Isle of Scilly Shuttle - New Operator

[KiwiNedNZ]

Just wondering if anyone knows who the new operator is thats going to be doing the Isle of Sicily shuttle operation with 139s.

Thanks for your assistance.

[jeepys]

Someone who can afford to lose lots of money!

[leopold bloom]

Sicily? Do you mean Isles of Scilly?

[KiwiNedNZ]

Sorry yes thats what I meant - Didn't check auto correct first.

[leopold bloom]

Nothing happening at the moment as the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company have thrown a legal spanner in the works.

[leopold bloom]

Isles of Scilly Steamship Group calls for a 'major consultation' amid legal wrangles over rival's helicopter link plan - Cornwall Live (http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/isles-scilly-steamship-group-calls-478245)

[[email protected]]

Seems like someone isn't happy with their monopoly being threatened....

[HeliboyDreamer]

Seems like someone isn't happy with their monopoly being threatened....

Indeed https://twitter.com/PzHeliport/status/874942846649982976

[RedhillPhil]

Having been clobbered by a huge amount of money for unexpected work on their replacement freight vessel (the vessel - "Mali Rose" - is currently in dry dock in PZ having it's bow repaired after a parking prang) the last thing that the steamship company wants is competition eating into their profits.
Many of us here welcome the appearance of the helicopter again. Anything's better than rocking and rolling across on the good ship Scillonian III.

[jeepys]

Nice idea but is there really enough profit (if any) in this proposal using a 139?

The 61 was bought and paid for and had the capacity to carry 19 pax and decent amount of bags but the 139 is expensive to buy/lease and just as costly to operate. You can squeeze 12 with light luggage into one of these so significantly less.

[lowfat]

well the plan is for 8-10 million facility plus 2 139s in 15 seat config.

If they have memories of the 61 and think this will be comparable it will certainly be interesting.

[leopold bloom]

Wow, 15 pax in a 139 plus holiday luggage, that’ll be cosy.

[lowfat]

its cosy in 12 as well no idea how you will get the holiday luggage in .

[rgsaero]

The Steamship Company's aviation activities are more than a little hampered by the weather of the area. Runway threshold of 398ft means that all too often it's in cloud; Newquay is not a lot better though being further east helps somewhat.

The major advantage that any helicopter operator based at sea level in Penzance has is that they will be affected less often by the "usual" Cornish met. Insisting that the new operator uses St Just, at which the Steamship Company sets the landing fees is a very bad joke and entirely unacceptable as well.

[KiwiNedNZ]

What about using an older S92 - must be a few cheap ones out there that they could use. If they used a 61 before would a 92 work - or too expensive.

[diginagain]

What about using an older S92 - must be a few cheap ones out there that they could use. If they used a 61 before would a 92 work - or too expensive.

Plenty of relatively new low-mileage H225s kicking about too!

[POBJOY]

All 'New heliport' plans on hold due Cornwall Council 'suggesting' that the planning permission given is 'doubtful'.
I also think that the costs have escalated and there will be no 'user rights' transferable from the old site.
In essence the new location is just that NEW and would be subject to far more scrutiny for both planning and CAA licensing.
As to the actual equipment planned I suspect it would be difficult to really operate at a profit with its low payload, and diversion reserves.
The original PZ operation benefitted from its sea level location and was in the weather shadow of the west Cornwall peninsular; the very idea of operating the new service from Lands-End was quite correctly rejected due to the well know weather restrictions at St Just (who have spent a small fortune on GPS approach technology to try and deal with this).
On another tack I did hear that the dedicated S61 'EB' that served for years on the route (specially modified to allow quick turarounds) is now logging in Canada.

[heli1]

All 'New heliport' plans on hold due Cornwall Council 'suggesting' that the planning permission given is 'doubtful'.
I also think that the costs have escalated and there will be no 'user rights' transferable from the old site.
In essence the new location is just that NEW and would be subject to far more scrutiny for both planning and CAA licensing.
As to the actual equipment planned I suspect it would be difficult to really operate at a profit with its low payload, and diversion reserves.
The original PZ operation benefitted from its sea level location and was in the weather shadow of the west Cornwall peninsular; the very idea of operating the new service from Lands-End was quite correctly rejected due to the well know weather restrictions at St Just (who have spent a small fortune on GPS approach technology to try and deal with this).
On another tack I did hear that the dedicated S61 'EB' that served for years on the route (specially modified to allow quick turarounds) is now logging in Canada.

Lot of speculation here. The new PZ location clearly best situated and no planning or certification barriers. As to type, well AW139s now available on used /lease market and performance will allow an increased frequency and faster passage to meet passenger demand.

[Cambridge172]

Having tried twice over the last summer to try to go from Newquay to St.Marys with the Twin Otters but had cancellations each time due to weather, I fear the frequency of weather issues cancelling flights on a fairly routine basis, plus the costs of running the helicopters will make it very tough indeed to make a living. A cancelled Twotter flight and Skybus automatically offer to drive you down to take the boat as an alternative and much of the time those passenger opt for that, so no need for ticket reimbursement. The heli-operator I'm assuming doesn't have a boat back-up option, so anyone on a day trip to say Tresco will just cancel and want their money back.

[Cyclic Hotline]

More problems.

https://www.piratefm.co.uk/news/latest-news/2583491/the-new-helicopter-service-to-scilly-is-suspended/

[RedhillPhil]

IOS really are getting themselves in the mire.
Helicopter service suspended.
Mali Rose still not operational causing them to have to keep paying to lease Gry Martha.
They must be leaking money like a nationalised industry.

[Martin the Martian]

Steamship company now saying that flights WILL go ahead on Monday. All very confusing.

[POBJOY]

This is really a paperwork exercise because of it being a Scheduled service, not that i see it can affect anything other than they may be restricted to making 'approaches' to the runway in use as opposed to direct to the pad.
Meanwhile the real 'Island Helicopter Battle' is being rerun at Cornwall Council planning dept with the consultation period now in play for the New Heliport at Penzance. The new application has had thousands of letters of support but will not be a smooth ride in the system as the location will have to contend with far more 'environmental' issues than the original site due to the area having been built up over the years. The ISSC Heli service to the Isles is somewhat restricted due to Tresco NOT being an option and the ISSC have certainly lost the pr battle over all this as their ship service is not really cutting it at present. The other big loser since the demise of the original service from the old heliport ceased is Penzance itself which has seen yet another supermarket drain trade away from the town centre and also the substantial spin off from the long standing Heliport operation that worked very well from its original location.

[Cyclic Hotline]

The Isles of Scilly council, which operates the airport on St Mary’s, informed the steamship company last week that it would not let the new helicopter service begin because the required environmental assessments had not been carried out. Concerns had been raised over nesting birds including shags and lesser black backed gulls.

Determined that the launch should go ahead as planned, the flight on Monday was designated as a charter rather than a scheduled flight. It meant the helicopter took off a little later than planned and had to touch down on the grassy fringe of the airport rather than on asphalt.

The designation also meant passengers were ushered through a wooden farm-style gate, while luggage was handed over a wire fence. But the passengers agreed that it added to the charm of the journey.

Islanders milling around the airport had mixed views. Lady Marian Berkeley, a councillor and resident of the island of Bryher – famed as the setting for Michael Morpurgo’s Why the Whales Came (https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2003/dec/13/theatre) – said she would turn her back whenever the steamship helicopter appeared on the horizon.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/21/isles-of-scilly-helicopter-service-resumes-st-marys-controversy

[heli1]

So was there a second "charter " flight....is it operating on a regular basis now?

[heli1]

According to the IOS website it appears only locals are being offered seats at present ,at discounted rates?

[diginagain]

Lady Marian Berkeley, a councillor and resident of the island of Bryher – famed as the setting for Michael Morpurgo’s Why the Whales Came (https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2003/dec/13/theatre) – said she would turn her back whenever the steamship helicopter appeared on the horizon.
That'll learn 'em.

[SARWannabe]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1241x1551/7ccee71d_98bd_4594_b00f_9c95842de447_49ae0d5d0bd503f75b76f3d db154be195348e585.jpeg

:D I almost lost a perfectly good cup of tea there. While I’m in support of the Penzance project, and customer choice (having been a semi-regular on the S61 and Otters), the Ladies and Lords of Tesco’s will get a shock if they think a 15 seat (ex-offshore?) AW139 is ‘quiet’ ‘spacious’ or likely to leave their tooth gold intact. I saw a 169 at Battersea the other day and mistook it for a 139. It certainly isn’t a 50% difference in cabin space.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/500x333/3ee2d77e_4990_4db1_bf98_7a24bd7d2d43_599f9797743a410bea6a50f 59fc873a88f974576.jpeg
(S'pose it's ok for those without legs)

[Father Dick Byrne]

Having only ever been in a 139 in exec fit, I thought seven was cosy enough.

Some routes cannot support competition, they’re a matter of relatively high-risk community service. The Scillies definitely count.

The real answer is, of course, a B-N Islander, and some special provisions, but they would require innovative thinking and regulatory capacity and competence. Neither of which can anything married to EASA deliver, even if contemplating a divorce in which the other half gets everything and still calls the shots.

[timprice]

Hope the pilot has more room!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SARWannabe]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1242x821/3c731a60_a203_4efc_827d_c44e82dec1a3_b5867264d64ba10fdfbe262 815eb0d303b190777.jpeg

Even the 4+4+4 looks... intimate.

[[email protected]]

On my TR course I was shown the video of them assessing the escape time from the cabin in the high-density configuration - it looked like one of those comedy vids where an impossible number of people emerge from a Mini, and not very quickly either!

[Watson1963]

If anybody's interested, here are the planning application documents ...
PA16/09346 | Proposed heliport comprising: a terminal building, hangar, emergency vehicle garage, helicopter landing pad and apron, operational equipment and apparatus, fuel storage facility, bunding and pipework, 269 staff and customer long-stay par (http://planning.cornwall.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=OEL21QFGG7U00)

There's a submission from Sloane about the different operating sites here...
http://planning.cornwall.gov.uk/online-applications/files/32D1E62C4C50E6D352D48FD5BDCAA788/pdf/PA16_09346-LETTER_FROM_SLOANE_HELICOPTERS_DATED_23_OCTOBER_2017-3757059.pdf

[MoateAir]

It always struck me that Penzance to Scilly would be well served with a hovercraft service. Probably just over an hour outbound, and less than an hour inbound from Penzance.
Was this ever looked at as an option?

[Fareastdriver]

Hovercraft are all right in a placid sea but unless you have a big one like a BHT130 which holds 120 passengers the ride in any sort of sea is very uncomfortable and noisy. I used to ride the hovercraft from Shekou to Hong Kong along the Pearl River and even the wake from a ship doing five knots was enough to make you grit your teeth.

[[email protected]]

A hovercraft in the SW Approaches:) What a vomit-comet that would turn out to be.........it might get to operate for 1 or 2 days a year when the sea is flat calm.....

[Non-PC Plod]

I reckon an Uber flying car penzance to Tresco is the way ahead!

[treadigraph]

Penzance heliport approved by Cornwall Council (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-45042511)

[Non-Driver]

Lands End ops permanently canned:

https://www.businesscornwall.co.uk/news-by-industry/tourism-sector-business-news-cornwall/2019/02/islands-helicopters-to-cease-operation/

[rog747]

Skybus would have been better to go for a bigger aircraft - ?

The 50 seater Dash 7 of Brymon was earmarked for the ISC route but was deemed too big back then when the island airport was still fledgling.
Today with the new longer hard runway they would have been real people movers and possibly even served a London direct service

[heli1]

So what has SAS AW169 G-SASX being doing since the service stopped last November ?

[horatio_b]

Looking at FR24, G-SASX appears to have spent most of this year on Police or Helimed operations out of Lydd

[Boslandew]

Skybus would have been better to go for a bigger aircraft - ?

The 50 seater Dash 7 of Brymon was earmarked for the ISC route but was deemed too big back then when the island airport was still fledgling.
Today with the new longer hard runway they would have been real people movers and possibly even served a London direct service

I think the problem with larger aircraft on the route is that of landing at St Mary's. I used to fly the S61 from Penzance and always understood that the gradients on the runways at St Mary's were outside modern limits and the present aircraft were only allowed to operate via grandfather rights. I'd like to know if anyone can confirm or deny that?

The use of helicopters from Lands End airport was never more than a gimmick. Whats the point of paying helicopter prices if there's a fixed wing aircraft operating the same route?

[rog747]

I think at the time (1981?) it was thought the DASH 7 could go anywhere where the Twotter could, but St Mary's then, was found to be out of limits - I think there was one test fight with Brymon. Capt Harry Gee iirc. But they were not happy.

Edit
re DASH 7 performance and ISC

please see thread here for more correct forum

https://www.pprune.org/10423816-post234.html

Thanks

[Boslandew]

Having flown the service for six years from Penzance, having read the submissions from all involved parties, having attended the open meeting in Penzance St Johns hall about the proposed service last year and having seen that in recent weeks services by sea have been suspended due to extreme weather I am convinced that the only way to provide a reliable, year-round passenger and light freight service to the Scillies is with a helicopter from Penzance.

There is no other way to do it.

[Thomas coupling]

And what's wrong with using an Islander for instance. A third the cost, less than half the running costs and can fly in much worse weather than the humble helicopter? Carries loads more too. Or for that matter what about a 2nd hand Shorts 360?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Shorts 360 = Flying Wardrobe!
Islander = a few humans and horribly slow.
S61/S92 = 24 pax plus bags and hostie + small runway.
TC, stop promoting planks!!!!!! This is Rotorheads.

BTW, unless you can get a Shorts 360/Small Plank to do CAT-III autolands, the humble helicopter can land & T/O in the same limits as a FW. TC????

[SARWannabe]

BTW, unless you can get a Shorts 360/Small Plank to do CAT-III autolands, the humble helicopter can land & T/O in the same limits as a FW. TC????

The humble helicopter can take off in lower limits, but probably won’t have anywhere to go in 400m vis

The vis will always have to be greater at Penzance than Lands End unless they improve on their ‘continue VFR’ PinS. approach.

[Thomas coupling]

DB - c'mon. We're talking additional freight and pax to a third world county here. Most 'stuff' (pax and freight) gets there eventually by flat bottomed boat - easy, cheap and reliable. S92 - WTF? How much is that going to cost each year?? And to achieve what?
Look - air passage to the Scillies is a luxury, nothing more, nothing less.
Islander - £3/week to run. £20/year insurance, £50/yr maintenance and you can throw it away after 10years and get another one.

You know it makes sense................(or HS2 could overshoot a little, perhaps:ouch:

[SARWannabe]

If the Cornwall/Scillies councillors & operators were serious about improving the ‘weather resiliance’ the first step would be to find funding to make the whole corridor between Lands End and St Mary’s Class D and provide radar separation. As it stands the system doesn’t allow a stream of IFR traffic, a single IFR movement blocks off the whole corridor, and therefore renders an IFR flight unworkable around the other traffic.

Penzance Heliport will only operate in VFR conditions as their PinS approach is a ‘Proceed VFR’ approach with an OCA of 523ft, so in reality it requires a 600ft cloud ceiling. ‘Weather resilience’ against fog and low cloud (250ft) through IFR flight using modern technologies were nothing more than PR speak to gain public support for the planning process, the realities of which were predictably dropped once planning was granted. In fact - Penzance offers no added resilience. At least IFR flight is possible to Lands End in visibility well below VFR minima.

It all becomes academic when you have a public who think £230 for a return helicopter ticket is ‘more expensive than a flight to Malaga!’, and those who can afford it charter a 109 from Liskeard. Unfortunately the numbers don’t add up these days for a helicopter airline.

[rog747]

Even the FW air rickets from NQY and EXT to the islands are around £200-300 a pop return

[Fareastdriver]

Even the FW air rickets from NQY and EXT to the islands are around £200-300 a pop return

Flying from one place to another is dirt cheap. It's the landings that cost the money; take offs are free.

[cessnapete]

Flying from one place to another is dirt cheap. It's the landings that cost the money; take offs are free.
Why don’t the airfields have a GPS/LPV instrument approach? Cat I limits with no extra airfield infrastructure required. A couple of second hand G430W in an Islander. As in USA many hundreds in operation at uncontrolled airfields.
Oh wait a minute the CAA are involved!!

[SARWannabe]

Why don’t the airfields have a GPS/LPV instrument approach? Cat I limits with no extra airfield infrastructure required. A couple of second hand G430W in an Islander. As in USA many hundreds in operation at uncontrolled airfields.
Oh wait a minute the CAA are involved!!

Lands End does have GNSS approaches to all 4 runways. The DH are all higher than necessary (around 400ft vs 250ft), and only one is available for use in IMC because the CAA want to see a certain amount of utilisation and traffic integration before approving IMC usage to the lower LPV minima. However, the fixed wing never use them, and the helicopters couldn’t use them that often because when you go IFR you block the whole corridor in the absence of radar for separation, so the ‘trial’ essentially ended and needed to be restarted before approval is granted. I’m not sure whether it has restarted.

St Mary’s just has a trusty old NDB.

[cessnapete]

Lands End does have GNSS approaches to all 4 runways. The DH are all higher than necessary (around 400ft vs 250ft), and only one is available for use in IMC because the CAA want to see a certain amount of utilisation and traffic integration before approving IMC usage to the lower LPV minima. However, the fixed wing never use them, and the helicopters couldn’t use them that often because when you go IFR you block the whole corridor in the absence of radar for separation, so the ‘trial’ essentially ended and needed to be restarted before approval is granted. I’m not sure whether it has restarted.

St Mary’s just has a trusty old NDB.


Thats confirmed then, OK until the CAA get involved!

Whats an NDB?

[Thomas coupling]

A non-disclosure clause. But spelled wrongly:ouch:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Thats confirmed then, OK until the CAA get involved!

Cessnapete, maybe you would like to put your families on an aircraft that operates IFR approaches without any form of regulation or conformance but I would decline. That's what the CAA do! They protect numpties from operating willy-nilly in clouds thinking they know what they are doing. If you want to spend your flying career trashing the CAA then hand in your licence that they gave you!

[Boslandew]

And what's wrong with using an Islander for instance. A third the cost, less than half the running costs and can fly in much worse weather than the humble helicopter? Carries loads more too. Or for that matter what about a 2nd hand Shorts 360?

Skybus do use Islanders. The problem is that they have to operate from Lands End airfield which is 400 ft above sea-level and is frequently in cloud and fog. Theycan't fly in 'much worse weather' than helicopters. The whole crux of the matter is that helicopters operate from Penzance at sea-level and could and again will be able to operate IFR when the cloud is 300 ft above sea-level. Even with the most advantageous limits probable at Lands End with GPS approaches, they will need a cloud base of 700 ft above sea level. That 400 ft difference is what makes helicopters from Penzance so much more reliable than the fixed-wing service from Lands End.

[Boslandew]

SAR Wannabe


Not so. IFR approach limits at Penzance were 250ft AMSL cloud base and 900 metres visibility, That was using a complicated approach based on Decca, later GPS. One of the leading ATC experts in Europe recently informed me that there is no reason that will not again be possible for the new service. Even with the best possible approach limits expected at Lands End, probably 250/300 ft above airfield level, they will still need a 700 AMSL cloud base to operate.

[Boslandew]

SAR Wannabe

Sorry but the old service flew IFR services quite routinely between Penzance and the Scillies. I regularly flew six return trips IFR in a morning or afternoon with an instrument approach at each end. It did not block the whole corridor due to separation because we operated with Culdrose radar keeping an eye on us. St Mary's has an NDB but it also had and will have again an instrument approach using Decca originally and then GPS with a DH of 250 feet AMSL

The problem with IF approaches into Lands End is that even if DH's of 250/300 above the airfield are eventually approved that equates to a cloud base of 650/700ft AMSL and it so often isn't. Even then an approach into the prevailing westerly wind requires the aircraft to fly east six miles past Lands End to join then six miles on the approach adding 12 miles to a 28 mile sector. The helicopter approaches are joined directly from the en route track.

[SARWannabe]

The whole crux of the matter is that helicopters operate from Penzance at sea-level and could and again will be able to operate IFR when the cloud is 300 ft above sea-level. Even with the most advantageous limits probable at Lands End with GPS approaches, they will need a cloud base of 700 ft above sea level. That 400 ft difference is what makes helicopters from Penzance so much more reliable than the fixed-wing service from Lands End.

Wrong. With respect, the whole crux of the matter is that people, including the planning committee and other stakeholders in Penzance Heliport, are unknowingly seeking advice from people who are out of touch with current CAT regulation and promising the undeliverable based on what the S61 once did.

You cannot fly a ‘Proceed VFR’ GNSS PinS approach with a 523ft AMSL OCA (not <300ft the observant will notice) in less than VFR destination weather +/-1hr eta, which for flight over water is a 600ft cloud ceiling. Well you probably can, but you’d need 2 IFR alternates meeting planning minima (+200m/400ft) as the destination weather would be below minima.

Neither can you dive and drive over water to 250ft these days incase there is a large vessel. You can’t use radar to mitigate against this unless you are flying an ARA or offshore GNSS approach iaw a HOFO approval in which case passengers must be wearing survival suits and be HUET trained etc.

So you have an ‘IFR’ approach designed to let one down to 523ft requiring VFR destination weather at Penzance (600ft ceiling and 1500m vis), hardly the weather resiliance game changer in low cloud and fog.

Ah yes - Culdrose Radar... have you ever tried them at a weekend, or after 5pm, or during a bank holiday, or times of school holidays, or around midday... or whenever else they NOTAM it or just decide to shut - hardly the robust solution you want to rely on for your IFR separation.

(P.s. in a 600ft cloud ceiling you don’t need to fly IFR to Lands End, you can fly VFR).

[EESDL]

insert 'like' emoji here..........................

[Aucky]

SARwannabe - you forget two other important factors.

1) If a ‘Proceed VFR’ PinS is to be flown at night over water you would need 1200ft cloud base for the VFR segment.

2) Lands End also has bright RTIL strobes & edge lighting directly lined up with the inbound track as you coast in at 600ft VFR bang on the APAPIs to a large runway. In marginal visibilities these often stand out as the first detail you see coasting in and they give you a warm fuzzy feeling. The MAPt on the Penzance Heliport plate is 1km from the nearest land, and any FATO lighting will be perpendicular to the inbound track. In 1500m vis at 600ft you would be lucky to make out sufficient detail to proceed with the goldfish bowl effect.

Penzance would be a lovely place to operate from in good weather, convenient for customers off the train, save the drive to Lands End etc but I also don’t believe it offers anything real in terms of added weather resiliance without a proper IFR solution. They could presumably turn the ‘Proceed VFR’ to a ‘Proceed visually’ and bring the MAPt closer to the heliport which would help in poor visibility, but due to the rising ground in the missed approach the OCH would rise and it’s already above 520ft.

Weather resiliance was the buzz word phrase for added support during the planning process. When modern day regulation changes were mentioned fingers went in ears.

[DeltaNg]

Time for some out-of-the-box thinking:

The helicopter service was convient, and it had an excitement factor.

Why not have a hovercraft ?! Exciting, novel, fast and not subject to cloudbase :)

[pettinger93]

DeltaNG: maybe you are just being provocative, but have you ever seen, or experienced, the sea states usual between Land End and the Scillies? Hovercraft might indeed be fast and not subject to cloud base, but they are even more subject to wave height than aircraft are subject to cloud height. They would not operate more than once a week on average and in some months not at all. The Dover Straits were a considerable challenge for the largest hovercraft, so the seas off Lands End will be completely prohibitive. I know whereof I speak, having been in the coastal shipping business for some 45 years.

[SARWannabe]

I didn’t even know Sloanes have a 139 on their AoC. Well done. Are all the positions full? I haven’t seen them advertised anywhere.

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Data_and_analysis/Datasets/AOC_holders/20180907rptAOCList_N_Z.pdf

They don’t.... AW139 and multi-pilot will all be brand new to their AoC :hmm:

[DeltaNg]

Yes pettinger: I'm trying to raise a little laugh.

I've flown over the seas between LND and STM for the last ten years, and seen some enormous seas. Not every day mind.

Ok then - what about that Condor thing that they use in the Channel Islands?

[RedhillPhil]

Yes pettinger: I'm trying to raise a little laugh.

I've flown over the seas between LND and STM for the last ten years, and seen some enormous seas. Not every day mind.

Ok then - what about that Condor thing that they use in the Channel Islands?
Rather too much capacity for the route? Can it/could it sit on the harbour bed at low tide like Scillonian does?

[pettinger93]

DeltaNG:
Apologies that I missed your joke. (Though there have been dafter suggestions made in all seriousness elsewhere on Pprune)
The mere fact that helicopters are considered a viable option at all is really because all other high-speed sea-going solutions are impractical on a regular basis because of the appalling sea conditions that often occur in the area.

[DeltaNg]

Has there ever been a proper study as to just how appalling the sea state is plotted against the appaling nature of the cloud/vis/wind etc ?

[Nige321]

There's no such thing as a bad sea state, just the wrong sort of boat... :}

Safehaven Marine (https://www.safehavenmarine.com/single-post/2018/09/01/Safehaven-Marine-preview-new-2018-22m-high-speed-design?fbclid=IwAR01zrNGxCWEWk62bWWnN7RTUUhPHkSU70D-WslG_874wB9swCMm2RIX60g)

https://vimeo.com/276538839

[treadigraph]

Friend of mine who's a fairly hardy sailor admits to having felt distinctly queasy on the Scillonian...

[Spanish Waltzer]

Time for some out-of-the-box thinking :)

....build a tunnel and add one more stop to the western end of the London Penzance rail link..

now mind the gap and move on...simple

[Boslandew]

Wrong. With respect, the whole crux of the matter is that people, including the planning committee and other stakeholders in Penzance Heliport, are unknowingly seeking advice from people who are out of touch with current CAT regulation and promising the undeliverable based on what the S61 once did.

You cannot fly a ‘Proceed VFR’ GNSS PinS approach with a 523ft AMSL OCA (not <300ft the observant will notice) in less than VFR destination weather +/-1hr eta, which for flight over water is a 600ft cloud ceiling. Well you probably can, but you’d need 2 IFR alternates meeting planning minima (+200m/400ft) as the destination weather would be below minima.

Neither can you dive and drive over water to 250ft these days incase there is a large vessel. You can’t use radar to mitigate against this unless you are flying an ARA or offshore GNSS approach iaw a HOFO approval in which case passengers must be wearing survival suits and be HUET trained etc.

So you have an ‘IFR’ approach designed to let one down to 523ft requiring VFR destination weather at Penzance (600ft ceiling and 1500m vis), hardly the weather resiliance game changer in low cloud and fog.

Ah yes - Culdrose Radar... have you ever tried them at a weekend, or after 5pm, or during a bank holiday, or times of school holidays, or around midday... or whenever else they NOTAM it or just decide to shut - hardly the robust solution you want to rely on for your IFR separation.

(P.s. in a 600ft cloud ceiling you don’t need to fly IFR to Lands End, you can fly VFR).

I will admit to being out of date as to modern procedures which is why I am not relying on my memory but on up-to-date information. May I refer you to the open letter published by Sloane Helicopters, the proposed operators (PA16_09346-OPERATING_SITE_REQUIREMENTS_-_SLOANE_HELICOPTERS-3632425.pdf) as part of the planning application to Cornwall Council. It explains in all necessary detail how the service would operate and the specific differences between operating from Penzance and from Lands End. The approaches to Penzance were planned by one of the foremost ATC planning experts in Europe and he was confident that IF approaches into Penzance and Tresco to 300ft AMSL would be approved. They could not be approved before planning permission had been granted. Validation flights have been flown.

Regardless of that, whatever the weather conditions prevailing, because Lands End is at 400 ft elevation and Penzance is at sea-level, Penzance will always be better off. I flew the service for six years, (how about you?) made nearly 4000 round trips, IFR or VFR, in full accordance with CAA requirements including diversion fuel. Within the first year I lost count of the number of times we routinely flew our service while Lands End was closed due to weather. I have flown six of the twelve daily flights VFR with Lands End at 400 'grounded all day. Ask anyone in Penzance or Scillies who used the service and they will tell you which was and will be the most reliable.

At the open meeting held in Penzance prior to final approval of the planning application speaker after speaker got up and said that, for example, (post Penzance helicopter service) that if they wanted to go to hospital on the mainland on a Monday in winter (no passenger boat in winter) they had to plan to travel on the previous Friday, with all the expense of a stay in Penzance over the weekend to make sure they made their appointment. One girl said she nearly missed her own wedding because it took her five days to get off Scillies via Lands End. Never happened at Penzance.

[Bravo73]

The 139 isn’t operational yet.

[[email protected]]

March 2020 I believe.

Their new hangar and helipad are close to completion, flew past there a week or so ago.

[TRENT210]

It seems the AW139 is stuck in China so they will be initially using a 6 seater AW109SP

From their Facebook...

“Our new service is launching on 17th March 2020, despite a delay to the arrival of the new AW139 helicopter, caused by current Chinese export restrictions linked to Coronavirus control measures!

Despite these unforeseen delays, our scheduled flights will commence in one of our VIP AW109SP GrandNew helicopters! 🚁“

[Apate]

It seems the AW139 is stuck in China so they will be initially using a 6 seater AW109SP

From their Facebook...

“Our new service is launching on 17th March 2020, despite a delay to the arrival of the new AW139 helicopter, caused by current Chinese export restrictions linked to Coronavirus control measures!

Despite these unforeseen delays, our scheduled flights will commence in one of our VIP AW109SP GrandNew helicopters! 🚁“

Oh dear. The finances of this operation will be extremely marginal. Perhaps a 109 in the winter months will work? Is it sustainable? Different crew qualifications, different engineer licences, different spares. This could turn into a bit of a mess. Time will tell.......!

[OneFlewUnder]

“Our new service is launching on 17th March 2020, despite a delay to the arrival of the new AW139 helicopter, caused by current Chinese export restrictions linked to Coronavirus control measures!”

Interesting!

I heard it’s because the 139 is still not on their AOC yet, as they’ve still not applied for it....?!?

[SARWannabe]

The CAA aren’t showing it on the AOC

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Commercial_industry/Aircraft/Operations/Air_Operator_Certificate/20191101%20rptAOCList_N_Z.pdf

[Torquetalk]

The CAA aren’t showing it on the AOC

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Commercial_industry/Aircraft/Operations/Air_Operator_Certificate/20191101%20rptAOCList_N_Z.pdf

Would imagine that getting an aircraft on the AOC is made easier when it is at least in-country.

[TRENT210]

Realistically for a 30 minute round trip flight is the 109SP with 2 crew able to comfortably take a payload of 6 pax + up to 120kg of luggage ?

[[email protected]]

Well I hope they get it sorted, I've booked tickets in May!

[Non-PC Plod]

Dont worry crab, apparently there is a replacement bus service. :-)

[[email protected]]

Dont worry crab, apparently there is a replacement bus service. :-) Phew, that's a relief:)

[Torquetalk]

Planning a busman’s holiday Crab? 😉

[[email protected]]

Planning a busman’s holiday Crab? 😉
I've flown past the Scillies on a few jobs before but never actually stopped there - it was in Culdrose's patch rather than Chivenor's.

'er indoors has been pestering me to take here there for years.......

[lowfat]

Locals are up in arms ,pitchforks an everything.. I mean an s92 is taking the pe
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/anger-penzance-helicopters-uses-noisier-4484190

[Bell_ringer]

Chickens scurrying. Can’t have that.. :E

[ApolloHeli]

Slight tangent but why is the AW139 coming from China?

[nowherespecial]

Apollo, it's not new and it's leased. I guess the old lessee and first customer in China didn't want it anymore so the leasing company needed a new home for it.

[Bravo73]

Slight tangent but why is the AW139 coming from China?

It’s not, any more.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=324290648924785&id=109027960451056&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

[DuncanDoenitz]

Ekranoplan anyone?

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/634823-russia-s-ekranoplane-move.html

[[email protected]]

The 109 is very comfortable though, came back from the Scillies a few weeks ago in it.

The biggest problem with the service is the battle with the SW weather.

[JulieAndrews]

I wouldn't worry too much - S92 serviceability will take care of noise complaints ;-)

[lowfat]

139 in service now ...https://penzancehelicopters.co.uk/news/penzance-helicopters-introduces-state-of-the-art-aircraft-to-isles-of-scilly-service

[KiwiNedNZ]

That paint scheme is from Heliconia in Morocco.

[Medevac999]

That paint scheme is from Heliconia in Morocco.
On a dry lease from Heliconia i believe.

[thwock]

We have therefore made the difficult decision temporarily to suspend helicopter services until early spring.

Helicopter flights between Penzance, Tresco and St Mary’s will resume on 10th March 2021.

[Same again]

We have therefore made the difficult decision temporarily to suspend helicopter services until early spring.

Helicopter flights between Penzance, Tresco and St Mary’s will resume on 10th March 2021.

Where did you get this from? Are they not contracted to provide a daily service? It has been a convenient excuse for many organisations to provide poor service 'due to Coronavirus'.

[Non Emmett]

Their website says flights to resume March 2021, the relevant note refers to COVID. Low levels here in Cornwall and my understanding is they have only had a couple of cases on the islands but it seems Penzance Helicopters have had no government financial help, unlike Skybus with the fixed wing operation from St. Just. Best of luck to them next year, they could scarcely have picked a worse time to start the new service.