Flying boats

[Bergerie1]

I came across this on Youtube showing Imperial Airways, QANTAS, BOAC, RAAF and RAF flying boats before, during and after WW2. I am sure many Prooners will enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_InRDPcaxDo

[treadigraph]

Cheers Bergerie, I shall watch that this evening.

Oddly enough I don't think I've ever seen a flying boat/floatplane land or take off on water, but I have flown off water in one of Jack Brown's Cubs!

[Kiltrash]

Given that float planes are not the norm may I suggest Vancouver Harbour
When we were there I counted 18 different ones
We did the milk run where they go multi stop up the valley to the settlements and return
Twas not cheap but a great way to spend a day

[treadigraph]

On the "to do" list!

Was at Chalk's base at Watson Island about 30 years ago, saw a Mallard taxy in but not actually land or depart.

[renfrew]

Yes,I managed to get a ride on a Mallard to Bimini and back.
December 1972-a long time ago!

And Loch Lomond Seaplanes still offer flights in Scotland.

[TCU]

Thanks for the link.

Kiltrash, agree. For me it was the wonderful Kenmore Air at Lake Union in Seattle

One gets to combine a flight in a de Havilland (DHC-3 for me) and a float plane. Bettered as a passenger flight experience only by a ride in certain BAC Type 102.

[Warmtoast]

Some posts here on PPrune when I was very familiar with RAF Sunderlands way back in the late 1950's:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii-332.html#post8808923
(post #6632)

[chevvron]

Cheers Bergerie, I shall watch that this evening.

Oddly enough I don't think I've ever seen a flying boat/floatplane land or take off on water, but I have flown off water in one of Jack Brown's Cubs!

Saw many flying boats during boat trips from Portsmouth on Southampton Water in the '50s, but never saw one takeoff or land.

[The Member]

Bergerie1

Thanks for the HEADS UP on film on Flying Boats

I found it most enjoyable :D

[Gibair]

Picture on my office wall.

[Fareastdriver]

Saw many flying boats during boat trips from Portsmouth on Southampton Water in the '50s

The Saro Princess flying boats were cocooned at Calshot during the fifties.

[Wander00]

Given the recent death of Ted Hawkins (2 DFCs in Catalinas and CO of a Sunderland squadron), a fairly appropriate new thread

[TURIN]

Once they get the repairs done, this is on my 'To Do' list.

Dutch Catalina-PBY (https://catalina-pby.nl/en/)

[chevvron]

The Saro Princess flying boats were cocooned at Calshot during the fifties.

Yes they were there too, but further up near Hythe, there were several Solents/Sandringhams moored and I can remember a visit in about '56 where we saw an American boat (Pan Am?) moored near the Queen Elizabeth in Southampton Docks.

[QuePee]

Once they get the repairs done, this is on my 'To Do' list.

Dutch Catalina-PBY (https://catalina-pby.nl/en/)

I did it with my son ans son-in-law the week before its ill fated landing at Lelystad on two legs instead of three. A fantastic experience and one never to be forgotten. I would certainly recommend it.

QP

[ICT_SLB]

A quick search on Canadair CL215, CL215T or CL415 will bring up many videos of current flying boat operations.

[Wander00]

OK, so where did the Catalina get such phenomenal endurance - eg Ted Hawkins' 15 mins short of 25 hours Sullom Voe to Spitsbergen and back. Don't think the Sunderland could have done that

[mcdhu]

A propos of nothing except the Catalina, I recall landing in Mauritius in the early 70s; the captain smiled and said “I was stationed here flying Catalinas during the war.” He has a smile on his face!! I think he had a good war!
mcdhu

[chevvron]

OK, so where did the Catalina get such phenomenal endurance - eg Ted Hawkins' 15 mins short of 25 hours Sullom Coe to Spitsbergen and back. Don't think the Sunderland could have done that
During the war, Catalinas did a regular run between Ceylon and Oz which was over 24 hours each way.
I remember before I started working at Farnborough, one of the items on the display programme one year was a Shack Mk3 which would take off at the end of one day's display to go out on patrol and land at the beginning of the next day's display.
[Er do you mean Sullom Voe in the Shetlands?]

[Wander00]

Chev - see amendment. Thank you

[tornadoken]

#17/19: Catalina endurance. B.Pattison&G.Goodall, Qantas Indian O. Service 1943-46, AHS/Oz,1979. 5 a/c, 217 crossings Swan R - Koggala Lake vv. Payload upto 1,100 lb., average duration 27 hr., min. 22.46, max. 29.10hr. Overload t/o up to 4 tons - "tight" off Koggala. QEA engine opnl.plan had notional max endurance of 36 hr.

Farnborough Show Shacks had no payload.

[Wander00]

But how did the Cat achieve such endurance, or was it all fuel and damn all else. I believe I am correct in saying it had no galley, so that saved a bit of weight

[Jhieminga]

A relatively light airframe (for a flying boat), ie no flaps, fabric covered trailing edges. Engines are similar to the DC-3 family, again not that heavy or powerful for the size of airplane but that won’t be a problem with miles of (wet) runway. The lower powered engines means a relatively low fuel consumption. Combine all this with a big wing to store loads of fuel and away you go. I’ll happily look up some numbers but that will have to wait till I get home to my books.

Catalina (PBY-5A):
- Empty weight 20,910 lbs / max TO weight 35,420 lbs
- Fuel capacity 1495 US gallons with self sealing tanks, 1750 US gallons without self sealing liner.
- Cruise speed 125 mph
- Range 2520 mi

DC-3A:
- Empty weight 16,865 lbs / max TO weight 25,199 lbs
- Fuel capacity 822 US gallons
- Cruise speed 207 mph
- Range 1500 mi

You can see from these figures that with the same engines, the PBY is somewhat heavier (but this is for the amphibious version, the PBY-4 weighed in at 24,813 lbs gross and the earlier ones were less than that) but even with the self-sealing tanks has almost double the fuel capacity. If you take an earlier non-amphibious PBY you've got 10,000 lbs less weight to carry but if you use the non-self-sealing tanks you've got 1750 US gallons of fuel on board. That will go a long way if you use it conservatively. The PBY-5A range and cruise speed gives you an endurance of over 20 hours, but I don't know if that includes reserves or leads to empty tanks. Roscoe Creed's 'PBY The Catalina Flying Boat' quotes a patrol range of 2860 miles for a non-amphibious PBY-5 and I assume that this includes reserves and is based on a normal cruising power setting, not a long range power setting.

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/TEAL%20Solent%20Flying-Boats/19500504_WA-24658-G_zpssrvxjlzy.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/22878254)

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/Flying%20Boats%20Auckland/19370300_WA-03446-G_zpsegls16i5.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/30646961)


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/Flying%20Boats%20Auckland/19371228_1-4-048844-G_zpsqwyvtszs.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/22847217)


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/Flying%20Boats%20Auckland/19371228_WA-11004-G_zpsnsd0nvz6.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/22801292)


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/Flying%20Boats%20Auckland/19371228_WA-11008-G_zpstv2k11xa.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23161320)


http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/Flying%20Boats%20Auckland/19371228_WA-11005-G_zpsd9yvd9zi.jpg~original (http://natlib.govt.nz/records/23186138)

[oldpax]

I did ground handling on a Norwegian Catalina at RAF Ballykelly (1960?),that's the only flying boat I have seen !!I see the Catalina at Cosford museum is painted in Norwegian air force colours now.

[dduxbury310]

The Catalina could be fitted with ferry tanks in the cabin, four long metal cylinders mounted in a wooden cradle (combined capacity, of "about 325 Imperial gallons"), in a position directly below the centre of gravity, and as merely ferry tanks, had no self sealing protection. It was these tanks which allowed the very long endurance of over 24 hours, as the wing tanks could never hold enough for such endurance. The fuselage ferry tanks required that they be opened in flight, then a suction transfer pipe powered by an electric fuel pump was plunged through the opening and the pump started on its task, forcing the fuel "upstairs" into the wing tanks. These ferry tanks were also used by RAF Cats during the search for the Bismarck in May 1941, despite their lack of protection, such was the importance of the operation. Later Catalinas also had provision for underwing drop tanks, but these were very rarely used, and normally only for ferrying - however these would have been a lot safer than the earlier cabin tanks. To give a more detailed account of the operation of the cabin tanks, the following is extracted from the Pilot's and Flight Engineer's Notes for the Catalina I, IB, II, IV, IVA and IVB flying boats (AP-2036A, B, D, E & F -PN), Paragraph 1, Fuel and Oil Systems. "An electrically driven pump is mounted on top of the upper tank (except on Mk. IV, see para. 93) to which current is supplied via a flexible lead from a socket marked RECEPT AFT on the starboard aft face of bulkhead No. 4. The pump is fitted with a flexible suction hose terminating in a length of rigid pipe which can be inserted into any one of the (ferry fuel) tanks after unscrewing the blanking plug from the filler cap. The flexible delivery is connected by a union on the port side to an external pipe and fuel is pumped through this into the port wing tank via the drain valve."
The standard wing tanks of Catalinas held about 875 US gallons each side (725 Imperial) to give a total of 1,750 US (1,450 Imperial). In Part II of the Notes (para. 51 (ii), Management of Fuel System - Instructions for the use of auxiliary tanks) it is stated under sub-para. 51:ii(b) "During transfer the wing tank gauge should be watched, and when the required amount of fuel has been transferred the pump should be switched off concurrently with the shutting off of the drain valve. The port wing tank contents can then be equalised with the starboard tank contents by turning both main fuel cocks (43) to BOTH ON. After the pumping operations are finished, the suction pipe stop cock should be closed and care should be taken that any fuel remaining in the suction pipe is not splashed about indiscriminately. Tank caps should be replaced immediately." This last instruction is then followed by a further note of caution, stating: "It should also be remembered that a dangerous concentration of vapour may remain in the aircraft for some considerable time, therefore naked lights should be strictly avoided."
Thus operating these aircraft far out over the Atlantic in May 1941 looking for Germany's most formidable battleship (which was equipped with the most modern A/A radar-controlled armament) took a special kind of nervous courage.
David D

[treadigraph]

Oldpax, the Cosford Cat's still in its Danish AF scheme isn't it?

[Wander00]

Treadi - yes, saw it a few weeks ago. Interesting for me as DiL is Danish and she and my son live in Copenhagen


Jheiminga - many thanks - fascinating


Kiwi - great photos, but what is the three engine bird with all the wires.

[Jhieminga]

Sikorsky S-42: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-42

[oldpax]

Sorry for that !Got my markings mixed up!

[TURIN]

But how did the Cat achieve such endurance, or was it all fuel and damn all else. I believe I am correct in saying it had no galley, so that saved a bit of weight

Looking at some of these photos, the Catalina looks as slippery as an eel in comparison, that must have helped. :ok:

https://cdn.silodrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Consolidated-PBY-Catalina.jpg





QuePee
25th Wedding Anniversary coming up. I wonder what it would take to convince Mrs T to take the Cat? ;)

[BobbyHowie]

I seem to remember Sunderlands off Troon/Barassie shore on the west coast of Scotland when I was a boy in the early 60's - I don't think I was dreaming! Is that possible?

The Loch Lomond Cessna T206H did a touch-and-go during this year's airshow at Ayr. First I've seen. Also had the Catalina displaying again. Very good it was too.

[treadigraph]

French Navy used Sunderlands up until December 1960.

However, given the proximity to Prestwick, possibly US Navy or USAF flying boats - Grumman Albatrosses maybe?

[brakedwell]

My first flight was in a Sunderland from Pembroke Dock in 1953. We were on a two week CCF summer camp and flew almost every day, sometimes for a very long time!
The memories have faded, but noise and seawater dringing off the props during take-off, which seemed to take forever, stick in my mind. The Sunderland was very draughty, particularly near the front turret. Sitting in the rear turret I felt very isolated as we droned over the whitecaps a thousand feet below. Preparing the aircraft for take-off and securing it post flight seemed a very long winded procedure and rather hazardous when the wind got up.
The fry-ups were brilliant though.

[S'land]

I have never had the opportunity to fly in a Flying Boat, so am somewhat green with envy of those who have.

My father flew back from India in an Empire Flying Boat. I remember him telling me about it when I was five or six years old. It sounded so fantastic that it became my favourite aircraft of all time. It was only a few years later that I learnt that the Sunderland was the military version of the Empire boats. It then became my second favourite aircraft.


Since those days a lot of water has passed under the bridge, but these two aircraft are still my first and second favourites. The only other thing that has remained constant from that time is my support of the English rugby union team.

[Herod]

To my mind, the "C" class boats were possibly the best airline flying job ever, with one exception; the HP42.

[Bergerie1]

Herod, I totally agree with you.

[tornadoken]

#33/34: SA-16B Albatrosses, 67th.AirRescue Sqdn, PWK, 10/57 - 2/60.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Thanks Kwithrottlejockey for those superb photographs. Are you able to say where and when they were taken?

[Tawhiri]

Thanks Kwithrottlejockey for those superb photographs. Are you able to say where and when they were taken?

Late December 1937, at Mechanic's Bay, Auckland, New Zealand. The Pan-Am Sikorsky S-42 arrived on December 26th, the Imperial Airways Short S.23 Empire arrived the following day. The Sikorsky S-42 was subsequently lost the following month on 11 January 1938 in a mid-air explosion when returning to Pago Pago in Samoa while dumping fuel following engine problems on its next flight to New Zealand. It had first visited in March 1937 on a survey flight to New Zealand, and held the honour of being the first flying boat to visit New Zealand. The December flight was a commercial flight, carrying mail but no passengers.

[A681001]

great photos Tawhiri, thanks for sharing,
came across this picture which is was same time of s23 centaurus , for those who like a good read there is a great book about c class flying boat "Corsair" by Graham Coster
https://www.flickr.com/photos/27862259@N02/6187728239

(there are also a few more pictures of Centaurus on that flicker page if you arrow forward)

[Tawhiri]

great photos Tawhiri, thanks for sharing

Credit for the photos should go to Kiwithrottlejockey who posted them, not me. :)

The closest I've been to one is crawling through both the Solent and Sunderland at what was then MOTAT's Meola Road facility in the early 80's, although I believe my father managed to snag a ride on an RNZAF Sunderland flight from Wellington to Auckland in the early 1960's.

[Warmtoast]

There's a fascinating thread here on PPRuNe about a trip to the Far East in the Short C (Empire) Class flying boat Caledonia that started from Poole Harbour in May 1940.
Well worth a read.
See here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/48484-rma-caledonia.html

[Kiwithrottlejockey]

Thanks Kwithrottlejockey for those superb photographs. Are you able to say where and when they were taken?




Click on the images (they are hotlinks) and the source and information about the photographs will be revealed.

[A681001]

Credit for the photos should go to Kiwithrottlejockey who posted them, not me. :)

oops, thanks Kiwithrottlejockey

anyway wet cold day here so just trawling around I found this detailed cockpit photo of "Centaurus"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54522149@N02/7512164246/in/photostream/

there are some more photo's over on Trove also of Centaurus in Sydney
Search results for 'centaurus' - Trove (http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=centaurus)

[WHBM]

To my mind, the "C" class boats were possibly the best airline flying job ever
Unfortunately the C class Empire Flying Boats suffered a considerable attrition in their first few years, to the extent that proposed services had to be curtailed. Landing accidents were a major, though not only, cause. The postwar aircraft, not really that different, did not suffer to anything like this extent, so the issue was eventually mastered.

Although exotic for the time, flights regularly seemed to have exceptionally early starts each day, and as the crew were with the aircraft for several consecutive days, they must have been pretty knackered at the end. Here's a 1939 timetable from the UK to Australia run. Crews were slipped at Karachi and Singapore, normally with a Qantas crew on the last leg and sometimes they worked west to Karachi as well.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/iaw39aus/iaw39u-2.jpg

Tiberias, a stop on the Sea of Galilee, is about 820 feet below sea level, and must be about the lowest anyone has ever landed an airliner.

Regarding Catalina endurance, the autobiography of Jack Bamford, Air France's longstanding UK manager from the 1920s through to 1960, "Croissants at Croydon", has a splendid extended description of a flight he took in a Cat during WW2, when in the RAF "for the duration", westward from Prestwick to Halifax NS. That was a 24 hours airborne job as well, with fuel being transferred from ferry tanks at intervals.