The Arrows at Akrotiri

[PAXboy]

We all know that The Red Arrows practice in Cyprus in the Spring - but when? I have an invitation to visit a friend in Nicosia and would like to synchonise (;)) my visit with the Reds.

[MightyGem]

Used to be March, I think.

[chevvron]

I was there in '86 for ATC Camp and they arrived early April.

[JetMender]

For the past 2 or 3 years, the Red Arrows have NOT gone to AKT for their spring practice sessions, apparently due to the base being too busy with other ongoing missions. Instead, they have flown from a base in Greece, generally around Easter time.

[Genstabler]

They go to the med for Springhawk, their final work up training and PDF at Easter. In the past they have gone to Cyprus, but for the last couple of years the operations at Akrotiri have prevented that and they have used Androvida in Greece.

[TEEEJ]

Not always Cyprus. Tanagra, Greece is also used.

The 11 aircraft departed RAF Scampton, the Squadron’s base in Lincolnshire, on 27 April. (2017)

After refuelling stops in mainland France and Spain, the team stopped overnight in Italy before flying to Tanagra, Greece..

https://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/news/index.cfm?storyid=47471B3C-D2C6-4FB7-83DBED827BF9F820


April-May
The team moves overseas, to perfect their display in the better weather conditions of Greece or Cyprus. This is known as Exercise Springhawk. Shortlist week also takes place here – where pilots hoping to get a place on the team are assessed. The training season ends in May when the Red Arrows’ Air Officer Commanding makes an assessment of their safety and professionalism. If he is content, Public Display Authority is awarded – permission to display in front of the public. The pilots, engineers and support staff are now allowed to wear their red and blue flying suits.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/aboutus/redsyear.cfm

[brokenlink]

At least 3 of them were practicing over Scamptopn earlier today, nice job guys.

[Genstabler]

That will have been the three new boys, Reds 1, 2 and 3.

[PAXboy]

Many thanks for the rapid info. It sounds like the destination will not be chosen until well into the new year and I was hoping to book tickets.

[morton]

PAXboy you will have missed a real treat unless they go back to Akrotiri! I still vividly remember staying with friends on married quarters in the mid 80’s. Coming out onto the veranda for my breakfast tea and toast in the morning and having the pleasure of watching them practice was absolutely brilliant. They probably did other practices later in the day but by then I was down on the beach doing my own practicing of how to hit the water without hurting myself too much. Otherwise known as learning to water-ski. Then it was copious amounts of alcoholic fluids to stop dehydration – I was on holiday from RSAF Tabuk working on their Lightnings. Don’t know what it was like there for the guys during GW1 & 2 but our home brew was an acquired taste!

[Pure Pursuit]

RAFAT will not be using Cyprus whilst SHADER is ongoing.

[chevvron]

I was there in '86 for ATC Camp and they arrived early April

100 Sqdn were there doing target towing for a visiting Phantom Squadron - could it have been 41, I can't remember? Anyway, the Arrows demanded the airspace around the airfield for their exclusive use; if a Canberra and F4 were airborne and had finished and wanted to come home - tough, they had to stay up there, weren't even allowed to dive back in when the Arrows were 'between' practices.
Needless to say, there was 'friction' between the various 'flyers' in the bar every evening!

[KPax]

First day of practice at Akr EARLY 90's 0700, Akr Tower Red Arrows taxi, Red Arrows hold, reason, 'local aircraft for departure', 2nd day 0700, Akr tower Red Arrows Taxi, Red Arrows hold, reason, 'local aircraft ahead', day 3 0800 Akr tower Red Arrows taxi, Red Arrows Akr tower taxi. Learning had taken place, local aircraft with chase car took priority.

[chevvron]

First day of practice at Akr EARLY 90's 0700, Akr Tower Red Arrows taxi, Red Arrows hold, reason, 'local aircraft for departure', 2nd day 0700, Akr tower Red Arrows Taxi, Red Arrows hold, reason, 'local aircraft ahead', day 3 0800 Akr tower Red Arrows taxi, Red Arrows Akr tower taxi. Learning had taken place, local aircraft with chase car took priority.

I presume the 'local aircraft' you mention is the one which isn't (wasn't?) 'officially' there. It used to take off every morning as we were walking to the mess for breakfast.

[YellowTom]

They’re officially there, that’s not a secret any more. As for what they do from there, different matter these days compared to when they first arrived for peacekeeping flights. I can imagine the Reds could use Akrotiri right now if they really wanted to but they don’t want to be told where to go when they moan about not getting their own way. I was once told they never like operating from somewhere where there’s a more “important” unit than them. These days I imagine that’s most places.

[The Oberon]

Quick question about formation flying. I know that in very simple terms it is a question of "follow the leader" but are there easier slots than others. Would new members find themselves on the outside or tucked away in the middle?

[Bob Viking]

Perception is a funny thing. Asking for exclusive use has nothing to do with being precious or snooty. It has everything to do with ensuring the safe conduct of multiple aircraft formation flying.

Some people will always believe the Reds are lodged up their own backsides. If you knew them you'd know it's very much an urban myth.

BV

[andrewn]

Perception is a funny thing. Asking for exclusive use has nothing to do with being precious or snooty. It has everything to do with ensuring the safe conduct of multiple aircraft formation flying.

Some people will always believe the Reds are lodged up their own backsides. If you knew them you'd know it's very much an urban myth.

BV

Oh come on Bob...

I mean I *literally* wet myself every time someone comes on here regurgitating the same tired old "scrap the reds/the reds are boring/unprofessional/scared/snobby/blah,blah".

Lets stick to the myth and never let facts spoil a(nother) pointless, circular reds bashing!

[fabs]

Spot on BV. Unfair rep really which I imagine is quite historic.
They got used to being shuffled about a bit at LCRA during TELIC. Sometimes got a little jip on frequency but always put it down to them working hard during their work up. The team pilots since the 2000s have all been involved in pretty high tempo ops themselves and know the score.

[Pure Pursuit]

I think it’s more of an infrastructure issue at LCRA as opposed to the airspace. Accommodation etc is at a premium and I doubt the footprint of a full Sqn would be very welcome at the moment.

[YellowTom]

BV, always happy to hear the other side of what the guys up front tell us down the back! Although back in the days when I has a port hole I remember seeing the red dots steering around us when we crawled across the airfield.

[chevvron]

Perception is a funny thing. Asking for exclusive use has nothing to do with being precious or snooty. It has everything to do with ensuring the safe conduct of multiple aircraft formation flying.

Some people will always believe the Reds are lodged up their own backsides. If you knew them you'd know it's very much an urban myth.

BV
When you talk to them socially they are (sometimes) OK.
When we visited 100Sqdn, the SNCO was just getting a fresh banner out for the Canberra to tow.
He also got out a tin of red paint and carefully painted 9 arrows on the banner.

[Treble one]

Quick question about formation flying. I know that in very simple terms it is a question of "follow the leader" but are there easier slots than others. Would new members find themselves on the outside or tucked away in the middle?


Oberon, the new pilots usually fly as Reds 2 and 3 as this is either side of Red 1 and its easier to formate on him when you are next to him.


The more experienced you get the further back you go.

[airpolice]

Some people will always believe the Reds are lodged up their own backsides. If you knew them you'd know it's very much an urban myth.

Just like the story that when performing at the Leuchars air show, they had to be put up in the Old Course Hotel, not the Mess with everyone else?

[The Oberon]

Oberon, the new pilots usually fly as Reds 2 and 3 as this is either side of Red 1 and its easier to formate on him when you are next to him.


The more experienced you get the further back you go.

Thanks 111

[Genstabler]

The further out they are, the harder it is to keep station accurately in a dynamic manoeuvre. In arrow, the guy on the inside of the turn will have to anticipate and throttle right back while the guy on the outside of the turn will be throttling up like mad. The cadence of the bosses commands helps the anticipation.

[Dougie M]

Apart from the early morning Secret Olive Something's departure, weary truckies in Akrotiri were awakened by the Reds practises throughout the day, even during the build up to the Gulf War. Protests were futile because the Staish was "Baldy" H******, an ex Red leader. When we were recovering from Riyadh there was a note in the O Mess saying that now the hostilities were over they could look forward to the sound of jets in the circuit again. Sadly the Staish's car was indulged back in a Herc and was fully accessorised with porn, photos of G.E.s girlfriends (same thing really) imaginative wiring looms - it was a 6 1/2 hour leg- and other mementos. It doesn't pay to phuck with truckies rest time.

[[email protected]]

BV - they may be different now but you should have seen how they conducted themselves in Akrotiri in the 80s - that is where the 'urban myths' were born. No smoke without fire etc etc

It doesn't take much to earn a bad reputation but it can take a lot to clear it.

[Tankertrashnav]

Saw them doing a display at South Cerney in 1965, their first full season. When I lived near Kemble in 1969 I saw them practising there several times. Gnats then of course :ok:

Just like the story that when performing at the Leuchars air show, they had to be put up in the Old Course Hotel, not the Mess with everyone else?

When several tanker crews were detached to Leuchars on a Dragonfly once, and the mess was full, they stuck us up in a dormitory in the attic. Don't remember being offered the Old Course Hotel as an option!

[Bob Viking]

Hearing tanker crew complaining about others getting better accommodation is a bit rich in my experience. I never complained about it when I saw others getting a better deal. I just took it as a mission to get myself the better deal next time.

As for the Old Course Hotel I obviously do not know the particulars of your story but I would bet the Old Course may well have subsidised the occasion and the Reds were probably ‘working’ whilst there.

Maybe you could have got the same deal but I doubt that for the hotel to advertise an opportunity to mingle with/play golf with a miserable git had the same ring as mingling with the Reds.

You can see I am being slightly mischievous but as I said, perception is key.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

I was there in '86 for ATC Camp and they arrived early April (and within 48 hours had p1ssed off the entire station)

Nothing changed them, same in 1972.

BV, nothing to do with professionalism - the no flip flops, not flying suits in the Mess was waived for them. Flip flops and red suit! And the Staish all beaming smiles.

[BEagle]

In VC10K days, we certainly stayed at the Old Course a few times when Leuchars OM was being rebuilt. Which was fine - except for the time when our stay coincided with a Liberal Democrat party conference (or was it SDP then). Hence the advice to everyone not to visit the heads solo, in case there was a Lib Dem politician lurking therein.

Some pompous, career-seeking Flt Cdr (some may know of him as 'avocado with feet' from his time in the South Atlantic) decided to order us home even though the wind was still out of limits at the time "Because the Dulles schedule has taken off, we can't lose face to them and we'll save the Queen some money...:rolleyes:". So we rushed around packing bags; when it came time to pay the bill, the hotel told us that we'd have to pay for the extra night which had been booked anyway! Fortunately the crosswind at Brize had abated to 27.9 kts across by the time we got back....:rolleyes:

[Bill Macgillivray]

Had no problems with the "Reds" in May 1972. We were the Vulcan (escort) on their first trip to North America (still Gnats). Probably the nicest bunch of guys that it was my pleasure to mingle with (professionally and socially!). Never forgotten!!

Bill

[Tankertrashnav]

Hearing tanker crew complaining about others getting better accommodation is a bit rich in my experience. I never complained about it when I saw others getting a better deal. I just took it as a mission to get myself the better deal next time.

It was a bit tongue in cheek, Bob, but there is little doubt that we tankertrash did come pretty well down the pecking order! Which reminds me of an incident at Akrotiri. At the time the air conditioned transit blocks were reserved for the shiny VC10 fleet. One day a tired, hot and sweaty tanker crew were humping their gear to their two to a room non air conditioned accommodation, when a sergeant VC10 LM who was standing at the door of his cool room was unwise enough to call out "there go the tanker trash". Unluckily for him the tanker nav radar was an irascible red haired flight commander not known for his tolerance of insubordination. Said sergeant rapidly found himself out on his ear and his room commandeered by one of the tanker crew. The green shield squadron leader VC10 captain complained to the station commander, but got no support whatsoever.

[Heathrow Harry]

Abit off thread but soemthing I occasional wonder about:-

Does flying with the Reds accelerate/cramp /make no difference in your future RAF career??

[fabs]

They don’t appear to get any special career treatment. The few I know seem to rise at the normal ish pace.
I imagine being on the team presents some great networking opportunities for when they leave the RAF though.

[PAXboy]

Hi folks, is their any announcement yet about Springhawk practise? Thanks.

[Barksdale Boy]

I had the good fortune to meet them at a ceremony in Hong Kong in October 2016. They could not have been more charming or considerate - a credit to the Service and their country. And three of them were ex-617, which was nice of course!

[alwayslookingup]

When the Reds used Aberdeen Airport for three days in June 2016 they stayed at the Malmaison. Best steak in town.

[FAStoat]

Even in the 70s,the Crimson Crabs were not allowed to be housed with the rest of us.They got zapped too often!!The Boss used to send recce parties to find their Hotac.Usually identified by Red MGBs or next year Red Hondas,as I remember.Our Greenie did a splendid job of placing herrings in the Heater boxes,and potatoes up the Hondas Exhausts,at a particular establishment one year to then again find them at another the following year,whilst at Greenham IAT,similarly at the Bournmouth Air Pageants,when they were moved from the Dormey to a secret Hotel,which was duly discovered.We then made it SOP for a Crab Hunt wherever else we met them,and that carried on into the 90s,so hardly surprising they still stay elsewhere??.Such merriment was had in those days,which would never be !!!!!today.

[langleybaston]

Fortunately the crosswind at Brize had abated to 27.9 kts across by the time we got back....:rolleyes:

That's some fancy anemometer! Bribing the observer? Surely not?

[chevvron]

They don’t appear to get any special career treatment. The few I know seem to rise at the normal ish pace.
I imagine being on the team presents some great networking opportunities for when they leave the RAF though.

No it doesn't always.
A bizjet pilot at Farnborough told me an ex RA had gone for a job interview with his company; every sentence he uttered contained the words 'in the Red Arrows we...'.
He didn't get the job.
Mind you, Ryanair aren't too particular who they take on but I suppose if you only want a 'temporary' job you'd go to them anyway.

[Cows getting bigger]

I'm going back a few years.

Individually, I found Red Arrows pilots to be professional, welcoming and thoroughly pleasant. Some were a cut above the rest, Charlie Mc springs to mind. However, put them together and they behaved like a sqn of Harrier prima donnas, probably because they were mostly Harrier prime donnas.

I had occasion to 'cross' them a couple of times where they perceived they could play an exemption card as far as basic, non-aerobatic, rules were concerned. This was disappointing but of course they had a direct line to a two-star.

The Reds are the front end of the RAF PR setup and they do a fantastic job. I hope that the ethos has matured and there is now realisation that there's also a need for "internal PR". It would also be interesting to understand the relationship with MAA and, cognisant of the recent Flt Lt Cunningham case, I wonder if the right level of investment is being made in areas more wide-ranging than just than 9 blokes, their tailored flying suits and HOTAC.

[Bob Viking]

Chevvron

Your story is essentially a ‘fat bloke down the pub told me so it must be true’ kind of tale.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t.

CGB

Things have definitely changed so you can rest easy.

BV

[chevvron]

Chevvron

Your story is essentially a ‘fat bloke down the pub told me so it must be true’ kind of tale.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t.

CGB

Things have definitely changed so you can rest easy.

BV

Acksherley I got it from one of the pilots doing the interviewing who took the trouble to PM me to tell me about it.

[Bob Viking]

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

THAT RA guy was probably just a bell end.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

BV, WIW is not confined to RA bell ends and is common across the field. We spent so long learning drills and procedures, polishing turds etc, that we think what we learnt is best practice. It may indeed be gold plated but not make commercial sense.

It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.

[chevvron]

BV, WIW is not confined to RA bell ends and is common across the field. We spent so long learning drills and procedures, polishing turds etc, that we think what we learnt is best practice. It may indeed be gold plated but not make commercial sense.

It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.
Wasn't Carol Vorderman 'friendly' with an ex RA who is now her ex BF? Makes you wonder about the clash of personalities.
I have got a tale to tell about the Red Arrows* but I'll save it to see where this thread goes because it's a bit controversial.

*Edited 'cos of a misunderstanding.

[son of brommers]

Wasn't Carol Vorderman 'friendly' with an ex RA who is now her ex BF? Makes you wonder about the clash of personalities.
I have got a tale to tell about them but I'll save it to see where this thread goes because it's a bit controversial.

Consider this thread to have gone to that place :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Or put another way, do tell, if you are sure it isn't libelous.

[chevvron]

Consider this thread to have gone to that place :E

OK you asked for it.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.

And you wonder why I don't like them.

[The Oberon]

OK you asked for it.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.

And you wonder why I don't like them.

And there's me thinking you had a story about the ex RA and CV.

[chevvron]

And there's me thinking you had a story about the ex RA and CV.
Sorry reading it now it is easily misunderstood so I've edited it.
Funny enough, she did an interview in Farnborough Tower with Reg Turnill about that time - she interviewing him.
I worked out a few years ago that if she really is the age she claims to be now, she must have been only 15 or 16 when she conducted the interview.

[RAFEngO74to09]

[QUOTE=chevvron;10028959]Wasn't Carol Vorderman 'friendly' with an ex RA who is now her ex BF?

Yes - for those that can't recall just Google news articles.

Before that, BBC newsreader Jan Leeming with another.

[Brian 48nav]

The OP was asking when the 2018 team will be in Cyprus and you go banging-on about an alleged incident from 40 years ago. Come on Terry , I bet you'd have bitten his arm off if the leader back in '86 had offered you a ride when you were on your ATC camp.

I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.

[chevvron]

The OP was asking when the 2018 team will be in Cyprus and you go banging-on about an alleged incident from 40 years ago. Come on Terry , I bet you'd have bitten his arm off if the leader back in '86 had offered you a ride when you were on your ATC camp.

I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.
I had a Hawk ride in 1979 out of Valley when we were at camp there. They told us on arrival that adult staff only (ATC camp again) could scrounge back seat rides on the few sorties where the instructor would fly solo with solo students flying in close formation.
My pilot was a certain Flt Lt Roger Moore (no not THAT Roger Moore) whom I had first met 14 years previously when we were both founder members of (don't laugh) the Chorleywood Branch of Air Britain! It started nice and gentle, the students formating on us, being waved off and by means of hand signals, re- formating in a different formation.
Then came the tailchase; 20 min of Roger deliberately trying to 'lose' the students by aerobatting all over the sky of North Wales, constantly varying between +5g and -3g all the while encountering buffet. It was the best flight I've ever had.
When the Reds appeared at Akrotiri I tried to keep neutral but the regular station staff, plus 100 Sqdn (flying Canberras long before they got Hawks), seemed to have the same opinion of them as me, judging by what happened in the bar every evening.

Edited to remove incorrect and ambiguous statements.

[Stratnumberone]

I had a holding job with them for the best part of a year in the early 2000s. I found every single one of them (from the Wing Co and Boss all the way to the Ops staff) to be not only extremely professional but also very friendly and likeable. I didn’t get any grief for being a young holding officer at all (not beyond the usual banter anyway); rather, I was made to feel part of the team and always felt accepted.

I was messing at Waddo for the duration and upon hearing where I was holding virtually every single liver-in mentioned something about “those w@nkers”. Eventually, I asked the Reds’ boss why everyone described them thus and he told me that in the past they had recruited numerous pilots of undeniable flying ability but who were, in all honesty, exactly as described by the Waddo bunch (and everyone else). He said that they had changed their recruitment policy and focused closely on personality as well as ability - something that I saw firsthand. He also said that significant damage had been done to their reputation within the RAF and they knew that it would take a long time to completely rebuild it, but it was something that they were determined to do.

It seems to me that first impressions really do count and many people have negative first impressions of RAFAT. I, however, have nothing but fond memories of my time with them and it was a real privilege seeing them doing their thing.

[Bob Viking]

I’ve done tailchasing and I’ve flown in every position in the Reds. Whilst the front five is a reasonably sedate experience (certain manoeuvres such as roll backs are certainly not), I can assure you that the back four is anything but. It’s as violent as anything I’ve ever done in a Hawk.

As for the rest of your statements it’s starting to sound like a Reds pilot once stole your girlfriend or something.

Whilst I’m sure there have been a few bad apples over the years can you really tar them all with the same brush?

As I’ve said before, perception is key. You perceived that they were a bunch of prima donnas for not letting pax fly with them. I’ve flown many pax over the years and I can assure you that very few non-FJ aircrew would be able to handle the rigours of the backseat in a display practice with no g pants (yes I know that has finally changed).

You think that’s unfair but do you think it would help their display work up to have a bunch of vomiting or unconscious pax flopping around in the back?

Still, I doubt I’ll ever change your mind but sometimes facts can help to dispel rumours.

BV

[chevvron]

As I’ve said before, perception is key. You perceived that they were a bunch of prima donnas for not letting pax fly with them. I’ve flown many pax over the years and I can assure you that very few non-FJ aircrew would be able to handle the rigours of the backseat in a display practice with no g pants (yes I know that has finally changed).

You think that’s unfair but do you think it would help their display work up to have a bunch of vomiting or unconscious pax flopping around in the back?

Still, I doubt I’ll ever change your mind but sometimes facts can help to dispel rumours.

BV
Don't know how you got the impression I wanted to fly with them; they have a specific job to do when displaying and as you say, the last thing they want is a back seater puking. I was quite happy to have flown in a Hawk at Valley (I did puke as a result of a negative g barrel roll but I didn't tell Roger until we went home) and never had any ambition to fly with the Reds.
As for flying back seat without a 'g' suit, I was fitted with one for my Valley flight and I'm glad I was. Course I'm not talking about situations where they position in with a crewman in the back seat; I presume they don't have a g suit but then it's not a display is it.
About 6 weeks after my Hawk ride, back at Farnborough, I was given the chance to fly in a Hunter. I didn't have a g suit for that flight and experienced 'grey out' as we pulled through a loop at 5.5g. I'd heard about grey outs and to experience it myself was very interesting.

Edited to correct ambiguous statements

[Bob Viking]

The problem we have here is that you base your arguments on supposition and hearsay.

I prefer facts and personal experience.

You have made several unsubstantiated statements such as:

The tail chase was far more violent than anything the Reds do (I have shown you that is not true).

They offered no back seat rides (I explained why).

The Canberra guys all felt the same (did they, really?! All of them?).

They chose not to allow g suits in the back (it was to prevent snagging of the controls, although this rule has now been relaxed).

Anyway, despite how it looks I’m not trying to start a fight. I just hate sweeping generalisations, especially when they are based on experiences from several decades ago.

Tin hat on.

BV

[BEagle]

If I recall correctly, after some accident or incident the RAFAT policy towards passenger flying had to be amended?

Incidentally, I met 'Duffy' whilst chatting with Carol. A nice, polite chap who never once mentioned that he'd been a RAFAT member, he told me that he'd flown Jags in the RAF. Check his CV - he's done a lot more than most in his Service career, of which his RAFAT time was a relatively minor part.

[Brian 48nav]

You just don't know when to back-off do you?

You spent the whole of your career in ATC with CAA, initially as an assistant at West Drayton, then the old 3 year cadet course and your entire time as an ATCO at Farnborough. How does this make you an expert on the Red Arrows and what other members of the RAF think about them?

As for 'the incident' at Blackbushe, you and I both know that if you want something done about a possible breach of regulations then you have to go into print. I wouldn't have expected the student ( unless he was already in the business ) to file a report but his instructor and the guy in the Tower should certainly have done so and were remiss not to have done - from your version of the story that is! Either put up or shut up!

When I was a young navigator in the Herc' world there was a saying that did the rounds - " Lord, Teach me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about!". You would do well to heed that when it comes to Military Aviation!

[chevvron]

You just don't know when to back-off do you?

You spent the whole of your career in ATC with CAA, initially as an assistant at West Drayton, then the old 3 year cadet course and your entire time as an ATCO at Farnborough. How does this make you an expert on the Red Arrows and what other members of the RAF think about them?

As for 'the incident' at Blackbushe, you and I both know that if you want something done about a possible breach of regulations then you have to go into print. I wouldn't have expected the student ( unless he was already in the business ) to file a report but his instructor and the guy in the Tower should certainly have done so and were remiss not to have done - from your version of the story that is! Either put up or shut up!

When I was a young navigator in the Herc' world there was a saying that did the rounds - " Lord, Teach me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about!". You would do well to heed that when it comes to Military Aviation!
I've amended my previous postings to remove innacurate statements made by myself.
Yes I spent my whole NATS career at Farnborough where I worked alongside and flew with many highly experienced RAF/FAA/AAC/RM aircrew (yes there really were an Army Air Corps and a Royal Marines Test Pilot at Farnborough) only a few of whom (Transport Flight pilots) had NOT successfully completed the ETPS course.
You forget however that in my spare time I was also an officer in the RAFVR(T), thereby allowing me the chance to visit and stay at various RAF stations, something which the average NATS controller wouldn't do.
I won't say any more as I don't want to put my foot in my mouth again.

[Skeleton]

Had one experience with the Reds and that was enough. During the days when Lossie had enough aircraft and could muster some different type visitors, families day was actually good. Then the Reds arrived one year and to their obvious disgust had to share the pan that housed 8 Sqn and the Jaguar OCU. In 6 hours they managed to piss off a lot of people. Then 2 of them appeared in the Jag Ops room asking if they could have some maps as somebody somewhere had cocked up. "No problem", said the Auth and pointed them to the Map cabinet. One of the cheeky sods pointed at me and said "your Clerk can get them" The Auth looked at him and said "He is actually our Ops Asst and is not a dog, now bugger off and get your maps from somewhere else" Typical Jag Pilot :)

[BEagle]

My only direct dealing with RAFAT was excellent! In 1983 I was doing a stint in Stn Ops at RAF Wattisham and had been tasked to sort out a game plan for a Mineval. I rang their HQ on the off-chance that they might be able to transit via Wattisham on their way back after a display to act as an air raid - to be told that yes, indeed, they could help. They would be on their way back from Europe and would be happy to oblige....

I asked if they could simulate an attack trailing smoke, as I knew that there was something missing from the Stn War Plan.

On the day they arrived spot on time and wired the cr@p out of the place, just as I'd planned. A previous incident had dragged on due to being badly handled and, as Distaff, I watched with interest as a fin appeared behind a Sqn Ldr in NBC kit trying to talk to the 'defector' Canberra crew - and the inject turned into chaos. Anyone who'd done a tour in RAFG automatically masked up in 9, whereas the rest flapped about like wet hens.

Down in the bunker, the Stn Cdr turned to his staff and said "Get me the NBC Plan!" "Err, sorry Sir, there isn't one" was the reply.

At the debrief I was told that "There isn't an NBC threat to the UK, so it isn't in the War Plan". "Really?", I replied, "well, there's certainly an NBC phase in next week's CPX paper exercise!".

But no-one seemed interested in the fact that, despite being given the exact time and position of the RAFAT's UK FIR entry point, neither Neatisblunt nor anyone else had spotted 9 bright red Hawks running in to the attack.

I rang the RAFAT later and thanked them for their excellent participation, telling them that it had caused precisely the chaos I'd expected!

[Wander00]

Beagle - nice one. I had an interesting time at Binbrook in early 80s on exercise distaff.


Roger Moore - now I wonder if that was the ex Towers Roger Moore. About 20903 ish I rang a certain "Sqn Ldr Roger Moore" at Brockenhurst College to enquire about a place on a Public Service Uniformed National Diploma course for youngest W. " Is that the 88Entry Wander00?" came the response - he had remembered my slightly unusual surname from 40 years before. Youngster got on the course and had a great time. Did not join the services though, and after a degree in yacht building design, construction and survey is a trainee land surveyor. Happy boy though.

[dook]

Skeleton,

Do you have the date of that map saga ?

[PAXboy]

Hi folks, my trip to Cyprus now imminent - where are they practising this year?

[Nige321]

Hi folks, my trip to Cyprus now imminent - where are they practising this year?

Greece...!

[TEEEJ]

Hi folks, my trip to Cyprus now imminent - where are they practising this year?

April 22nd

From Red Arrows F a c e Book



The team have just arrived in Greece to commence Exercise Springhawk where they will train three times each day to perfect the display ahead of attaining Public Display Authority.



https://www.facebook.com/royalairforceredarrows/posts/1487434538052450

[PAXboy]

Oh bother! Thanks for info.

[roving]

Oh bother! Thanks for info.

https://twitter.com/rafredarrows?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5 Eauthor