Lack of airfields

[sharpend]

Have you noticed a large increase in military aircraft (mainly Helos) using small civilian airfields for fuel top up. Obviously due to the fact that we have just a handful of military airfields now in existence. Of course closing airfields saves HMG shed loads of loot, but I bet the cilvil servants did not take into account the commercial cost of using civil airfields. On Friday I was flying from Staverton and had to hold off whilst an Atlas made an approach. I know how much the MOD was charged for that approach; rather a lot! I suppose with all our assets in one basket, heavy AT from Brize will have to seek approaches elsewhere. When I instructed on VC10s we sometimes popped over to Lyneham for circuits. Now, not only is Lyneham closed, but all its Hercs are at Brize. Still, the increased trade for civil airfields is welcome news for their accounts, but it sure screws up the puddle-jump chaps. And just you try to do circuits at EGVN if you are a puddle-jumper!

[floating_rock]

Alas even those in existence still often can't be as flexible as required to provide fuel \ services as required, particularly when operating at night or weekends. Almost invariably this is not through mil airfield's want of trying.

Limited resources show their hand frequently whether it be airfield opening hours (ATC capacity), VAS availability etc. One exception to a helpful approach, however, is my personal favourite "we only refuel the reds".

On the plus side, many civvi places are keen to offer up a bacon sandwich to the crew, so it isn't all bad news!

[MPN11]

Ah, the happy days of MEDAs :)

[Background Noise]

I'm sure you are right about the additional cost of using civilian airfields not being accounted for when costing base closures, even if it is cheaper than keeping unnecessary bases open. And of course, there is good reason for training at civilian bases, both for airborne and ground procedures, especially for the truckie fleet, even when mil bases are available.

But it is even more ridiculous than that. How many times did we have to go to a civvy airfield because the military one would not accept - either because they were too 'full', or the groundcrew were not qualified. So you go to a civvy airfield where there are no groundcrew at all.

We used to park visiting army helos on the grass outside the sqn building because VASF would not accept them on the line. And how about them having to land outside the fence when the airfield is closed! Hmm - a farmer's field or a large piece of military land, let's risk assess that.

[MPN11]

I confess to having been involved in staffing the closure of MEDAs, and voting 'Yes' ... simply on the 'emergency' aspect being generally adequately covered by civil airfields.

The cost of operating a MEDA was significant in personnel terms. It required, back then, 5.25 ATCOs per position to provide H24 cover ... and a MEDA would require 2 positions [one Local and one Approach]. That's effectively 10 ATCOs to be paid for, even before you start on Assistants and the Ops and Engineering side. On normal day/evening shifts, you would need about 3 [=6].

And what did those MEDA staff do on their night shifts? Absolutely nothing. The out-of-hours use of MEDAs was microscopic.

[chevvron]

And they can't decide whether or not to close Woodvale.

[langleybaston]

I confess to having been involved in staffing the closure of MEDAs, and voting 'Yes' ... simply on the 'emergency' aspect being generally adequately covered by civil airfields.

The cost of operating a MEDA was significant in personnel terms. It required, back then, 5.25 ATCOs per position to provide H24 cover ... and a MEDA would require 2 positions [one Local and one Approach]. That's effectively 10 ATCOs to be paid for, even before you start on Assistants and the Ops and Engineering side. On normal day/evening shifts, you would need about 3 [=6].

And what did those MEDA staff do on their night shifts? Absolutely nothing. The out-of-hours use of MEDAs was microscopic..

And of course in those days the MEDAS were all 7/24 single Met Observer cover at 5.6 per position. And this "paid for" by MoD in a roundabout way. At least the observations were 7/24 for network reasons. Lots of mushrooms picked and fried, though.

[Martin the Martian]

These days Newquay (the airport formerly known as RAF St. Mawgan) is practically a satellite of Brize Norton, with the amount of circuit bashing that goes on there by the Hercules and Atlas squadrons.

Which is nice to see.:)

[zetec2]

St Mawgan, didn't we used to have an RAF base there some years ago ?.

[chevvron]

St Mawgan, didn't we used to have an RAF base there some years ago ?.

Nah you're thinking of Trebelzue.

[RAFEngO74to09]

RAF St Mawgan still exists as a support unit primarily parenting the Defence Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Extraction Training Organization.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafstmawgan/aboutus/defenceseretraining.cfm


42 Sqn and 236 OCU [Nimrod MR2] moved to RAF Kinloss in 1992 (just after new Line accommodation had been built !).

The HQ STC (as was) Operational Training Branch's Deployed Operating Base (DOB) Training Facility / NATO TACEVAL DOB was moved to RAF Fairford end-2005 (disbanded in that form subsequently sometime after 2009).

1 Sqn RAF Regt moved to RAF Honington, 2625 RAuxAF Regt Sqn disbanded, and SAR helicopter maintenance ceased in 2006.

SAR Wg HQ and 203(R) Sqn [Sea King] relocated to RAF Valley in 2008.

US Joint Maritime Facility disbanded 2009 [role relocated to USA].

Control of airfield activities transferred to Newquay (International !!) Airport December 2008. Since renamed Cornwall Airport Newquay !

https://www.cornwallairportnewquay.com/

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Sharpend, Agree with you - an almost inevitable situation given that Wattisham is the most northerly military helicopter base in Britain...with that crown set to pass to Benson if current rumours come to pass!

The demise of the SAR Force certainly limited the options for the remaining mil RW units - some of the SAR Flts were very useful outposts of Avtur, delivered rotors-running if needed, in relatively remote areas. Boulmer had a steady stream of passing helicopters of every type, and I suspect Chiv was much the same; even somewhere like Leconfield could be useful because the other nearby mil airfields were mostly FW, and let's face it, both plankies and their ATC are terrified of helicopters!

[Wycombe]

These days Newquay (the airport formerly known as RAF St. Mawgan) is practically a satellite of Brize Norton

....and a C17 observed in the circuit at Exeter whilst passing a few weeks ago.

At my local-ist airfield, Blackbushe, there have been some fairly regular recent (refuelling, I think) stops by Irish Air Corps helo's, when Odiham (which you would think more suitable) is a stone's throw away.

[Heathrow Harry]

the 'Bushe has a better cafe .................. and you get a chance to mix with potential future employers................

[JAVELINBOY]

Remember the old days when RRE Pershore was open all sorts of passing trade used it for approaches and rollers, Gnats, JP's in between Pershore's own fleet of Canberra's, Viscount, Hastings and project aircraft which included a Nimrod and a Gannet. Don't get me started on St Mawgan, ideal place for a Maritime fleet servicing the Atlantic

[HaveQuick2]

Sharpend, Agree with you - an almost inevitable situation given that Wattisham is the most northerly military helicopter base in Britain...with that crown set to pass to Benson if current rumours come to pass!



Apart from Valley, Shawbury, Lakenheath.....

[ChocksAwayChaps]

Call me old fashioned, but should all this info about current military locations be in the public domain?? Thinking in particular of RAFEng07409 post...

[ORAC]

It’s pretty hard to hide an airfield and the aircraft flying in and out - and all unit closures and moves are widely debated in the local communit6 and press for months before.

[Martin the Martian]

But it already is in the public domain. Not just local press, but spotters' groups, stations' own websites, Wikipedia, aviation press, etc. You can follow a lot of military aircraft on many of the commercial flight tracking sites as well as see which areas of military airfields house which squadrons on Google Earth. There are publications out there that will give you the location and parent unit of every UK military aircraft by serial number, when they moved from one unit to another, when they reissued following servicing, and so on. Much of it is a matter of public record in any case, and groups such as Air-Britain have never been known to feel the rhetorical hand of security on their shoulder. I suspect the info in RafEngO's post took a few minutes of surfing to compile.

And just to correct RafEngO, Newquay was originally branded as Newquay Cornwall Airport before its bizarre name change to Cornwall Airport Newquay. It never used 'International' as part of its name.

[Heathrow Harry]

and a lot of the information is blasted out by the PR wallahs in the RAF................

[ericferret]

Humberside sees quite a bit of military trade and they are prepared to hot refuel helicopters unlike some civy fields.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Apart from Valley, Shawbury, Lakenheath.....

Lakenheath - next door to Wattisham (more or less) so not much use in terms of the whole country.

Valley and Shawbury? No military helicopters at either!

[ricardian]

St Mawgan, didn't we used to have an RAF base there some years ago ?.

No, you're thinking of St Eval (http://www.abct.org.uk/airfields/airfield-finder/st-eval/)

[Cyberhacker]

At my local-ist airfield, Blackbushe, there have been some fairly regular recent (refuelling, I think) stops by Irish Air Corps helo's, when Odiham (which you would think more suitable) is a stone's throw away.

Likewise, the Red Arrows make (fairly) regular refuelling and stop-over visits into Farnborough... when one would think that Odiham would make more sense - unless Odiham can't take Hawks any more?

[Dougie M]

As a reminder of how many airfields we used to have in Cornwall, there is a Kipper Fleet story of a Shack transmitting abeam downwind at St Eval, finals at St Merryn and landed at St Mawgan. Allegedly.

[Martin the Martian]

There was also the West German Noratlas pilot who was flying to St. Mawgan, lined up for a perfect approach to (disused) Portreath, and was shepherded onto the correct airfield by St. Mawgan's GCA controller.

So the story goes, on being asked if he had been to St. Mawgan before, the pilot reportedly said, "Ja, ja, but you vere shooting at me last time!"

[airpolice]

Sharpend, Agree with you - an almost inevitable situation given that Wattisham is the most northerly military helicopter base in Britain...with that crown set to pass to Benson if current rumours come to pass!


Shawbury & Valley no longer operating rotary wing stuff?

[ORAC]

Not military, owned and operated by Airbus and Ascent respectively I believe?

[chevvron]

Humberside sees quite a bit of military trade and they are prepared to hot refuel helicopters unlike some civy fields.

Yeah but most 'civvy fields' don't have the intensity of North Sea helicopter traffic that Humberside does and thus aren't approved by the CAA for hot or rotors running re-fuels.

[ExAscoteer]

As a reminder of how many airfields we used to have in Cornwall, there is a Kipper Fleet story of a Shack transmitting abeam downwind at St Eval, finals at St Merryn and landed at St Mawgan. Allegedly.


He'd have had to be flying in circles then!

[Dougie M]

Ex
I'm sure you are acquainted with the "Square Search"

[condor17]

Staverton , a few weeks ago ... 2 flts of Grobs on navexs from 2 RAF stations. Not enough bases to make x-coutries viable .
Here in Wessex , Pumas , Apaches , Squirrels , Wildcats [ green and blue ] , Blue Dauphin , passing Grob or two . All seem to like our grass strip on an hill . Maybe it's the lunches or the 'gurls'
Last week of C130ks , we had one low pass East to West , wet , gloomy we'd packed up ...... Lights on , wipers slapping time , wings waving , loady doing a star jump in side door . End of the rwy , pushed over and disappeared down into the Vale .

rgds condor .

[MPN11]

me thanks condor for description concise of events.

[NutLoose]

East Mids still gets some but not as much as when Afghan was at its peak, still get the Saudi Hercs transiting through though ( on the States run I believe.)

[chevvron]

Likewise, the Red Arrows make (fairly) regular refuelling and stop-over visits into Farnborough... when one would think that Odiham would make more sense - unless Odiham can't take Hawks any more?

Farnborough has a luxurious Terminal building with private briefing/conference rooms available, plus they're open every weekend whereas Odiham would have to open specially. (Wonder who pays the bill)
(Elton John was due to depart one evening and the FBO told us his party had virtually wrecked their allocated room!)

[Wander00]

Condor - I assume the Wessex airfield is the one on top of the hill with the stunning view to the south

[Green Flash]

Military airfield, no home based aircraft, ATC, Fire, fuel, MATZ all to yourself, can practise over land or sea, Mess, loads of local golf courses - ISK, anyone? :ok: Yes, yes, I know, I know ..... (sigh) .....

[ORAC]

Would be inundated by claims for compensation from all the haggis farmers for the noise causing them to fall over and tumble down the hillsides....

[ShotOne]

Sad to say but as a proportion of the number of aircraft, we probably have more airfields now than we've ever had! In terms of landaway navexes, surely exposure to otherwise unfamiliar civil procedures is a big positive?

[Fareastdriver]

when one would think that Odiham would make more sense

The last jet fighter that I saw take off from Odiham went through the same gap in the hedge that had been carved out by innumerable predecessors.

[condor17]

Wander , with tongue in cheek Sir . Hope you wern't a navigator , 'cos there's a large Beech wood to the South . Stunning views to the North 'tho .
ShotOne , I'm not an expert . For Elementary training , would it not be better to learn Mil. procedures on Navexes B4 graduating to civil ?

rgds condor.

[condor17]

MPN , was it you onboard the K ?

rgds condor .

[MPN11]

MPN , was it you onboard the K ?

rgds condor .The likelihood of a 73-yo expat being on board an RAF aircraft over the UK is incredibly small. Or, "No". :confused:

[Wander00]

Condor - how right you are - comes of writing sitting in the grenier floor of an old farmhouse in France - still a stunning view though

[The Helpful Stacker]

Apart from Valley, Shawbury, Lakenheath.....

And (for rotary folks) if it's just a stop for fuel and a brew... Stafford.

There have been 24/7 refuel facilities available at Stafford for knocking on 3 decades now.