sure the Hogman and "Senior Leadership" will properly address this nasty little issue at all the upcoming "Quarterly "Engagement" Forums"..

You just can't make this up....:D

[valhalla634]

Judging by the length and content of the CX statement on this I highly suspect London did not see this coming. And I also suspect this is only the first step in an imminent change of power.

[wheels_down]

They won’t be having a lot to say for such a small share.

Bit like Etihads investment in Virgin. Apart from code sharing they have nil input on the operation unless they went in for a takeover.

[humbleppl]

"They were sleeping again" is quite an inappropriate statement. "Still sleeping" (since years) is surely more accurate. CX have been overtaken by so many airlines, most noticeably QR, in so many areas (hard ware, software, profitability)... read this forum... CX is probably the most hated employer in Hong Kong, if not Asia. So yes, in times of pilot shortage and other airlines doing anything they can to retain pilots, CX intentionally is trying to get rid of some of the best in the industry... there are many things they don't see coming. Be assured QR will want to get involved; because they want their investment to be profitable, something that Swire seems unconcerned of (why else would you do the things they are doing...). It will only be to the better of all CX staff, customers and therefore the company. Be assured!

[Flex88]

You don't need 10% of a company to code share :ugh:

London didn't see this coming same as the "Hedge from Hell".

I feel better already, maybe the Army guy from the Borneo boat fleet will get promoted again to "Grand Leader" and sort this out...

This will be case study material for "How to manage incompetence " at every level.

I've said it before "The Peter Principle" Time to Win :ugh:

[humbleppl]

From CX website:

"Statement regarding Cathay Pacific shareholding ownership

Qatar Airways Q.C.S.C. (‘Qatar Airways’) has announced today that it has acquired approximately 9.61 per cent stake in Cathay Pacific Airways Limited (‘Cathay Pacific’). Both Cathay Pacific and Qatar Airways collaborate together as members of the oneworld alliance.

Air China Limited and Swire Pacific Limited together continue to hold 74.99 per cent shares of the airline.

Commenting on the share acquisition, Cathay Pacific Chief Executive Officer, Rupert Hogg said, “Qatar Airways is one of the world’s premier airlines. We already work together closely as fellow members of the oneworld alliance and we look forward to a continued constructive relationship."

Doesn't look like CX was informed in any way... well, that's one thing, but how embarrassing is admitting to it so publicly through such terrible press release. Who is responsible for that and what is his/ her profession in real life? What a company...

[checklistcomplete]

The board in London was taken completely by surprise by this move. Financial Times does not see this as a positive but rather Qatar trying to broaden its global base and get a foot into the China market by stealth AND a money laundering exercise by Kingford who sold all it's shares having decided CX was a lost cause under Swire control.
Qatar already owns 20% of IAG ( BA, IB, EI ) and is now the largest single entity in One World.

[Flex88]

Absolutely agree with your assessment and glad I had a chance to add my small contribution to what is becoming a congealing description of "The Way it Is"..

Time To Win Aye Wot.....

[checklistcomplete]

Look at Al Jazeera report on Qatar share buy.
CX not consulted.
Swire forced to relinquish one seat on the board.
Qatar not attempting hostile takeover of CX.
Qatar placing itself strategically in China market with HKG slots in mind.
Qatar sees no place for CX Dragon in future expansion plans
Qatar owns 20% of IAG already

[amalfi]

According to France 24 news, Qatar Airways purchases a 9.6% stake in Cathay. Can't post the link here

[checklistcomplete]

Old news. Financial Times and Al Jazeera all over it.

[BlunderBus]

Amazing! Just a week after announcing they’re in it for the long haul.. opportunities are limitless and they’d continue to invest at even $20 per share Kingboard totally bail for a $175 million usd profile in less than a year... very cool! A perfect example of ‘believe nothing’ when anyone makes comment on where cx is going.

[Frogman1484]

Cathay now has to issue more shares as there has to be 25% of shares available for the public. Hopefully Qatar does not buy those too. 😂

[Flex88]

SCMP 7 Nov..

"Cathay Pacific CEO Rupert Hogg, said his airline “looked forward to a continued constructive relationship.”

What a crock of corporate BS speak if I've ever herd it.. RH and the lot of 9th Flr elites plus their UK muppet masters were blindsided by this and all he can do is spew this PC corporate nothingspeak. :yuk:

The ex Army guy and Swire Borneo boat master could probably do better..

OMG, we're all done.....

Hint to CEO, before you “look forward to a continued constructive relationship.” - you must have a relationship !

[mr did]

The most interesting part of this is that Qatar know what it costs to run an airline. If they do get a seat on the board, Swire will have a very hard time explaining the money diversions to their wholly owned contracted entities. Air China get theirs back by doing the same to Swire on the CX holding but Qatar will want to know why the hell all of this money is being stripped from the books.

[asianeagle]

When will QR staff get Standby Priority 25 on CX flights?

Bwhaha.... why would we want them :ugh:

[Liam Gallagher]

Not a lot is making sense here. The company seems to be have blindsided by this and is scrambling.

Regarding a seat on the Board for Qatar, Cathay are saying they are not aware of any requirement to give Qatar a seat and they do not foresee Board composition changing. How can Cathay be "not aware" of their own Rules? I must remember that gem on my next Linecheck......

"Well young Gallagher... Let's have a brief chat about Fuel Policy...
Sorry mate, not aware of the Company Fuel Policy... So let's not"

Frogman... I don't understand why Cathay would need to issue more shares. They didn't when Kingboard owned the shares, so why would they need to when Qatar owns them?

Here's a conspiracy theory for you - perhaps Qatar was bank-rolling Kingboard and using them as a front and had Swires sold to Kingboard, Qatar wouid have bankrolled that as well, then Kingboard would have sold to Qatar and Cathay would have become a Qatar/ Air China owned airline. To really spice it up, perhaps Qatar and Air China were in cahoots and used Kingboard as a stalking horse to get rid of Swires......

Got to go, there's an Arabic looking gentleman knocking on my door... I wonder what he wants?

[Lowkoon]

To offer you your new contract.

Why would they go to so much trouble to buy shares in a company that is supposedly in the worst financial position it has been in, in it's entire history? Someone is telling porky pies.

[sleeve of wizard]

"Qatar Air won’t seek a seat on that Cathay board, in line with its approach after investing in British Airways owner IAG SA and Latam Airlines Group SA, the biggest South American carrier, but aims to pursue opportunities for joint purchasing in areas such as ground handling, maintenance, components and fuel, Al Baker said on Bloomberg TV. The companies are also likely to code-share on flights beyond their Dubai and Hong Kong hubs."

Source: Bloomberg

[flyboy007]

"...well, that's one thing, but how embarrassing is admitting to it so publicly through such terrible press release. Who is responsible for that and what is his/ her profession in real life?"

Where's Ivan Who when you need him. He'd have given a masterful press release, complete with Bloomberg interview.

[morningcoffee]

I’m waiting for the utterly clueless amongst us to start suggesting we should adopt Qatar FTL and Payscales.

[Frogman1484]

Having 85% of shares holdings with three airlines, might not satisfy the following rule.

Shares in public hands. At least 25% of the applicant's total issued share capital must at all times be held by the public. For applicants with an expected market capitalisation of over HK$10 billion at the time of listing, the SEHK may consider accepting a lower percentage of public float of between 15% and 25%. The SEHK will not entertain an application to reduce the level of public float after the company is listed.

[Frogman1484]

Cathay & Qatar: Who wins? | ATW Editor's Blog (http://atwonline.com/blog/cathay-qatar-who-wins?NL=ATW-04&Issue=ATW-04_20171107_ATW-04_554&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_7&utm_rid=CPEN1000000442681&utm_campaign=12476&utm_medium=email&elq2=c1929630dac6405eb4f1fade2257d346)

[jumbobelle]

does this mean we get cheap fuel now though?

[Trafalgar]

....yes, but 'cheap fuel' would only cause the "Worlds Greatest Hedging Contract" to realise an even bigger paper loss. Only in CX world can high fuel prices be a good thing economically.

[BlunderBus]

Statement by CEO of Kingboard a week before selling their 9% stake.....
In a wide-ranging interview, Cheung, 61, branded himself “a long-term investor” rather than “a corporate raider”, and said that Cathay Pacific was a “once in a lifetime” investment with a strong future ahead of it and that he would only want to tighten his grip on the airline.

So much for any public statement made by any of the protagonists in this fiasco being even remotely close to the truth!

[Flex88]

It's called LYING to line my own pockets and screw anybody else.. Capitalism with "Asian Values"

[cxorcist]

Exactly! Hence the newly minted and much maligned term, “Fake news”! It’s been around forever, better known as propoganda, but now is embraced by almost all journalists across the globe.

[wongsuzie]

"QR FTLs".How about 110hrs to start with?.

[Flex88]

Yes but they get to play in the sandbox after returning from a hard days work..

[Trafalgar]

ummm, are you implying there isn't a multitude of reasons? This is just one more. Most sensible pilots are well on their way already in the application/interview stage. Hasta la Vista baby...

[hyg]

just as it couldn't get any more fun for management...Cathay has been removed from the Hang Seng Index, it is no longer a blue chip stock

[morningcoffee]

Lots of great jobs out there. Just look at that 744 cargo job on the AOA forum out of the uk paying a whopping £70k a year for skippers. Perfect long term contract, anyone on a base in the UK needs their head examined if they don’t grab that chance. Just use any online resignation letter template, fill in the gaps and you’re out of CX and into that. Home 12 days a month. Amazing.

[Trafalgar]

....and that company will just have to do without pilots, just like CX will have to soon. Morningcoffee, for every joke of a job, there are now a dozen that have large pay and benefit packages. Not to mention all those mainline carriers in our pilots home countries actively recruiting (for now....). Most of the CX pilots I speak to have concluded that it's time to get real, go home and settle down and enjoy life. Not stress out with the HK rat race, be abused and mistreated and lied to by our management, see their kids become chronically ill and eventually wake up broken, divorced, ill and poor. CX management can wish all of this away, but it's too late. The tide has turned, and the exodus begins. I fly with these people every day. I hear what they are really thinking, not what they are telling the likes of AT at a drinks get-together. But you keep believing that CX is the mecca of aviation. :hmm: (oh, and your "12 days home a month" comment is comically ironic: that is 12 days more a month than most HK based pilots, who have been lied to regarding basing's).

[Shep69]

Well, I guess we know who the ghost writer for the Friday Fibber is. Hope the coffee's good :)

And why we have a mass exodus from people dumping high seniority to begin anew at UPS and just about every other US carrier.

It MIGHT be competitive if you fudge the numbers and use the old A scale. Not to mention CASS, KCM, and a happier work environment at most other places. And a little respect. But as things stand now it's not even close. With a proposed future that's even dimmer.

I GUESS CX might be competitive against a regional; then again one might find himself happier there (which is inconceivable compared with the days of old). Somehow the 'leadership' here has managed to turn a job which is truly a blessing and with which most folks were grateful into something that just pays the bills--kinda sorta not so much--at least for now-- and people don't really like that much anymore.

[morningcoffee]

So Shep,

If its all so wonderful everywhere else and everyone's leaving and the place is doomed then why bother with CC. Its a pain in the ass for us, organising my roster when I'm on reserve would be way easier, it doesn't matter what it achieves as everyones leaving and the place is doomed.

Why bother?

[Trafalgar]

Because it's crippling the operation, that's why we 'bother'. But you know that, being management. If our actions aren't effective, why even comment? 'Organizing your roster'...sure.

[morningcoffee]

You didn't answer my question. Everyone's leaving so why bother. Why waste your life crippling an organisation that apparently you're all leaving? Bit like the ARAPA housing, everyones leaving if it drops even one dollar. Well I'm guessing it's dropping more than one dollar, so why bother waiting to see what its going to drop to. Reality is that no one's going anywhere.

[Trafalgar]

You sound a bit panicked coffee. At least you will fit in with the rest of your colleagues at the Monday morning management meeting. Oh, and don't worry....many are going everywhere but here. But you go ahead and live in the land of delusion. The facts will speak for themselves. And for clarification, the only people crippling the organisation are the management. The pilots are simply reacting out of self preservation. Put the blame where it belongs, squarely in your own laps.

[Shep69]

LOL--yep, +2 Traf.

Nice try there, coffee. Maybe y'all could use a few better spin doctors and staff writers.

It's amazing that a manager of an airline would let it get to the point that when a large percentage of its pilots simply executes their contract--no more, no less--that it could 'cripple' the organization. Sounds like a resource problem to me.

And if the NEEDED someones to go above and beyond (which they obviously do), I'd be pretty keen to keep them happy and make peace in times of conflict.

This is how incentive based functional places work btw. And for the others, if it's going to hit problems with a stick, it'd better have a contract (and manning) it can live with when things go south. Which it obviously doesn't.

It's TRIED the stick approach over the last few years. It's TRIED its 'continuous reserve' (aka crisis management) rostering approach -- all miserable failures. Now it's reaping the results and is running scared. Be interesting to see the denouement.

Now there ARE ways out (maybe). These have been well published and are well known over the last several years. They AIN'T done by cancelling things, slashing and burning, and further alienating the very people you NEED to run the place.

Yup, ya need people. And happy people. And ya gotta invest in them and keep them happy. The treating people like coal don't work.

And ya are going to have to admit you were wrong and do a few (real) things to actually fix stuff around here.

For most of us normal humans, admitting mistakes (and doing what we can to fix them) is actually not that big of a deal. It's part of being a person and living life. Might want to give it a try.

FWIW no idea what fraction of stock is publicly traded. If it's tiny (and the block masters are happy with the way things are going) then probably no worries for anyone 'in charge'. But there are many ways to play the hostile takeover game. The hi-bid leveraging assets a company has on hand is only ONE way; it works in the other direction too. Being stuck somewheres in the upper managerial levels during this isn't a very good place to be in terms of job security.

[cxorcist]

If management really took a good hard look in the mirror, what would they see? An abject failure!

Was cancelling RPs really worth it? Was what was gained, one three man LHR, worth what was lost, continued CC and a TB?

How many CX pilots have any goodwill left? Not many, and those who do are not encouraged by what they see today.

I actually think CX is yet to hit the iceberg, but the time remaining to turn the ship is getting very short. Pilots are patient and forgiving by trade, but the well is running awfully dry. There simply isn’t much juice left in the orange to squeeze.

[Shep69]

Ya, this is a very good point I think.

RP-16 isn't substantially different than RP-07 other than the largely failed 3-man thing. The two are pretty much the same. But folks now know the company is willing to toss really anything out the window when it suits them.

IF the company wants to retain anyone, cancelling ARAPA (same concept as above) has only thrown uncertainty into the mix and created bad will. They are still going to have to pay; it's just demonstrated that keeping your word doesn't mean much. In fact, they might have to pay MORE.

The current rostering philosophy has been a complete mess and has cost the company money as well as decreasing productivity. Total cock up.

ALL with stuff that could have been pretty much left alone.

PERHAPS it could be turned around--but this would take real action and a pretty significant epiphany. And one in which trust and good will were fostered (it takes a really long time to build trust, and can be wiped away very quickly). In which quality of product and a healthy working environment fostering teamwork, incentive, and excellence were placed above all else. Chiseling and cost cutting (which has largely involved stepping over thousands of dollars to pick up a penny) is not really a part of this equation and has been our vector to date.

I agree completely the hull of the ship has been given a pretty big gash. Whether the pumps O' cash can keep up while things are fixed (IF they are fixed) until the direction is changed and things are shored up is anyone's guess.

[morningcoffee]

Shep and Traf,

Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.

B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.

[goathead]

Morning coffee
Keep smoking whatever you’re on
Its hillarious

[Black Pudding]

Flex88

it just has to be the national airline of a country which is being added to "Terrorist Watchlist's" on a daily basis

Please do enlighten us ?

[Shep69]

Shep and Traf,

Were you amongst the B scalers that proudly voted for a pay raise a while back
but only if A scalers only got a zero percent pay raise? Were you a member of the AOA that recently decided they’d put freighter issues on the back burner because pax pilots have already got everything the freighter guys want, so who cares? I tell you what, I’ll pretend I’m in management and you can pretend you’re in a unified pilot group where you’re not just out for yourselves.

B scalers joined on B scale because that’s all that was on offer, somehow C scalers doing the same thing is completely different.

Actually, no. But it's a minor point so don't spend too much time trying to figure it out.

You might want to consider when you start throwing spears at people instead of issues you are probably losing the point. Then again that probably sums up the company's recent 'strategy' campaigns so there ya have it.

There are many cool things I have in life I that I really like and am very grateful for.

I like this opening scene from True Grit and the wisdom there:

(wish I could figure out how to imbed video clips but this is the best I can do)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSo1nhSfgbA

"You must pay for everything in this world, one way or another. There is nothing free.....Except the Grace of God."

If the best you can do is C scale pay, you get C scale results. One way or another. And it is all encompassing and it shows in spades. This is not serving the Company particularly well at this point nor is it likely to do so in the future.

Best of luck to you; hopefully Bruce won't throw ya out of the lifeboat.

[Trafalgar]

This industry is littered with the wreckage of airlines that pushed their staff one step too far. A classic case was that of Eastern Airlines, one of the large legacy carriers in the USA during the late 80/90's. They were bought out by Frank Lorenzo (wikipedia if not sure). He had a similar idea to our current CX management (and yes, our management are so clueless they are attempting failed strategies of over 30 years ago), which was to slash staff costs and benefits, and...surprise, maximise 'shareholder' value and management bonuses. Well, with Eastern, he pushed that one step too far. Faced with an ultimatum to come off strike and 'accept' their imposed terms with a threat of shutting down the airline if they didn't.....most of the employees decided that is simply wasn't worth continuing with a management and career that was full of uncertainty and intimidation (sound familiar). They simply let the airline shut down. Nearly all the employees found good careers in other airlines. The moral of the story is simply this: people have a breaking point. CX management, you have pushed yours right up to that point. Go ahead, push just that little bit further.... :E

And Coffee, just an update. During my flight to HK yesterday, both FO's just interviewed with carriers in the USA and 'Europe'. Both awaiting course dates. The SO told me he is gone the first day he can arrange a decent job ANYWHERE else (his words). I also was made aware by one of the FO's that he has three friends following him through the interview process at the same airline he is awaiting a course date from. Also interesting was his reasoning: he didn't want to get left behind or lose his early place on his new seniority list. He also said that it was too late for any reconciliation with CX. He explained that ALL trust and faith was irrevocably lost. No matter what was said or promised at this point, he had concluded that it was almost a 95% certainty it would be a lie. THAT is what you and your kind have accomplished. Well done. :ok:

[Dragon Pacific]

Not only USA or Europe Traf, much closer to home too. At least three local FOs have gone to HKA from KA with many more said to be in the pipeline. C scale not enough to hold new Captains here either, another one left KA last week for a China commuting contract; not that it is only C scale leaving many B scale too.
The flood gates will really open if they mess with housing and leave.

[Dan Winterland]

Went to a pilot's leaving beers last night. On of the other guys there has his in a month. We do seem to losing quite a few pilots right now.

[Dragon Pacific]

I think locals leaving in any numbers will really give the mangers some explaining to do.

[Freehills]

And HKCAD has set the precedent with HK Express that cancelling flights due to people resigning means major oversight...

[Dragon Pacific]

Someone else is clamoring for our slots as well.

Give us more flights, says Hong Kong Airlines executive
https://sc.mp/2i4r3Kt

[Liam Gallagher]

Exactly CR,

There is no way the company would have given a payrise on 1 May 2017 just as they were making 600 people redundant. The ARAPA extension to 2020 would not have been honoured either.

However, here's the kicker. Clause 7 would have survived on, so the GC would be writing to us all recommending against any form of action and anyone putting up a members' motion would have the company's lawyers probing their parts that they don't want probed!!

It's almost like the company were setting us up. Perhaps we dodged a bullet and have done well to keep our industrial weapons intact and limp on to fight another day. However, that "day" will only come once we stop "collaborating".... grrrr....

Assuming of course anyone is left to "fight" or "collaborate" or even "care".

[Air Profit]

That is becoming increasingly less likely Liam. No one can be bothered to stick around anymore. CX can train their management to fly the a/c. Apparently they believe it is quite simple.

[morningcoffee]

What I like is that after screwing over your fellow members no one on here says they think it should stop. Sounds like, apart from me, who’s apparently management, most B scalers think the A scalers deserved getting shafted.
Curtain Rod, the company has paid the pay increases every time they’ve been negotiated for the last 70 years, it’s complete bs to suggest that they wouldn’t have paid this time. The fact that they may or may not have been enough is irrelevant.
Any proof?

[Shep69]

I don't know of anyone who thinks someone else in their group should get shafted (other than potentially those who've 'sold out' and scabbed or violated the training ban). This isn't 1990 (where the company appears stuck). Information today travels VERY fast and is very well publicized (social media is a very recent development). What people didn't know in the past they DO know today--although this needs filtered due to the immense amount of stuff out there.

After the last big hoo-haw, it's unlikely (for a few years at least) then hired B-scalers really knew that much about history or what had happened unless they took the time to really get into it. Today everyone is getting a blow-by-blow account in real time. So any changes are well apparent and instantly available to everyone--those in CX as well as those who might have considered joining; as is the information of how it will affect ones' career over the expected (and projected) span OF that career. And of what else might be out there. Seniority still rules, but with instant access other options also become apparent when a decade or two ago they would not have been. Nothing to see this trend as abating so a company must work with incentive and attraction rather than entrenchment and hitting things with a stick.

Many of the pilots hired here (and who the airline liked to hire at the time) are demonstrated professionals who served in the forces or in civil aviation where their brethren depended upon them to get the job done; often for their very lives and in very hazardous circumstances. These folks were willing to lose the jet--and even their life--to pull a fellow pilot (or fighter, worker, or evacuee) out of a bad situation. And they're smart enough to see how the divide and conquer game works.

So turning them against each other or getting them to sell out is pretty d@mn unlikely. On the other hand, the company can be (and may well have been) successful at turning them against IT due to its own bad behavior. At a point where it needs them the most. This is pretty d@mn stupid by anyones' playbook.

[Trafalgar]

Coffee, seriously...'apparently management'...? No, you obviously are management. Troll somewhere else. Your attempts to justify this management are becoming comical. And to somehow suggest that 'paying increases every time' is somehow a credit to management conveniently ignores the fact that the below inflation increases, missing out two or three years of every five, leaves pilots with an effective pay cut every year. So take your feeble attempts to spin the facts and distort the truth elsewhere. It's Tuesday morning in HK, aren't you supposed to be in a management meeting about now?

[Liam Gallagher]

I'll risk feeding the troll as I think we all, but particularly the GC, need a reminder as to how the Swire legal dictionary works.

Morningcoffee,

You are clearly new here and I am sorry to steal the jam out of your donut, but your statement regarding the Company honouring pay agreements is utter tosh; you said;

“..the company has paid pay increases every time they’ve been negotiated for the last 70 years…”

First point: If your statement is true, and I am not saying it is, it would only be true because the company has yet to be confronted with an agreed future pay rise that coincided with redundancies. However, the Company does have a history of attempting to not pay contractual increments because it no longer suited them. Lajom & others v CPA HCA3377/2003 was widely discussed on pprune way back. You can google it and you will see this interesting interpretation of contractual law by Cathay. The company lost, but this statement from the Court Report should tell you all you need to know about the Swire legal dictionary.

"3. Cathay denies the plaintiffs are entitled to automatic increment. Cathay also asserts a contractual right to unilaterally vary any agreed salary scale, so long as the change does not result in a flight attendant receiving less pay then he received immediately prior to the change."

With thinking like that, you still believe you would have got a 2.5% pay rise whilst 600 people were leaving the building?

Second point. The company is not normally as bold as they were with the FAs in the Lajom case. They tend to be slimy, rather than bold. Just ask your Chairman about 25 year housing. Ask the 19 Instructor pilots about their ‘promised” expat terms. Ask the Captains about the 10% deduction from the 2009 SLS payback. Ask one of the former Paris Based pilots. Is your Statutory Holiday Pay correct?

Third Point. If the TA had been voted through, where in your contract would it say that you would have been entitled to 2.5% pay rise?

Welcome to Cathay matey….. time to wise up

[Trafalgar]

Sorry Liam. Just need to point out that he is management. He's just pretending to be a pilot, but his commentary proves otherwise. You make good points in the above btw.

[Starbear]

I'll risk feeding the troll as I think we all, but particularly the GC, need a reminder as to how the Swire legal dictionary works.
However, the Company does have a history of attempting to not pay contractual increments because it no longer suited them. Lajom & others v CPA HCA3377/2003 was widely discussed on pprune way back. You can google it and you will see this interesting interpretation of contractual law by Cathay. The company lost, but this statement from the Court Report should tell you all you need to know about the Swire legal dictionary.

"3. Cathay denies the plaintiffs are entitled to automatic increment. Cathay also asserts a contractual right to unilaterally vary any agreed salary scale, so long as the change does not result in a flight attendant receiving less pay then he received immediately prior to the change."



I took your advice an Googled it, http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/161053-cathay-pacific-flight-attendants-union.html

They really are just a nasty bunch of cretins all round aren't they. Worth reading all of the posts.