Quitting before IOT

[aevu]

Good evening everyone,

I realise there is a similar post on this issue, however there doesn't seem to have been anything on this for several years so I am interested to see how circumstances might have changed.

In a few months I am due to start IOT as a pilot. I was in a UAS and have a very good degree. However I have always had doubts about whether the RAF would be right for me, and these have come to the forefront now that training is imminent. I would therefore appreciate an opinion on these issues from those of you who are/have recently been in the RAF as a pilot. I am not asking you to make up my mind for me, rather I would like to check if the assumptions I'm basing my judgements on are correct.

First, I am concerned that I simply wouldn't fit in with my colleagues. The assumption this is based on is that every evening on an isolated base the only activity is drinking in the bar. From my experience, it is frowned upon to want to do one's own thing or not to be involved in this forced group bonding, even if you would want to cultivate friendships with just a few people. This is probably not the right attitude for the military, so I wouldn't get very far. Is this reasonable thinking?

Second, the bases are depressing, isolated and you could end up working in unfavourable parts of the country. This is exacerbated by lack of funding which means facilities are closing or are in a poor state of repair. Fair enough, we are meant to be military and put up with it because we fight on and do what we're told. However, faced with a lifestyle which appears to be a downgrade from university, a graduate in a competitive market is perfectly entitled to reject the military and live/work elsewhere. I therefore don't see how I could put up with this aspect of the lifestyle, unless the flying substantially made up for it. As I only have limited exposure: are the bases really that bad and wouldn't you rather work in a pleasant town/city?

The deciding factor is whether the flying makes it all worth it. But this is also in doubt. I know people who are on 1+ year holds between IOT and EFT. It could take over 5 years to become operational. Even then, you might only fly 15-20 hours a month. The rest of the time I assume you are drowned by the elastic burden of "admin" which fills any free time in the RAF? Could I also ask if any of the flying ever gets mundane - especially for multis as that is the stream I would prefer?

Thank you for reading this post and I apologise for the negative tone. I just want to make sure I'm not being to critical with my perceived disadvantages of joining. I have read a lot of complaints about the RAF going downhill in other posts on this forum, whereas positive posts seem place tenuous emphasis on abstract ideals. I just need to make an informed decision.

[Stuff]

Are you sure you were on a UAS?

Did you not attend any Summer/Easter camps, if so, didn't you speak to the livers-in?

A very strange post...

[muppetofthenorth]

Are you sure you were on a UAS?

Did you not attend any Summer/Easter camps, if so, didn't you speak to the livers-in?

A very strange post...

Depends on the UAS in question. If OP was MASUAS or LUAS then they were Woodvale based - what livers-in are there to talk to?

But still, they should have had 2+ years to research and get used to the idea before starting the application. Getting through the hoops is no mean thing...


OP, don't judge a career on IOT. Yes, mess life takes precedent at first, but it doesn't last forever. These days the gym is probably as much of a pull as the bar is... And it's the one place where you're guaranteed decent equipment.

[Pontius Navigator]

Your view is quite frightening and with that view you are right to have doubts. Your first big shock, and as a graduate all the more so, will be IOT. Few wash out here but I am not sure you would make it. I have a nephew at Dartmouth ex-Newcastle, he does everything with a big grin on his face.

Now, drinking culture. True it happens but not as in days of yore. On operations or even routine flying the work pace limits your drinking. Heavy drinking and high tech don't mix.

I can't comment on holds, but they do present opportunities.

Now your 15-20 hours per month suggests fast jets. You may get something else. But even 15 hours a month can be 10-15 trips and one hour of flying takes many more hours preparation and debriefing. Admin happens but don't forget QRA standby, simulator sessions, operational study etc, even gym work (shock horror).

Then there are many other diversions available that demand your active choice - scuba expeditions (daughter and son in law done that), sailing, climbing, war walks, university short courses. The only limit is operational tempo and your initiative.

Disadvantages are history, positives are the future.

Multies mundane. Possibly but don't imagine a high flying civilian job won't become mundane.

Finally, unfavourable parts of the country; not many bases left so define unfavourable? Multies Wiltshire or Lincolnshire, maybe Scotland but less likely. FJ, Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Scotland.

Really it is up to you. If you think uniformity and discipline are not your things then you are right to have doubts.

[MPN11]

The word not used so far is "Comradeship", an intangible concept but certainly stronger in the RAF than in civvy street.

[Wander00]

Youngest W from an early age had his heart set on Sandhurst. Offered a scholarship to Welbeck but refused as he wanted to be a Gunner (must have been a terrible parent)Even binned A Levels in favour of Public Serviced Uniformed National Diploma. However, as part of that he had to be in the ACF. Loved that too, but realised that there were aspects he could not deliver on, so changed the plan, and with help of Army Careers came up with an alternative career path, and won a scholarship to UK Sailing Academy. Point is, people come to decide what is right for them by different paths. Hope OP finds the right one for him/her

[NutLoose]

I would say everyone has some doubts, no doubt you had some initially when leaving for Uni but ended up loving it, I probably had doubts too about the RAF and initial training but they were soon dispelled and I ended up loving my career.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Although at first glance this appears to be a strange post, I think it shows a degree of foresight and courage to ask those questions in the "lions Den" of PPRUNE. With the wealth of experience on here then it is fair to say that some of our experiences can help someone on that first rung.

OP: As you have an IOT date then you will have been through many interviews, tests and visits. How did you feel when you left these? Were you elated to find out you had passed?

You have a degree but what in what subject? Was the degree a fall-back just in case you didn't get in as pilot or was it a degree to tick a box? You mention it taking years to reach front-line, well it takes 7 years to train as a dentist or vet and at the end you are either staring down gaping mouths or up sheep's backsides! What are your career prospects if you do change tack now?

Life on the UAS: Unsure as to which UAS but from what I saw they all had a good time and bonded well. You will make lifetime friends and they will support you through the hard times in the same way you will support them.

Isolated bases: Going back a few years but it was always the isolated bases that had the best out-of-work life. Most people hung around at weekends and the social life was excellent. I see you are in the South West but I am not sure where. Are there family / partner ties that are making you question life in the grim North East?

IOT: I didn't do IOT but went through the far tougher course at Dartmouth ( :-) ). There were times when I and my course mates questioned why the hell we were doing it but just knuckled down and got on with it; in reality it is only a small part of the whole picture and is designed to make you question what you are doing but there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it all sort of clicks into place once you break free.

I wasn't a pilot but had 16 very happy years in the RN and RAF. My son is a pilot; 22 years old and hooning around in a fast-jet (the envy of all his non-military mates and his extremely proud dad). He has had hold-over postings and enjoyed every minute of them, making very good friends along the way. Some of whom are very senior officers who were more than happy to give him sound advice and guidance along the way.

For you time is short I guess before IOT. Reading between the lines of your post I think you have already made up your mind not to go and are looking for support to justify your decision. A shame really as you have already achieved a lot that others can only dream of and, from personal experience, you may regret not giving it a go.

Good luck whichever way you go.

[pettinger93]

Dartmouth was the making of my son. Dropped out of uni, no ambition, but to everyones surprise joined the RN as midshipmen. In 6 months it turned him into a fully rounded grown up officer. Now navigating a submarine. But you have to love the challenge.

[BEagle]

aevu, your post was well written with a level of erudition rarely noted on PPRuNe these days.

Many of your concerns are entirely justified; decaying infrastructure as a result of the lack of adequate funding being just one. Location of ME bases isn't too bad - also the RAF now has an AT/AAR fleet consisting almost entirely of modern types. Mostly located at Brize Norton - which for the benefit of certain aged navigators is in Oxfordshire, not Wiltshire. Not a bad part of the world bordering the Cotswolds, but expensive. Waddington is pretty good too. Flying from either beats the heck out of commuting to some dismal office in a city, no matter how you dress that up. Every time I have to attend meetings in London I wonder how anyone can tolerate the misery of rail commuting.

You won't be obliged to spend the whole evening in a mess bar; however, unwinding from an IOT day with the rest of your course wouldn't be unusual. You will be part of a team for sure, but that doesn't mean that you cannot pursue individual interests as well.

Anyway, you've done well to get as far as you have. But at the end of the day the decision is yours and yours alone.

[just another jocky]

Tend to agree with Beags and SWB above regarding your post. Difficult for you to get an answer for you when we're all so different. There are many jaundiced views of both the RAF and military service in general on here, but for me, I've had 35 years service so far, the vast majority of them flying fast jets & now teaching and I don't regret my choice of careers one iota. I've see and done things most others can only dream of doing and work/worked with and met some outstanding individuals.


My view would be; how can you possibly NOT want to be a military pilot? But that's just my view.

[charliegolf]

I always like the advice line, "Don't look back and regret what you did, regret what you didn't do". IOT- what have you got to lose? Many of the anxieties you've expressed may either be allayed or cemented in that year and, in my view, whatever you'd decide to do at the end of it, you'd be the better man for it.

Don't be the, "I could have been a fighter pilot, but I couldn't be arsed" bloke in the bar!

CG

[Mr. Vice]

I am going to say what many people are probably thinking here.

If you are considering that the chance to go to work every single day and fly a Typhoon from low level, right up to flight level nosebleed supersonic, night and day all over the world as potentially not for you then I would like some of whatever you are smoking. The opportunity to fly the F35 off of a deck or the chance to live in any number of countries around the world as part of exchanges tours is incredible.

Yes there will be hard times, yes you will deal with non-flying related crap. But who said it was easy? The payback will be flying on Operations, being part of huge international exercises and going away on incredible adventurous training.

A lot of people will say my view is somewhat out of touch with the modern Armed Forces but the fact remains that the journey is what you make it and I would argue that a performance takeoff in a Typhoon probably makes up for the trivial jobs that need doing.


Despite all of this your post stinks of somebody that doesn't really want it enough, probably doesn't have the minerals and quite frankly doesn't fancy the challenge. I am sure a number of people reading this will also consider you somewhat selfish for wasting a pilot slot on IOT if you really do pull the plug.

Enjoy slaving away behind a desk for 40 years wondering what you could have achieved. At least you can tell your co-workers that you didn't have to endure a posting to North Scotland, before sitting on a 1hr tube commute home only to rinse and repeat until retirement.

Read your post out loud and listen to yourself.


Get a grip.

Cheers,


Mr. Vice

[aevu]

Wow, thank you all for the numerous and quick replies. They have provided a lot to think about and I will now go through and address some of the open questions.

But still, they should have had 2+ years to research and get used to the idea before starting the application. Getting through the hoops is no mean thing...
True, I have done a lot of research and spoken to many people about this. But I during this time I was also at university and I was still in the process of getting through all the hoops. I graduated, and at some point along the way I had also jumped through all these hoops to be selected, and now with the future ahead of me and an offer in hand I am evaluating whether it's actually for me.

SWP, the questions you asked give an insightful answer. I did feel happy when I passed, but perhaps not to the extent that some people who had made it their one and only goal in life might have. Similarly, I went to university because I am interested in the subject (natural sciences), and because this could lead to a range of careers, one of which might be some form of flying. Joining the UAS then put the RAF option on the table. If I do change tack now, and I'm not trying to be arrogant, I think there is a lot I could do. What I would probably do instead is start a PhD (very different, I know).

Regarding isolated bases, my aversion, I think, stems from being cut off from the outside world, or the nice bits of it at least! I believe living in a pleasant area could have a real effect on happiness in life. For some reason, neither the bases I have been to nor their nearby cities live up to the standard of a nice little university city some 50 miles north of London. Yet this is, of course, a bigoted view and does not take into account beautiful Welsh valleys or Scottish highlands which surround some bases.

IOT, I can get through by playing the game when necessary and just getting on with it. But it will make me question why I am doing it all, especially when I'm not entirely convinced by the life afterwards.

Once again, thank you for all your input and I am still to make a final decision. Once I do, I will let you know.

[Herod]

aevu.

Don't do it. You are not nearly committed enough.

Flying was the only thing I wanted to do, since knee-high. Yes, on basic training , still not eighteen,I did get homesick. Lying awake at 3am, in a barrack-block, thinking "If I left now, tomorrow morning I would be home, Mum would cook me breakfast, and I wouldn't have to run round the perimeter-track in the fog". But I also wouldn't have been an RAF pilot. Twelve years military, twenty-seven commercial, and never doubted it. I always had a little prayer "Dear Lord, save me from the daily commute, and I'll never complain about doing walk-rounds in the rain at four in the morning"

[[email protected]]

Agree with Herod.

Although I fell into my RAF career almost accidentally (never thought about flying until very late teens) once in, I couldn't dream of doing anything else.

32 years of continuous flying posts in a variety of helicopter roles later, je ne regrette rien.

Getting airborne in a military aircraft wondering what the poor people on the ground are doing for a living, especially when you break cloud on top and it is pissing down beneath just knocks anything a comfy university town North of London could offer into a cocked hat.

If aviation hasn't captured your imagination after UAS then it probably isn't for you.

Enjoy whatever it is you end up doing and I hope you don't regret your decision if you bang out of IOT.

[just another jocky]

aevu.

Don't do it. You are not nearly committed enough.




D'you know what, I agree.


If the thought of NOT living in "a nice little university city some 50 miles north of London." is giving you pause for thought over being able to "fly a Typhoon from low level, right up to flight level nosebleed supersonic, night and day all over the world... The opportunity to fly the F35 off of a deck or the chance to live in any number of countries around the world as part of exchanges tours..." then you are clearly not the right person for the job. Please don't waste a valuable pilot slot on IOT.

[WASALOADIE]

Heaven forbid you might have to go and live in the middle of nowhere in a sandy dusty place with no air con, if you're lucky you might be given a tent to share and a solar shower to use. Have you really considered that you might have to go and live in really austere conditions? With no WiFi or mobile phone signal.


Take a look back at some of the RAF's deployments: The Falklands, The Gulf Wars, Bosnia, Kosovo etc etc etc.


Whilst we joke about the RAF living in hotels etc, it's not all like that.


Either man-up or pull out!

[pasta]

IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes you make when you leave University (to pursue any career) is to try to replicate the same lifestyle. This is especially so if you're at the university I think you're at (which is also where I studied) - you're not going to replicate that experience anywhere else, and if that's what you're trying to do you're going to end up disappointed. I know, because that's exactly what I did.

Whether you go ahead with IOT or choose another path, embrace what you do for what it is, and do it the very best you can; this is the road to fulfilment and a happy life. Some aspects of your life will not be as good, some will be better. Make the best of the opportunities, shrug off the disappointments.

This isn't the last big lifestyle change you're going to have to deal with. You may get married, you may have kids; one day you will almost certainly retire. At every life change, look back and appreciate the great things you did but can no longer do, accept that you're not doing those things any more, and give the next phase of your life everything you have - as with almost everything, you get out what you put in.

[ImageGear]

If you are raising the question at this stage in the process, you are definitely not hungry enough. You need to want to be an RAF pilot so badly you can taste it, smell it, and feel it, nothing and I mean nothing can stand in your way. You may hold, be sent to unpalatable places, get wrung out like a rag, but if it is really what you want, you will consider it a great investment.

IOT is part of a process to deliver pilots, at peak performance, to the front line, with all the skills and capabilities needed to do Her Majesty's business.
Lives are a stake, your colleagues, your family and the Nation will be depending on you.

The RAF only selects for fast jets, transport and helicopter pilots are drawn from guys who for one reason or another could not meet the very demanding requirements.

So, unless you have a "Damascus Road" experience, it would be in your best interest to take the other road and give someone who really, really, REALLY wants it, a slot.

Imagegear

[Captivep]

I think the OP deserves credit for raising the question but, as has been said, merely raising it actually also provides the answer.

As someone who didn't make it through OASC many moons ago (but did get a Commission in another service later and learnt to fly privately later) but has subsequently had an enjoyable and successful career I can say this:

Being a FJ pilot in the RAF was the only thing I ever wanted to do, and it still is!:{

If you don't feel like that about it, walk away now.

[lsh]

Once your mind has gone, you are finished!

lsh
:E

[YellowTom]

Aevu,

As I'm sure you know - if you get 10 replies on PPrune you'll end up with 15 opinions to manage!

While you observations may seem to some to be negative, I suspect they're only based on what you've seen and experienced rather than you interpretation of them. It'd be hard to disagree with them.

The days of people wanting to join the RAF because they love flying so much that's all they've ever wanted to do and they want to do it so much they'll live in horrid housing in an isolated part of the country are over. Sorry retired folks - those days are over.

Today people join because they want an exciting and enjoyable stepping stone for the second chapter of their career. For pilots, this more often than not all is about getting the hours to move into the airline world in their late 30s. For the ground trades, this is often about working in a world that pays you while you're in the gym, trains you to do a difficult job that gets you good qualifications, and then lets you do that job in difficult conditions.

As a 22 year old with a good degree, the graduate schemes of the UK's larger employers offer worlds which couldn't be any more different to the RAF. Big salaries, great names to put on your CV and experience of working with modern digital technologies etc. etc. That said, people in your situation do still join the RAF, even as pilots! But I'm not sure any of the reasons why they do it today have been mentioned on this page so far.

[roving]

I agree with the views above.

I grew up on Royal Air Force stations. My dad only ever - save for a couple of years flew for a living spanning a period of more than 40 years. My father's desk would be covered in beautiful maps with carefully drawn lines on them. His book case full of books on flying. That is not to say he no other interests. He was a very good pianist and liked fast cars and travel. But his raison d'être was flying.

In common with Herod, my dad had also dreamt of flying from being knee high. He even made a mock- up joystick as a young boy..

I knew however from a young age that it was not for me. I chose an entirely different profession where I could use my cerebral skill set and communication skills as an advocate.

Flying particularly in military service, like other professions including my own, requires total commitment of body and soul. Like a successful long distance runner it is not a question of having to go that extra mile in training, it is a case of wanting to go that extra mile to be the best.

[just another jocky]

Today people join because they want an exciting and enjoyable stepping stone for the second chapter of their career. For pilots, this more often than not all is about getting the hours to move into the airline world in their late 30s.


Really. That may be true of yourself and possibly a few of your mates but it is most certainly NOT true of the majority. I have taught hundreds of trainee RAF pilots and that is not the majority view in my experience.



The days of people wanting to join the RAF because they love flying so much that's all they've ever wanted to do and they want to do it so much they'll live in horrid housing in an isolated part of the country are over. Sorry retired folks - those days are over.



I'm not retired, just 35 years of experience and in current full-time flying practice. Please don't generalise.

[MPN11]

I think I was about 12 when my father had the inevitable chat about "what are you going to do?". I wanted to be an officer in the Armed Forces, which one as yet undefined. I made one thing very clear ... I didn't want to follow him into the daily trudge of commerce, with a world bounded by office walls*.

The CCF, and later ATC, polarised my Light Blue thinking, and my PPL (Flying Scholarship) refined it further. Sadly my eyesight wasn't up to scratch, but wait ... the Royal Navy took Helicopter Pilots with my acceptable/correctable deficiency. And so, after successful Selection processes, it was off to BRNC Dartmouth.

And here is the point of my dribblings ... I wasn't in the least bit interested in the RN, just the opportunity to fly professionally in the Military. I have no idea how my apathy for things nautical, or the interestingly archaic customs and nomenclature, would have worked out, as to everyone's benefit I failed flying grading.

Shortly after I joined the RAF as an ATCO, thus fulfilling my original broadly-scoped ambition, and had a reasonably successful career which I actually enjoyed.

I went into the RN for completely wrong reasons, with no interest in the Navy per se. I have little doubt, even if I had been successful, I would have hated it. Without 100% motivation for whichever Service, I submit anyone is on a hiding to nothing in the medium term (and the long term is unlikely to apply).


* That came later, during numerous tours at MoD, NATS and Group HQs :)

[Parson]

I can understand the 'Don't waste an IOT pilot slot' and the 'You're not committed enough' viewpoints. But really, you have little to lose. You won't get through IOT, pilot training and make it to a front line squadron unless you are 100% committed but you might find, when surrounded and encouraged by others in the same position, that you do have that desire.

Worst that can happen is that you bang out at some stage. There would be no shame in that and you can head off and do your PhD then. A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing.

I went through OASC in the early 90s and failed pilot selection on eyesight but was offered nav. I decided I didn't want to sit behind/next to someone doing the job I really wanted, but there have been times over the years when I wonder whether should I have given it more consideration.

Be selfish and think about what you could be turning down.

[MPN11]

A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing
That's moot! If I had started my RAF career a year or two earlier, I would have been in a different demographic cohort with markedly different (faster & higher) promotion opportunities.

How my abilities/deficiences would have influenced my career is a different question, but I know for sure I wasted 2 significant years (63 and 64) by not being in the rat-race already!

[Parson]

MPN11 - sure, in military terms, but that is not the issue. Sounds like the OP will head off into academia if not the air force, and I doubt a year finding out that you weren't cut out for the military and/or flying would make much difference.

[handleturning]

A brave question on a forum like this. I disagree with some of your statements, there's no real force bonding anymore and most people live off base and lead a very normal 'faux civilian' life. However, it's not a job its a vocation; if you're not 100% committed you'll almost certainly fail training. Even if you get to the frontline, you will be working with people who will walk through walls to get the job done, if that's not you then save yourself the time, and effort and do something that better suits you.

[Wander00]

Not sure about the thread title - he is not considering "quitting". IMHO he is considering his life choices. As a flt cdr at the Towers in the 80s I had an issue with cadets being described as "failing" The RAF selected them and trained them, but "they" failed. Not in my book, and furthermore if they "failed to reach the standard required for commissioning, they needed to go on to other things without carrying a "failure" label. In a few instances I had cadets in my charge who clearly should not have been there. In one case it was because his father was RAF and "told" his son to follow in his footsteps. In another case the stude had been brought up by a single Mum, and had been taught never to put his head above the parapet. He finally asked to VW (resign) the Friday before Black Monday (results) but I sent him away for the weekend and think about what he wanted to do. He transferred to NCO aircrew, was successful and later commissioned. Youngest W mentioned earlier in the thread, qualified as a Yachtmaster Offshore, commercially endorsed, at 20, decided to go to uni and earned a BSc in yacht building and survey, got hooked into computer aided design. Worked on contract to National Grid, and had to go and talk to farmers about wayleaves and address public meetings. That really hit the spot, and he is now with an infrastructure surveyors and about to start a the ARICS course. Let life take you where it will. At least I have a very happy and contented 29 year old son.

[Rather be Gardening]

I joined the RAF late-ish (30) after another career. I spent a year looking into what the Service could offer me, and matching that with what I could offer it, before applying. I loathed, hated and detested IOT but gritted my teeth and got on with it because I knew that the 'real' RAF wasn't like that. I had 21 years of the most exhilarating and satisfying careers I could have wished for. It wasn't all beer and skittles - there were tough times too - but I had the satisfaction of serving my country (old-fashioned concept, I know), and of the RAF making the most of my skills and abilities.

The best thing was the people I served with, all the way through, Service and civilians. And I was proud to hold HM's commission.

[Easy Street]

When I signed up, I wasn't 100% that the RAF was the career for me. However it was an easy decision to join because (broadly speaking) you only get one opportunity. As an earlier poster said, if it doesn't pan out, you can always leave. What you cannot do, as a bored middle-aged executive in a City firm with a nice house and a tedious rail commute, sat at your desk wondering 'what if?', is wind the clock back 30 years and become a RAF pilot instead.

In my view, you can't possibly make a decision on any of the following factors at your stage as there are simply too many variables:

- Location
- Nature of flying / aircraft type
- Flying hours

There are some things that are more certain:

- Camaraderie
- Satisfaction of serving and (potentially) playing a bit-part in history
- Income security
- Pension (despite recent changes, still better than private sector offerings)
- Variety (a "new job" every few years if you want it, without risk)

There are many downsides to the job, but there is still something rather special about being a military pilot.

I note that BA has just opened a self-funded pilot apprenticeship scheme. If multi-engine is your aim and you're not particularly bothered about serving Queen and country, I would go to them instead.

[Bugs to forty]

aevu

You need to get in touch with the President of the Aptitude Board at OASC; he's the one who most probably signed-off your selection/board report. Ask for a chat over the phone, be honest and tell him that you're having a bit of a wobble over whether the RAF is right for you, right now. If you were a strong candidate at selection, OASC will likely have some flexibility to delay your place at IOT so you can get your doubts out of your system.

Top-tip: please don't leave it until the last minute (i.e., last couple of months) then withdraw - these IOT places are very valuable both in demand and cost!

Good luck with your decision.

[Timelord]

The thing that will see you through all the things you think you might not like is the comradeship / teamwork / BELONGING that comes from being a member of a close knit team / crew / formation / squadron. ( and It does not have to involve the bar) If THAT does not appeal to you then don't do it.

[Top Bunk Tester]

Intersting thread, all I can add is that it’s horses for courses, you have a marvellous oportunity ahead of you and you should be proud at this point to have been selected for IOT, it’s no mean feat and the selectors must have seen something in you to pass you through selection. If you approach IOT with an open mind you may find you like it, if not you have only lost a short period of your young life and will at least come away with an experience that could serve you well in whatever other career you may choose. I wish you well in whatever you decide.

Pontius Navigator

Finally, unfavourable parts of the country; not many bases left so define unfavourable? Multies Wiltshire or Lincolnshire, maybe Scotland but less likely. FJ, Norfolk, Lincolnshire, Scotland.

As you are/were a Directional Consultant I had to chuckle at the above statement from post # 4, I am sure that the residents of RAF Brize Norton will be enamoured to know that the borders have all changed :)

[insty66]

I think the op is wise to question his decision, it shows a level of maturity that might be of some use.

I would challenge his view of isolated bases, the favourite example of Marham is 2 1/2 hours away from London and you have easy access to some of the best beaches in the country with all the activities you associate with being near the coast (except surfing perhaps). All the other bases have their pros and cons. In general the bases are not that bad, it's just all us old farts in here can't stop remembering the good old days, conveniently forgetting when we were young the old farts were complaining about how things have gone to the dogs, 'twas ever thus.

I would have thought a holding officer would have countless opportunities for AT, learning new skills and sports & developing their leadership qualities. How you perceive and approach these things will shape your experiences.

How can the flying not be worth it? Regardless of stream I believe that living and working on a Sqn brings a sense of belonging that is almost impossible to find elsewhere and when you go on ops, team spirit and sense of achievement is unparalleled.

To repeat two pieces of good advice, don't regret what you didn't do and whatever you do give it your all.

Whatever you choose good luck.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

OEVU - I have had a fairly varied career but I'm still fairly young for the average pruner (under 35!). I would say that I don't fit the 'standard UAS' image of the play hard culture. To be honest, a pretty large number of my colleagues don't, we just lead normal (boring?!) lives. Certainly don't take your UAS experience as an indicator of what life inside is like. I've spent a lot of time on/around UAS's (3 now) and all of them, whilst being full of good people, have definitely revolved around a good night in the bar.

There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.

Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.

Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).

Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.

All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.

All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.

Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.

[dashman20]

Hi OP.
Just seen your post and been beaten into replying by a host of individuals far more qualified than I!
What a lucky SOB you are to have the choice,but having said that it’s obviously not an easy one for you.I was once in your shoes but had the choice made for me in the lead up to GW1 when the RAF just stopped recruiting for a while....I then became too old!
Nearly 30 years down the road I occasionally think ‘what if.’However,I’ve had a fantastic civil flying career and funnily enough,worked with plenty of ex RAF guys of a very similar age to myself,nearly to a man they are convinced I didn’t miss much at the end of the game.What did strike me was the sheer amount of luck nearly all of them said they had in succeeding FJ training,almost saying that was the only reason they got through!
You have obviously got a great opportunity waiting for you to accept it,however unless you really think that you are up to the challenge,and not just fitting in at the bar,I think that you are correct to think about your motives.Its not just about flying.Its the same deliberation every member of the armed forces face at some stage....do you want to fight for your beliefs and are you willing to pay the price?
Good luck with your choice.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Worst that can happen is that you bang out at some stage. There would be no shame in that and you can head off and do your PhD then. A year or so lost in your 20s is nothing.



It is if you want to go airline flying. Given the cyclical nature of the industry, a young person can miss sponsorship opportunities or a period of high demand and end up stuck in the doldrums for several years.

[Basil]

Like crab, I 'fell into it'. I liked engineering, had been a seagoing marine eng but decided that, one day, I'd do the marriage/family thing and long absences in the MN would not be conducive to a happy relationship. I thought I'd spend my life working in a power station.
Saw an ad for pilots and thought: 'Give it a go.'
Never looked back - sure beat the crap out of working for a living ;)

Thank you Kennedy & Kruschev for failing to play nicely together!

Whether you (or the RAF) decide you aren't suited you'll have had a go and the experience will last forever. As a nav once said to me: 'Time spent in reconnaissance is never wasted!'

[NutLoose]

That can happen in any job, personally speaking go for it, if it does not work out for you after giving it your best, what have you lost, a gap year in your life... If it does work out for you the rewards will be phenomenal, and if you jack it in before giving it your best you may end up in a dull dead end boring desk job for the rest of your life thinking.......sigh.. What if.

Ohhh and you get a free watch :)

[Basil]

Ohhh and you get a free watch
The blighters took mine back when I left!

[MPN11]

The blighters took mine back when I left!Likewise ... let's not confuse the OP by dangling imaginary carrots.

[NutLoose]

Sorry I forgot to mention it's the one job on retirement you give them the watch :(

[heights good]

OEVU - I have had a fairly varied career but I'm still fairly young for the average pruner (under 35!). I would say that I don't fit the 'standard UAS' image of the play hard culture. To be honest, a pretty large number of my colleagues don't, we just lead normal (boring?!) lives. Certainly don't take your UAS experience as an indicator of what life inside is like. I've spent a lot of time on/around UAS's (3 now) and all of them, whilst being full of good people, have definitely revolved around a good night in the bar.

There's a time and a place for that, and I don't have issue with those that do, but don't feel you have to enjoy that to 'fit in'.

Secondly, regarding whether it's what you want to do with your life, you're right to ask difficult questions. However, don't think that by doing it you're committing to being a monk-pilot for the rest of your life. I'm looking at a second career right now, not in aviation at all, and my previous stands me in excellent stead in many ways across the board.

Thirdly - regarding pleasant places to live 50 miles from London. Consider Oxford, Reading and Winchester. About 5-6000 RAF personnel work within easy commute of the above, including 1/2 the multi fleet and all of the rotary fleet (although you do have to become the unloved step child of the RAF if you go rotary).

Fourthly - regarding the average working week Vs flying etc. Everything comes in fits and starts. Every pilot will love to whine about the times they only got 15 hours in 3 months, but they'll totally fail to mention the time they got 100! Those times are the ones where the memories are made, on a shooting op or, like the guys recently deployed to the Carribbean trying to make a difference.

All the above is pretty pro-RAF. Bear in mind I'm actively looking to leave, and that should tell you I don't think it's all rosey. I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time working my ass off, and I've had several years spent at least half away from home, which works at some stages of life but not at others. For me, I love flying (and I've spent this week flying my ass off, so I'm happy!) but it's time to go back to studying and try my hand at a different challenge I think.

All I'd say to you is, at the age of 35-40 you can change your mind and go get a PhD or do whatever floats your boat that way. However, you can't get your hands on a Typhoon, Chinook or A400 at the second bite of the cherry, so if you choose something else, it's permanent.

Wish you all the best either way, continue to be thoughtful, but don't beat yourself up whichever way you choose, just own your decision.

What he said :)

[4Greens]

My career was easy, all I wanted to do was fly. The military was the best and cheapest start. Flying was all I ever did, then flew in civil aviation for 30 years.

Its flying, forget the rest.

[SARF]

If you get a shot at being a FJ pilot and your not sure your want to do it.. then don't do it.
Your filling a space for someone who does

[banterbus]

aevu,

Current FL FJ operator here, and with that in mind, I found your post extremely interesting, as even now your concerns are issues I have with my position in the military.

I never, however, had any doubts at your stage, and didn't even question my commitment to joining, which should be, and clearly is a worry. I was 100% dedicated, and to be honest, I think you will find IOT and subsequently flying training extremely challenging because of this (it's pretty difficult as it is!).

Several years down the line, would have I done anything different? Nope. I've loved it, overall. There are however, significant shortcomings now as life goes on, which is why I'm considering my position.

The flying is the best you will do in pretty much any flying job there is on offer, regardless of where you end up; this is what has kept me in the job thus far.

I would just say nip it in the bud early, your concerns are all warranted, and you will get frustrated. This frustration will be enhanced by the fact you are already aware of it all, and obviously query whether or not the flying is enough to overcome these.

Wrt the boozing element, I don't think that you will necessarily find that an issue. There are plenty of people that do not socialise as much as others, the main reason this occurs is that yes, you can be a bit isolated at times, but also as you've all got a lot in common, and therefore it is easy to hang out. If you don't, then you're not going to fail anything or struggle just because of this. Your UAS experience should tell you deep down your overall thoughts on this.

Don't be afraid to PM me if you have any other specific questions mate.

BB.

[2g or not 2g]

aevu

I finished IOT very recently, and can echo some of the comments made here in terms of the critical need for motivation. You said that Cranwell would just be a case of playing the game, that is the cadet party line, what it does not mention is sometimes that game can get on every single nerve in your body. My mate and I going through would say "Jesus Christ I just want to fly planes!" to each other a good 3 to 4 times a week. If I was not absolutely sure of my ambition to get into the cockpit some day it may have been a different story. Just ask the poor buggers at Sandhurst.

UAS wise quite a few people, myself included, were a bit shocked at just how different the RAF is to the UAS (there was more to the RAF than just flying and drinking). Having said that we were still an incredibly social bunch, we had a no doors closed before 2200 rule, the bar was well attended, and we liked to go to the gym together. Those who closed their doors at 1700 everyday not to emerge again until the next morning were not seen in a good light.

Life post IOT, I have an 11 month hold now before I start EFT, and no one else on my IOT will be starting before me. But I speak to my mates most days, and they are all off doing station visits, sunning it up in Cyprus, or acting as sandbags from the back seats of Hawks. Others are in an office from 0800 until 1730 everyday. Luck of the draw, simple as that.

Mate essentially I am inclined to agree with what the others are saying. I have wanted to be an RAF pilot since I was old enough to want anything, and to hear others be given places when I know of some people with similar motivation to me who were turned down is a bit vexing. That slot you're umming and arrring about, some people would give everything they have to take it.

Cheers easy.

[blimey]

'Quitting before IOT'

Quit.

It's about duty, not pandering to sensibilities.

[CoodaShooda]

Perhaps the question you need to ask yourself is "how will I feel in the future if I don't take up this opportunity now?"

I chose my nom de prune as a direct result of having been in your position 40 years ago, albeit with the RAAF.

It took two years before I regretted my decision not to take up the offer. And I've had 38 long years of living with that regret.

And before I'm jumped on for being a starry eyed romantic with no practical experience to call on, I found my regret was validated while watching my son go through the process to earn a FJ seat.

He is based in a very remote location in a very hot climate. (not the Middle East or Afghanistan) and he loves his job.

[BEagle]

My mate and I going through would say "Jesus Christ I just want to fly planes!" to each other a good 3 to 4 times a week.

After a year as a Flt Cdt, then 4 years at the UAS, IOT was only bearable because every time you looked up, there would be someone in a JP looking down. That maintained our motivation....

Why ever are people holding these days? Is it because the farce of MFTS cannot cope?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Holding very rarely has anything to do with the flying training system and a lot more to do with changing requirements on the frontline. It's easy to blame PTC/22 Gp/mfts but the reality is that holding of various lengths has always and will always be a thing if you change the demand on the frontline after or before people have been recruited and trained to fill those slots. Some folks get lucky and zip through with zero holds, others spend some time cooling their heels. The key of a long hold is to get a proper job and learn something about the real world from it.

[[email protected]]

Or more likely because the sausage machine that is the flying training system only has 2 speeds - OFF (oh no we've got too many pilots, lets stop training and chop people we have just taken to wings standard) or FULL ON (f**k Me we haven't got enough pilots - who saw that coming).

Short-term knee-jerk reactions compounded by contracting out most of the training system.

[VinRouge]

Would say to the OP, that once your first two tours are down, the world is your oyster. If you want to get into academia, there are opportunities (that actually aren't particularly popular to the majority of the flying branch, as they are too busy enjoying flying). Google DCDC, Shrivenham Defence College, Boscombe Down and AWC. If you are of a physical sciences bent, consider the ressurected Aerosystems Course.

Location wise, personnel at Brize live within commute distance of Cheltenham, Bath and Oxford, so plenty of opportunity for a life outside of the mob. However, unless your parents are minted, the mess provides an excellent way of saving the horrendous deposit required for said house purchase.

Drinking culture - no one is going to force a beer down your neck. The days of a hardcore drinking culture are long gone, if anything, it's quite badly frowned upon (quite rightly so) if you have a reputation for drinking and are aircrew. Many head out to socialise in the local area, if you want to organise.

Bottom line, whether you like it or not, your days of university will come to an end at some day. The military offers you fantastic opportunities, far in excess of what is available as a civvie. You just have to seek them and as an officer, perhaps develop them for your own, and other benefit.

If you aren't willing to take the rough with the smooth and are going to be the guy on my crew that bitches when on the odd occasion they are sat in austre conditions (yes, that is part of the job) and make the most of it, this job isn't for you. Make no mistake, you are joining a fighting military force that until very recently, was overcommitted on 2 major conflicts with additional commitments as and when HM Government decided. If you don't see the benefit in being part of something far bigger than yourself, willing to make personal sacrifices to support activity that you may find questionable but most of the time will find highly rewarding, again, this is not for you. It's not an easy job but I wouldn't change it for the world.

[downsizer]

If you're thinking Brize and perhaps C130, remember you have a lot of flying training to fail to get there first...:ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Some jobs can be done by anyone qualified - others (surgeons, musicians, rock climbers come to mind) require a manic level of commitment

I'd put military flying in the second box - you might eventually get depressed doing it but I suspect there is no way you start sceptically and become enthused

Don't waste your time - you clearly are thinking straight and I can't see anyone criticisng you for recognising the issue and doing something about it - life is about choices

[Melchett01]

Lots of replies so far, and I think they have all been reasonable and to an extent expected in the sense of either suggesting your heart isn't in it or that you'd be mad not to at least give it a go.

The question I would ask is a little more fundamental - what do you actually want out of life? Or should I say what do you think you want out of life?

If all you want to do is fly, or that joining the military seems like a good idea to get your professional life going and flying isn't a bad option, then I think the points you make, many of which are valid, will soon come to dominate your professional existence and you could find yourself quite unhappy rather quickly.

Alternatively, if you aren't professionally motivated in the sense that chasing money and job titles isn't the be all and end all of working, and that you think you'd like to do something with your life that offers a sense of meaning and the ability to give back to society and your country - yes it's a slightly old fashioned view - and maybe even end up as a footnote in the history books, then your questions are still valid. But you will quickly come to see that they represent just a small part of the bigger picture and in the grand scheme of things are not insurmountable.

But which of these 2 avenues you really want to go down is only something you can decide. But for what it's worth, I see elements of my own thinking in your post. If you had asked me 20 years ago where I thought I would be, where I am now certainly wouldn't have been my answer. Like you I'm probably more academically minded than anything else. And I hate sitting in meetings and briefings and would much rather be achieving something than just talking about it. But they take up an increasing amount of my time as I progress up the ranks, but equally I can't deny the context of many of the meetings offers genuinely interesting insights into how Defence works. And socially I'm far happier having an intimate dinner with friends at home than I am getting hammered in the Mess although I did do a bit of that in my time on UAS as well as my first couple of tours, and the occasional dining in nights is a useful reminder about the pleasure of camaraderie. But what you need to appreciate is that we are a broad church and there is no single type that succeeds. It took me a while to work that out and when I had I became far happier in my own skin than trying to fit into some preconceived officer-shaped mould. And as one friend said to me a few months back over drinks, 'I know you get frustrated, but for as long as I've known you it really always has been about Queen and Country for you hasn't it?' . That surprised me as in many ways I'm the least military person I know, but it goes to show that we are all individuals and there is a space for us to contribute and succeed in our own ways.

All that we would ask is that you put in 100% effort into whatever you end up doing, you do the best you can and as an officer you look after those under you whilst trying to make the system that bit better. If you want a full career, your starting point will be just that, and fairly quickly you will find yourself going down avenues you didn't even know existed let alone were open; fancy being the Air Attache working in Amman for a few years? That job has just been advertised by my Deskie; bet they didn't mention those sorts of things in the Careers Office did they?

So back to you - what do you actually want from life? If it's a relatively predictable existence, money and job titles, then you may be happier elsewhere. If you have a sense of wanting to contribute back to society, there are far worse things than being paid to do it. I asked myself that very question lying in bed the night before I set off for IOT. You aren't the first and you won't be the last, so don't worry about having doubts, but it is your decision at the end of the day. We can only tell you so much about what it's like inside the wire.

[drustsonoferp]

Be wary of judging the RAF based on UAS: it will be rather different. The difference might be similar to that required of judging BAE Systems or a bank on the basis of their future employees behaviour in the university Union bar.

Bar culture has changed significantly in the RAF, and an average night on an average station sees the bar relatively quiet. What else do people do? All the same things they do in the outside world up and down the country, though with better access to a free gym, climbing wall etc.

There remains a general truism that RAF stations are rural. There are fewer neighbours to wind up with aircraft movements that way, but that by no means results in a lack of access to civilisation in the real world when you want it. I have moved around the country, enjoying different scenery, mountains, coast, rolling countryside and a different view of things from life on the continent: all interesting, all different, and all full of different people.

I think it would be churlish to assume you won’t fit in just because of UAS bar behaviour you’ve witnessed, or that the infrastructure is in such a poor state that you will not enjoy whatever posting you might receive.

If, however, you are absolutely wedded to a proximity to your parental home, or inflexible in terms of how and where you are to work, you are right to question whether you would enjoy an RAF career-but you might well apply the same logic to any career elsewhere, which almost certainly will not look the same on the inside as it does from outside.

I’m not a pilot, so cannot offer any insight on that.

[Blackfriar]

I spent my childhood wanting to fly in the RAF. Air Training Corps at 13 through to 18, gliding wings and passed all the aptitude tests for fast jet at Biggin Hill but failed the eyesight. All I ever wanted to do was join the RAF and they wouldn't even let me fly at UAS because they were pandering to people like you with no commitment and good eyesight.
I went to University planning to go into the RAF in a ground role (Supply and Movements) but after three years at Uni, I went on IOT at Cranwell and Voluntarily Withdrew after 4 weeks.
There was no need to join an organisation where I had to do as I was told, without question, even if that meant getting killed to satisfy the whim of some stupid politician who didn't realise that withdrawing all support south of the equator would signal to Argentina that we couldn't care less.

I went into civil aviation and had an enjoyable time for 8 years before moving on. However nothing would have stopped me if i could have flown - Herc, Helicopter, Phantom/Tornado or even a Queen's Flight budgie.

If you can't tell the difference between fast jet and a PHD, then go and do the PHD, which is just putting off joining the real world for another few years. By using flying time in the UAS you have selfishly blocked someone else who cared.

[Dr Jekyll]

Suppose someone accepted for pilot training does make it through IOT. Roughly what are the chances of actually getting through to the end of OCU?

[banterbus]

Dr,

Depends on the timeframe you're looking at; the redundancies post SDSR 2010 significantly skewed this figure for our generation.

In general, though, without this events considered, it has to be over 90% post IOT in my experience.

BB.

[Fareastdriver]

Next time you are on an Underground train in London look around you.

Would you stick your life on the line for that lot?

The 'Mad Major' did that before he had an interview in London. So did I when I went for my interview with the Air Sec's at my 38 point.

Same result: Bye Bye.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Next time you are on an Underground train in London look around you.
Would you stick your life on the line for that lot?

The point is that you don't do it for them - you do it for your family and your squadron.

[BEagle]

I used to refer to the MoD Main Building as the 'Specialist Aircrew Recruiting Centre'. You just had to truss yourself up in suit and tie, spend time on the stifling underground before witnessing the shabbiness of the place and seeing all those poor $ods pandering to the 17:00-on-a-Friday whim of some VSO to realise that the minor embuggerances of a flying station were infinitely preferable!

So in 30 years, apart from 6 weeks of PVR porridge, I didn't have a single ground tour....:ok:

Unlike people-tube civvy flying, military flying is rarely boring or routine. I once flew over HQ STC at low level in one of HM's Bulldogs and saw the procession of people in raincoats trudging back up the hill from lunch in the Officers' Mess - the 'gabardine swine' staff officers, poor $ods. "You'll end up like one of those if you're stupid enough to be a career thruster", I told my student.

If you've been given the opportunity of a pilot slot at IOT, you really should grasp the challenge - you'll never get another bite at that cherry!

[tarantonight]

OP,

You either want to be a Pilot, or do not . Simple as that.

TN.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Simple answer, the RAF is not for you. I wouldn't waste a couple of years of your life determining this.

[Tay Cough]

After spending a lot of years in the ATC, completing a FS and joining the UAS, by the end of Uni I found I was deemed to be medically unfit for military flying. I have since spent twenty years flying airliners and practicing various forms of hooliganism in small aircraft on my days off.

While I'm pleased with the direction my life has gone, part of me regrets not having the opportunity to be able to fly a grey pointy reheated thing, even though statistically I'd probably have been streamed elsewhere anyway.

In short, if you believe you will look back and regret not having tried, get on and do it, given the opportunity is there for you. If you don't, there'll be someone out there who will who won't thank you for wasting their slot.

[Rossian]

...is he sitting somewhere whimpering under the deluge of contradictory info/opinions?

You have to give it your best shot matey. Stop mithering and go for it.

On day one at S Cerney a long time ago, as we got off the train the blessed Sgt Sparkes shouted from the bus "Get a move on gentlemen I'm getting bloody wet here".
The chap standing beside me made a sort of whimpering noise, picked up his bag and got back on the train.
Many moons later I often wondered what he said to his parents when he got home....
Don't be 2017's version of that guy.

The Ancient Mariner

[Herod]

Rossian,

You had a worse one than my course. Our first quitter was late morning on the first full day. One night in the block, followed by an early start, was enough for him. I wasn't quite eighteen,and had led a fairly sheltered life in Oz, so was well and truly out of my comfort zone. However, you don't get to be an RAF pilot any other way than doing it. BTW, Sgt Sparkes wasn't so bad.

[Rossian]

......Ned Sparkes was a bloody outstanding chap. I last met him at St Mawgan where he was the SWO. I was w/e duty officer and called to ask for the DO's bag of knowledge to be left out for me as I'd just landed. I thought I recognised the voice so I rang back about a minute after and asked if he had been the 3 Squadron drill sgt "Yes, I was" he replied "and I recognised yoiur voice too Mr Rossian". It took me about 2 weeks to understand what he was saying(being a young lad from the Highlands) when giving drill commands.

The Ancient Mariner

[BEagle]

One night in the South Brick Lines and one of Slasher's Cranwell cadet haircuts was enough for the chap with whom I shared the train ride from King's Cross to Grantham in Sep 1968....:uhoh:

Crowing hadn't even started either!

[Fareastdriver]

Halfway through my ITS course at South Cerney National Service was stopped. There was about a week before it was established that any cadets who suspended themselves would NOT be liable for conscription.

After that there was only the UAS plus about four of us Direct Entry left, the other eight had disappeared.

Our passing out parade on the course I was recoursed to must have been the smallest in history; about ten of us. I don't think we bothered with a photograph.

[Wander00]

There was a guy early 80s departed early am on Day 2, leaving a £20 note and a note to say it it had all been a mistake and sorry for any trouble he had caused

[ACW418]

Our fastest retiree from South Cerney in 1962 was a chap whose surname was Vitesse. Didn't stop the first night even!

ACW

[etudiant]

Think BEagle and Tay Cough have the essence of this thread.
You've earned a unique opportunity, but only you can decide whether you want to seize it.
IOT is obviously a triage situation, HMG wants to wash out the non committed, so you are right to pause before you step up. A burning desire to fly obviously helped many to overcome the vicissitudes of the program, but it is surely not essential.
In your case, the question is what are your other choices.
It seemed that you have good university prospects, but no massively better option.
If you had a link to a strong academic advisor, who could map out an alternative route for you, the choice would be harder. But as is, you're in a super select group, many of whom probably have similar concerns and doubts. That is a good set of associates to have. So recognize your good fortune and try your hardest to maximize it. Not many will have that option.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

"I have always had doubts about whether the RAF would be right for me" - if there is doubt, there is no doubt. Joining the military is a huge undertaking and in my opinion is more a lifestyle than a job or career.

"...be involved in this forced group bonding, even if you would want to cultivate friendships with just a few people. This is probably not the right attitude for the military, so I wouldn't get very far." I disagree in that it isn't 'forced group bonding' and that you could succeed in the RAF while disassociating yourself from all but 'just a few people' however, it is unlikely that you will fit in. The RAF is about camaraderie, making best friends with people you've only just met and being friends when you bump into them again years later. You are likely to be viewed as an outsider, and not because you don't want to get boozed in the bar.

"Second, the bases are depressing, isolated and you could end up working in unfavourable parts of the country." yip, they might even be in unfavourable parts of the world; I've spent over 2 years in **** deserts around the world living in portacabins and tents, half of that time in non-flying jobs. But it is the camaraderie that makes it doable and I've seen and done some interesting stuff.

"wouldn't you rather work in a pleasant town/city" yes, there are a number of places I would rather work in however, the military isn't a career where you get to choose. If you don't want the risk of being posted to deepest darkest Scotland to fly Typhoon/P8, again, the RAF is not for you. If you want to make some great friends and make the most of whatever crap mess/quarter you get posted to then come on board!

"I know people who are on 1+ year holds between IOT and EFT. It could take over 5 years to become operational." Holds are an unfortunate norm for RAF flying training. You might get lucky; I was relatively lucky and only held for 1 year in total. With re-streaming it took me 6 years to get operational. The way MFTS is going, my guess is there is a good chance you hold longer.

"Even then, you might only fly 15-20 hours a month." You might not fly at all some months. You might bounce from one currency to the next and only get good continuity when you go on operations. You might get posted out of area to a Flight Safety job and not flight at all for 6 months; worse, you might get posted to one in the UK and not fly for a couple of years! Some people get lucky and only fly, but the old adage that you are officer first, pilot second is probably pretty accurate; I have only 2000 hours after 15 years. In saying that I have really enjoyed the variety and challenge of the stuff I have done when not flying and as a result, don't at this stage have any designs on leaving.

"Could I also ask if any of the flying ever gets mundane" yes, I know guys flying on operations right now who find the flying boring. It's all relative though, as it is still more interesting than flying airliners. And even boring flying is more interesting than a lot of desk jobs!

In short, if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines. If you want a career with variety and some great friends, join the RAF and give it 100%. But if there are doubts, there is no doubt.

[1771 DELETE]

With those attitudes i would like to hope the RAF screening process would reject you.
Four years in a UAS and you dont know ? come on, bonding with fellow officers on a squadron or in the mess - you dont like that idea? Its a team game and you are not a team player.

[wiggy]

Warning..well past sell by date, but FWIW

1. I wouldn't say having doubts should automatically rule you "out".I defy anyone to say they never ever had a "WTF am I doing here" moment...but I suspect for most of us it was a brief one..

2. IMHO you can get away with being a slightly square peg in a round hole, it can make for some interesting conversations, you can still have an enjoyable time and make great lifelong friends, just accept that if your views are too off kilter you might not make the dizzy ranks of Marshall of the RAF..

3. Location, Location...well if the bright lights are what you are after then yes, you do have a problem ...Sleaford is probably untouched by modern hand, are Sundays still dry In Anglesey? .....As for the op stuff I left before the desert became fashionable, but I did spend over a month living on a car ferry.......and then we moved to a "facility" which in it's later life became part of a US prison....

4. AP is absolutely correct in stating..." if want to you choose where you live and mainly just fly multi engine aircraft with people you don't know and don't have to socialise with, go to the airlines."

Ultimately you've got one crack at IOT and beyond, you won't get another go - and if you walk away now you will never ever know "could I have done that...". Now if you can live with that...

[Basil]

Very good, brief comment, wiggy.
You don't know if you'll like it until you try it (as they say :O)
I even liked my short tour in ATC.
Although, as a 23yo ex MN officer, I found IOT a bit of a PITA, we were all in it together and humour helped a lot as bollockings were liberally and equitably dished out.
Never forgotten marching to an early morning ensign hoisting parade and, upon hearing a buzzing sound from the centre of our little formation, observed a cadet demonstrating multi-tasking with his battery electric razor.

So there's another thing - the mil produces loads of stories with which to bore wife, kids, airline pilots etc. ;)

[Mowgli]

I think you are not unique in having doubts about embarking on such a commitment as IOT and a future career in the RAF, and I remember before joining having concerns about some of the isolated locations and the demands of IOT. Throughout though, I had the enduring vision of flying military hardware, which provided more than sufficient motivation to counter my concerns and helped me get through the tough times of IOT.

Your concerns about not fitting-in are IMHO unfounded. A squadron, is made up of individuals, some of whom will be more socially gregarious than others, and since you have made it this far, someone has decided that you have sufficient social skills to be considered.

Whether or not the flying makes up for any or all of the downsides, is to an extent, up to you. I note that you have a preference for multis, but this may change as you go through flying training. It would be a shame to brush off the only opportunity you will ever have to fly high performance jets before you have had a taste of the more dynamic stages of training, and in any case, the training is set up to produce a FJ pilot. The other worthy specialisations normally stem from this format.

You have been offered an amazing opportunity but it's understandable that you want to make an informed decision. I'm slightly concerned that you mention a lot about what is to be gained, but given your talents and skills, you will be expected to lead, and that will require you to put others first. The training will help develop you as both a leader, and a good team member. If you consider these qualities to be "abstract ideals", then you need to reflect further, but if you consider that the assessment process has validated you as being worthy of this rare opportunity, then you should "pick up the gauntlet", give it your best, and enjoy the ride.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Do it.

You do not have to be "110% committed, it being the only thing you've ever wanted etc etc". Don't listen to those who talk about taking up spaces that more deserving people could have had. It's your life, do what's best for you.

I only came across the military during the final year at University when looking for a job to go to afterwards. I'd never even heard of the UAS. It sounded a bit more interesting that the run-of-the-mill graduate jobs that I was faced with.

I applied for a ground branch, but ended up as pilot when the recruiting officer said something along the lines of "why don't you want to be a pilot?".

There were times during IOT and fg trg when I seriously wanted to pack it in, but I just said to myself "one more day, give it one more day".

It took 17 more years before I finally said "no, no more days, I'm done".

If you really don't like it once you're in, then leave, but at least you tried.
Don't be the one in 5 years time who looks up at the {insert your favoured type of aircraft here} overhead and thinks "I could have done that".

[Basil]

Officer first pilot second!
Ah yes, recollect all nodding as we were told that . . . and, at that part of our career, thinking otherwise ;)

[[email protected]]

Officer first pilot second! - those who believed in that usually went to staff college and ended up flying desks.. Those who didn't believe it usually went on to lead happy lives flying aircraft:)

[The Old Fat One]

I know of only two people who approached RAF flying training with a, "let's do it for the s**ts n giggles, then get out and do something better" attitude.

One of them was sussed during IOT and given the boot, the other did a bit of fast jet work, left, and subsequently came a cropper in a flying accident of his own creation.

If your post is a considered action of a thoughtful, intelligent young man, well done for generating so many helpful replies. I'm sure you will reach the right decision.

If on the other hand, there is a certain arrogance and over-valued self worth in play here, do yourself a favour and stay away from piloting aircraft of any kind.

Those qualities don't play well in aviation.

[MPN11]

Officer first pilot second! - those who believed in that usually went to staff college and ended up flying desks.. Those who didn't believe it usually went on to lead happy lives flying aircraft:)A strong argument for re-introducing NCO Pilots, there!

There are indeed 2 schools ...

I want to fly aeroplanes
I want a career as an RAF officer

If the OP intends to stay as a flt lt forever, flying, he'll be better paid in civil aviation ... or in some academic field. ;)
Staff College and Whitehall desks tend to produce a better pension [or at least it did].

[[email protected]]

If the OP intends to stay as a flt lt forever, flying, he'll be better paid in civil aviation ... or in some academic field. but won't have half as much fun.

As for pensions - a PA spine level 35 pension as a Flt Lt is equivalent to top rate Wg Cdr gusting Gp Capt but without all the crap:ok:

[MPN11]

... and a top rate wg cdr/gp capt pension = ???

There's a lot of maths involved. When I took the Redundancy money back in 92, my 'pay cut' took me out of the higher rate of tax ... which I was paying on substantial savings interest as well. I was actually flogging my butt off at MoD as a wg cdr for ~ £15k a year :)

YMMV, and I have no idea how the sums work these days. Too busy having holidays, and planning the next ones ;)

[[email protected]]

On current rates a top level Wg Cdr pension after 35 years service is £39,738

A PA spine Flt Lt pilot on level 35 (top level) pension is £40,975

The PA spine allowed all the fg pay a Spec Aircrew officer received to be rolled up into his rank pay and it all became pensionable.

[MPN11]

How bizarre ... Aircrew Bonus, of course.

"PA spine" ???

Such is life, when Retention matters ;)

[[email protected]]

Professional Aviator Spine - it replaced spec aircrew in a fairly spectacular way and, if you were the right age, gave you more money instantly and more money in your pension - very difficult to turn that down.

[MPN11]

Professional Aviator Spine - it replaced spec aircrew in a fairly spectacular way and, if you were the right age, gave you more money instantly and more money in your pension - very difficult to turn that down.Gotcha ... obviously I would have missed that change. I understand the imperative, though.

Nice terminology. Shame they couldn't have woven 'RAF Officer' into that :D :D

We have a former VC-10 Captain around here who is VERY proud of making sqn ldr. He then poked off at the first opportunity to fly for [I think] Cathay. I'm sure he's a pilot, I just can't think of him as an officer ... and his general demeanour bears that out ;)

[[email protected]]

After 12 years in RAF posts I spent 7 years on exchange with the AAC - when I came back to the RAF I think I surprised a few people by being a bit too 'officery' :ok:

[charliegolf]

After 12 years in RAF posts I spent 7 years on exchange with the AAC - when I came back to the RAF I think I surprised a few people by being a bit too 'officery' :ok:

Bet you had a fetching beret too!:ok:

CG

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Bet you as a PA Flt Lt he was fetching the Majors beret when asked too!

[[email protected]]

When the Sgt Major gave me my light blue AAC beret he held it up and looked through the holes where the badge goes - he said 'Sir, when the sky is the same colour as the beret....that's when we let the officers go flying':ok:

[SpazSinbad]

Special Blue Instrument Card for the OLDs.

[Lima Juliet]

A strong argument for re-introducing NCO Pilots, there!

Interestingly NCO pilots are more expensive than officer pilots. A sgt is on ~£34k and Fg Off on ~£31k. FS and Flt Lt pay are pretty much comparable and MACR can earn more than a Flt Lt. The RRP(F) is exactly the same for Officer pilots as it is for NCO pilots. So over a 20 year period the NCO pilot is more expensive - especially when you add on the cost of cheaper quarters and free uniform issue!

Myth busted?

[banterbus]

but won't have half as much fun.

As for pensions - a PA spine level 35 pension as a Flt Lt is equivalent to top rate Wg Cdr gusting Gp Capt but without all the crap:ok:

"without all the crap"? Really?! :=

You also have to do 18/20 years before even being eligible right?! Bringing the PAS entry requirements earlier in one's fg career would surely help current manning issues*? Would certainly alter my current decision making.

*RAF FL is 100% manned :ugh:

[Four Turbo]

OP. Still thinking? I hope that wannabees do not in fact get through IOT without a certain commitment. How then is yours going to survive a tent on ***moor in the cold and dark?
And then you get shouted at! Give someone else the chance.

[[email protected]]

"without all the crap"? Really?! all things are relative - certainly compared to Sqn Ldr, which must be the worst rank in the RAF for quality of life - saw so many disillusioned over the years.

Professional responsibility (Sqn TrgO/Standards/CFS agent etc) far preferable to sitting at the downhill end of the sh*t pipe from Wg/Force/Gp HQs:ok:

[MPN11]

Gosh! Thanks, LJ ;)

[Al-bert]

all things are relative - certainly compared to Sqn Ldr, which must be the worst rank in the RAF for quality of life

so you never made Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr then Crab? :=:rolleyes:;)

[Ricorigs]

Everyone has a story and a preference for what to do and where to live but ultimately you sign away your life to do as you’re told for a life that elsewhere you can only dream of.

OP I think you need to really question why you wished to join in the first place. Doubts are normal I certainly had mine but:

It is a team sport. Military life in general and aviation is no different.

You’re to be an Officer. You’ve got to convince someone at somepoint to put themselves in harms way. Whatever the service you’re in.
You’re also to manage their careers, try and help improve their lives and if necessary tell them to take a bite of a very deep **** sandwich. This admin you refer to is your responsibility. If you aren’t interested in that, quit now.

No offence but you seem to be in the right service for you to make the best of it. I think Army training may have forced your hand by now. (Body armour going on for abuse for that one.)

It was easier 10 (ahem) years ago because there were big wars on. You trained and you went there. Nowadays we are deployed all over but there is no huge central warfighting effort. Aviation is feast and famine, when you’re going somewhere you’ll fly a lot more than 15hrs per month or less than 10hrs because you are no longer the priority.

It is a rewarding life, you have mundane anywhere but only here can you do some truly cool ****!

[Bigbux]

OP. Sorry if this is a bit blunt - but you seem to have got all you want out of the RAF and clearly have no burning desire to join, or the backbone to take a decision on your own.

You could fail IOT.

You could fail basic flying training.

You could fail advanced flying training.

You could fail OCU.

You could get binned from your first operational sqn.

I wouldn't bet on just walking into a ground branch either as they started to get selective some years ago.

Go get yourself a civvy job, buy a house, mow your lawn. I don't think you would like detachment life. Or prove something.

[[email protected]]

so you never made Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr then Crab? Al-bert - a few of us had a choice, stay as spec aircrew with a good chance of promotion to Sqn Ldr or stay as Flt Lt and take PA spine.

It was a no-brainer since the money was better on PA spine and it was all pensionable. Combine that with a transfer to AFP05 pension terms (more money again and better death in service benefits) and there was absolutely no reason not to.

Just got to stay breathing until 65 to get my second gratuity:ok:

[Bladdered]

This thread has really kept me amused at lunchbreaks - I think he is a Walt/Journo, was tempted to respond in the spirit of many of you but in the end concluded, he was not worth the venom. I'm chilled now, 28 years man and boy and I enjoyed every minute of it even the Whitehall warrior bit.

[MPN11]

Whatever the motivation of the OP, at least he/someone has had an insight. If you dare buy the DM, you may find an article later ;)

And in Whitehall I actually achieved a few things, albeit not at M 0.9/FL360/Fox1 ;)

[Melchett01]

all things are relative - certainly compared to Sqn Ldr, which must be the worst rank in the RAF for quality of life - saw so many disillusioned over the years.

Professional responsibility (Sqn TrgO/Standards/CFS agent etc) far preferable to sitting at the downhill end of the sh*t pipe from Wg/Force/Gp HQs:ok:

He didn't quite say it was the worst rank, but during CAS' briefing at ICSC he did say he thought it was one of the hardest ranks. From what I've seen, the real disillusion seems to be with many Gp Capts I've come across. Having slogged their way up the greasy pole, they find that in the shrinking military the Stars have reached down and nabbed the goodies for themselves leaving the Gp Capts scrabbling round in the remnants of a Command / senior staff appointment for something to make the previous 25 years effort worthwhile.

[nipva]

Aevu,
I have been following this thread with a mixture of irritation and sympathy. My irritation stems from ypour apparent diffidence and lack of commitment over taking this step whilst I am sympathetic to anyone agonising over such an important decision. It is not surprising therefore that the replies that you have attracted have fallen into two distinct camps, the give it a go you have nothing to lose lobby versus the don't waste your and others time.
So let me address the commitment issue by way of a start. Forget the 'rigours' of and your aversion to IOT. I agree that it will probably be uncomfortable, aggravating and downright childish at times. Just regard it as a hoop that you have to jump through in order to achieve your goal. If you genuinely want to be an RAF officer and pilot you will easily rise above it. I am more concerned at your current lack of commitment. You will need to have determination and total self-belief to negotiate the various and increasingly challenging phases of flying training. I spent several years training prospective fast-jet pilots in their latter stages and those without commitment were soon apparent to we instructors and thus were unlikely to get much support. On the other hand those totally determined but struggling would be encouraged and helped throughout.
I do sympathise with your apprehension but if it doesn't feel right, don't do it. I do not subscribe to the give it a go lobby. Without your determination to be a pilot you may well not succeed and thus will be wasting precious years of your early life. It is however a wonderful life and how anyone can compare the satisfaction of flying a military fast jet with being a systems monitor in a civil people carrier is beyond me. If your concern is over job satisfaction have no fears. The pluses far outweigh the minuses and such 'minuses' as to where bases are located etc are trivial in comparison.
So, how much do you want it? I rather suspect from such things as your concern over IOT, pay, base location etc not that much but I may be judging you harshly. If you are keen to succeed, people will generally want to help you but indifference is a no-no. You should by now, hopefully, have had enough feedback from us here to make your decision.

[banterbus]

Nip,

I'm not sure that location is as trivial as those of old will assume it to be; I completely understand the principle behind why you say that (vs flying upside down and at M1.2+), but the reality I feel is a little different?

aevu is likely to be much like a lot of guys and gals arriving on the FL these days - early 30s, married, a lot with kids. Gone are the days where the majority of OCU grads are mid-20s, single and living in the Mess, therefore location could be considered to be more important.

Either way, when considering the age of most OCU grads currently (on FJ anyway), doesn't bode well for those wishing to climb the promotion ladder, where some are Wg Cdrs at the same age of some that others are in their first FL tour! Probably a different thread altogether! As a grad one's ability to attain the higher ranks is very difficult!

BB.

[MPN11]

As a grad one's ability to attain the higher ranks is very difficult!
Is it not also still the case that "The Chosen Ones" are identified and fast-tracked at an early stage? To generate a CAS requires two tours max (one Op/Exec and one Staff) in each rank (one at 1*) otherwise there's insufficient time to climb the ladder, does it not? It was certainly easier when most sqns were populated with fg offs!

[roving]

Being a graduate did not stop Joseph Gilbert's rapid rise to ACM and appointment as Deputy C in C Strike Command followed by appointment as Deputy C in C Allied Forces Central Europe.

[Haraka]

The GD promotional system,in my day at least, certainly seemed to be fixated upon a long term drive to select a future CAS.

Well, that counted me out!

[MPN11]

An infamous "Scottish <insert rank/appointment> officer progressed rapidly, despite being generally despised. Clearly hand-picked at an early stage by his sponsor, although not a great success, I believe. He fell at the last hurdles, mercifully ;)

I worked for it for 2 years ... that was the final nail in my enthusiasm coffin.

[banterbus]

I'm mainly talking about the current climate, not that of the 80's when the training system was probably a bit quicker to complete!

With a money-making company in charge of FJ AFT who only get paid when they produce students (notwithstanding the effect that can have on quality...) and not instructors - I do not see this problem alleviating any time soon!

Agree, IF you get sponsored by the right individual things can change very quickly - unfortunately, IMHO, this can lead to some (not all, I admit) people being picked up who show the right face to the right person at the right time. Can lead to friction with those of a similar generation who have just done their job well without seeking the attention of the senior officers. I'm sure not much has changed here however!

Anyway, apologies for the slight divergence off topic - valid things for a university graduate to be aware of before joining (not that this would have changed anything for me personally).

[Wander00]

MPN11 - you have my sympathy. seems he managed to depart every appointment in time to avoid the roosting chickens

[bandoe]

Aevu,
I remember a broadly similar post was made a good few years ago.

You are in a decent position now to know what the next few years will look like, and to know whether they are worth it for you. These are the best years of your life & whichever path you choose you may regret it.

It would be good if you got your private messaging functionality up & running - you might get further insights & advice. You’re a Pprune probationer & (correct me if I’m wrong but) a few more posts should unlock the PM functionality.

Best wishes.

[c130jbloke]

Be a man and quit.

There are hundreds of kids who would sell body parts for the chance you have been offered, and you post that crap !

Give it up and go find a safe space somewhere.

[roving]

Ian Black was a third generation Royal Air Force pilot. His older brother also served,

In this video he describes his initial reluctance to join the Service preferring to yo be a photographer. His father, later an AVM, had other ideas. In about 1979 he joined the Service.

After training as a Navigator on a short service commission, he flew in the back seat of Phantoms for three years before with a little guidance from family and friends in the Service he switched to a Permanent Commission, and qualified as a fast jet pilot flying Lightnings, Tornado F3s and on an extended exchange tour with the French Air Force, Mirage 2000s. He flew in a number of operations. He retired in 1997.

He is now a pilot with Virgin and publishes books of the many photographs he took whilst flying fast jets.

Ian Black is a former RAF Fighter Pilot with a passion for photography and motorcycles. He began his flying career with the legendary McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom in RAF Germany at the height of the Cold War. After three years flying “Back set” Ian underwent Pilot Training in 1984-1986 during which time he was awarded prizes for flying ability , aerobatics and unsurprisingly navigation skills. On completion of his flying training Ian was selected to fly the English electric Lightning in the Air Defence Role. Twenty five years earlier, Ian’s father had been one of the RAF’s first Lightning Pilots and his son was set to become the last. Serving on 11(F) Squadron Ian flew 400 Hours on this Iconic Single Seat fighter before the type was replaced with the swing wing Tornado F3.Spending five years at RAF Leeming in Yorkshire Ian flew with 23 (F) Squadron then 25(F) Squadron before returning to 11(F) Squadron . Ian flew the Tornado in the first Gulf conflict as well as the Falkland Islands and participated in Exercise “Red Flag” at Nellis AFB Nevada USA.

After nearly 1200 hours on the Tornado ADV, Ian became only the second RAF pilot to be selected for the prestigious role of exchange officer on the Dassault Mirage 2000 with the French Air Force. Based at Orange in Provence from 1993-1997 Ian took part in operations over Bosnia before deployment on live operations over Iraq on operation “Southern watch”. Ian flew nearly 800 hours on the Mirage 2000 of which 300 hrs were on live Combat missions.

He left the RAF in 1997 and joined Virgin Atlantic Airways where he is currently a Captain on the A340-300 /A340-600/ A330 fleets.

nerDSROnAc4

[Pontius Navigator]

Mea Culpa, in my defence I was working off an IPhone and hadn't time to research BZN; I had only every been at Brize three times IIRC, returning to Cyprus, once to ASI and once back from ASI.