Commander Simon Rawlins RN Pilot's American wife blocked by Home Office

[roving]

18 OCTOBER 2017 • 10:34PM

A decorated Royal Navy pilot nicknamed “Top Gun” has told how his American wife has been left homeless while the Home Office decides whether she can join him in Britain.

Commander Simon Rawlins, 39, said in a letter to The Telegraph that his wife, Marianne, 34, was stuck in limbo after he was posted home from the United States.

Commenting on reports that the military could be deployed to protect the borders after Brexit, Commander Rawlins said: “Perhaps I will be able to join the Home Office in preventing my wife from entering the country.”

The couple met while Commander Rawlins, who clocked up a record number of flying hours in Afghanistan, was posted to the US to support its navy. They have been living together for the past two years.

Previously describing the hair-raising aerial manoeuvres he used against a Taliban stronghold, he revealed how he flipped his Harrier jet upside down while flying up the side of a mountain at more than 500mph to scare off enemy troops.

It meant he flew just 100ft above ground, which is the minimum safe distance, leaving him vulnerable to potential rifle fire.

Mrs Rawlins has applied for a visa but is still waiting for it to be processed after being told her application was “not straightforward” but being given no explanation for the delay. She said she had been left homeless and with few possessions – having shipped most of them to the UK in anticipation of joining her husband.

“I’ve paid $100 for multiple calls and emails and all they [UK Visas and Immigration] do is keep you on the phone for as much time as possible and tell you nothing,” she said.

"To clarify, I’ve joined an online forum where I watch as people from all over the world – including Pakistan and Tunisia – are processed within mere weeks as I wait months.

"There's no accountability, they just won't tell you. I think they're numb to the idea that this actually affects lives and families, they don't seem to know or care."

Mrs Rawlins said the situation had caused her considerable financial damage and as a risk management consultant her business had been jeopardised.

She said: "As a risk management consultant, I have been forced to spend a considerable amount of money on office space and temporary housing solutions to ensure the my business is not viewed as unstable.

"The challenge for me is it's really expensive to live month-to month. I cannot sign a six month lease, which – while expensive – is less expensive than a month-to-month arrangement because I have no way of knowing how long I will be here."

A Home Office spokesperson said: "We are looking into the application made by Marianne Rawlins urgently to seek to resolve the situation as it contained insufficient information to be processed."

'Top Gun' Royal Navy pilot who took on Taliban while flying upside down still waiting to bring American wife home (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/18/top-gun-pilot-took-taliban-flying-upside-unable-bring-american/)

[jolihokistix]

Countless marriages of Brits to non-Europeans have been torn apart recently because of the present regulations. Some credit Theresa May as Home Secretary for the inhuman and illogical impasse.

[jolihokistix]

From our friend Wiki:
Family migration

In June 2012, Theresa May announced that new restrictions would be introduced to reduce the number of non-European Economic Area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area) family migrants. The changes were mostly intended to apply to new applicants after 9 July 2012.[84] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#cite_note-84)
The newly introduced rules came into effect on 9 July 2012 allowing only those British citizens earning more than £18,600 to bring their spouses or their children to live with them in the UK. This figure would rise significantly in cases where visa applications are also made for children. They also increased the current two-year probationary period for partners to 5 years. The rules also prevent any adult and elderly dependents from settling in the UK unless they can demonstrate that, as a result of age, illness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illness) or disability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability), they require a level of long-term personal care that can only be provided by a relative in the UK.[85] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#cite_note-85)
The House of Lords (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords) was concerned about the immegration (sic) issue and therefore addressed the PM in the Parliament as to whether she had examined the impact on communities and families on modest incomes, but it received no direct response.[86] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#cite_note-86) The human rights group Liberty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_(advocacy_group)) concluded that the new rules showed scant regard to the impact they would have on genuine families.[87] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#cite_note-Liberty_briefing-87) The All-Party Parliamentary Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Party_Parliamentary_Group) on Migration conducted an evidence based inquiry into the impact of the rules and concluded in their report that the rules were causing very young children to be separated from their parents and could exile British citizens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_citizen) from the UK.[88] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#cite_note-AAPG_report-88)

[NutLoose]

I agree with her stance, you do not allow all of those EU foreign nationals the immediate right to remain in the UK without first agreeing the same terms for our Expats, otherwise you have lost the bargaining chip to ensure our nationals abroad get the same fair deal as those that are living in the UK, regardless of what Corbyn and his cronies are spouting.. and the fear was always when the None EU nationals had attained the rights to a EU passport in Germany etc, then as EU citizens they could freely travel here.

And for the record I am in favour of those legally here staying, they have built businesses, created jobs and are contributing into the UK pot, it is only fair they should have that right to remain, they came here on the understanding they could legally make the UK their home, you cannot take that away from them.

As for the Commander, I wish him a speedy and happy resolution to his current predicament.

The newly introduced rules came into effect on 9 July 2012 allowing only those British citizens earning more than £18,600 to bring their spouses or their children to live with them in the UK I some how think a Commander in the Navy should qualify for that, it cannot have got that bad ;)

[West Coast]

I certainly feel for the couple, I have to wonder the wisdom of the Commander's flippant remarks however. No need to poke the bear when you need the bear more than the bear needs you.

[Wander00]

Maybe she will deprive a UK National of a job in risk management. I wholeheartedly support this guy and his wife, why aren't MOD Navy batting for him - maybe they are, but does seem being a WASP is a hindrance not a help in such circumstances

[Molemot]

I spent 13 years in the Immigration Service. This sort of thing would not have happened; it appears the Home Office is now staffed by morons.

[Fareastdriver]

Maybe she voted for Trump?

[langleybaston]

In the photo in DTel he is a Lt -Commander.
I realise that the courtesy of Commander is often afforded, but has he been promoted since marrying?

[glad rag]

1. She's not homeless
2. Quote "the situation as it contained insufficient information to be processed."
3. Occams razor ..

[roving]

1. She's not homeless
2. Quote "the situation as it contained insufficient information to be processed."
3. Occams razor ..

I am quite confident that Winston Churchill'd American mother did not experience such difficulties when she married his father.

Incidentally if the lady was an Australian or Canadian she would have experienced the same problems. The Home Office staff processing these applications will have 'refusal' targets.

Even if she gets in and they have children born in England, there is still no guarantee she will not be kicked out at some future date. The newspapers are littered with such stories, and as soon as the facts are published the Home Office backs down.

I firmly believe that a Junior Minister should personally sign off every such refusal or expulsion, then they would be accountable in Parliament for each decision made.

add

Isn\t Prince harry rumoured to be intent on marrying a young American lady?

[roving]

Home Office issues visa to stranded Royal Navy pilot's wife

The Home Office has issued a visa and apologised to the wife of a Royal Navy pilot left stranded in the US while her husband serves in the UK.

Marianne Rawlins, 34, has been granted a UK visa to join her husband, Lt Simon Rawlins, after the UK Visa and Immigration department initially ruled her application was not straightforward and required extra information.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/19/home-office-issues-visa-to-stranded-royal-navy-pilots-wife

As I posted above, the Home Officer behaves once it is in the national press.

[roving]

Sir Julian Brazier, a former minister of defence, welcomed the news, but said that he was concerned that Commander Rawlins had been forced to go through the ordeal in the first place.

“It’s extremely good news that it’s been sorted out at last, but it is extraordinary that Commander Rawlins and his wife was put through all of that.

“It suggests to me that the current visa system is in need of an urgent overhaul. It is simply not right that any member of our Armed Forces should be placed in this situation.”

His comments were echoed by Colonel Richard Kemp, , the former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, who said it was “disgraceful” that the couple had been left in limbo.

“I think it’s disgraceful that a wife of a British serviceman, who is an American citizen, is unable to get access to this country or should be held up like this.”

“He has served his country his entire career, he has put himself in harm’s way - yet people who have done nothing for this country seem to be able to much more freely come and go.”

Exclusive: Wife of 'Top Gun' war hero Simon Rawlins is finally coming home after being granted visa (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/19/exclusive-wife-top-gun-war-hero-simon-rawlins-finally-coming/)

[langleybaston]

“It’s extremely good news that it’s been sorted out at last, but it is extraordinary that Commander Rawlins and his wife was put through all of that".

Waste of education then.

“I think it’s disgraceful that a wife of a British serviceman, who is an American citizen, is unable to get access to this country or should be held up like this.”

Really?

And in the one thread we have rank as Lt, Lt Cdr, and Cdr.

Does nobody engage brain before speaking or writing these days?

[1771 DELETE]

Nothing new hear, the rules have been laid down for at least 22 years that i know of. My wife is american and the hoops are well documented, believe me its a lot easier heading east than heading west.
As a senior officer, pleading ignorance is no defense, i have no sympathy.

[roving]

[I]
And in the one thread we have rank as Lt, Lt Cdr, and Cdr.

Does nobody engage brain before speaking or writing these days?

I actually looked him up on the `London Gazette website. He was promoted to Lt Cdr in 2010.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/59593/supplement/21038

Perhaps he has been promoted again but it has not yet been Gazetted.

All of which is irrelevant to the bullying behaviour of the British Home Office, with its teflon coated Ministers.

[Basil]

Home Office issues visa to stranded Royal Navy pilot's wife

The Home Office has issued a visa and apologised to the wife of a Royal Navy pilot left stranded in the US while her husband serves in the UK.

Marianne Rawlins, 34, has been granted a UK visa to join her husband, Lt Simon Rawlins, after the UK Visa and Immigration department initially ruled her application was not straightforward and required extra information.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/19/home-office-issues-visa-to-stranded-royal-navy-pilots-wife

As I posted above, the Home Officer behaves once it is in the national press.
Good!

There are some people I want in MY country and some I do not.
Does that make me a bad person?
Apparently, for some, it does.

[Two's in]

Alternative Headlines #27

"Shock as country that votes to leave Europe because of lax immigration laws discovers that immigration laws have been tightened"

[Trim Stab]

Good!

There are some people I want in MY country and some I do not.
Does that make me a bad person?
Apparently, for some, it does.


Yep, these are the sorts of people that we are letting in..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/nigerian-gay-rights-activist-aderonke-apata-wins-uk-asylum-claim-13-year-battle

Apparently she has been on benefits for past 13 years.

I say openly that we should welcome white christian migrants from other EU countries, and from commonwealth countries such as NZ and Australia, as the vast majority come to work hard, integrate and make a positive contribution to our country. I also openly say that we should not allow in any migrants from Africa (due to their low IQ, low skills, and difficulties integrating even over several generations), or muslim migrants (due to their refusal to integrate or change their abhorrent customs and lifestyles), because mostly these groups make a negative contribution to our country. Doesn't make me popular with some loonies, I have to admit...

[Raikum]

"I also openly say that we should not allow in any migrants from Africa (due to their low IQ, low skills, and difficulties integrating even over several generations), or muslim migrants (due to their refusal to integrate or change their abhorrent customs and lifestyles), because mostly these groups make a negative contribution to our country. Doesn't make me popular with some loonies, I have to admit..."

Makes you a racist actually as well as talking total and offensive rubbish.

[NutLoose]

Out of interest I thought it wasn't allowed for serving personnel to speak to the press without permission?

[Wander00]

Would it be cynical to comment on how quickly it was sorted once the press, and this thread, had hold of the story

[Tay Cough]

Out of interest I thought it wasn't allowed for serving personnel to speak to the press without permission?

Probably not but I suspect he reached a point where he no longer gave a :mad:

[woptb]

Africans with low IQ,low skills? Blatantly racist & whilst I'm sure you won't absent yourself that post absolutely needs removing.Mods please take action.

[Nige321]

Africans with low IQ,low skills? Blatantly racist & whilst I'm sure you won't absent yourself that post absolutely needs removing.Mods please take action.

Oh get over yourself. Racist my @rse...

[Edmund Spencer]

18 OCTOBER 2017 • 10:34PM

A decorated Royal Navy pilot nicknamed “Top Gun” has told how his American wife has been left homeless while the Home Office decides whether she can join him in Britain.

Commander Simon Rawlins, 39, said in a letter to The Telegraph that his wife, Marianne, 34, was stuck in limbo after he was posted home from the United States.

Commenting on reports that the military could be deployed to protect the borders after Brexit, Commander Rawlins said: “Perhaps I will be able to join the Home Office in preventing my wife from entering the country.”

The couple met while Commander Rawlins, who clocked up a record number of flying hours in Afghanistan, was posted to the US to support its navy. They have been living together for the past two years.

Previously describing the hair-raising aerial manoeuvres he used against a Taliban stronghold, he revealed how he flipped his Harrier jet upside down while flying up the side of a mountain at more than 500mph to scare off enemy troops.

It meant he flew just 100ft above ground, which is the minimum safe distance, leaving him vulnerable to potential rifle fire.

Mrs Rawlins has applied for a visa but is still waiting for it to be processed after being told her application was “not straightforward” but being given no explanation for the delay. She said she had been left homeless and with few possessions – having shipped most of them to the UK in anticipation of joining her husband.

“I’ve paid $100 for multiple calls and emails and all they [UK Visas and Immigration] do is keep you on the phone for as much time as possible and tell you nothing,” she said.

"To clarify, I’ve joined an online forum where I watch as people from all over the world – including Pakistan and Tunisia – are processed within mere weeks as I wait months.

"There's no accountability, they just won't tell you. I think they're numb to the idea that this actually affects lives and families, they don't seem to know or care."

Mrs Rawlins said the situation had caused her considerable financial damage and as a risk management consultant her business had been jeopardised.

She said: "As a risk management consultant, I have been forced to spend a considerable amount of money on office space and temporary housing solutions to ensure the my business is not viewed as unstable.

"The challenge for me is it's really expensive to live month-to month. I cannot sign a six month lease, which – while expensive – is less expensive than a month-to-month arrangement because I have no way of knowing how long I will be here."

A Home Office spokesperson said: "We are looking into the application made by Marianne Rawlins urgently to seek to resolve the situation as it contained insufficient information to be processed."

'Top Gun' Royal Navy pilot who took on Taliban while flying upside down still waiting to bring American wife home (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/18/top-gun-pilot-took-taliban-flying-upside-unable-bring-american/)

"Groan!"
It's kinda what you do isn't it? 100ft AGL is rather high in a real combat environment. Upside down. Of course and pulling 5 or 6 g to keep down and into the next valley. It's what we all do! What's the big deal? (We've all done the A5 Pass!)

[woptb]

Oh get over yourself. Racist my @rse...

Stating people have a low IQ because they come from Africa isn't racism? Your response doesn't demonstrate some higher sensibility, on your part,just demonstrates you're a massive appendage!

[roving]

"Groan!"
It's kinda what you do isn't it? 100ft AGL is rather high in a real combat environment. Upside down. Of course and pulling 5 or 6 g to keep down and into the next valley. It's what we all do! What's the big deal? (We've all done the A5 Pass!)

The article was not intended to impress serving or former service military fighter pilots with the prowess of the pilot's flying ability, it was written to excite wider public interest in the fact that the citizen of Britain's strongest ally, namely the United States, and the wife of a British Officer and Royal Navy fast jet pilot was being denied a visa to live with him in the UK.


The press did a good job. The visa was issued last night.

Incidentally very unusually the story was carried in a number of British newspapers during the course of the day. No doubt the editors recoiled in horror at the incompetence of the Home Office.

But please feel free to tell us more about your personal flying skills and experience. There are threads on this site where such stories are meat and potatoes.

[Nige321]

Stating people have a low IQ because they come from Africa isn't racism? Your response doesn't demonstrate some higher sensibility, on your part,just demonstrates you're a massive appendage!

No, it demonstrates I can think for myself and work out what the OP was actually saying. Read it again....:ugh:

[Chinny Crewman]

No, it demonstrates I can think for myself and work out what the OP was actually saying. Read it again....:ugh:

I read it, read your posts and re-read them. You are both abhorrent racists and there is no place for views like that in modern day society. I hope the mods at a minimum remove your posts.

[woptb]

:ugh: Any number of 'hilarious' emojis wil never make racism acceptable.

[dervish]

feel free to tell us more about your personal flying skills and experience

This kind of trolling has an obvious downside, like the other day when you invited someone to reveal his name, when the whole forum knows he's published a book in his own name. Take a hint. Or take a hike.

[roving]

One of the greatest tributes to both President George Bush senior and junior is that they were completely colourblind.

The most important cabinet office in the US Administration is that of Secretary of State.

George Bush Senior appointed Colin Powell. George Bush Junior appointed Condoleezza Rice. Appointments which helped pave the way for the election of Barack Obama as the next President. Although Bush junior and Obama come from different political parties, they share views on Trump's suitability for that Office including Trump's failure to deal effectively with racism.Views which have both expressed.

See the videos on this 'current' link posted today by CNN.

Bush, Obama blasts will be water off Trump's back - CNNPolitics (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-george-w-bush-presidents/index.html)

[melmothtw]

you do not allow all of those EU foreign nationals the immediate right to remain in the UK without first agreeing the same terms for our Expats, otherwise you have lost the bargaining chip

Not sure how I feel about my wife and son being described as "bargaining chips", Nutloose.

Good!

There are some people I want in MY country and some I do not.
Does that make me a bad person?
Apparently, for some, it does.


I believe that it is your country now, Basil. It certainly doesn't feel like my country any more.

I also openly say that we should not allow in any migrants from Africa (due to their low IQ, low skills, and difficulties integrating even over several generations), or muslim migrants (due to their refusal to integrate or change their abhorrent customs and lifestyles), because mostly these groups make a negative contribution to our country. Doesn't make me popular with some loonies, I have to admit...

Sigh.

[Two's in]

Ooh look, another Brexit thread...

[roving]

Yes. I guess inevitably given the great divide in the United Kingdom. It is, I am afraid, all embracing like an election campaign which drags on for three years, or maybe even longer.

I should probably close off this thread.It has achieved its object.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
you do not allow all of those EU foreign nationals the immediate right to remain in the UK without first agreeing the same terms for our Expats, otherwise you have lost the bargaining chip
Not sure how I feel about my wife and son being described as "bargaining chips", Nutloose.True, but I think you get the gist of what I was saying, you do not stand up and state all foreign EU nationals legally living here have the right to stay in the UK post Brexit and the entitlements that right brings, without first ensuring it is a two way street for those Expats choosing to live abroad, because if you do you would be hanging them out to dry without any safeguards...

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Why is this this guy considered a 'special case' because he is in the military?

The immigration rules for spouses from non-EU countries are perfectly clear. The couple obviously did not undertake the required research and get the paperwork together.. I fully agree that the rules are dreadfully onerous and can be quite stressful for the families.

I am British by birth, have been an expat for a number of years and have a South American wife. We have been married for 9 years, but it makes no difference. We all have to go through the same awful UK immigration rules. I expect no preferential treatment, and neither should he.

[glad rag]

Why is this this guy considered a 'special case' because he is in the military?

The immigration rules for spouses from non-EU countries are perfectly clear. The couple obviously did not undertake the required research and get the paperwork together.. I fully agree that the rules are dreadfully onerous and can be quite stressful for the families.

I am British by birth, have been an expat for a number of years and have a South American wife. We have been married for 9 years, but it makes no difference. We all have to go through the same awful UK immigration rules. I expect no preferential treatment, and neither should he.

》》》EXACTLY《《《

[roving]

If you actually read the Telegraph article word by word, line by line, you will discover that far from expecting to be treated as a special case, they wanted to be treated as an 'ordinary case'. However the Home Office suggested that they required further information without actually saying what further information they required.

Sadly it seems delaying these applications is part of the process of reducing the number of visas issued within any given period.

edit:

as the link to the Guardian article I posted last night makes clear, after the circumstances were written up by several newspapers within hours out of no where the missing information sought by the Home Office was discovered.

A Home Office spokesperson said: “We have received all the information we requested to process Mrs Rawlins’ application and we have today issued her visa. We have also contacted her to apologise for any inconvenience.”

[Trim Stab]

Africans with low IQ,low skills? Blatantly racist & whilst I'm sure you won't absent yourself that post absolutely needs removing.Mods please take action.

wept - it is not racist to state that Africans score low in IQ tests - it is fact proven by countless studies - start here if you want to read further:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

It is also true that North East Asians score higher than Caucasians (most of us on this forum, including myself). Is stating that fact also racist to you?

There are many other differences between the various races on our planet, some of which give competitive advantage to that race. Ever notice how many 100m finalists at the Olympics are black? Or how many NBA or NFL players are black? Do you think it racist to state that black people are better sprinters than white people, because they have more short-twitch muscles than white people?

Coming back to my original point, we should encourage immigration from sectors of the world population that are likely to improve our society. The greatest natural resource on our planet is human intelligence. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong - almost no natural resources but (due to large High average IQ Manchurian Chinese population) very successful countries. Look at Africa - mind boggling natural resources but staggeringly low IQ population so mired in poverty, corruption, cruelty. So let us encourage immigration from countries with high average IQs, and discourage the others.

[kintyred]

wept - it is not racist to state that Africans score low in IQ tests - it is fact proven by countless studies - start here if you want to read further:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

It is also true that North East Asians score higher than Caucasians (most of us on this forum, including myself). Is stating that fact also racist to you?

There are many other differences between the various races on our planet, some of which give competitive advantage to that race. Ever notice how many 100m finalists at the Olympics are black? Or how many NBA or NFL players are black? Do you think it racist to state that black people are better sprinters than white people, because they have more short-twitch muscles than white people?

Coming back to my original point, we should encourage immigration from sectors of the world population that are likely to improve our society. The greatest natural resource on our planet is human intelligence. Look at Singapore and Hong Kong - almost no natural resources but (due to large High average IQ Manchurian Chinese population) very successful countries. Look at Africa - mind boggling natural resources but staggeringly low IQ population so mired in poverty, corruption, cruelty. So let us encourage immigration from countries with high average IQs, and discourage the others.

The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and academic research since the inception of IQ testing in the early 20th century. While tests have broadly shown differences in average scores based on self-identified race or ethnicity, there is considerable debate as to whether (and to what extent) those differences reflect environmental or genetic factors, as well as to the definitions of "race" and "intelligence" and whether they can be objectively defined. Currently, there is no non-circumstantial evidence that these differences in test scores have a genetic component

From the first paragraph of your link.....care to comment Trim Stab?

[Brian W May]

Yep, these are the sorts of people that we are letting in..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/14/nigerian-gay-rights-activist-aderonke-apata-wins-uk-asylum-claim-13-year-battle

Apparently she has been on benefits for past 13 years.

I say openly that we should welcome white christian migrants from other EU countries, and from commonwealth countries such as NZ and Australia, as the vast majority come to work hard, integrate and make a positive contribution to our country. I also openly say that we should not allow in any migrants from Africa (due to their low IQ, low skills, and difficulties integrating even over several generations), or muslim migrants (due to their refusal to integrate or change their abhorrent customs and lifestyles), because mostly these groups make a negative contribution to our country. Doesn't make me popular with some loonies, I have to admit...

Works for me . . . prepare for incoming . . .

[Compass Call]

I wonder, if he had been a rating and not an officer, would his wife have got a visa as quick??

Doubtful.

Rank hath its privileges!

[ihoharv]

If instead of the couple in question - who have my sympathy having gone through immigration & naturalization hoops in my lifetime (joint UK/USA citizen) - we were looking at a UK born Pakistani-heritage muslim British Army NCO soldier with Afghan/Iraq tours notched up, and his new, say, not quite as photogenic Tunisian bride if the Daily Mail readers would have been quite so outraged..? Mr Angry from Purley on the phone?

I suspect not.

[woptb]

Wikipedia the go to source for scientists everywhere,intellectual rigour be damned! Race equates to IQ,a lot of discredited pseudoscientific 8ull5h1t !

[Basil]

If instead of the couple in question - who have my sympathy having gone through immigration & naturalization hoops in my lifetime (joint UK/USA citizen) - we were looking at a UK born Pakistani-heritage muslim British Army NCO soldier with Afghan/Iraq tours notched up, and his new, say, not quite as photogenic Tunisian bride if the Daily Mail readers would have been quite so outraged..? Mr Angry from Purley on the phone?

I suspect not.
We have an ethnically European Australian DiL who has to jump through our hoops and pay a very substantial sum for permission to remain.
If your hypothetical example was genuine then the same rules would apply so no need for outrage.

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Basil, spot on buddy! Every applicant goes through the same prolonged process, there is no evident bias as far as I can see. Military applicants should not be fast tracked, unless they are willing to pay a substantial fee - like the rest of us.

[Trim Stab]

Wikipedia the go to source for scientists everywhere,intellectual rigour be damned! Race equates to IQ,a lot of discredited pseudoscientific 8ull5h1t !

Have you ever set foot in Africa? Go there, your eyes will be opened...

I also suggest you read the full wikipedia article and all the links therein. The evidence that different races have different IQs, as well as different, cranial volumes, different proportions of long twitch and short twitch muscles, different skin colours, different hair textures, different levels of hormones (particularly testosterone) is completely substantiated. It is due to different proportions of Homo Sapien, Neanderthal, and Denisovian DNA in the genetic makeup of modern human beings. Africans are 100% Homo Sapiens, Caucasians about 90% Homo Sapiens and 10 % Neanderthal, NE Asians have a higher proportion of Neanderthal (hence higher cranial volume and higher IQ), and finally Australian Aborigines have the lowest proportion of Neanderthal DNA plus some Denisovian DNA which accounts for their unusually low IQs.

[Chinny Crewman]

Trim Stab.
A read of Wikipedia and the articles and research it cites reveal that your claims regarding Africans are very much unsubstantiated and contested.

That aside I'm really not sure what to make of this;


I say openly that we should welcome white christian migrants from other EU countries, and from commonwealth countries...

Are you going to point me in the direction of another Wikipedia article that says non Christians are somehow inferior? What about black Christians or white Jews are they ok? White Christians from Kenya, I'm not sure where you sit with them?

Or maybe you're just a vile bigot hiding behind the anonymity this forum affords you to spout your poison?

Incidentally I have been to Africa, I have flown operationally with people of various ethnicity, religion and sexuality. I do not recognise your characterisations.

[langleybaston]

This ethnicity thing is very strange. The IQ variations excite great "racist" condemnations and overtones, but we appear to accept that Ethiopians can run the arse off whiteys at long distance, that average penis length does vary with race [unfortunately], that some races are rubbish at swimming, and so on and so on.

So why does IQ excite so much angst? In every professional competitive course that I attended I came second to a Chinese or a Singaporean. I also always lost at table tennis against them.

Fact. Get over it. It is not racist to point to demonstrable truths. Different races have different strengths but we all have to play to our strengths and cover each others' weaknesses. It is a small planet.

The biggest ****s I have known were white. The nicest people I have known were black.

So?

[woptb]

Fair enough on most points,but IQ versus race is very much not,'a demonstrable truth'. It is a highly charged,highly politicised area of research. If your truth is that on average,people of black ethnicity are dumber than whites then so be it. Yes I've been to & worked in Africa. Believe your conflating an argument about intellect & some assertions about African culture to justify a facile argument.

[Chinny Crewman]

Fact. Get over it. It is not racist to point to demonstrable truths.

Langley I can only assume you haven't read the entire thread?
It is not a demonstrable truth that people from Africa have lower IQs, it is very much a contested area as the Wiki article Trim Stab posted points out.
I contend and think most agree with me though that it is racist to say that the only people who should be allowed to enter our country are white Christians from Europe or the Commonwealth.
Your last paragraphs sum up my point nicely. It demonstrates we are all human and individuals with strengths and flaws that have nothing to do with skin colour/religion/nationality etc...

[Basil]

Without challenging any of the points made, I may safely say that one of the pleasantest and competent captains I flew with as FO was ethnically African. He went on to management in a major national airline. He used to post on Prune but haven't seen him for about five years.
In the Far East, we had a black chief training captain in a predominantly white sister airline.

Please don't think I'm 'virtue signalling'; if I had something adverse to say, I'd be equally happy to spout.

[Vendee]

Langley
I contend and think most agree with me though that it is racist to say that the only people who should be allowed to enter our country are white Christians from Europe or the Commonwealth.
Your last paragraphs sum up my point nicely. It demonstrates we are all human and individuals with strengths and flaws that have nothing to do with skin colour/religion/nationality etc...

I agree with you completely. There have been some disgraceful remarks posted here recently.

[Basil]

This is getting good; let's stoke it up a bit:
I previously said that there were some people who should NOT be permitted to enter MY country.
Returning daesh haddies should be taken immediately to prison and thence to a place of execution . . . . .

[Chinny Crewman]

This is getting good; let's stoke it up a bit:
I previously said that there were some people who should NOT be permitted to enter MY country.
Returning daesh haddies should be taken immediately to prison and thence to a place of execution . . . . .

I don't think anyone took offence at your post #17 Basil, I totally agree with you. It was what came after.

[Heathrow Harry]

IMHO skin colour is the absolutely least useful guide to what people are like..............

[Nige321]

If my previous apparent support of Trim Stabs rant upset people then I apologise. His rant was over the top.
Singling out people by colour or country isn't the point. My beef isn't about race, it's about numbers.

Why? When I made a previous comment, I'd just opened a letter informing me of a hospital appointment next February. The previous one was June this year. Nearly 9 months between. My GP has just had 700 extra patients dropped on his books, most of them incomers to the area (and country). The result is anything up to a month to get an appointment. The system can't cope.

Military applicants should not be fast tracked, unless they are willing to pay a substantial fee - like the rest of us.
Why? Surely someone like Commander Simon Rawlins who has put his life on the line for the UK SHOULD have some sort of benefit?

[Wander00]

Which all has tiddly squat to do with aviation of any sort

[Basil]

Have you ever set foot in Africa? Go there, your eyes will be opened...

I also suggest you read the full wikipedia article and all the links therein. The evidence that different races have different IQs, as well as different, cranial volumes, different proportions of long twitch and short twitch muscles, different skin colours, different hair textures, different levels of hormones (particularly testosterone) is completely substantiated. It is due to different proportions of Homo Sapien, Neanderthal, and Denisovian DNA in the genetic makeup of modern human beings. Africans are 100% Homo Sapiens, Caucasians about 90% Homo Sapiens and 10 % Neanderthal, NE Asians have a higher proportion of Neanderthal (hence higher cranial volume and higher IQ), and finally Australian Aborigines have the lowest proportion of Neanderthal DNA plus some Denisovian DNA which accounts for their unusually low IQs.
Does that mean that Hom Sap were less intelligent than Neanderthal but better fighters? So they were better balanced; a bit like comparing IQ and common sense.

[Trim Stab]

Does that mean that Hom Sap were less intelligent than Neanderthal but better fighters? So they were better balanced; a bit like comparing IQ and common sense.

Yes, Neanderthals were more intelligent than Homo Sapiens. Neanderthals had higher cranial volumes (about 1600cc) compared to Homo Sapiens (about 1300cc). There is a strong correlation between IQ and intelligence in human races. Neanderthals were also taller, stronger, had fair skin, and straight hair.

Caucasians have about 5-10% Caucasian DNA and cranial volumes about 1450cc. Japanese/Korean have a higher percentage of Neanderthal DNA and slightly higher cranial volumes than Caucasians (about 1500cc) and also have more Neanderthal characteristics (eg straight hair). Africans have no Neanderthal DNA, which is why they have the smallest cranial volumes of any human race.

Nobody is sure why Homo Sapiens was able to invade Europe and force out the Neanderthals. The old theories that Homo Sapiens were more intelligent have now been discredited. It is thought by some researchers that Homo Sapiens bought with them a disease that they were resistant to - there is some evidence to show that Syphilis arrived in the northern Hemisphere about the same time as Homo Sapiens.

I became very interested in all of this when I moved to Africa about six years ago for work. Having witnessed first hand how utterly stupid the majority are, the selfish, myopic greed of the more intelligent, and seen their total inability to build any sort of functioning society, despite being overwhelmed with natural resources, sunshine, water, fertile agricultural land, I decided that the old theories that we are all descended from inhabitants of the Rift Valley to be highly unlikely.

Political correctness should not make us blind to science. Any disbelievers should just go to Lagos (for example) and see the honking, chaotic, ugly, crassly unjust society that Africans build, totally devoid of any art or beauty, despite having fabulous wealth at their disposal. I don't want these people coming into Europe and messing up our place too. The black people already in the UK still struggle to integrate despite being there now for generations since the 1950s. They are still more likely to drop out of school early, fail to find work, get involved in crime, spend life on benefits, and have more children, than white citizens or asian citizens. And I am also fed up with their failings being blamed on "racism" in British society, and I get particularly angry when our police force - which is the best in the world - is accused of racism. The likes of David Lammy should go to Nigeria and see how the Nigerian police function lol.

[melmothtw]

Wow, just wow.

What about this black person, TrimStab? Is he here "messing up our place"? Dr Johnson Gideon Beharry VC (http://www.johnsonbeharryvc.com/)

[Trim Stab]

Wow, just wow.

What about this black person, TrimStab? Is he here "messing up our place"? Dr Johnson Gideon Beharry VC (http://www.johnsonbeharryvc.com/)


No not at all. Where have I said that all black people are messing up our place? Quite clearly there are some success stories. Beharry is British, and has integrated well, and has done the country a great service. There are others like him, who serve the country well.

However, they are a minority. If you look at crime statistics in UK - black people are proportionally more likely to commit crime. Also, more likely to drop out of school with no qualifications. Less likely to become productive members of society. We have been doing our best for many years in UK to reverse this trend - but it is a difficult battle. I therefore think that we should try to limit the immigration from Africa in order to reduce the burden on our society in the future.

I positively welcome immigration from EU countries (particularly Eastern Europe) as they are generally hard working people. I also wish we could attract immigrants from Japan - wonderful courteous, well educated people who work very hard. Unfortunately Japanese don't want to immigrate to UK due to all the street crime and Islamic terrorism.

It is obviously not very politically correct to make these statements and I realise it is offensive to some people who have been conditioned over many years. But I will say it again - allowing mass immigration from Africa will be a burden on our society for many generations.

[Mil-26Man]

allowing mass immigration from Africa

Where does it say that this is going to happen?

[Trim Stab]

Where does it say that this is going to happen?

It is happening now! About a million have reached Europe over the past few years, mostly young males. In future the problem is likely to worsen - population projections suggest that the population of Nigeria will pass the USA by about 2050 -

Nigeria to surpass the US as world's 3rd most populous country - CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/25/africa/africa-population-growth-un/index.html)

And that'll be about the time the oil runs out in Nigeria too. Mass migration from Africa is already destabilising Europe, and we are not doing enough to stop it. Africans simply cannot function in a modern technologically driven society like ours.

[Basil]

Where does it say that this is going to happen?
Have you had a look at The Med recently?

https://www.voanews.com/a/migrants-surge-from-sub-saharan-africa-into-italy/3264783.html
GENEVA — (2016)
The International Organization for Migration reports a large number of Sub-Saharan Africans, mainly from Nigeria, Mali, Gambia, and Senegal has been arriving in Italy this year. The IOM says most of the migrants are coming from Libya on overcrowded rubber dinghies.

According to the report, at least 170,000 refugees and migrants have crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Turkey into Europe this year — eight times more than the number recorded for the first three months of 2015.

Far-Right group sends ship to Mediterranean to confront 'criminal' rescue vessels and block migrants (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/13/far-right-group-sends-ship-mediterranean-confront-criminal-rescue/)
More than 85,000 migrants, most of them sub-Saharan Africans, have been rescued and brought to Italy this year, with fears that the total could reach 200,000 by December. More than 2,000 have died during the crossing.

[woptb]

My god you actually believe this 5hit :eek:
Its a long-discredited idea: that intelligence is influenced by racial origin.

[Mil-26Man]

Have you had a look at The Med recently?

I have seen the illegal immigration in the Med, which by definition means that no one is 'letting them into Europe'. I guess we could just let them drown (in the context of this shameful thread, I should point out that this last bit is sarcasm on my part).

[Basil]

My god you actually believe this 5hit :eek:
Its a long-discredited idea: that intelligence is influenced by racial origin.
I don't know. Does anyone?
There are PROBABLY different kinds of adaptive intelligence (Hey, that sounds very academic but probably more bull**** than IQ ;))
I understand that, in the heyday of the Zulu, they operated a very effective and disciplined army; bit like the ancient Romans.

[Basil]

I have seen the illegal immigration in the Med, which by definition means that no one is 'letting them into Europe'. I guess we could just let them drown (in the context of this shameful thread, I should point out that this last bit is sarcasm on my part).
Legal-schmiegel, Europe is still being over-run.
What would you suggest we do?

[Basil]

Surprising but, for once, the Brit Government is dropping PC:

British IS fighters 'must be killed', minister says - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41717394)
The "only way" to deal with British IS fighters in Syria is "in almost every case" to kill them, the minister for international development has said.

p.s. I wouldn't suggest that those deadly enemies are unintelligent - would that they were!

[Trim Stab]

My god you actually believe this 5hit :eek:
Its a long-discredited idea: that intelligence is influenced by racial origin.

Amazing how some people are so blinded by political correctness. How would you explain this:

https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

https://books.google.fr/books/about/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations.html?id=KQ4rLiAbHQQC&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

https://books.google.fr/books?id=sZYQAQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_similarbooks

And how do you explain the utter failure of black Africans to build a single functioning country? There is not a single country in Africa that has advanced in any way since independence from colonial rule. All of them have gone backwards - more corruption, worse education system, more social injustice, more wars and social upheaval. And don't blame colonial rule for their problems. They have had long enough to sort themselves out. If you look at that IQ map, you will see that the average IQ in central African countries is around 65. A person of that level of IQ in our society is totally dysfunctional.

To come back to my original point about immigration - we should positively welcome immigrants from all blue and purple countries on that IQ map - and keep the rest out.

[woptb]

Why Africa is in its present state, I don't know. Again you're conflating several arguments to support of your central premise that Black people are less intelligent.
You also keep wheeling out PC'ness,I would use the term common human decency.

Different population groups are exposed to very different environmental conditions, which is why average scores vary. For this reason IQ scores are rising faster in some populations than others (average IQs of Kenyan children were shown to have risen by 26.3 points in 14 years). Similarly, black American IQs are rising at a faster rate than those of white Americans, while Jewish Americans went from having below average IQs at the time of the First World War to having above average IQs now.

Its idiotic to compare the IQs of different populations. When you remove IQ scores from the tool box of the scientific racists, the rest of their case (your case) is demonstrably a pile of 5hite.

[Trim Stab]

Why Africa is in its present state, I don't know. Again you're conflating several arguments to support of your central premise that Black people are less intelligent.
You also keep wheeling out PC'ness,I would use the term common human decency.

Different population groups are exposed to very different environmental conditions, which is why average scores vary. For this reason IQ scores are rising faster in some populations than others (average IQs of Kenyan children were shown to have risen by 26.3 points in 14 years). Similarly, black American IQs are rising at a faster rate than those of white Americans, while Jewish Americans went from having below average IQs at the time of the First World War to having above average IQs now.

Its idiotic to compare the IQs of different populations. When you remove IQ scores from the tool box of the scientific racists, the rest of their case (your case) is demonstrably a pile of 5hite.

The reason Africa is a ****box is that Africans are completely incapable of building functioning societies. Africans (and Australian aborigines) are the only societies in the world that have been unable and unwilling to build an educational system. This is why they are so far behind the rest of the world. Their failure to invest in education is a sign, in itself, of their lack of intelligence. Take a look at Nigeria - fabulous oil wealth. But the likes of Alison Madueke (google her) simply steal billions, meanwhile approx 11 million Nigerian children do not have access to any sort of education whatsoever. How can you possibly argue that such ghastly people are as intellgent as (say) Japanese, who have built a wealthy, equitable, technologically advanced society, with universal free education, universal free health care, very little crime, exquisite art and music, all with very little natural resources? Quite evidently Japanese people are far more intelligent than Africans - to claim otherwise is bizarre.

Excessive political correctness is a great failing in our society. We should be deciding the future of our society based on evaluation of which ethnic groups and nationals should be encouraged to immigrate to make a positive contribution, not on what is politically correct.

If you look at that IQ map, the majority of social problems in the UK stem from allowing immigration from the red and yellow countries.

[Wander00]

As I said earlier, this has what to do with any sort of aviation......

[charliegolf]

11 million Nigerian children do not have access to any sort of education whatsoever. How can you possibly argue that such ghastly people are as intellgent as (say) Japanese, who have built a wealthy, equitable, technologically advanced society

By that logic, all the 150+ IQ kids who left school at 16 because they chose to, are all thicker than all the underwater basket weaving graduates who now have a degree. They have more education, so it must be so. No?

CG

[Basil]

Trim Stab, at least one of the websites you present is a con job.
I would counsel against clicking.

[MPN11]

Trim Stab, at least one of the websites you present is a con job.
I would counsel against clicking.
... as I discovered, when having done the IQ test I was asked to pay $9.99 to see the answer :mad:

[Brian W May]

There are none so blind as those who will not see . . . .

[taxydual]

Watch: Huge brawl breaks out in Uganda's parliament over Presidential age limits (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/28/watch-huge-brawl-breaks-ugandas-parliament-presidential-age/)

[cats_five]

The reason Africa is a ****box is that Africans are completely incapable of building functioning societies.

I suggest that the reason Africa is a mess is because of the damage colonialism did. Pre-colonial there were many highly organised and successful societies that produced among a great many other achievements the Benin bronzes, Great Zimbabwe, the Kingdom of Kush and the Sao culture.

[MPN11]

So the Colonial Powers are to blame, as in the Middle East, for drawing the borders in the wrong places and ignoring Tribal aspects?

So why did the Great African Nations fail so dismally? Do please tell.

[Chinny Crewman]

Amazing how some people are so blinded by political correctness. How would you explain this:


Trim your 3 links all rely on work carried out by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. Their methods and findings have been discredited and condemned by the scientific community. See here;


https://academic.oup.com/esr/article-abstract/19/4/411/496362/IQ-and-the-Wealth-of-Nations-A-Critique-of-Richard?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100121155220.htm

I could go on.

There are none so blind as those who will not see . . . .

Come on Brian open your eyes and read a bit.

As I said earlier, this has what to do with any sort of aviation......

Absolutely nothing, surprised it hasn't been shut down by the Mods!

[MPN11]

....

Absolutely nothing, surprised it hasn't been shut down by the Mods!
because, for good or ill, it's being conducted in a civilised manner. And for some of us, quite enlightening.

As long as we all tread gently, and despite the technical irrelevance, let's let it roll along.

[Chinny Crewman]

So the Colonial Powers are to blame, as in the Middle East, for drawing the borders in the wrong places and ignoring Tribal aspects?

So why did the Great African Nations fail so dismally? Do please tell.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Great African Nations" but if you are referring to the medieval and ancient empires then they fell for the same reasons the Roman Empire fell and the British one. They became too big, unwieldy and impossible to govern.

Regarding the Colonial Powers argument people seem to forget our own history. When Henry broke from Rome we were in state of almost permanent internal conflict over religion, governance and borders for approx 150 years. Many African states have only been independent since the 1950s.

[cats_five]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Great African Nations" but if you are referring to the medieval and ancient empires then they fell for the same reasons the Roman Empire fell and the British one. They became too big, unwieldy and impossible to govern.

Regarding the Colonial Powers argument people seem to forget our own history. When Henry broke from Rome we were in state of almost permanent internal conflict over religion, governance and borders for approx 150 years. Many African states have only been independent since the 1950s.

We were in turmoil and civil war before Henry vii as well.

[ericferret]

I'm not surprised they can't build a nation.

DB Chief engineer Tanzanian Police Air Wing being driven into Dar Es Salaam.

DB, This road is getting worse with potholes.

Driver, That the British's fault.

DB , but the British left 25 years ago!

Driver, They built the roads

DB, ?

Driver, they didn't teach anybody how to repair them


If you can't learn how to fix a pothole in 25 years not much chance of building a country.

[Trim Stab]

Trim your 3 links all rely on work carried out by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. Their methods and findings have been discredited and condemned by the scientific community. See here;


https://academic.oup.com/esr/article-abstract/19/4/411/496362/IQ-and-the-Wealth-of-Nations-A-Critique-of-Richard?redirectedFrom=fulltext

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100121155220.htm

I could go on.



Come on Brian open your eyes and read a bit.



Absolutely nothing, surprised it hasn't been shut down by the Mods!

Chinny Crewman, how do you explain the different cranial volumes amongst races:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_size#/media/File:Brain_Size_Map.png

You can see at a glance that it correlates very closely with the IQ map that I posted elsewhere.

Or do you also deny that cranial volume correlates with IQ, and that the brains of Africans have some magic capacity to have exactly the same capacity as the brains of Chinese, despite being some 20% smaller?

[Trim Stab]

I'm not surprised they can't build a nation.

DB Chief engineer Tanzanian Police Air Wing being driven into Dar Es Salaam.

DB, This road is getting worse with potholes.

Driver, That the British's fault.

DB , but the British left 25 years ago!

Driver, They built the roads

DB, ?

Driver, they didn't teach anybody how to repair them


If you can't learn how to fix a pothole in 25 years not much chance of building a country.

http://i.imgur.com/vDF6B7s.jpg

[Trim Stab]

The reason Africa is a ****box is that Africans are completely incapable of building functioning societies.

I suggest that the reason Africa is a mess is because of the damage colonialism did. Pre-colonial there were many highly organised and successful societies that produced among a great many other achievements the Benin bronzes, Great Zimbabwe, the Kingdom of Kush and the Sao culture.

These societies were not "highly organised" or "successful". There was some minor division of labour, but very little attempt to organise or invest for the future (just as in modern Africa), no functioning legal system, nor educational system, nor scientific curiosity or research. As for their "art" it was crude in the extreme and cannot in any way be compared to the exquisite art, music, architecture, dance that was contemporary in Europe and Asia.

The UK (and other European countries) need to confront this illogical political correctness in our immigration policies. Certain ethnic groups and religious groups are just too expensive and difficult to integrate, and cause problems over many generations. We should absolutely do our best to integrate as best we can those who are already legally here - but just let's stop letting any more in! There is a continual drip-drip articles in the UK press that the failure by UK Afro-Caribbean population to perform adequately in the educational system in the UK is down to racism by the white majority, or that the fact that so many are in prison is due to "racism" by our police force and criminal justice system, or that the latest terrorist outrage by muslim immigrants is nothing to do with the refusal by muslim immigrants to accept our way of life. In my view, this tolerance has proved a failure, and will lead to more problems in the future. If Brexit does happen, it is likely that immigration from the red and yellow countries on that IQ map will increase at the expense of immigration from blue countries, especially if we end up with a racially indignant labour minister in the Home Office such as David Lammy.