31,970 hours of flying experience is perhaps a bit too much.

[Bueno Hombre]

US cargo plane that narrowly avoided Hong Kong mountain was warned of danger three times in two minutes | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2116666/us-cargo-plane-narrowly-avoids-crashing-hong-kong-mountain)

[Pogie]

If he's got 32,000 hours, he's no doubt one of the old farts that refuses to retire. He'll probably try to continue his pathetic run by being a simulator instructor after he can't legally fly anymore. There comes a time when experience doesn't make up for mental degeneration caused by aging.

[Trafalgar]

Yes, correct in your assessment. Both the senile old buggers and the no-nothing spiky haired brigade are equally dangerous. Interestingly, the way CX is going, those will be the only two groups left in this airline. Food for thought? (but Anna knows best)

[Sea Eggs]

If he's got 32,000 hours, he's no doubt one of the old farts that refuses to retire. He'll probably try to continue his pathetic run by being a simulator instructor after he can't legally fly anymore. There comes a time when experience doesn't make up for mental degeneration caused by aging.

The guy started at 18 y.o. Fly 1000 hours a year. He is now 50 years old. Hence 32000 hours. OK?

[BlunderBus]

old or young makes no diff... anyone can make mistakes. The trick is catching them or recognising them before they kill you... if all you got out of this was to denigrate 50 years of staying alive in aircraft then you're obviously feeling invincible.

[Dan Winterland]

Tam said the American cargo plane was flying below the standard vertical distance of 1,000 feet – or 305 metres – from the ground stipulated by the Civil Aviation Department, yet potential punishments for the pilots and the operator would depend on the final result of investigations as well as relevant regulations in the United States.

One has to ask why a legislator is getting involved with the investigation at this stage, and why he is talking about punishment for an error. The investigation process needs to run independent from any regulation or politics until the final report is published. Currently, the CAD investigate accidents and serious incidents, contrary to ICAO Standards and Recognised Practices. There is a clear conflict of interest here as a line o investigation will be the actions of the controllers - their own employees.

They have recently been obliged to set up a fully independent investigation body, but are dragging their heels over it.

[Oval3Holer]

Welcome to the Third World.

[Basil]

Over a 40 year aviation career (after doing other fun things) I appear to have averaged just over 400hrs per annum. 1000hrs pa? Is that legal? This guy must be worn out.

[RodH]

Having many thousands of hours in the air is not necessarily a good guide to a good aviator at all. There are a great many pilots around with half of those huge totals who are far better, safer and competent.
I knew of an old pilot in Australia who wanted to retire with as many hours as possible so he remained on the DC4 freighter to do this. Trouble was he would plug the auto pilot in not long after take off , slide his seat back and go to sleep and tell the F/O to wake him on mid descent . He did this on every flight as most were back of the clock and he literally slept through 75% of his flights.
The huge number of hours were mostly gained whilst asleep so that does not make him a good aviator. If one did not know one would think that with so many hours he must be so experienced and a brilliant pilot.
Hours do not make the man , experience does and especially when flying and being awake.:=

[Sleeve Wing]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it used to be understood that US pilots logged every minute in an aircraft. This included dead-heading, flights going on holiday with the family, private flying and of course commuting to work regularly in their own aeroplane. Soon adds up…….

Me? I’m a mere learner with only 22000+, an’ I’m nearly 80 ! Still enjoying aeros though ! :cool:

[Oval3Holer]

DC4s had autopilots?

[Trafalgar]

Yes they did (rudimentary). Used to fly one in Africa in the 80's. Great airplane, rugged and reliable. Look up the Douglas DC-4 Association of South Africa.

[galaxy flyer]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it used to be understood that US pilots logged every minute in an aircraft. This included dead-heading, flights going on holiday with the family, private flying and of course commuting to work regularly in their own aeroplane. Soon adds up…….

Me? I’m a mere learner with only 22000+, an’ I’m nearly 80 ! Still enjoying aeros though !! :cool:

Not true. Yes, they get paid for dead heading, but no logged time for being a passenger. Private flying for any purpose, yes, logged time. Military flying, yes.

[Oval3Holer]

Thanks, Traf. I will. :-)

[iceman50]

Curtain rod

Careful what you say or CX might end up like another airline where only your seat time is counted for flying hours - goodbye overtime!:rolleyes:

[Trafalgar]

...and goodbye what few pilots are still thinking of staying at CX

[t_cas]

To look at this another way.
Awake or asleep, in the seat or on the toilet. When you are pilot in command the command part (responsibility) does not take a break until you are parked at the other end and stepping off of the aircraft.
Experience is not just about manipulation. It is exposure to risk and the management of said risks. Like any leader, be it the general of an army, a ships captain or the president/prime minister, the job does not stop if you are catching a nap whilst either in office or on a military campaign. Delegating roles and responsibilities is part of being in command. The buck will stop with said commander.
You cannot buy or train experience. It is gathered slowly over many years of exposure to risk.
The automation of aircraft does not address or replace the flexibility of the human influence on achieving safer outcomes when automation reaches the limit of its design.
This is a long winded way of pointing out the systemic shortage in experience levels and the limitations inherent in machines.

[Killaroo]

If I’m on an aircraft
In uniform
On the GD
Listed as operating crew - probably Commander, with Command responsibility
Getting paid (I.e. at WORK)

....then it’s logged time.

Nothing to do with vanity, I don’t need a few dozen extra hours to make my logbook look good.

You’re foolish if you think otherwise.

[t_cas]

It is called Total Aeronautical Experience. Hence why as co-pilot, only a percentage is counted toward TAE. There is only PIC.
Logging time at home pretty much sums up your understanding of the reasoning to which I was alluding.
There is much more to the job of an airline pilot than merely manipulating the stick.
I am not responsible for an aircraft and its occupants safety when home in bed dreaming of life beyond this developing circus of perceptions.

[Dragon69]

One would assume that when one becomes a commander of a wide body ULH aircraft that flying hours become irrelevant. It's year of service that I believe is more pertinent. I doubt anyone is doing it for vanity at that point. Does it really matter if one has 25,000 hours or 15,000 hours?

[Killaroo]

One would assume that when one becomes a commander of a wide body ULH aircraft that flying hours become irrelevant. It's year of service that I believe is more pertinent. I doubt anyone is doing it for vanity at that point. Does it really matter if one has 25,000 hours or 15,000 hours?
Exactly.

CR, I totally get your point. The point some of us here are trying to make is that if we were to all start saying-time in the bunk shouldn't be logged, CX would be very quick to say-good idea, and no need to pay you either then.

Emirates tried it already.
Keep encouraging them.

[RandomPerson8008]

Block time is what counts toward FAA flight/duty time restrictions so of course all block time during which you are on board the aircraft as a required crewmember should be logged, without regard to when or how much break time is taken. FAA also allows the PIC listed on the flight release to log all block time for the flight as PIC - take it up with the FAA if you don't like it. It's relevant since this was a US carrier operating on behalf of CX. Fact is (as we all know) if you're the captain, even on your break you are liable to be called up to the flight deck should a problem arise, I encourage my F/O's to do so even for minor questions. In reality it doesn't really matter unless you're applying for a new job. I wasn't even asked for my logbooks at my current employer; airlines will know what you've been doing based upon where you've been working, logbooks are a formality.

[ACMS]

Stop all this public squabbling over crap.

Pull your heads in.

[shortly2]

Then the rules need to be much more specific on log books in general. But would they be enforceable or does it really matter a jot? So this experienced pilot made a mistake (apparently). Of course we have never made a mistake, all our flights have been flawless. Grow up guys. Of course I mean guys in the completely accepting of all genders or partial genders or those not sure of their genders.

[Sea Eggs]

My friend, John Deakin, retired as a JAL 747 captain in 1999 at 60 y.o. I think he had >32,000 hours at that point.

https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182090-1.html

https://www.advancedpilot.com/staff.html

[Shep69]

The only hour that is really important is the one that’s in front of you.

As far as esoterics and getting down in the weeds, we log time (I think everyone does) while watching and managing an autopilot which is doing its thing. While there is skill and training involved, it’s still the thing doing most of the flying. So any other point is moot — it’s just a matter of following whatever rules there are toward what time you are allowed to log. Watching air go by isn’t the same as actually flying the jet but making such a distinction in practice is hard to do and — like seniority — there isn’t much of a way to figure out how to do it better. Pay scales really have nothing to do with any of it and are their own animal altogether. So that’s that.

[Oldaircrew]

Curtain rod,

Like many people you incorrectly apply the concept of flying hours.

It is about RESPONSIBILITY, not actual time in the seat! Whoever has responsibility logs the hours. It doesn't matter if you are fast asleep at the time; if you are responsible, you are the commander. Whilst you are asleep, you are in charge, therefore you are responsible. That's why we get paid the money. Not to fly from A to B but to be responsible for flying from A to B.

The managers have denigrated us to a point where most pilots feel their job is to fly from A to B. They are WRONG!!! We are there to be responsible!

mol does not get paid for running Ryanair. Timmy Clark does not get paid to run EK. They are paid for bearing the responsibility of running said Airlines. We are the same.

It is time we realised what we are here for and why we are being paid. Until then, we are slaves to the system.

[arketip]

mol does not get paid for running Ryanair. Timmy Clark does not get paid to run EK. They are paid for bearing the responsibility of running said Airlines. We are the same.

Then they can log the whole fleet hours on their logbook. They must have a lot of hours of flying experience and in a lot of types.;)

[filejw]

When my company had 2 Captains on a over 12 hr flight they showed the flight time split between Captains.Fast forward to a new labor agreement with 1 Captain and 3 FO's on the same flight and they then credited the Captain for the full flight.

[Judd]

but those who actually log bunk time as PIC flying time should be embarrassed


Just as bad are those pilots who log all their time on autopilot as instrument flight time. Yet watch them in a simulator trying to hand fly on raw data and you really wonder how they get through an instrument rating. :eek:

[RandomPerson8008]

A lot of things about aviation are absurd. Why does this matter, why do you care, aside from trying to prove that the military way of doing things is better. Really, who cares?

[Killaroo]

Does O’Leary have a pilots licence?
No?
Then why does he need a logbook?

[Dragon69]

It's a pet peeve, because it is so embarrassing to be surrounded by people who need to inflate their egos with such things.

...and I am once again amazed by the pettiness, narcisism and thin skin of those around me.

OK, back to ARAPA now...

Have you by any chance looked at yourself in the mirror at all?

[Oldaircrew]

Curtain,

I took your suggestion and relooked at my post as well as the rest of the thread. The old adage of not reading pprune after a long brunch was brought back to me.

Whilst my post was totally out of context in this thread, I do believe that the basics of what I wrote are true. We are deemed responsible and accountable for what happens on the aircraft and should be rewarded commensurately. We are also undervalued by our management, who have taken every opportunity we have given them to belittle and demean us as a group. I am sure that many, if not most, CX crew feel the sameway.