Daily Mail Trans- Atlantic Air Race 1969

[gellis]

I have searched the forum and there was a single thread
Would anyone be able to help or direct me to where I could find a list of competitors please. XV741 win the London to NYC leg but there were contestants such as clement Fred who won his section on an airliner, and Sheila Scott flew a Comanche.

[DaveReidUK]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail_Trans-Atlantic_Air_Race

[chevvron]

I'm told that when the Phantoms landed at Wisley, they invariably burst one or two tyres. Don't know why, did FAA Phantoms not have brake chutes maybe? The runway was (and still is) just under 7000ft(Thanks Kieron) and didn't have arrestor cables.

[Kieron Kirk]

The runway at Wisley is/was 6,700 ft.USAF/USN Flip Jan 1966.

Kieron

[DaveReidUK]

The runway at Wisley is/was 6,700 ft.USAF/USN Flip Jan 1966.

Google Earth agrees, there's no way a 9,000 runway could have been shoehorned into the space available.

I've never seen a photo of an F-4K with a brake chute, so I doubt they had them fitted - given that every carrier landing is a potential bolter, that's probably the last thing you'd want trailing behind you!

[DaveReidUK]

I've never seen a photo of an F-4K with a brake chute

I stand corrected - I have now:

The Story of the Daily Mail Trans-Atlantic Air Race (http://www.fleetairarmoa.org/content/sites/faaoa/uploads/NewsDocuments/1469/The_Daily_Mail_Transatlantic_Race.PDF) (P12 & P14)

[staircase]

I have a list, and I have used this website to send you an email.

If you don't receive it PM me.

[chevvron]

Google Earth agrees, there's no way a 9,000 runway could have been shoehorned into the space available.



Unfortunately Wisley closed the year before I was posted to Farnborough otherwise I dare say I would have more knowledge of it's characteristics, so just a guess on my part based on personal observation (flown over it several times) and the amount of runway needed for a loaded Valiant.
They had to build a substantial earthwork at the western end just to get 6,700ft; you can still see it from the A3.
I've amended my previous message.

[chevvron]

I'm told that when the Phantoms landed at Wisley, they invariably burst one or two tyres. Don't know why, did FAA Phantoms not have brake chutes maybe? The runway was (and still is) just under 7000ft(Thanks Kieron) and didn't have arrestor cables.

Found the possible explanation in the article posted by Dave Reid; to save time they only landed easterly ('straight in') at Wisley hence there was possibly a tailwind component for some landings.

[RedhillPhil]

Two of the piccies clearly show brake 'chutes deployed.

[Bergerie1]

I was one of the co-pilots on the BOAC Super VC10 G-ASGH which took part in the Daily Mail Transatlantic Air Race on 4 May 1969. The captain was Mike O'Sullivan, the other co-pilot Dave Martin and the flight engineer Alan Harmer.

The aircraft was chartered by a prominent business man (I forget who) taking a full load of businessmen and a runner from Heathrow to New York. We didn't win anything but I remember we crossed the Atlantic flying well above the normal Mach No. in a flight time of 6 hrs 41 mins. When we arrived in New York our runner disappeared on a motor bike while over 100 bowler hatted businessmen, all in pinstriped suits, carrying briefcases and twirling furled umbrellas marched down the steps and across the tarmac into the terminal. It was a sight to behold!

Our passengers enjoyed it all so much they asked for the same crew to take them back to London, which we did on 11 May in G-ASGI with a flight time of 6 hrs 35 mins.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I remember hearing a local west London resident of the time saying how the Harrier taking off from the coal yards caused a fine coal dust cloud to fall all over a wide area covering all the washing hanging out to dry on the many streets. The hours spent hand scrubbing everything back then were for nought and the mothers of the area were on the war path!

Also I think that the RAF did a practice run the day before the race to iron out any kinks before the big day, although that probably didn't include the St Pancras coal yards ;-) The 'practice' was a complete sortie across the Atlantic with all associated tankers etc.

[chevvron]

Also I think that the RAF did a practice run the day before the race to iron out any kinks before the big day, although that probably didn't include the Paddington coal yards ;-)

Not surprising since they operated out of 'RAF St Pancras'!

[DaveReidUK]

Two of the piccies clearly show brake 'chutes deployed.

On the pages I highlighted in my previous post, in fact.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

Does anyone know of similar information for the 1959 London-Paris race?

I am aware that a French AF aircraft overran the runway upon landing at RAF Kenley, but other than that I don't know who else competed, in what, and what were the results.

[chevvron]

Does anyone know of similar information for the 1959 London-Paris race?

I am aware that a French AF aircraft overran the runway upon landing at RAF Kenley, but other than that I don't know who else competed, in what, and what were the results.
I was in a coach returning home to Chesham from school camp at St Marys Bay on Romney Marsh. We'd seen a lot of 'strange' aircraft flying over all week(we weren't far from Lydd and those Bristol Freighters kept you awake all night) including a Bleriot monoplane (kind of sticks in your memory) and on the Embankment near Vauxhall Bridge we were stuck in traffic when a Royal Navy Whirlwind (piston engined version)descended onto a landing pad on the Thames next to us, disgorged one person who leapt onto a motorbike and sped off. It was from the Arc de Triomphe to Marble Arch and vice-versa.
Biggin Hill was still RAF so RAF competitors used that (Hunter from Villacoublay) along with a Bristol Sycamore to Chelsea Reach then motorbike.
One competitor used a Piaggio P136 amphibian between the Thames and the Seine.

[WHBM]

Always thought the ingenious run on London to New York was the guy at the start point (top of Post Office Tower) with nothing, no money or ticket. He went down, asked a garage if he could wash a car, with the money earned he phoned round from a public telephone and got various sponsorships and commissions, enough to buy a ticket (at 1969 walk-up prices) to New York.

Was possibly all arranged beforehand, including his BBC coverage, but nevertheless quite clever.

[Wander00]

Wasn't one of the trans-Atlantic Phantoms crewed by Alcock and Brown, each a descendent of one of the Vimy crew of 1919

[DaveReidUK]

Wasn't one of the trans-Atlantic Phantoms crewed by Alcock and Brown, each a descendent of one of the Vimy crew of 1919

No.

There was an Alcock family connection, however, with Sir John's 18-year-old niece Anne Alcock as one of the competitors:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XoUAAOSwH09ZDuDn/s-l500.jpg

[Wander00]

DR - OK thanks - will revert to usual slumber position

[WHBM]

Looking at the Flight link above, there were several prizes for the "most ingenious" method, not connected with time taken. Would be interesting to know what the winners of those actually did.

when a Royal Navy Whirlwind (piston engined version)descended onto a landing pad on the Thames next to us, disgorged one person who leapt onto a motorbike and sped off. It was from the Arc de Triomphe to Marble Arch
There was a later single attempt at this probably in the late 1960s when on the Saturday evening BBC teatime show they had someone do the same run, in a Hunter (and bits at both ends) within the duration of the program, which was probably one hour.


I don't recall the route, but do remember that to while away some of the time they had a guy who was going for the world record for the number of times he could jump into and out of a pair of underpants in two minutes, and one of the show presenters competed alongside him. Talk about trivialising the main subject matter.

[treadigraph]

Wasn't one of the trans-Atlantic Phantoms crewed by Alcock and Brown, each a descendent of one of the Vimy crew of 1919

There was an Alcock and Brown crewed Phantom with a special scheme at RIAT 79 (?), 60th anniversary of their crossing.

[DaveReidUK]

There was an Alcock and Brown crewed Phantom with a special scheme at RIAT 79 (?), 60th anniversary of their crossing.

FGR.2 XV424, crewed by Sqn Ldr Tony Alcock (nephew of Sir John) and Flt Lt Norman Browne (no connection), 21st June 1979. Also on board was A&B's original 1919 toy black cat mascot "Twinkletoes".

http://www.aviationphotocompany.com/img/s/v-3/p1428311528-3.jpg

[chevvron]

Looking at the Flight link above, there were several prizes for the "most ingenious" method, not connected with time taken. Would be interesting to know what the winners of those actually did.


There was a later single attempt at this probably in the late 1960s when on the Saturday evening BBC teatime show they had someone do the same run, in a Hunter (and bits at both ends) within the duration of the program, which was probably one hour.


I don't recall the route, but do remember that to while away some of the time they had a guy who was going for the world record for the number of times he could jump into and out of a pair of underpants in two minutes, and one of the show presenters competed alongside him. Talk about trivialising the main subject matter.

There was also one on Noel Edmond's 'Late Late Breakfast Show' in the '80s between Biggin and Beauvais or vice versa. One of the competitors was Niki Lauda in his Falcon 20.
Some of the civilian aircraft inbound to Biggin were doing letdowns in about 300ft cloud ceiling which might not be classed as legal nowadays.

[treadigraph]

Thanks Dave, I was going to suggest that RIAT '79 was also the Phantom's 25th anniversary but that seemed a bit early - it was, of course, the C-130's 25th! Phantom's was '83. Sorry for the drift...

[VentureGo]

Found this in the Archives section:

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/98642-transatlantic-air-race-1969-a.html

As next year will mark the 100th Anniversary wonder if there are any plans to commemorate in a similar fashion.
I have an interest in that my father was a guest of Crosse & Blackwell and other businessmen including Jack Cohen of Tesco. Crosse & Blackwell sponsored Stirling Moss and incentivised their key buyers for a place on the LGW yo JFK leg, visiting the Empire State Building and staying at The Roosevelt Hotel. Stirling Moss left the Post Office Tower to join the BUA VC10 waiting at Gatwick with guests on board, ready for an immediate take-off to race in that category. My father told me the take-off was very fast, and the sensation of speed was apparent on harsh/rapid deceleration ordered when entering JFK airspace!

Wonder if anyone can contribute? - Be interesting to know if Stirling Moss remembers and any photos of event?

From article:
" May 1969. The Daily Mail London - New York transatlantic air race, commemorating the 50th anniversary of Alcock anFrd Brown's crossing of the Atlantic, between the RAF and RN.

The RAF used a Harrier GR1 operating out of Northolt. Flown by Squadron Leader Tom Lecky-Thompson, the flight, in XV741, involved 4 air-to-air refuellings (Victor K1s) and took 6 hr 11 min 57 sec landing at at Floyd Bennett Naval Air Station. (Floyd Bennett is located in the southern part of Brooklyn between Flatbush Avenue and Jamaica Bay).

The RN provided a F-4K from 892 Sqn out of Yeovilton. Also supported by the K1s, they set a record flight time of 4 hours 46 minutes and 57 seconds.

[DaveReidUK]

From article:

The RAF used a Harrier GR1 operating out of Northolt. Flown by Squadron Leader Tom Lecky-Thompson, the flight, in XV741, involved 4 air-to-air refuellings (Victor K1s) and took 6 hr 11 min 57 sec landing at at Floyd Bennett Naval Air Station. (Floyd Bennett is located in the southern part of Brooklyn between Flatbush Avenue and Jamaica Bay).

The Harrier's record flight actually landed at the end of E 25th St in downtown Manhattan, not at Floyd Bennett, having departed from a coal yard adjacent to St Pancras station.

2joCFwckrTs

[MacBoero]

https://youtu.be/XDgJbOzDDU0

[NRU74]

(Thought I’d posted this before, but can’t find it)

I was on one of the several Tankertrash Victor crews operating out of Loring and Goose during the Air Race.
I have to say that the Fishheads organised an absolutely cracking pi$$up for the RAF and RN participants afterwards in
the Inigo Jones Banqueting Hall in Whitehall ( where we ‘stole’ the Celebratory cake to take to the RAF Club- but were apprehended by the RN Police in Whitehall with no further action taken).

[ICM]

Not mentioned thus far is the independent entry organised by 10 Squadron that won the subsonic New York to London section only to be disqualified on a technicality.

Sgt (W) Heather Robinson, then an Air Quartermaster, was selected as 'the runner' and arrangements were made around a VC 10 training flight. Outbound, she rode pillion on a RAF Police motorbike to a yard near St Pancras from where a Wessex took her to Wisley and a waiting aircraft. From JFK, a helicopter and sports car took her to the Empire State building - a total time of 7:17:52. Atlantic winds suggested a much better return time on 8 May. As things would turn out, the non-availability of the sports car to get to JFK would prove critical, and a motorbike was used instead. At JFK, she was unceremoniously hauled into the forward (Lower) freight door, to brace in the space as the aircraft took off. The Atlantic crossing went exceedingly well and she clocked-in at the GPO Tower in 6:29:11. This was the winning subsonic time until the intervention of a bearded celebrity (mentioned in that Movietone Newsreel, above) who pointed out that the rules required the same modes of transport both out and back, and Heather was disqualified. (Whilst rules are rules, there was a feeling that he was somewhat put out by the number of prizes going to the Services.)

Nonetheless, Rothmans, the tobacco company and sponsors of the subsonic category, subsequently recognised the 'win' by presenting a silver salver at a function at Brize Norton. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1620x2000/image_391798f7142770ee646d9a1d9fb89a53c32874be.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1010/image_5_9534c2124b08b4f8f9cbbc330497dab5e9ee0469.jpg

[pulse1]

I have to say that the Fishheads organised an absolutely cracking pi$$up........
They also organised a fantastic fly past (beat up) of the Flight Refuelling Ltd, Wimborne factory to thank them. After a sedate fly past of Sea Vixens and Phantoms they came back individually going very fast and extremely low. I swear I was looking down on some of them as they crossed the river bridge. I suspect that they made such a spectacular job to rub in the fact that the RAF had missed the factory by a long way on a previous occasion that year.

[bill fly]

So now it is 2019 and 50 years since the Daily Mail race - and therefore 100 years since the epic flight.

By coincidence I was on the same RAF intake as Tony Alcock and later on was involved in the race while on 55 Squadron,from
which a couple of aircraft refueled the Royal Navy Phantoms Eastbound. The other Squadrons, 57 and 214, plus some 55 members
were involved with the Harriers Westbound. The US were interested in buying Harriers and the opportunity for some publicity was not lost
on the industry, as the "jump jet" could operate very close to the two towers and reduce ground transit. The Royal Navy then as now needed
no excuse for a little publicity - especially as "cuts" were very much in the news.

As the Harriers were not terribly fast in cruise, compared to the Phantoms, they were accompanied all the way across the pond
by the Victor K1A tankers. The Phantoms, on the other hand went full belt, which meant they had to fly as a pair and rendezvous a couple
of times with the 55 Squadron tankers - over the Canadian coast and also mid Atlantic. Our crew got "lumbered" for the latter role, which involved
carrying out an RV at an incredibly fast closing rate and then giving the Phantoms as quickly as possible their fuel. The Navy had positioned a ship
to provide some sort of radar coverage but the RV was carried out using air to air procedures available at that time (Tacan for DME ranging, VHF DF
for heaiding adjustment and finally the radar on the fighters for the final join up). We were lucky to have a very good cool navigator on the crew and the RVs worked out very well.

The Phantoms were faster every day (there were three pairs) and the last pair requested us to climb during the fuel transfer so they could reach cruise altitude quicker. This was unheard of as most receivers asked us to "toboggan" - descend - as their weight increased, Our Nav Radar, who was also the refueling operator on the periscope called out "They are using afterburner!" This was a playoff between fuel economy and speed and we gave them a fair bit more than planned - though we still had enough on board..

After refueling, the Phantoms shot off past us with long afterburner trails and on landing opened the rear hatch, so that the observer could be winched out by Wessex during the landing roll and whisked off to London. All great fun and the Daily Mail had a field day with the results. I still have some beaten up ante room copies which I , er, requesitioned.

The last crew got the record of 5 hours and 9 minutes. As has been noted above, a right royal party followed at the Banqueting Hall in London, where I recall, there was not too much to eat but plenty to drink - as befits crabs and fishes. DJ Simon Dee had been invited and the RN had contined to pull out all the stops till the end. All good, operational, book out of the window stuff.

Now... What is going to happen this year? Were you involved? If you were and you were on tankers please p.m. me so I can get tpgether a list of possible invitees if something comes up in May... No guarantees at this point...



.

[staircase]

bill fly, check your private messages

[bill fly]

Many thanks Staircase,

I have contacted you directly and have at least a few Victor drivers now who were involved.

PS to celebrate being able to post a url, here is the R Navy do back in 1969 at the Banqueting house...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1563/air_race_celebration_65e8b36c6939078979ac49ed61d511212d5caac 6.jpg

[NRU74]

Blimey,
Alistair looks so young (suppose he was then) but what’s Larry Blake trying to look at ?
(I’ve a couple of photos from the Pi$$ up that I’ll try to find and upload)

[GeeRam]

So now it is 2019 and 50 years since the Daily Mail race
.

50 years.......scary thought........only seems like yesterday that it was a sunny spring day and I was a 6 year old kid playing with the younger lad from next door on the open grassed area in front of our homes, about 2 miles south-east of RAF Northolt, when this almighty loud noise came from behind, and I looked up to see a Harrier streaking fast and very low over our heads heading north-west towards RAF Northolt. I can remember standing there thinking......oh wow, and hoping it would come back, as the young lad from next door ran screaming into his Mum :p

[bill fly]

Well, thanks to Staircase and some others, we managed to get 5 ex 55 Sqn participants down to Brooklands on 8.May for the Great Air Race reception.
Nice to see the other participants from various categories - and to see the First and Fastest exhibit, with the Vickers Vimy replica and the beautifully restored Harrier, which was flown by Sqn Ldr Lecky Thompson.

We'll have to do it again in 50 years...

According to the Galway Daily, the statue of Alcock and Brown is temporarily in Cliften, Ireland (in the Abbeyglen Castle Hotel) as part of the 100 year anniversary of their flight in June 1919.

[bill fly]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/air_racers_brooklandsred_8fb02b027ea3c8492ac35590820a1834f5a 26cd5.jpg
The Assembled Participants - Heather Robinson in red (see post 30)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/55_air_racers_brooklands_2019red_0a0d53694dd6b8c959b28548adb a10eca9f9b6fc.jpg
The 55 Sqn Tanker Contingent

[staircase]

I was a bit surprised that it was not better attended, or that the 50th anniversary was not more widely publicised.

However, then my offspring did point out that no one under 50 was alive at the time, and that no one under 60 would have remembered the event.

But, good have been there and seen you all, and swap the stories, and well done to the staff at Brooklands for their efforts.

[BEagle]

staircase, give your offspring a smart cuff about the swede! Many of us old gits remember not just the 1969 race, but also the 1959 Marble Arch - Arc de Triomphe race. In which a French Air Force Vautour mistook Kenley for Biggin Hill and landed on the grass!

The race was won, of course, by an RAF Sqn Ldr in 40 min 44 sec.

[Haraka]

BEags . One family associate involved in a civil effort in the '59 race was Chris Draper ( a.k.a. "The Mad Major" ) flying a certain well-endowed female contestant - mainly just as a publicity stunt. Most of the time she complained of being cold, he told me .
Her name was :
.
,
,
Sabrina! .

[BEagle]

Poor Sabrina. In later years she suffered from constant back pain due to her....startling anatomical features and surgery to ease the pain was botched, more or less crippling her. She became addicted to pain killers to ease the pain but eventually became a recluse and passed away from blood poisoning in 2016 at the age of 80.

[Jhieminga]

Right, before we get too much off-topic and start discussing Hunter ammo-pods, here's a photo of the 'First to the Fastest' exhibition at Brooklands. It's worth a visit.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/firstfastest_120519_067ac08a9a07e340ebe5e851d9a9b005d1a497a1 .jpg

[bill fly]

Right, before we get too much off-topic and start discussing Hunter ammo-pods, here's a photo of the 'First to the Fastest' exhibition at Brooklands. It's worth a visit.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/firstfastest_120519_067ac08a9a07e340ebe5e851d9a9b005d1a497a1 .jpg
Whereby the fastest (Phantom entry) is not physically present - (yet?)

[Jhieminga]

Let's agree that they were both winners. And if anyone is willing to have a Phantom restored and loans it to the museum, I'm sure they will add it to the exhibition.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/724x154/screenshot_2019_05_14_at_21_54_23_37a048899a03f77f60d00f913d 3fe172642a7be0.png

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Didn't No. 543 Squadron, RAF Wyton -make a contribution to the Air Race?


Aaron.

[DaveReidUK]

Didn't No. 543 Squadron, RAF Wyton -make a contribution to the Air Race?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/514x399/airracecompetitors_8f569b7d7e319b029063cc8da68121582995c54e. jpg

543 Squadron (Personal Memories Page) (http://www.543sqn.org.uk/memories.html)

[staircase]

Yes they did, and one member of the 543 team was at Brooklands last week to represent them.

[Heatseeker]

I remember watching on TV seeing something big and grey landing at an airport near you on the return leg to the U.K.
The aircraft touched down and as it slowed down a pair of legs appeared from the belly of it and then some body parts at which point the feed made contact with the ground and started pedaling and when the grey thing finally slowed right down the rest of the body appeared and did an "exit stage left" and from memory jumped onto a motor bike and was gone. I remember thinking, I hope they've got their timing sorted out.........

[Jhieminga]

There's some great footage here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbBsLwKjxyM

From:
https://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/remembering-the-remarkable-transatlantic-air-race-between-the-bt-tower-and-the-empire-state-building-11364269723196

[bill fly]

Thanks for the Post Office film link!
Heather, Ann and Simon were all at the Brooklands event along with Lecky Thompson and his Harrier this month.
As no-one mentioned the necessary tankers for the Harrier and the Phantom in the footage, I will.
Would have been good if the Daily Mail, who started the whole thing in 1919 could have been part of the show in 2019.

[Jhieminga]

Interesting thoughts from 1969:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/502x343/screenshot_2019_05_25_at_15_19_22_66a85b4ad0d81a48ffd3ec1dbe feb352f771abb9.png
I guess we didn't quite get there... the full article is here: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1969/1969%20-%201055.html?search=daily%20mail%20air%20race

[Haraka]

"I guess we didn't quite get there."
Thank God!

[FayJ]

I am researching the history of a Cheltenham Guide Company for its Centenary. On of its former members was Mrs Julia Turner (nee Wallace) who flew with Mr Vivian Wales in a Piper Comanche. After Guides she joined the Air Rangers and learnt to fly. They won a share of a prize for the most meritorious losers .
I would be interested to learn more about her so if anyone knows anything or can suggest routes for further research I would be grateful.

[treadigraph]

Fay, I believe Dorothy Saul-Pooley is involved with the UK branch of the Ninety-Nines (https://www.ninety-nines.org/find-a-chapter.htm), an American organisation for women pilots. Julia might be a member as was Sheila Scott.

[Jhieminga]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/729x67/screenshot_2019_06_26_at_17_10_33_c32cb639632374cf650c06e8fb 09add7f7681325.png
She is listed as one of the three winners in category 'P'. According to FlightGlobal, this category was for:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/342x96/screenshot_2019_06_26_at_17_12_24_04dc7ee81b08bb3ac675765f2d 9eb1e41975f0c6.png

[FayJ]

Thank you for this. Very interesting

[jindabyne]

The Harriers also did this -----

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/hudson_harriers_640x427__bed52c09563e4d6cb4b2ff585650dd80fbf 08fda.jpg

[Dan Dare]

I think it's worth resurrecting this thread and I'll use the excuse of a few minutes of interesting footage from 37:00 on Morning Live this morning mostly but about Alcock and Brown, but at 40:00 Lecky Thompson reminiscing about the trip was nice to see. It will only be available until March 2024 and probably only for British browsers or those who have a TV licence, honest Guv.

BBC iPlayer - Morning Live - Series 5: 24/04/2023 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001ld22/morning-live-series-5-24042023)

[Sotonsean]

The Harriers also did this -----

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x427/hudson_harriers_640x427__bed52c09563e4d6cb4b2ff585650dd80fbf 08fda.jpg

Great painting one of which I've never seen before.

For information purposes only, the Cunard Line RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 arrived in New York, USA on her maiden westbound transatlantic crossing from Southampton via Cherbourg at 08.00 local time on the 07 May 1969. The RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 departed New York at 16.30 local time the following day on the 08 May 1969 for her maiden eastbound crossing back to Southampton via Cherbourg.

The single Harrier that took part in the race took 6.33 minutes to complete the race which occurred on the 04 May 1969.

The painting is obviously a superimposed version which never occurred in reality, but a great painting non the less.

My late grandfather was on that particular voyage as a Restaurant Manager serving in the vessels Britannia Restaurant. He served with Cunard Line for a total of 51 year's. I personally followed in his footsteps in September 1983 as a fresh faced 18yo and joined the Cunard Line and in particular on-board the Queen Elizabeth 2. I initially joined as a junior waiter and worked my way up to the rank of Purser. My personal association with Cunard Line will mark it's 40th anniversary this coming September.

Also for information purposes only, there is a whole page dedicated to this particular race on Wikipedia which I'm sure will be of interest to those reading this thread.

[treadigraph]

Sotonsean, the race took place between 4th and 11th May and I believe three Harriers were involved, one flown London - New York by Lecky-Thompson and two were positioned to New York earlier, one for the return leg and a second as a spare. John Farley flew over and the ultimately successful opportunity was taken to flog the Harrier to the USMC; so two Harriers in New York around the time and not impossible for them to have provided an escort for the QEII!

[Jhieminga]

Also for information purposes only, there is a whole page dedicated to this particular race on Wikipedia which I'm sure will be of interest to those reading this thread.
I have a page on my website that only covers the entrants with a VC10 connection, but may be interesting nonetheless: https://www.vc10.net/Memories/DailyMailRace.html
Guy Ellis also has a lot of information about the race online here: https://sites.google.com/view/dmtaar/home
The Wikipedia page is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail_Trans-Atlantic_Air_Race

[chevvron]

The painting is obviously a superimposed version which never occurred in reality, but a great painting non the less.


It did occur in reality; I remember watching the video of it although the Harriers were a bit further away from the ship and the video was shot just inside the bridge between Staten Island and Brooklyn rather than next to the Statue of liberty.
After the record attempt, I understand the two Harriers operated out of Floyd Bennet Naval Air Station in Brooklyn.
Of course, this all happened before the US bought Harriers having seen how ours were able to land in Manhattan; now look what's happened to us; we've 'given' all our remaining Harriers to the USMC and have no equivalent replacement, the F35b's being totally different animals..

[Sotonsean]

Sotonsean, the race took place between 4th and 11th May and I believe three Harriers were involved, one flown London - New York by Lecky-Thompson and two were positioned to New York earlier, one for the return leg and a second as a spare. John Farley flew over and the ultimately successful opportunity was taken to flog the Harrier to the USMC; so two Harriers in New York around the time and not impossible for them to have provided an escort for the QEII!

Well I've seen actually 100s of photos and videos of the maiden arrival of the Queen Elizabeth 2 in New York Harbour and I've not seen one Harrier near to the vessel.

If indeed there were Harriers nearby when she arrived in New York Harbour on her maiden transatlantic crossing on the 07 May 1969 they were not seen in any photos that I have witnessed.

If indeed they were they must have been a fair distance from the vessel itself. I'm not doubting this fact but it's something that I've been totally unaware of until this topic was brought up.

And there's me thinking that I'm an absolute historian when it comes to anything related to or concerning to my MUCH beloved RMS Queen Elizabeth 2.

There are limited photos of her maiden departure from New York so that's when they probably appeared. But obviously the painting gives a completely different perspective as the Queen Elizabeth 2 just like any other vessel departing New York, they wouldn't be sailing past the Statue of Liberty at that angle.

I can't remember my late Grandfather mentioning any Harrier Escort and from my 16 years working on-board the Queen Elizabeth 2 I hadn't come across any story to back that up. Plus with all the nostalgia on-board the vessel including many magnificent paintings I've never come across the one posted in this thread.

FYI It's the Queen Elizabeth 2 or just QE2 for short. No roman numerals in her name, it's very much looked down upon in maritime circles especially within Cunard Line when the inappropriate term of QEII is used. The same applies to our current flagship, the magnificent Queen Mary 2.

Both vessels are named after their predecessors. The RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 was named after the original RMS Queen Elizabeth from 1939. The RMS Queen Elizabeth 2 was named after the original ship even though our late HRH Queen Elizabeth II named her at her launching ceremony at the former John Brown shipyard on the River Clyde in 1967.

The Queen Mary 2 is currently in the Port of Southampton with an engine fault which meant that her transatlantic crossing to New York on Sunday 23 April 2023 was cancelled which has caused disruption to 1000s of guests including 18 dogs. This transatlantic crossing would have also been part of the final leg of her 2023 World cruise.

I'm actually typing this reply within touching distance of the Queen Mary 2 which incidentally I had breakfast aboard this morning.

[Hew Jampton]

Tom Lecky-Thompson told me that towards the end of his RAF service he enquired of the CAA about getting a PPL. They asked for evidence of a qualifying solo cross country, so he said London to New York; they said it had to be a triangular cross country and as his London - New York didn't have an intermediate landing, it didn't count.

[brakedwell]

I remember the race as I flew an RAF Britannia to the Floyd Bennett Naval Base in New York with spare parts and ground crew on board for the Harrier and Phantom contingent. We had a good night in New York then returned to Lyneham.

[GeeRam]

Sotonsean, the race took place between 4th and 11th May and I believe three Harriers were involved, one flown London - New York by Lecky-Thompson and two were positioned to New York earlier, one for the return leg and a second as a spare. John Farley flew over and the ultimately successful opportunity was taken to flog the Harrier to the USMC; so two Harriers in New York around the time and not impossible for them to have provided an escort for the QEII!

There were only two Harriers in New York at the time, XV741 flown over by Sdr. Ldr Tom Lecky-Thompson on what would be the winning east-west crossing, and XV744, which had been flown over in advance a few weeks earlier by Lecky-Thompson, for the attempt on the west-east crossing. Lecky-Thompson flew back to UK via BOAC, and Sdr.Ldr Graham Williams, who was going to fly the west-east flight, flew to New York by BOAC. Lecky-Thompson and Williams were at the time 2 of only 3 RAF pilots cleared to fly the Harrier at the time.
It was the evening after Lecky-Thompson arrived in New York after his record setting east-west flight that, he and Williams were having a drink in a New York bar watching the TV which showed that QE2 was due to arrive a day or so later on her maiden voyage, that the two pilots hatched the plan to escort QE2 into NYC, partly so as to not have QE2's arrival upstaging their own success, and without any official permission from RAF but being given permission from both FAA and the NYCPA, and banking on asking for any forgiveness from RAF after the event!!
Lecky-Thompson and Williams took off from NAS Floyd-Bennet Field and escorted QE2 in the hover, and both pilots were invited to the QE2's welcome cocktail party but had to decline as Williams had to prepare for his departure the following day for his west-east run in '744.

Sotonsean, while you may not have heard about it or seen photo's, this hover escort sortie is well known about, even among QE2 people, and also made the British National Newspapers after the event. As such both pilots had no come back from the RAF, a VSO subsequently claiming that it was his idea by all accounts...!!

John Farley flew over via BOAC, and he and Lecky-Thompson shared the demo flying of '741 to the USMC in the following days, although Williams had done some preliminary work for that with '744 prior to the arrival of Lecky-Thompson in '741, and the rest as they say is history.

[chevvron]

There were only two Harriers in New York at the time, XV741 flown over by Sdr. Ldr Tom Lecky-Thompson on what would be the winning east-west crossing, and XV744, which had been flown over in advance a few weeks earlier by Lecky-Thompson, for the attempt on the west-east crossing. Lecky-Thompson flew back to UK via BOAC, and Sdr.Ldr Graham Williams, who was going to fly the west-east flight, flew to New York by BOAC. Lecky-Thompson and Williams were at the time 2 of only 3 RAF pilots cleared to fly the Harrier at the time.
It was the evening after Lecky-Thompson arrived in New York after his record setting east-west flight that, he and Williams were having a drink in a New York bar watching the TV which showed that QE2 was due to arrive a day or so later on her maiden voyage, that the two pilots hatched the plan to escort QE2 into NYC, partly so as to not have QE2's arrival upstaging their own success, and without any official permission from RAF but being given permission from both FAA and the NYCPA, and banking on asking for any forgiveness from RAF after the event!!
Lecky-Thompson and Williams took off from NAS Floyd-Bennet Field and escorted QE2 in the hover, and both pilots were invited to the QE2's welcome cocktail party but had to decline as Williams had to prepare for his departure the following day for his west-east run in '744.

Sotonsean, while you may not have heard about it or seen photo's, this hover escort sortie is well known about, even among QE2 people, and also made the British National Newspapers after the event. As such both pilots had no come back from the RAF, a VSO subsequently claiming that it was his idea by all accounts...!!
.
Hmm; there was a Graham Williams who was posted in to Farnborough in about 1982 I think to assume the post of CO Experimental Flying as Gp Capt; I wonder if this was the same person?
He was only there for about 18 months then he went to Boscombe Down as commandant/Air Cdre.

[GeeRam]

Hmm; there was a Graham Williams who was posted in to Farnborough in about 1982 I think to assume the post of CO Experimental Flying as Gp Capt; I wonder if this was the same person?
He was only there for about 18 months then he went to Boscombe Down as commandant/Air Cdre.

Could be...?
He retired as an AVM.

[treadigraph]

GeeRam, I've dug out my copy of John Farley's "A View From the Hover" and he definitely mentions the two Harriers flown each way in the race by Tom Lecky-Thompson and Graham Williams, plus a third as a spare flown out by Andy Jones, who I recall as being a HSA test pilot and who later flew demos in the Hawk? Two Harriers, plus JF and Lecky-Thompson and a sales team including Bill Bedford to do the pitch to the USMC.

[GeeRam]

GeeRam, I've dug out my copy of John Farley's "A View From the Hover" and he definitely mentions the two Harriers flown each way in the race by Tom Lecky-Thompson and Graham Williams, plus a third as a spare flown out by Andy Jones, who I recall as being a HSA test pilot and who later flew demos in the Hawk? Two Harriers, plus JF and Lecky-Thompson and a sales team including Bill Bedford to do the pitch to the USMC.

When did the HSA TP fly the 3rd a/c out, I suspect after Williams had made the return leg in '744, as the HS TP would have needed Victor tanker support as well.
I know Bill Bedford was there, as he was involved in distracting the FAA rep at take-off site for Williams west-east attempt in '744, as weather wasn't good in the morning when due to take-off, and they were worried about the FAA rep stopping it, so Bill kept him 'occupied' allowing Williams to take off from the dockside before he could do anything to stop it... :E

[treadigraph]

GeeRam, he just says it was ferried out earlier to act as a spare. I don't know if Andy Jones was HSA at the time or perhaps still with the RAF and 1 Sqn (I was only 5 in '69 and blissfully unaware of The Great Race!).

[GeeRam]

GeeRam, he just says it was ferried out earlier to act as a spare. I don't know if Andy Jones was HSA at the time or perhaps still with the RAF and 1 Sqn (I was only 5 in '69 and blissfully unaware of The Great Race!).

I would guess he was HSA, as at the time of the race the only 3 RAF Harrier pilots cleared to fly the aircraft were Sdn.Ldr Mike Adams who was seconded to HSA Test Team as OPLO, and Tom Lecky-Thompson & Graham Williams who were TP's at A&AEE. Mike Adams was supposed to fly the east-west flight and Lecky-Thompson the west-east flight with Williams as reserve, as he had the fewest hrs on type of the 3, but Adams injured his back when the nose wheel of the Harrier he was taxiing collasped at Dunsfold, so Lecky-Thompson took the east-west flight and Williams the west-east flight.

[chevvron]

Andy Jones definitely was a Dunsfold TP but whether he was in '69 I don't know. He was certainly at Dunsfold about 5 years later but he was mainly a Hawk man; went out to somewhere in North Africa with a Hawk to demonstrate and flew back to Dunsfold in 2.5 hours non stop and sounded VERY chuffed on the RTF when he got here 'cos he set some sort of speed record.
Got a feeling he might have been banned from flying at Farnborough when he got a bit low during a display one year.

[kenparry]

treadigraph:

This race was sometime before the first Harriers arrived with 1 Sqn, which was around the beginning of August 1969. Andy Jones was definitely not on 1 Sqn during that year. The first RAF Harrier pilots who were not TPs were the Harrier Conversion Team - Dick LeBrocq, Pete Dodworth, Richie Profit, and Bruce Latton, who did their conversions at Dunsfold. Later they were joined by Hoof Proudfoot. They were the guys who did the conversions of 1 Sqn and 4 Sqn (UK echelon), which had previously been 54 Sqn.

[GeeRam]

Hmm; there was a Graham Williams who was posted in to Farnborough in about 1982 I think to assume the post of CO Experimental Flying as Gp Capt; I wonder if this was the same person?
He was only there for about 18 months then he went to Boscombe Down as commandant/Air Cdre.

Chevron, confirmation that it is the same person.
Commandant A&AEE was his final flying tour, before flying a desk at MOD for last 5 years of service.

[chevvron]

Chevron, confirmation that it is the same person.
Commandant A&AEE was his final flying tour, before flying a desk at MOD for last 5 years of service.
Excellent chap; we in ATC got on well with him.
I invited him to my ATC Squadron's annual dinner as guest of honour and would you believe he never even mentioned the race. Mind you I was sat next to his wife and she seemed to spend the whole evening chatting to me. I think they had a daughter who, like me, was a 'VRT officer.

[treadigraph]

kenparry , looks like Andy Jones joined HSA from Boscombe in the early '70s along with Jim Hawkins specifically as project pilots for the Hawk. Presume he could have been involved on the Harrier project during acceptance test flying or whatever process was involved in getting the aircraft into service.

[brakedwell]

I knew Graham well as we were both living in the same block of flats in Maalla, Aden when he was on 8 Sqn Hunters and I was on 105, Argosies. I went to several 8 Sqn does with him and we both finished up in trouble with our better halves! The next time we met was several years later just before he left for New York when we were taking spares and ground crew to Floyd Bennet Naval Air Station. He was a very nice guy.