OAT Going up the spout!?!

[Added Extra]

What are OAT up to at the moment? I have just discovered that they are making even more redundancies!?! Is it slowly crumbling to the ground or what? Why are they in such trouble, I know the events of September 11th have hit them hard but the management seem to be on a path to destruction. Even from where I stand I can see that decisions are being made in haste with out proper thought. Where is the money being lost or wasted that they need to make even more redundancies? We should have seen it coming when OAT suddenly stopped appearing in the Media only to appear again sometime later with inferior adverts. Can anyone tell me what's going on over there?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I VERY much doubt that OATS is going to go bust any time soon. Such idle speculation is a waste of breath and bandwidth.

WWW

[Added Extra]

And you think the other topics these pilots tend to discuss are anymore valid? This a serious point. OAT are floundering at the moment and although I agree they probably will remain in the market, they seem to be getting rid of a lot of good people. Explain that!?!

[The Islander]

AE,
Are you training at OATS? If not, how do you know this? Who is being laid-off, ground or flight instructors? Turn your comments into something more substantial and you may get this thread going!

You never know, they may have got rid of the admin staff, in which case we might speculate that they've been reading the rumours on pprune :D

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: The Islander ]

[Quidditch Captain]

Totally agree - So who's gone?

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: MrSpock ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Added Extra. "I heard down the pub last night that xxx school is going bust" threads are not at all welcome at the moment.

If you had made a post that outline what you knew and how and THEN speculated that they might be going bust I would have been a lot happier.

Inside info is very precious at the moment. I want to see as much as possible here. If you have some then please post it. If all you have is a sniff of a hint of a rumour then silence would be preferred.

Cheers,

WWW

[Keith.Williams.]

This might sound rather perverse, but if they are making instructors redundant it is (in a sense) good news!

I know nothing about the financial affairs of OATs but do know a little about the PPSC story. The wage bill was something in the region of £500000 pa. Following the introduction of JAR there simply weren't enough students to cover those costs. The company lost something like £250000 in 2000-2001 and were on the way to doing the same this year.

Had the management taken early action to reduce the workforce (and cut down on other costs), the company would probably still be in business.

If recent comments in this forum are anything to go by, OATs'income (and that of all the other FTOs) has been cut drastically. If this is the case and they do nothing, then no parent company will support them indefinitely.

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: Keith Williams. ]

[Mister Geezer]

Management care to comment????? :confused:

[Base leg]

WWW- I am currently a Modular Student at OATS- and let me tell you first hand, and everyone reading this, things are not at all sweet at the moment- far from it.
More than a sniff of a rumour ?
How about this.....
1. AP 204 given priority over everyone (including IRT's and later BA courses)in case OATS run over time with them and face a penalty, and the contract is not renewed.
(if I was reponsible for BA cadets I would include this time penalty clause in every contract)
2. Recent RAF students, IR training on the Senecca 3, given a dedicated instuctor, and A/C, flying every day, Wx permitting, whilst Modular students sit around waiting for an instructor, or indeed unable to fly a 170A for an IRT , as no A/C is available as remaining A/C were tech. or being used by said RAF.
3.Modular (and BA) students told this week, to start and finish their IRT from Bournemouth, (Don't tell me OATS has no backbone when dealing with the CAA).
4. OATS Modular OPS Manager given terms of notice this week, somebody who works a tireless day, with 5 mins for lunch, bags (sic) of experience, leverage etc. .......no doubt to be replaced by someone who will accept a lower pay packet.
5. 63 engineers from Signature given redundany , aka immediate sick pay.....increasing tournaround time for minor jobs for 'A' defects.
6. Several students a signature on an affadavit away from taking OATS to a not so small claims court.
7.Need I continue...

One last thing, the standard of instruction is beyond reproach, and totally professional.....that said IMHO most instructors would leave if something better came up

Watching this thread with interest.......... :(

[superfurryanimal]

Always said that instuctors were up to scratch, but school let down by the 'back room' boys. Interesting if any of this is true, and have to say not entirely surprised that students now looking at taking legal action against school. There has been far too much messing about with the programme (flying especially) to the detriment of students, and despite students having raised this over and over the school has allowed the situation to deteriorate to this!!

Sorry to see it happen if true, but don't say you couldn't see it coming. Maybe now we can get some professional and effective management practices in force. :( :( :(

[rolling circle]

In recent threads concerning the health of OAT Marigold has been very quick to reply with the standard managementspeak. However, on this occasion he is notable by his absence. Is this significant, I wonder?

The fact is, of course, that OAT will survive until BBA management realise that they are pouring their money into a bottomless pit of incompetent management. When, eventually, light dawns OAT will go under, which is a shame because the real workers, both ground and flight, are the best in the industry. All I can say is 'Thank God I transferred my pension!'

[200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz]

Base Leg

Your post is the best post I have read on the Wannabes forum for a long long time.

Is there anyone else who would like to give some good inside feedback on OATS. I am happy with their ds ground school, but I am not going to hand over any dosh for flying until I am sure they wont give me a hard time..

Anyone?......

[Tosh McCaber]

Base leg

Pardon my ignorance- but what, or who, is AP204?

[EL SID]

Sadly when BBA took over OAT, they chose to remain with a bunch of management who where selected, it appears, more for their lack of management skills and commercial experience than any level of competence and expertise. Having inherited them, BBA seemed to prefer to live with them rather than recruit internally or externally for greater experience and talent. Once, when they seemed to have selected someone who had some skills, they removed him very quickly form his position when he would not be party to their machinations.
They, or at least Signature is, pumping a great deal of money into another money pit called Tyler, where it seems that the rainfall exceeds that of Oxford by a significant margin and all it has to offer it is a cheaper fuel bill. I would have thought it would been more financially expedient to invest in better aircraft than the aging fleet of Arrows and Seneca's who hourly costs and poor utilization must make them more expensive to operate than the revenue recovered through training. If anything was required to be made redundant it was these old beasts, leasing new aircraft couldn't have cost more per hour and even if they did the rise in productivity with a smaller fleet would have had a significant effect on profitability.
I agree with Rolling Circle's comment about the Instructor team at OAT, when will they realize that people are the asset in this business, not land and equipment? Too late for both customer and employees I reckon!

[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: EL SID ]

[Base leg]

AP 204-British Airways Trainee Pilot Course

[Carew]

There has been some excellent debate on this subject and whether fact or fiction it should still be aired. WWW I believe that on this occasion you were very wrong to pre judge the issue in such draconian terms. The fact the topic was raised has already enabled others to come forward with snippets of information. Any investigation is normally solved by putting all the pieces together and this forum should allow for that. Am I wrong to believe that this is no longer a RUMOUR network. Lets have the fact and the fiction because from my experience there is normally no smoke without fire. Free speech and thought are a fundamental right, which we are all entitled to and if it stops some innocent wannabee getting fleeced I am all for it. Feel much better now and all the best to each and everyone of you. :mad: :confused: :D :cool:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah well I just can't see it happening. They have a lot of work and have probably been the most successful FTO of the last 10 years.

Realistically one would imagine CABAIR with their greater exposure to the PPL market is in a worse position. There are a lot of other FTO's out there with shallower pockets than OATS that I would expect to see go to the wall first.

If OATS needed to generate cashflow - ie they really were in crises - they would simply lower the course price £10k and customers would flood in leaving other schools in crisis. They aren't doing that so I see no cause for alarm yet.

Current students moaning about management, sponsored courses being given preference and other such bugbears are nothing new. Every school gets it all the time. Always has done and always will.

I'm not closing the thread or anything so stop having a go at me for pooh poohing it. I am a JAA approved Commercial Flying Instructor with loads of mates in the major schools... my opinion is as valid as the next mans.

Not to forget of course that I was wrong about SFT so who knows..?

Cheers,

WWW

[pjdj777]

I did my BCPL - CPL/IR approved upgrade at OATS Modular this time last year.

WWW is right, being put to the back for sponsored cadets is nothing new, I had to wait for two weeks whilst a bunch of BA cadets finished their courses, in the meantime, no other planes were available. Blydi frustrating it was.

The instructors were top notch, I enjoyed my time and still got finished with three months.

I still think it's a shame they closed the Glos base.

[Carew]

WWW I was not having a go, far from it just putting a point of view for keeping the forum an open market-place. Bit like Albert Square, loads of rumours some of it bollox, but some true. Hope to meet you one day and keep up the excellent work, you certainly helped me to achieve my goal. ;) :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cool. :)

WWW

[Jepp]

Wise man say.

Dont be fooled that, that something as mighty as OATS can go bust,

IT CAN

[Megaton]

One word: ENRON. 'Nuff said?

[Deadleg]

I converted Australian to UK ATPL at OATS. The ground instructors fitted into 2 groups; exceptionally good and exceptionally bad. Our Air Law man kept comming in with different piles of paper, although usually not enough for everyone and would tell us to ignore what he had given us previously as it contained errors. OK fair enough, but this happened 4 TIMES. The Principles of Flight instructor knew little of the subject, example being his absolute conviction that turn radius was proportional to IAS not TAS is but one of the examples I can remember. The remainder of the instructors were very good, particularly our Met man.
I can't comment on the flying side as I left at this point. My reason for doing so was OATS attitude that I should hang about and fit in when they could do something with me, so off to Bristol and GFT & CPL/IR all done in 2-3 weeks(req trg to standard & test), not bad for December.
At the time it struck me that they really were'nt set up for short/modular courses and as a result they did'nt do themselves or us the students justice. If I had to do again(perish the thought) OATS would'nt be my choice.
I believe their cadet product is good and yes I do hope they continue to remain in business.

[Hap Hazard]

:eek: JUST A NOTE TO ALL THOSE OUT THERE THAT ARE IN THAT ARE CONCERNED OVER THE FINANCIAL SITUATION AT YET ANOTHER UK TRAINING ORGANIZATION.
I AM WAY BEHIND CURRENT NEWS ONLY LEARNING OF SFT'S DEMISE ONLY 1 WEEK AGO.
ALL I CAN SAY TO THOSE THINKING OF TRAINING IS DONT PUT TOO MUCH DOSH UP FRONT AND DO IT BY CREDIT CARD IF YOU ARE ENTERING INTO FLYING TRAINING, STUFF THAT YOU ALREADY KNOW NO DOUBT?
I KNOW THAT IT WONT HELP THOSE WHO ARE IN THE CURRENT SITUATION WHERE YOU MAY HAVE LOST MONEY, WHAT CAN ANYBODY SAY BUT SORRY TO HEAR IT?
PERSONALLY I CONSIDER MYSELF LUCKY TO HAVE GONE THROUGH THE SYSTEM IN 1998-99 AND WAS VERY PRIVILAGED TO BE AMOUNST THE LAST TO BENIFIT FROM NVQ'S.
IT WAS MY GRIPE THEN AS IT IS NOW THAT THE INDUSTRY HAS ITSELF TO BLAME FOR LOSING OUT ON A GREAT SCHEME THAT BENIFITED BOTH STUDENT AND SCHOOL ALIKE, BUT WAS BLATENTLY EXPLOITED BY SOME OF THE CROOKS WHO RUN FLIGHT TRAINING IN THE UK...AND I DO NOT NECESSARILY INCLUDE PROPER TRAINING ORGANIZATIONS LIKE OATS, SFT AND SO ON.
WHAT ALWAYS GOT MY GOAT WAS THE FACT THAT MANY OF THE SMALLER SCHOOLS JUMPED ON THE BANDWAGON AND WERE OFFERING NVQ'S ON PPL'S, I BELEIVE, EVEN HOURS BUILDING OUTSIDE THIS COUNTRY....AND NOBODY BOTHERED TO SIGN OFF ANY OF THE MODULES IN THE TRAINING MANUALS THAT WERE TO BE SIGNED OFF.
SO HOW IN THE HELL WAS THE DEPT TRADE AND INDUSTRY SUPPOSED TO ASSES HOW WELL THE SCHEME WAS DOING IF THERE WAS NOBODY IN THE INDUSTRY WILLING TO AT LEAST SIGN OFF THE LOG BOOKS?
NVQ'S SHOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN AVIALABLE TO BONEAFIDE STUDENTS ON RECOGNISED COURSES THAT TRUELY COUNTED TOWARDS A PROFESSIONAL LICENCE....PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELVES WHO NOW HAVE TO PAY HIGHER PRICES FOR A PROFESSIONAL LICENCE.
ALL I CAN SAY TO THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE IS KEEP AT IT, CHOOSE CAREFULLY, LISTEN TO THE ADVICE OF SOME OF THOSE WHO HAVE TREAD THE PATH BEFORE YOU AS THEY MADE THE SAME MISTAKES ALONG THE WAY...EVEN WHEN THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE WAS IN BETTER SHAPE MAJOR TRAINING ORGANIZATIONS WENT UNDER.
ITS A CUT THROAT WORLD AND AT TIMES AND A CUT THROAT INDUSTRY, TESTOMONY TO THE FACT THAT THERE IS FEWER AND FEWER SCHOOLS IN THE UK TO CHOOSE FROM, NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON FOR THEM GOING BUST OR RELOCATING.
ALL I CAN SAY IS ITS NOT ROSY OUT HERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRAINING FENCE, BUT AT LEAST I HAVE A JOB AT THE MOMENT THAT IS ABOUT THE BEST WAY IN THE WORLD AT PAYING A MORTGAGE.
AT SOME TIME THINGS WILL IMPROVE AND YOU NEED TO BE THERE READY FOR WHEN IT DOES.
AND WHEN YOU DO FINALLY GET THERE ALL THE BULL**** IS WORTH IT IF YOU TRUELY LOVE FLYING.....BEST OF LUCK EVERYBODY

[Send Clowns]

WWW is quite right. Idle, uninformed speculation, with which this thread started and has largely continued can only be damaging to OATS and to the industry. It is extremely unfair to post harmful rumours with no real information to support an inflammatory headline.

Credit cards are not necessarily the best way to protect your money. If you are putting money up front, ask the school about setting up an escrow account. Those who had money in one with SFT did not lose out significantly. This not only is good protection but saves you the 3-5% premium most schools will charge on credit card payments (over £1500 on an OATS course!)

[Elizabeth II]

Rolling Circle speaks I believe with some authotity. Only 2 weeks ago OATS were hotly defending themselves on this forum, and this very debate, where are they now?

WWW OATS can't go down?

[englishal]

Well it defeats the purpose of these forums if everyone who doesn't have any idea, accuses someone who does have an idea of causing Idle, uninformed speculation. Let the people who know have their say !

Heaven forbid someone should blaspheme by even suggesting that OAT are in trouble!!

[YouNeverStopLearning]

Facts:

On Friday Oxford Aviation Training announced to staff all over the world that there would be 18 redundancies.

None of these redundancies involve Flight Instructors as they are still short of FI's for work that is definitely being done until mid-2002. However after that.......

OAT not going bust yet......

You get it wrong sometimes WWW.

[200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz]

I think OATS are on to us you know! ;)

[rolling circle]

I think perhaps that now is the time for OAT to really start worrying - after all, look what happened to the last school that Send Clowns sought to defend!

Let's get things in perspective:-

OAT is still (just) the best FTO in the JAA, this is solely because it has attracted the best instructors, both ground and flight.

However, the current senior management is doing its best to alienate all of its best assets. It appoints an excellent IFR Manager who makes the fatal mistake of telling it like it is. This is not what the (aviation illiterate) senior management wants to hear and so said IFR Manager is moved sideways (lawsuit pending). senior management appoint an only slightly less competent IFR Manager who quickly realises that everything his predecessor warned of was, in fact, true. IFR Manager (2) then makes the same fatal mistake of revealing this fact to senior management - the result (not surprisingly) is that IFR Manager (2) gets the boot (decides that, for the good of his family.....etc.)

So, now we have the situation where IFR training at OAT is being run by a Head of Training and VFR Manager, neither of whom hold a valid IR - and this is supposed to be the premier FTO????

At this point the CAA arrive ( for what they are worth). At the annual inspection, OAT's approval is renewed, but only for three months. Marigold passes this off as due to 'administrative problems'. My spies tell me, however, that the main criticism was that OAT suffered from 'a fundamental breakdown of supervision' (i.e. The management were crap!).

Result - all OAT instructors with any competence are actively seeking employment elsewhere. Of course, now is not a good time but, nevertheless, many are finding decent jobs. OAT is surviving on the reputation of a workforce that is rapidly disappearing and it is only a matter of time before the industry realises that it is paying top dollar for a second rate product. Thereafter BBA, whose core business is FBO and jet maintenance, will quickly realise that OAT is nothing more than a useless drain on its resources and will pull the plug.

What WWW, and others, fail to realise is that BBA, unlike BAe, has no inherrent interest in flight training. Their purchase of CSE Aviation had everything to do with CSE Sales and Engineering and nothing at all to do with OAT. One has only to look at the way Kidlington is being developed to understand the priorities of BBA - and it ain't flight training!!

[Base leg]

rolling circle - seems you have your finger on the pulse.
send clowns- find a single modular student who doesn't fully agree with my 1st post and I'll eat my words.

I just hope BBA read this forum as closely as OATS do.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

RC - take your point on the future plans of OATS current owners but I see that as a seperate issue to the immediate one raised on this thread.

I think it spurious to argue that becuase OATS are laying off some staff that they are going bust. Frankly is the weren't I would be more worries. BA Lufthansa and Air France are laying off huge numbers but nobody argues that they are going bust. Its merely the sensible thing to do in a downturn.

Self sponsored courses moaning that airline cadet courses are getting better treatment are nothing new. It will always be this way because the airline cadets are a block and you are but one person. Also there is a pragmatic reality that a school HAS to graduate an airline course on time because they have a very expensive type rating booked for the week after. Whereas the self sponsored guy will merely be in the process of sending out the first wave of his CV + covering letters. Who would you give priority to. No really. Who? The guys with a £19,000 course that HAS to start 3 weeks on Monday or to the other guys who won't even get their licenses back from the CAA for three weeks...

Its not fair but if you don't like it you should have gone to Multiflight/PAT/Bristol/Ravenair/Tayflight ot any of the other excellent smaller commercial FTO's who have no cadets to worry about. You paid your money and made your choice and partly no doubt you thought you were buying a better product because you used the same shop as BA/AL/BM/AIH et al... Well maybe not eh?

I am no OATS lover - I have slagged them in the past and for years people taunted me that I was bitter becuase I could not afford to go there. But I don't think its fair or reasonable to have a major thread running about them going bankrupt. I just do not see it - as I said before I will only think there is a problem when they drop the prices in a bid to generate cashflow. IF that happens then a LOT of other FTO's are going to be in trouble as they will lose customers hand over fist.

Time will tell.

Personally I think the best school is in Jerez but then I am biased :D

Good luck,

WWW

[Gedifroggy]

WWW.
Sorry but Air France is not laying off anybody. They have just stop to recruit and are not replacing retiring people. The cadet scheme is delayed by few months and is slowed down.

[Polar_stereographic]

WWW,

My info is that as with AF, the same applies to BA.

One thing that concerns me about all this is that I get the feeling from some quaters that being big implies a certain degree of security. 'xyz' is part of a multi billion pound company and cannot go under, frankly does not cut the mustard in the current climate. As someone has already mentioned, think ENRON. Worlds fourth largest company?

Business does not give a stuff where or who pays, but rest assured if it does not return a profit in the very near future, it will be closed down. Thats life.

I don't agree with idle speculation, however, I would caution anyone suggesting that any company, specialy ones in the iffy aviation training market at present, cannot close it's doors.

PS

[moggie]

The following companies are/were all big and are/were now in trouble:

SABENA
Enron
British Leyland
BCCI bank
Barings Bank
Pan American Airways

etc.etc.etc.

Being big does not mean you are safe - it may just mean that your organisation is clumsy and slow to react to change or indeed just highly exposed to market forces.

I don't know if OATS are in trouble (but I would be surprised if they are not hurting) but it is a pretty fair bet that the real estate ax Kidlington is worth more than the business OPATS can bring in.

I hope they do not go down (I don't expect they will) - but it is not impossible. I do, however, expect them to suffer for a while as we all are doing at present.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, upon checking I find that Air France are not making any redundancies. Which is odd as they are loosing 17 aircraft but then I suppose things are different in the rigid union ridden socialst nightmare that is the French employment sector.

BA are sacking 12.5% of their workforce. KLM are loosing thousands of staff, Aer Lingus looking for 6000 redundancies. So use those big three instead.

I fail to see exactly what this thread is saying now. It is mostly idle speculation against OATS. For that reason I am closing it.

And don't anybody accuse ME of all people of being an OATS lover!

WWW