BA Cadet Programme

[momo95]

Well here we go folks ...

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/british-airways-cadet-programme-1690-heathrow-airport-london/1708/description/

Fully self funded ... MPL or ATPL

[pollypilot]

There is a diffrerent entry requirement for the MPL & ATPL route

[Chris the Robot]

Seems a bit of a strange one, you'd think that L-3 would be advertising this heavily on their own website but so far I've seen nothing. On the BA website, the supposed link doesn't work at all.

No surprise with the funding method though, unfortunately IAG seem to be clamping down on their funded cadet programmes recently, big reduction in minimum entry standards on this programme too.

Edited: The link is working now working correctly and it has now appeared on the L-3 website.

[thisishomebrand]

Does anyone know what would happen if I applied to this program given I already have an L3 application open with a different airline?

I mean this one is through the BA website, but eventually you would be handed over to L3 for the selection process so thinking two applications are not allowed.

[Abbey Road]

Fully self-funded and candidates get to pay £295 just to get to interview! I am surprised it has taken this long to go down this road, but with the current BA senior executives it was the only way it was ever going to go.

The fact that 2 former BA captains are involved with L3 Commercial Training Solutions is hardly likely to be coincidental:

Robin Glover-Faure - VP Airline Training (http://www.halldale.com/robin-glover-faure#.WecWyq7TWEc)

Colin Rydon - Director of Training (https://www.halldale.com/colin-rydon-fraes)

[EGPF]

MPL Route requires 112 UCAS tarif points while there is no mention for the ATPL route.

Both courses cost exactly the same though: £115,000, MPL is cheaper with EZY but ATPL with EZY costs more.

[wiggy]

... you'd think that L-3 would be advertising this heavily on their own website but so far I've seen nothing. On the BA website, the supposed link doesn't work at all, you'd expect them to get that right.
.

You might want to have another look..the BA jobs site is working fine and there is an imbedded link within that takes you to the L3's own page.

[Diverskii]

Somewhat surprising for people in the company. It was known that any fully sponsored programme wasn't happening but Alex's latest was along the lines of "we should help them but not pay it for them".

I took that to mean some form of loan underwriting or salary sacrifice was on the table. This no assistance at all route is a bit of a kick in the teeth.

Nevertheless, best of luck to anyone who is applying.

[ZFT]

Fully self-funded and candidates get to pay £295 just to get to interview! I am surprised it has taken this long to go down this road, but with the current BA senior executives it was the only way it was ever going to go.

The fact that 2 former BA captains are involved with L3 Commercial Training Solutions is hardly likely to be coincidental:

Robin Glover-Faure - VP Airline Training (http://www.halldale.com/robin-glover-faure#.WecWyq7TWEc)

Colin Rydon - Director of Training (https://www.halldale.com/colin-rydon-fraes)

You info is out of date. Robin is now Acting President of L3CTS

[Chris the Robot]

The fact remains that when they were recruiting for the FPP in one particular year they had over 90 places to offer and couldn't fill them all, they subsequently took on some Whitetails from CTC (now L-3) to make up the numbers. That was with a loan guarantee on offer enabling candidates to apply regardless of personal or family wealth.

I do wonder how many places they have on offer for this particular scheme and whether they will fill all of them if they keep standards where they used to be.

[ManUtd1999]

Another blow for wannabe airline pilots. My particular highlight from the job ad is the 295 fee for an interview, laughably described as "a contribution towards the overall cost of L3 CTS running selection".

I remember a quote on the old FPP website, something like this:
"One of the biggest obstacles is the cost of pilot training. British Airways firmly believes this shouldn't be the case"

My question to BA Recruitment is simply, what's changed? Has BA's moral compass now decided that excluding vast swathes of potential applicants based on their financial circumstances is acceptable? Or has the company decided morals can be put to one side in return for the tiniest drop of extra profit? Neither reflects particularly well on the company.

To be fair to the recruitment team, to some extent their hands are probably tied. Finance is senior managements call and that's that. They didn't have to run a scheme like this though. From the outside it looks like Aer Lingus were also refused funding and they seem to have decided it's best not to run one at all than to ask cadets for 120k. Hats off to them. The previous head of pilot recruitment used to post on here from time to time. He seemed genuinley proud of the FPP (quite rightly) and the social mobility/equality aspect that the loan guarantee provided. I'd love to know his (and other BA pilots) views on this scheme but I imagine it's more than their job's worth...

I still hold out hope that BA might see sense and offer up some sort of funding. The reaction on L3's facebook feed has been overwhelmingly negative/cyanical. It's not unthinkable that the tabloids might see this as a good story either, BA tend to be held to a higher standard than the loco's. There's been no big fanfare with the launch, no real publicity as yet. It's almost as if BA themselves are a bit embarassed by the whole affair.

Quote of the day (stolen from a reply on L3's Facebook post):
"Call me a cynic but what we’re seeing is the total exclusion of most of society into a career that is retreating into the preserve of the rich."

[Abbey Road]

You info is out of date. Robin is now Acting President of L3CTS
My info is copied directly from the website in the links! It doesn't change a thing regarding the gist of my posting. Speak to the person/s responsible for running that website if it bothers you that much.

Has BA's moral compass now decided that excluding vast swathes of potential applicants based on their financial circumstances is acceptable? Or has the company decided morals can be put to one side in return for the tiniest drop of extra profit? Neither reflects particularly well on the company.
The current CEO of BA does not have a moral compass, and he doesn't give a monkey's cuss how it reflects on the company. Profit before anything, because that is how he gets his rewards.

[jockey69]

Eligibility Criteria should have added one more line item..."afford £115,000".

[jockey69]

£115k is worth a A350 rating

[jockey69]

Why? It's just another aircraft:
heck...why buy a Ferrari?...its just another car !

[Officer Kite]

£115k is worth a A350 rating

I presume that was in jest ... no flight training on the planet is worth £115k

[jockey69]

...in this programme

[TheTypicalBrit]

I presume that was in jest ... no flight training on the planet is worth £115k

I mean NASA Astronaut Training probably is, then again it is free. CTC should probably learn from them.

[JumboJet1999]

Quote of the day (stolen from a reply on L3's Facebook post):
"Call me a cynic but what we’re seeing is the total exclusion of most of society into a career that is retreating into the preserve of the rich."

Not strictly true- there's always the good old fashioned self-improver route open to anyone and everyone, just takes a bit more patience and sacrifice, especially if the end goal is to fly for BA and the like.

[joebloggs08]

So BA,

As you can see from people's reactions (including ex and current FPPs) and in my personal opinion as a current FPP, rightful comments, the new BA Cadet Programme is embarrassing to British Airways. There is no doubt that British Airways can no longer pride itself on employing 'the best pilots' when it limits its intake to only those who are wealthy enough to invest in the training.

Maybe it is just me but there seems to be some ambiguous answers flying around. I propose a few very simple questions..

Firstly, does BA realise how many not just successful but highly talented FPP First Officers are currently flying on the line for the airline? Many of which (and all of whom that I know) would not be in their current position was it not for the financial security of the FPP. Quite simply, removing this aspect from the Cadet Programme removes that talent available.
As plainly as can possibly be put, the current FPPs were chosen as the best out of all whom wanted to apply. The new scheme seems set out to take the best out of all whom can afford to apply. i.e. BA recruits the best of the people who can afford it rather than just the best full stop.
So, can BA see and do they agree that this new cadet scheme limits a huge amount of talent from the opportunity of becoming a British Airways pilot?

Secondly, as has been previously stated, not too long ago (FPP era) BA advertised that "one of the biggest obstacles is the cost of pilot training" and that "British Airways firmly believes this shouldn't be the case".
So, how is a talented individual who cannot afford the £115,000 supposed to be able to now pursue a career as a British Airways pilot?

I look forward to hearing any logical answers.

[jxgj]

Anyone know anything about the 'situational judgement test'?

[wiggy]

Man U

My question to BA Recruitment is simply, what's changed?

It's simply what Abbey Road said..these days, and increasingly so after Mr Cruz arrived, absolutely everything in BA has a monetary value attached and just about everything has to be a revenue stream or it will not happen.

The only way under the Cruz/Walsh watch that a pilot training scheme is going to be subsidised is if somebody other than BA finds all the cash (and I suspect BA would want a cut of those funds) .

It is probably no consolation here but it has rightly raised considerable adverse comment in a couple of other on-line "places", one company internal, but that won't change anything...I guess in BA's world if BA pilots feel funding is needed for future colleagues then they should donate some of their own income rather than it coming out of the company pot....something effectively suggested, not completely in jest, by one of our more interesting colleagues....

[parkfell]

The ECONOMICS of this decision will simply bring SUPPLY & DEMAND into play.

Clearly they will get a number of takers, but significantly less than previous numbers.
Ultimately they will need to go into the open market place cover the shortfall from the whitetail brigade, or those already flying.

[A320ECAM]

BA, once a great airline, has tumbled down due to recent IT failures, scrapping their cadet program and having a Spanish CEO who wears a hi-vis jacket in an office environment!

Why anybody would want to pay this absurd amount when you can easily pay £40,000 for a full fATPL is outstanding!

[jockey69]

So BA,

As you can see from people's reactions (including ex and current FPPs) and in my personal opinion as a current FPP, rightful comments, the new BA Cadet Programme is embarrassing to British Airways. There is no doubt that British Airways can no longer pride itself on employing 'the best pilots' when it limits its intake to only those who are wealthy enough to invest in the training.

Maybe it is just me but there seems to be some ambiguous answers flying around. I propose a few very simple questions..

Firstly, does BA realise how many not just successful but highly talented FPP First Officers are currently flying on the line for the airline? Many of which (and all of whom that I know) would not be in their current position was it not for the financial security of the FPP. Quite simply, removing this aspect from the Cadet Programme removes that talent available.
As plainly as can possibly be put, the current FPPs were chosen as the best out of all whom wanted to apply. The new scheme seems set out to take the best out of all whom can afford to apply. i.e. BA recruits the best of the people who can afford it rather than just the best full stop.
So, can BA see and do they agree that this new cadet scheme limits a huge amount of talent from the opportunity of becoming a British Airways pilot?

Secondly, as has been previously stated, not too long ago (FPP era) BA advertised that "one of the biggest obstacles is the cost of pilot training" and that "British Airways firmly believes this shouldn't be the case".
So, how is a talented individual who cannot afford the £115,000 supposed to be able to now pursue a career as a British Airways pilot?

I look forward to hearing any logical answers.

£115k is an Eligibility Criteria like Class1(you can have all the talent in the world but can you fly without a Class1?). Financial Fitness like Medical Fitness.

[Dracarys]

It’s a self-perpetuating problem. People want to fly for an airline so badly they would give up their right arm for the opportunity. Training providers and airlines know this, and take full advantage of it. As unrealistic as it is, if nobody applied for such cadet schemes and nobody went to the big training providers with £100k in their back pockets then airlines and training providers would have to improve their offering. As things stand, though, this will not happen. Indeed, when I went through my training it was only about £85k, so the evidence suggests it’s getting more expensive and more difficult. If it’s now £115k then the cost of the course has increased by about 35% in the space of only a few years, which is clearly an unsustainable increase in the long run.

Nevertheless, for those who can afford it this is still a great opportunity to get into BA and I wish those applying nothing but the best of luck. Once you make it through the whole thing life is pretty good.

[momo95]

I find this interesting, not just about BA but about the industry as a whole.

This effectively sends out the message that to be a pilot, you need cash, a lot of it ... lots and lots of cash (well hello?).

Yes it's nothing new, but in recent times it seemed many big players were taking strides towards changing that, saying it isn't how it should be and doing whatever possible to enable all to apply.

Well it looks like it was 1 step forward and 3 steps back, we've gone back to giving no financial help and the training is now suddenly almost double what it was. We were better 10 yrs ago basically. Even ex ctc/oaa cadets will tell you they paid like 75k ... when they hear today's figures their negative reaction pretty much tells it all.

These schools, one in particular, now seem to be placing themselves as somewhat of a business institution rather than a flight school, i don't know they don't give the feel and presence of a flight school, yes of course all schools are a business ... but it's scary with them. Especially the 'solutions' bit, sounds like an IT firm or something. Flying anyone? ... but this is it.

Anyway as was already said, there is no flight training worth anything close to 115k. I am going through the process myself and am seeing everything involved ... it can be logically deduced therefore that 115k is therefore only going to line the pockets of rich people, and no you won't be included. They trick people into paying it by advertising that somehow only they can make you a very good pilot, dare go somewhere less famous ... oops ... you may not be a good pilot. This is the image they create and feed to the mothers and fathers at open days who understandably only want the best for their children and so will suck it all up and do anything to send little Johnny there.

Although the reality of all this hype was showed up to be the rubbish that it truly is when you had ex business institution cadets going up against modular cadets from one of the multitude of smaller schools around ... and the modular guys were actually getting the jobs. Buyer beware.

[jockey69]

a First Class seat costs a lot more than Economy...do you complain only the wealthy get to fly First Class? BA is BA.

[joebloggs08]

I'm confused as to what you're getting at?

[PilotRoger]

I presume that was in jest ... no flight training on the planet is worth £115k

I believe CTC is around £120k

[JumboJet1999]

Jockey69, what is your point exactly?

[jockey69]

£115k for a BA Front Seat...there is reason to that.

[joebloggs08]

Please, I sit in that seat and still need it explaining to me?

[Chris the Robot]

£115k for a BA Front Seat...there is reason to that.

A combination of supply/demand, desperation and greed.

[ZFT]

My info is copied directly from the website in the links! It doesn't change a thing regarding the gist of my posting. Speak to the person/s responsible for running that website if it bothers you that much.

Not bothered one iota. Just passing on info.

[jockey69]

I'll bite, such as?

the same reasons why a First Class seat costs more than Economy in the same Flight.

[Pizzacake]

Maybe, just to be devils advocate here, BA are effectively leaving that criteria in there to prevent every halfwit who fancies a job applying. It's common knowledge that it costs as much as 120k to get qualified and anyone who has serious aspirations would just look at that figure as something to work towards. It's not an insurmountable amount of money, it's far from easy but it's not impossible and those who are determined will find a way.
This approach may block out a number of applicants but they may have made a judgement call that that's worth doing rather than have 150,000 applications to sift through.
I'm not saying I agree with this, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's part of their thinking.

I would however say that "asking questions" of BA is a waste of time as they answer to their shareholders only, not us forum dwellers.

[wiggy]

Nice idea Pizzacake, like your thinking but trust me there is rarely that much logic involved at BA...it will simply be a case of following the money...( to the detriment of those who can't easily stump up the cash)

[BravoAlphaWhiskey]

£115k is an Eligibility Criteria like Class1(you can have all the talent in the world but can you fly without a Class1?). Financial Fitness like Medical Fitness.

'Financial fitness' is not like medical fitness. It's more like 'financial privilege'. The average person cannot afford this, regardless of how much they want this or how much they've done. Even if they could find it maybe they wouldn't want to because it's unreasonably extortionate.

Big shame really.

[PA28161]

My info is copied directly from the website in the links! It doesn't change a thing regarding the gist of my posting. Speak to the person/s responsible for running that website if it bothers you that much.


The current CEO of BA does not have a moral compass, and he doesn't give a monkey's cuss how it reflects on the company. Profit before anything, because that is how he gets his rewards.

BA/Aer Lingus et al are as you all know part of IAG. IAG is a multinational business group, not just aviation. They have large investment divisions in the USA and globally. Aviation is not a passion with them and they seem to have knocked any sentiments of that out of BA and Aer Lingus too.

The supply and demand for pilots, whatever you think, is heavily weighted to supply, in fact, oversupply, especially at entry level. If you are a cadet with the right stuff (academics, class I, aptitude etc) then all you need is a very fat wallet and /or someone else with a very fat wallet willing to support you. Usually M&D

[jockey69]

'Financial fitness' is not like medical fitness. It's more like 'financial privilege'. The average person cannot afford this, regardless of how much they want this or how much they've done. Even if they could find it maybe they wouldn't want to because it's unreasonably extortionate.

Big shame really.

did everyone get to fly the Concorde ? does everyone get to stay at Buckingham ?whoever said everything is meant for everyone ?

[Jazzer83]

Being an airline pilot must be of the only professional careers that is only accessible based on your ability to pay and nothing else like natural ability or desire.

I applied to the fully sponsored BA scheme in 2001 however 9/11 scuppered that for me. That is the type of scheme BA and others should be running opening the career up to everyone regardless of their or their families wealth or lack thereof. .

I believe that the industry can only suffer in the long run due to the trend for cadets to fully fund themselves. Imagine the same scenario for potential medical students etc. It can only be described as a disgrace and wholly unfair.

[Pizzacake]

Clearly we are from two different worlds as it most certainly is an insurmountable amount of money where I'm from.
Also, it doesn't cost 120k to get qualified. There are certain schools who charge that fee, but it certainly does not cost that.
Lastly, how does a 115k barrier to entry help filter things? Unless of course you think those with well of parents are all budding geniuses?

It does if you want to qualify from a programme that BA or EZY suggest. Of course you can do modular or use other schools but in this case it's applicable.

I doubt we come from that different a world. I would hazard I'm a bit older than you but through work and a few clever property moves and ultimately to be willing to sell up my home to fund it I'm most of the way there.

I didn't think it was possible til I put my mind to it and looked into what I could do that I started making inroads.

But if your 19 and haven't a decent paying job yet and just want to get straight into things it's not possible, but if your that person you are putting your own barrier up by not being willing to take the long way round.

[wils180]

soooo utterly unreasonable finance barriers aside.. how are people finding the application process?

[Northern Monkey]

I'm guessing most people are finding it fairly straight forward .... because of the utterly unreasonable finance barriers.

I know a gentleman would never ask, but to those who are considering this scheme. How exactly are you planning on funding it? Are there really people out there who can lay their hands on £115,000 just like that?

[wiggy]

Wasn't there a line in the recent Easyjet series where the under training F/O's Mum said to the training captain "when do I see a return on my investment ?" or something similar....

That's how some of the funding will be done...she obviously didn't see the deal as helping Bloggs achieve his dreams..........

[3Greens]

did everyone get to fly the Concorde ? does everyone get to stay at Buckingham ?whoever said everything is meant for everyone ?

A weird and incorrect analogy. everyone in BA could bid to fly Concorde in the same way as every other airplane
In the fleet. There was no financial test conducted to fly it.
I think I understand what you're trying to convey, that BA can charge more because of its past and its perceived prestige? However, your analogies about Concorde and FIRST are woeful.

[wiggy]

I think I understand what you're trying to convey, that BA can charge more because of its past and its perceived prestige?

Phew...I'm glad you worked it out because I sure was struggling......

At the moment I can sit in the LHS fairly secure in the knowledge that the man/woman in the RHS is best qualfied by virtue of ability/aptitude/ etc to catch my :mad: ups, make up for my deficiencies (including spelling) and if the :mad: hits the fin take over from me.....

In the future I guess those in the LHS ( I'll probably be gone by the time this iteration hits the line) will be able to sit there content in the knowledge that many of those perhaps best suited by means of ability, aptitude, education, to have been in the RHS have been "bumped" right from the get go by those who could pay more...

As you say 3Greens the "analogies about Concorde and FIRST are woeful".

[sudden twang]

Wiggy
Nail on the head

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Joe Bloggs,

As plainly as can possibly be put, the current FPPs were chosen as the best out of all whom wanted to apply.

I am sorry mate, but this statement is simply a load of rubbish!

The FPP candidates were chosen from satisfying a certain criteria. There are plenty of people who I know who applied for the scheme who are very capable, not only academically, but also have the non technical skills to be excellent pilots. Be under no illusion that yourself and your colleagues are the 'best' pilots, because you are NOT. I have flown with plenty of your colleagues and there is a huge range of ability and more importantly attitude through the community of new FPP cadets, some very good and some with a lot to learn about themselves and the art of being a well rounded airline pilot.

I would like to see BA give opportunity to pilots from all different backgrounds, from integrated to modular, to give everyone a fair bite of the cherry. From current communications within the airline this may be on the cards and I really hope it comes to fruition.

[Anunaki]

I hope you are right, some Modular cadets who passed APC's who are equally if not more prepared, the whole "Integrated is best" talk was all marketing to me. If they are an equal opportunities employer, this would be something positive to the industry.

In regards to Joe Bloggs post, I too thought it was a bit pretentious, wasn't sure if he mentioned "BA hiring the best" about five times, just to big himself up or am I just cynical? who knows.

Anyway, the question now is how many applicants everyone thinks they will get this time, in comparison to the old model?

[Vinny91]

Hello to everybody!

I am trying to do the application online for this cadet program.
At the question: "current notice period" what should I put a date? and Salary Sought (£) it means by year or monthly?

Thanks so much for all of your advises !

Good luck to those who apply ;)

[thisishomebrand]

Notice period - do you have a current job that requires you work a number of weeks or months after you resign? If so put that.

Salary - put something reasonable, if it doesn’t specify monthly or annual then I would put annual.

Speaking of salary, does anyone know what pay would be for BA and EasyJet? Just gotta consider it all as part of the mighty debt repayments that I may be fortunate to take on!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Anunaki,

I do too, as there are so many pilots out there from many different backgrounds that are very able and will have a lot to give a lot of airlines not only British Airways.

Of course everyone has a different story to tell about how they got to the flight deck.

I was a modular student, and had been turned down by BA a number of times in the 1990s for sponsorship, being told I was not 'good enough', and followed my own self sponsored route, and 20 years later I find myself in BA as a Captain. So coming from a flying instructor background I have flown with guys from lots of different backgrounds, air force, integrated, modular, and to be honest, it doesn't really matter where these guys come from, its all about attitude. From my time in BA, its the same. I am not gods gift to aviation, however I feel I have the right attitude to the job. I have a lot of time for people with the right attitude. For people who turn up thinking they are gods gift with no respect or regard for the profession, sorry but I don't have much time for that.

[flyingintheclouds]

Bit of a different point to what’s been mentioned so far.
How comes the prices differ between this and the EZY courses?
BA MPL/ATPL =115k
EZY MPL = 109k EZY ATPL = 123k

[ManUtd1999]

I've not noticed much publicity of this scheme by BA yet. None of their well-known (I think even company endorsed) pilots on Twitter have commented either. Does this perhaps point to internal discussions that are still ongoing? Or maybe it's just they know they can't defend the indefensible...

I notice L3 seemingly refuse point blank to justify or even reply to comments related to finance on their Facebook aswell....

[planesandthings]

There has been some comment from a couple of the publicly endorsed pilots, who by the way I have great respect for and should be encouraged. But on their posts the mood was clear to see though from their followers replies, and one of the pilots even deleted their quite upbeat post about the programme, highlighting the embarrassment that this programme is and the need to read it up before commenting about it, it's not even being talked about internally inside the airline outside flight ops, while in the past FPP was shouted from the rooftops!

This is not like the programmes of the old days as a few long serving pilots have suggested elsewhere, this is not even FPP (hence the subtle programme name change to distance it). This is the true reality of our flag carrier today being shown for all, redundancies across the airline, degrading hard product, this style of scheme was only to be expected sadly and deserves all the criticism it is getting, not that it'll make much difference. :uhoh:

[WingsofRoffa]

Anybody know when this application closes? Can't do anything until wednesday!

[Monkeyboy748]

BA, once a great airline, has tumbled down due to recent IT failures, scrapping their cadet program and having a Spanish CEO who wears a hi-vis jacket in an office environment!

Why anybody would want to pay this absurd amount when you can easily pay £40,000 for a full fATPL is outstanding!

Are you referring to the generic modular route? or a specific integrated route?

Is anyone aware of the closing date?

Many thanks.

[TheTypicalBrit]

Anybody know when this application closes? Can't do anything until wednesday!

It's an ongoing recruitment program so there is no deadline, the program will be pulled when the Airline deems fit, similar to Easyjet's program.

[average-punter]

I have no idea why prices for CTC are increasing at a rate which is significantly above the rate of inflation. In the past few years it has risen from just north of 80k to 115k, an increase in 35k over a period of about 3 years. This represents very roughly a 40% increase in costs which is just criminal.

I'm still unsure what underwriting loans actually cost BA. AFAIK no one has ever defaulted or needed BA to cough up. Happily corrected if I'm wrong here.

Another nail in the coffin - no wonder people are embarrassed who work there.

[Chris the Robot]

Most of it will simply be profit and from what I can tell all of the "Big Three" have done the same. To the sort of people who are prepared to remortgage their home it probably won't make a huge difference. In 2006 when prices were about £60k, someone who left school, got a decent job and saved up could probably manage it to afford it by their late twenties.

Like most things, I think it will ultimately change, I think a big question is the timeframe within which that will be the case.

[31Pilot]

Are you referring to the generic modular route? or a specific integrated route?

Is anyone aware of the closing date?

Many thanks.

One of my local flying schools is offering a fast track fATPL for £47k and quoting the same timescales as L3/CTC.

[Rottweiler22]

I was talking with a BA crew just the other day about their Future Pilot Programme. The skipper was a product of it in the 90s, and he commented how it allowed anybody, from any background to have the same opportunity. The standard of applicant was sky-high, and only the absolute cream got through. It’s sad to see this end, and money be the deciding factor.

I remember my old instructor saying that he used to train the old fully-sponsored courses twenty years ago (BA, BMI, etc...), and that if the big schools had a selection as tough as they did back then, only one in ten applicants would get through. Absolutely top notch candidates from all backgrounds. Nowadays there’s the added prerequisite of £115K. That’s a good 50% of applicants out, if not more.

I have no doubt that the selection will be extremely competitive, even with the £115K price tag, so inevitably the most qualified, motivated and best-suited will still get through. It’s a cracking opportunity if you can afford it, so if you can, go for it 110%.

I can’t help but think that from a business perspective, it’s a win-win situation for BA and L3. It’s just the same as the Generation EasyJet scheme. L3 earns a fortune through “assessment fees” from the hordes of applicants there will undoubtedly be, and the fees from the handful of cadets that get selected, as well as the kudos of training BA’s pilots (another logo they can add to their website and brochures to entice more through the doors). BA get a flood of motivated young pilots without spending a penny on training. 19-year-old Little Johnny from Surrey get’s his RHS of an A320 and some ammo for his Instagram account. Everyone’s a winner! Not...

[Reverserbucket]

Originally posted by planesandthings
this is not even FPP (hence the subtle programme name change to distance it).
No, this is not and I understand there is more to it than that. FPP and it's earlier fully sponsored predecessor required at least two non-related ATO's to provide training for quality purposes. CAE no longer train BA trainees and are apparently not part of this 'new' tagged scheme. Read into that what you will.
The bottom line is, BA is a business, accountable to shareholders with a requirement for a technical workforce which L3 - also a business accountable to shareholders, makes a considerable profit from selecting and training, as it does for the other clients it serves. BA have learnt from and copied the Loco's business model in areas of it's own operation (e.g. short-haul). This is just another example in my view.

[Northern Monkey]

I agree with all of this but I don't think that BA can any longer go around shouting about their diversity and equality credentials. If you want to talk the talk you have to walk the walk.

[Reverserbucket]

Based on the premise that you pay more the closer to the front of the aircraft you sit, BA and L£ have simply turned the flightdeck into an enhanced premium product - on one side of the cockpit door loyalty is rewarded by Avios and Executive Club seniority and on the other a secure job, salary and benefits etc. Seriously though, I often see reference made to the old Sponsored Pilot Training Scheme and more recent FPP; both remnants of a once nationalised flag carrier and the latter created by those in the airline who were by and large products of selected and sponsored training in a market where that was acceptable and/or expected. They recognised the quality, professionalism, enthusiasm and loyalty borne out of those schemes over many years. Is this the world we live in today? I ask because if you look at how training is conducted for other EU and Western operators, it is almost without exception purely retail.

Personally I think it's a pity but sadly, airline CEO's tend to consider their pilot workforce as nothing more than a resource and as long as ATO's are able to 'sell' them a solution to maintain this resource, a solution that profits all parties (and it will as believe me, there will be no shortage of young entitled and wealthy (or with access to finance) applicants for this enterprise who will feel they have achieved 'instastatus' in a BA uniform sitting in the right hand seat of an A320), there will be no return to costly financial assistance or incentivisation in favour of the most suitable candidates.

[Drussjnr]

Anyone do the online assessments? How many did you do and what did you think?

[Chris4]

When does this close for applications? I got an email saying final reminder to complete application, but it didn't have deadline?

[Vinny91]

Salary - Enough to cover 115K bank loan :ugh:

haha yha that's true! Thanks for your reply

[Vinny91]

Notice period - do you have a current job that requires you work a number of weeks or months after you resign? If so put that.

Salary - put something reasonable, if it doesn’t specify monthly or annual then I would put annual.

Speaking of salary, does anyone know what pay would be for BA and EasyJet? Just gotta consider it all as part of the mighty debt repayments that I may be fortunate to take on!

Thank you very much for your reply! I applied anyway and I was invited to do an online test to complete within 7 days!

Anyone else in the my same situation? :)

[thisishomebrand]

Is it an automatic that you get the tests? I.e. did you submit and then get the links straight away?

Just trying to think when it would be best to submit so I can make sure I have time for the tests

[DaveBC]

For anyone wondering, once your application is handed to L3 and you're asked to go to their website, you will have to agree to put any other application with L3 on hold in order to proceed.

Yes, it is automatic.

[Drussjnr]

Lmao already got a rejection email hahah.... How many people apply to this? :confused:

[planesandthings]

Wouldn't suprise me despite many still trying to work out how to fund it, applications getting close to tens of thousands like before...L3 have a lot to earn in assessment days!

Did you meet the set down criteria? Considering how keen L3 are to sell whitetail if you fail selection in a tagged scheme generally, you might want to consider at where you went wrong so quickly on the initial test.

[Drussjnr]

To be honest planesandthings, i meet the criteria. I think I screwed up on one of the tests. I wont be going to l3 on a non tagged course, l3 is going down hill. Their marketing cannot cover their cracks forever.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

How do you mean?

[Dracarys]

The evidence suggests otherwise. L3's 2017 Q3 results shows a 6% increase in net sales to more than $2.6 billion. Remember, there's much more to L3 than just a flight school. In fact, the flight school aspect (in terms of their CTC acquisition) is relatively new and only a small part of the company. Personally, I'd feel more confident putting my money on the line with L3 than I would have ever done with CTC.

When I did my Type Rating with CTC I saw both CTC and L3's facilities, and L3 was substantially more impressive. In fact, just a short walk across the sim hall was a nearly-completed full motion Dreamliner sim that they had just finished building and which was due to be shipped off to an airline. :cool:

[Drussjnr]

How do you mean?

Holding pools filling up, quality of fair weather is terrible, class sizes are huge, hidden costs are large at l3 cts, ridiculously high assessment fees and etc

Also profits of l3 mean nothing,

On a side note guys thats all i will say on this topic, lets keep it about the BA cadet program for those guys applying

[shamrockCE96]

Wouldn't suprise me despite many still trying to work out how to fund it, applications getting close to tens of thousands like before...L3 have a lot to earn in assessment days!

Did you meet the set down criteria? Considering how keen L3 are to sell whitetail if you fail selection in a tagged scheme generally, you might want to consider at where you went wrong so quickly on the initial test.

How do you know applications are close to tens of thousands if you dont mind me asking?

Thanks.

[Fostex]

The BA FPP applications weren't in the tens of thousands. At Waterside we were told it was around six thousand for the 2015 intake.

[Hpinder787]

I've got my first assessment day on the 7th November, just wondering if anyone has been to an assessment day already and can tell me how the BA programme assessment differs from the whitetail assessment?

[lpfflyer]

Just filling out an application. What sort of level is the initial numeracy test?

Anyone got any ideas of starting salary? Presumably there is no training bond repayment like under FPP so I'd hope the basic has gone up if we're going to pay back a loan/bank of mum and dad?!

Also just noticed it now says it closes for applications on 6 Nov for anyone else thinking about it. It didn't say this before, so presumably they've still got enough applicants despite the rubbish finances.

[thisishomebrand]

The intial numeracy was 25 questions in 15 minutes and I would say the level of questions was the same as the numeracy test you have to do at the assessment day (if you have ever done this), but you have a calculator. You also have to read info from a table.

If you haven’t done the test at the assessment day it’s unit conversion, how long it takes to cover set distance given a speed etc.

[Alleaida]

What FTO offers this?

[lpfflyer]

Thanks very much. No, I've not done an assessment day before but been practising using Skytest. Some of their questions involve formulas that I've long since forgotten, so that was my concern. I'll focus on the numeracy side of things.

[thisishomebrand]

One that caught me by surprise was the area of a triangle, which is not hard but just wasn’t 100% on the formula.

Just to note it does look like 6th Nov is deadline and if you get put through to L3 it looks like the deadline is the same to fill details on there. Although not sure how it works if you submit to BA on the 6th and then have to do the BA online tests.

Currently Day 1 dates are 3rd Nov or 7th Nov with Day 2 planned for 9th Nov if successful.

[Chris4]

How long did it take to get put through to l3?

[thisishomebrand]

How long did it take to get put through to l3?

About 2 days for me

[DaveBC]

How long did it take to get put through to l3?

About 5 days for me. Applied on the 21st and got a response on the 26th.

I’ve received email yesterday with offer dates for assessment this fri or next Tuesday. Impossible for me to get there tomorrow & Tuesday difficult to! Does anyone know if more dates will be released? Thanks.

Probably. If the closing date is November 6th I doubt the final assessment would be the 7th.

[high_fly]

Hi guys,


Just completed my application. Got an email to complete online tests.
What type of questions at initial assessments on numerical reasoning? Which were the hardest type? :confused: Any help appreciated. All the best.

[DaveBC]

Attended stage 1 today and they provided some more information on the scheme. There will be assessments continuing through to December, and if needed, January and February. BA are looking to recruit 100 cadets but no word on whether the MPL and ATPL routes will have caps. The MPL route does require a higher standard all round, but you will be offered the ATPL if you fall just short. Stage 2 is group exercises and an interview with L3. Stage 3 is another round of group exercises, 2:1 interview and a capacity assessment conducted by BA.

I received an email to confirm my result for the day at 17:05, an hour and a half after completing the assessments. The day consists of a mental maths test and a verbal reasoning test, followed by a numerical reasoning test and PILAPT.

My tips for anyone looking for advice:

Mental Maths: 25 multiple choice questions in 12 minutes. Practice on the CEBGlobal page they email you. Learn shortcuts to avoid having to work out the whole answer. Time is a real constraint for this test.
Verbal Resoning: Practice on CEBGlobal. 36 questions in 20 minutes. Time wasn't an issue. Didn't find this particularly difficult. Involves reading some information and answering questions based off the information given.
Numerical Reasoning: Very much identicle to LatestPilotJobs(LPJ )maths test but 15 questions in 15 minutes. No calculator.
PILAPT: Identicle to LPJ. Found myself extremely prepared.


I can post my average scores from LPJ if anyone is interest to try and gauge difficulty of the PILAPT tests.

[Dracarys]

Did they give any indication when the first of those 100 cadets will be starting at BA Dave?

[DaveBC]

Hi guys,


Just completed my application. Got an email to complete online tests.
What type of questions at initial assessments on numerical reasoning? Which were the hardest type? :confused: Any help appreciated. All the best.

I can't remember everything but it is GCSE level and includes topics such as exchange rates, bodmas, solving equations, ratios, basic trigonometry, fractions, percentages.



Did they give any indication when the first of those 100 cadets will be starting at BA Dave?

First start date for training is March 2018. Assuming the plan on the L3 website is accurate, training will take 18 months so my guess is that cadets will be flying in roughly September 2019.

[b_jones7]

Anyone who went to stage 1 application process, what was everyone wearing? Smart casual, suit, normal casual...?

[high_fly]

Thanks Dave for your reply, so there is only Maths test of 25 questions in 15 min at initial stage consist of above, Do you know if Any verbal reasoning test at initial stage too?

Best of luck Mate.

[Chris the Robot]

I'm surprised that they split the maths/aptitude tests and group exercises/interview over two assessment days, unless they are charging for those days separately. From what I know, the maths test takes about twenty minutes, followed by the aptitude tests which can't be any more than an hour. Can't see the reasoning tests taking any more than a couple of hours combined. Group exercises I reckon should be about an hour maximum too.

Could easily put that into a morning followed by an afternoon of interviews.

[thisishomebrand]

Are the questions in the mental maths test identical to the CEGlobal numerical reasoning test or slightly easier (like the maths test you do online for the application?)

[Diving_Aviator]

Chris the Robot

Because only stage 2 (maths/assessments) are charged for. By splitting them, you can get lots of people paying through that stage of assessments. If they were grouped together, it would take up far more personnel time to put that many people through.

They would have made £12000 alone on a stage 2 assessment day because they can have 4 slots of 10 people, paying £295 each.

[ManUtd1999]

Do they charge 295 regardless of whether you make it to the interview bit (Stage 3)? 295 to take a maths test is pure profiteering on L3's part. It would appear that they and BA have lost all shame on that front.

I was at PCL yesterday but nobody from BA Recruitment was there (except a few line pilots who were mainly representing the schools). I expect they didn't have the guts to face a slew of questions asking about finances....

L3 didn't have much info to add that isn't online although tbh, once they confirmed there is no financial support available, I kind of lost interest. They're not even pushing BBVA or other loan products any more. If you haven't got access to 100,000+ in cash or the ability to re-mortgage a property off your (your parents) own back then the general message is that training at one of the "Big 3" schools isn't for you.

[DaveBC]

Anyone who went to stage 1 application process, what was everyone wearing? Smart casual, suit, normal casual...?

In my group there were 7 people. 5/7 wore suits. I went smart casual as I didn't feel a suit was necessary for looking at a computer screen. Wear whichever you feel more comfortable with.

Thanks Dave for your reply, so there is only Maths test of 25 questions in 15 min at initial stage consist of above, Do you know if Any verbal reasoning test at initial stage too?

Best of luck Mate.

25 questions in 12 minutes (paper based) and then 15 questions in 15 minutes (computer based). Yes, verbal reasoning follows the numerical reasoning. Consists of 36 questions in 20 minutes.


Are the questions in the mental maths test identical to the CEGlobal numerical reasoning test or slightly easier (like the maths test you do online for the application?)

I'd say the same difficulty as CEBGlobal. It is the same company, SHS, who supply the practice and actual test. You will be really pushed for time for the mental maths - it is designed to do this.

[VariablePitchP]

Anyone who went to stage 1 application process, what was everyone wearing? Smart casual, suit, normal casual...?

I’m afraid I disagree with the previous answer - of course you should wear a suit!!

You’re applying for your dream job that you could feasibly do for all of your working life, if you still don’t think that’s important enough to wear a suit then that’s a concern.

Absolute worst case scenario when you are wearing a suit is you take the jacket off, worst case scenario when you underdress is you don’t get the job based on your appearance.

At these sort of assessment days you will stand out if you go in casual clothes and I guarantee the other candidates there will notice and think you’re mad!

[Anunaki]

VariablePitchp is spot on! Honestly it makes me cringe some of the things I read on pprune. You wear smart causal when you meet your friends, if I’m assessing you and you show up without a tie, I’ll send you home. I know that the school will put in their report to the airline , what you were wearing. This is an adult job in mature industry, it goes without saying that you should act and look as such. Remember that British Airways wants you to be an ambassador for their brand, and they want to see someone with high personal standards.

[thisishomebrand]

25 questions in 12 minutes (paper based) and then 15 questions in 15 minutes (computer based). Yes, verbal reasoning follows the numerical reasoning. Consists of 36 questions in 20 minutes.

So are both the numerical and verbal reasoning paper based tests? As in circle the answer or something like that?

[DaveBC]

So are both the numerical and verbal reasoning paper based tests? As in circle the answer or something like that?

Apologises, the mental maths and verbal reasoning are paper based, which involves filling in circles (scantron answer sheets). Numerical reasoning (15 questions in 15 minutes) is computer based and follows the mental maths and verbal reasoning.

[Hpinder787]

I thought numerical reasoning would be totally different to the LPJ maths test since the LPJ maths test is purely mental maths, did numerical reasoning not include reading off charts, tables and answering questions etc?

[Anunaki]

Just got the email inviting me to assessment at L3. Does anyone have any recommendations for websites to use to practice for the verbal reasoning, maths reasoning and pilot aptitude tests? So far I've been looking at Skytest, Latestpilotjobs and pilotaptitudetest. Would prefer just spending money on one of the websites as they're all quite pricey.

Mate, the LPJ gauge is good, and is not as expensive as the other ones. If you have a week or more to prepare, try to put at least 2 hours per day. If you feel your maths skills aren't up to scratch, I recommend more time. Also look at Vedic math tricks on youtube, it will help you with fast calculations.

Research a list of pilot core competencies and TDODAR, use it during the group exercises. Make sure you let everyone talk but have your inputs too. You want to seem balanced. Interviews, research the STAR technique to answer competency based questions.

Make sure you put points across with enthusiasm and show your passion for the job.

Also, wear a sharp suit and look the part. British Airways is all about brand, you need to show them that you care about your image and that you will represent them well when you put on that shinny Julien McDonald uniform. Put life aside until then and prepare as if you have the means, it is a good opportunity.

[average-punter]

Not arriving in a suit would be committing interview suicide.

[Osirrell]

Good afternoon all.


anybody done any online assessments today and had results? I did my Maths this morning but not heard anything, was within half an hour for my SJT.


Good luck all

[taylorstewart46]

DaveBC

Have you heard back from L3 regarding the next stage - heard interviews could be as early as this coming Thursday? Also do you know if the 100 cadets they are looking to take are entirely from this programme or whether they are also tagged Whitetail cadets?

[JenniferC245]

Hi, i'm just about to start the online assessment, anyone have any details with exactly it entails?

[DaveBC]

Yes I have, I heard back within 1.5 hours of finishing my assessment. And yes the first stage 2 is Thursday.
To me it sounded like 100 cadets from this program. They didn’t mention white tail.

[thisishomebrand]

Apparently BA recently took 30 from the whitetail hold pool and they are quoting 100 cadet spots as available.

[high_fly]

Hi All,


After completing online assessment and providing invited for stage2, Is it possible to choose assessment dates suitable to me? or do I have to go with the dates they suggested? Best of luck to all.

[Osirrell]

Hi, i'm just about to start the online assessment, anyone have any details with exactly it entails??

Hi Jennifer, from my experience I did the SJT which is just some general questions about things like , if this happend which of the following would you do.
After that I did the Maths assessment. I found this tough on time as it's been a while since I've been in school etc. You have 15mins to answer 25Qs its basic maths but just little time.

Im yet to have any further assessments/emails/requests.

Good luck

[kfitz100]

They told us that they only open one date at a time, and release another date once that one is full (to ensure there is enough candidates at each event). If you cannot make the date suggested, another one will likely be opened shortly.

[SpeedBird92]

For anyone wondering, once your application is handed to L3 and you're asked to go to their website, you will have to agree to put any other application with L3 on hold in order to proceed.

Yes, it is automatic.

Hi DaveBC, don't suppose you have any other information re multiple applications with L3?
Currently have one live one, due to resit tests end this month/beginning of next, but have just submitted application for BA, havent completed online tests yet.
Don't want to reduce my chances, by picking one over the other... :ugh:
In a bit of a quandary as to how to proceed as obviously end goal is to get a job with a secure and reputable airline...:confused:

Thanks for any further insight! and best of luck!

[taylorstewart46]

SpeedBird92

I was in exactly the same position as you. I had a Whitetail application open and was due to resit PILAPT on the 16th of this month. I transferred this application to the British Airways programme because you have to put your open application on hold in order to submit for another programme. I believe you can transfer results from your BA application if unsuccessful and continue as you were with your old, closed application. However if unsuccessful with BA, you cannot reapply to the BA Cadet Programme for another 12 months. If successful on the Non Technical and Technical BA assessment days but not accepted onto the course by BA, L3 may offer you a place on their own Integrated ATPL instead. Hope this helps.

[mattfly1]

Hi Dave, please can you post your scores from LPJ? This would be useful.

[PJ1990]

Hi - many thanks for the very useful information - re the BIB - is it possible to clarify which LPJ test this is very similar to please ? I thought the Maths test on LPJ was more akin to the Mental Maths test rather than Numerical Reasoning which I'd understood was interpreting data from graphs and charts etc


Is anybody willing to share any tips on the 2 dimensional pattern tests as I'm finding these a bit tricky !

[SpeedBird92]

Thanks for your help taylorstewart46!

So as I currently have a live application for another airline with L3, if I were unsuccessful at the BA tests (ie Maths), I'd be able to reopen my previous application and continue from there?
As in if I put an application on hold it doesn't withdraw that application and mean I wouldn't be able to continue it should I be unsuccessful with BA?
Sorry hope this makes sense :)
Appreciate any info or advice as obviously end goal is to be a pilot.

Does anyone know why we aren't allowed to have more than 1 live application at a time? As it may reduce your chances, but also nothing stops someone else from having a live application with another FTO as well as L3... :confused:

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

I rang L3 about this issue. I was told that if I open a BA application then I would be asked to choose which application I'd like to progress and which I would like to close. It seems only 1 application is allowed to be live at any one time.

[DaveBC]

Cirlce and square: medium 94%, hard 81%
Flying boxes: 81%
Shapes and colours: hard 94%
Patterns: medium 100%, hard 88%
Multitask: medium 83%
Math: hard 95.5% (usually done in 24 minutes for 24 questions. Typically scored 100% in the days leading up to the test.)

Hope this helps.

[high_fly]

Can anyone please shed some light on stage 2 BA assessment, i understand there is only one maths test similar as lpj, 12 min 15 questions? Test on verbal reasoning! And then pilapt! Is there any additional numerical reasoning test too eg graphs etc? cheers

[taylorstewart46]

There are 4 parts:
1. Maths - 15 questions in 15 minutes, it’s L3 normal standard and medium/high GCSE level - some conversion questions as well as long multiplication and division.
2. PILAPT - I used Skytest and found it amazing - I felt very prepared.
3. Numerical Reasoning - 25 questions in 12 minutes, you’re very pushed for time.
4. Verbal Reasoning - 36 questions in 20 minutes, again pushed for time but can still complete all.

Hope this helps.

[mattfly1]

Hi Dave, regarding the above, I've been using the numerical reasoning practice test found at from the CEBGlobal URL link provided in the assessment centre invite email to practice the non-calculator maths test. In the practice test on CEBGlobal, it's 18 questions in 25 minutes.

In the actual test for the mental maths, I understand this is the same difficulty as above, but only 12 minutes for 25 questions of a similar difficulty? Also, I understand this part is non-calculator? This seems extremely stretching in the allocated time.

[Chris4]

I'm very confused about the maths testing for the assessment. As I understand it there is:

1. Mental calculation numeracy test. So obviously must be non calculator and would be conversions multiplications etc.? Is this best to practice on lpj or similar?

2. Numerical reasoning, non calculator also. Longer questions where you may need to read off a graph or table etc. Is this similar to the cebglobal test?

I was attempting the cebglobal calculation test thing because I thought it would be a practice for the mental maths and was finding it impossible until I realised you were meant to use a calculator..

[thisishomebrand]

Chris,

1. LPJ and PAT are perfect for practice for the 15 in 15 mins

2. The CEBglobal tests they linked are indeed for those with access to calculators so would say they are tougher than those faced in the actual test. Practice being able to work out which is the correct answer without actually finding the full answer. PAT also has numerical and verbal reasoning that you can practice, arguably more accurate of the level actually faced.

[Dracarys]

The tests that leave you short of time are not designed to be completed in the time limit. Sure, some people may well complete them, but very few will (and even fewer people will get 100% - if any ever will). What they really want to see is your ability to accurately perform calculations under pressure. What they definitely don't want to see is you guessing your way through question after question and only scoring 25%. If you do this then you will fail. Far better to answer 50% of the questions with 80% accuracy than 100% of the questions with 40% accuracy.

Hope it's helpful! :ok:

[Liv18]

Cirlce and square: medium 94%, hard 81%
Flying boxes: 81%
Shapes and colours: hard 94%
Patterns: medium 100%, hard 88%
Multitask: medium 83%
Math: hard 95.5% (usually done in 24 minutes for 24 questions. Typically scored 100% in the days leading up to the test.)

Hope this helps.

Hi DaveBC

Please can you confirm whether the Maths tests are multi choice? The LPJ Maths isn’t but I seem to recall the old CTC Mental Maths being multiple choice?

Thanks in advance

[JackSWeddell]

I have not heard anything for a week since I completed the online assessments.
Does anyone know when the next round of assessment days are scheduled for? My situation is complicated slightly by currently living in France, so I would need as much notice as possible to plan my return.

[DaveBC]

Hi DaveBC

Please can you confirm whether the Maths tests are multi choice? The LPJ Maths isn’t but I seem to recall the old CTC Mental Maths being multiple choice?

Thanks in advance

Both are multiple choice.

[Liv18]

That’s great thank you

[lpfflyer]

I took five days for me to get a response. I'm in a similar situation, also got to come from overseas. I'm back in the UK for Christmas so hoping I can sort it for the week before.

[Chris4]

Thank you for clearing up the situation with the maths tests :)

For people wondering when the next dates are likely to be for 1st assessment day, I called today to ask. Obviously these dates aren't confirmed, but they said from the roster that they might hold selections days on 5th Dec and 11/12th dec

[WingsofRoffa]

I've been invited to take the online assessments. Are there any useful websites to practice similar tests to the online ones?

[Rhondor]

I attended stage 1 assessment in with L3 today in the AM session. I have already received my rejection email.

Disappointing obviously, but I gave it my best shot so I have no regrets. I think it's somewhat unacceptable that no feedback is given, but no point complaining about things you can't change right?

For the aptitude tests, is it a case of meeting a required average? Or if you fail one test you fail it altogether? I think I have a pretty good idea of where I went wrong and I know I definitely failed one of the aptitude tests.

All I can say to those still to attending just keep practising on your tests, as I definitely think you can improve and it's not all a case of "you either have it or you don't" - you definitely can, and I believe the more you put in the more you will get out - but that *usually* applies to anything in life right?

I believe I can still apply to the Generation Easyjet Pilot programme, so I'm going to have another try after working on those areas where I know I need to improve. If I fail the second time, then I will have to have a serious think about whether I should continue trying - harsh I know, but I think it's best to be realistic.

Anyway, enough of me rambling, good luck to those who sat their assessment today, you all seemed very nice. Commiserations to those who didn't get through.

[qbigglesq]

Does anyone know the salary upon employment with BA? How does this compare with FPP salary?

[SpeedBird92]

Hi qbigglesq

A BA co-pilot showed me the different basic pays between FPP and Self Sponsored Pilot (SSP) back in 2016
I believe that Short Haul Co-pilots from FPP were on £24,719 basic and SSP were on £35,926 in their first year and obviously the basic pay increases each year.

Hope this helps as a guide, obviously can't say for certain :)

[wiggy]

Hi just want to check, is the BA cadet program for International or only for UK citizens?

The answer to that question is clearly laid out In the recruitment website - link follows.

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/futurepilot/

[852]

Are the tests people referring to the online assessment immediately post submission of the application? Or actually in person assessment?

If the latter, can anyone shed any light on what is included in the online assessment.

[qbigglesq]

Many thanks SpeedBird92. Excellent memory btw - those are some precise figures!

[Jake24]

wiggy

The program is now closed?

[WingsofRoffa]

Hi qbigglesq

A BA co-pilot showed me the different basic pays between FPP and Self Sponsored Pilot (SSP) back in 2016
I believe that Short Haul Co-pilots from FPP were on £24,719 basic and SSP were on £35,926 in their first year and obviously the basic pay increases each year.

Hope this helps as a guide, obviously can't say for certain :)

Well I'm sorry, but that salary is absolute :mad:

So borrowing;

£115k for training
£30k for living costs over 18 months of training.

You're going to be paying back the best part of £1500 a month... with a salary of only 2500 a month before tax?

Have I missed something...

[VariablePitchP]

30K for 18 months living costs?

You don’t pay any bills except for food and transport. Unless you are literally being driven to the school in a motorcade you should be fine :O

I jest, clearly, but you honestly won’t spend a third of that if you’re even moderately careful. If you try it can be done for about 6K.

[SpeedBird92]

That's just basic though, there's also flight pay to take into account :)

[WingsofRoffa]

30K for 18 months living costs?

You don’t pay any bills except for food and transport. Unless you are literally being driven to the school in a motorcade you should be fine :O

I jest, clearly, but you honestly won’t spend a third of that if you’re even moderately careful. If you try it can be done for about 6K.

Remember, a lot of people that can afford pilot training are those who have equity in a property. After pulling £100k equity from a property they are most likely looking at £1k a month mortgage (or considerably more).

Speedy, what does flying pay tally up to on average?

[Ocanuck]

Hello all,

I completed my app on the 20th and have done the SJT and Maths online assesements so far. Has anyone else had to wait for a couple of days until they receive the third online assessment?

Cheers!

[qbigglesq]

Hi Ocanuck! I submitted on the 20th Nov and have completed my SJT and maths test. Still haven't heard anything back as of yet. Also, as far as I'm aware there is no third online assessment. The next stage for us is a technical assessment day at Dibden Manor.

[852]

Speedy, what does flying pay tally up to on average?

Think it's around £10k ish?

[SpeedBird92]

i heard back a week after completing the online tests :)

[Dracarys]

Think it's around £10k ish?

It depends how much you work (we moved back to an hourly rate rather than a fixed monthly rate earlier this year). Typically flight pay will be around £600-£700 per month on an average month though.

But we also get other Time away from Base payments etc too. An approximate for that is £4 for every hour you are away from base from report until clear at the end of a trip.

So, in addition to salary, an FO at BA on the A32N fleet working full time can expect to earn an additional £1500 per month.

After tax, average earnings for a full time FO starting out year 1 on the FPP is between £2700 and £3000 per month. This excludes the bond repayment, which is an extra £1000 per month. I'm reliably informed that with the new programme the basic salary will be higher to offset the absence of a bond (i.e. the salary scales will be inflated by approximately £12,000 per year).

The salary increases by approximately £5k - £6k per year for the first seven years on the current FPP programme until it catches up with the existing FO pay scales. And typically the scales themselves are all inflated each year by a nominal percentage to offset inflation, so essentially it's two pay rises per year.

[Dracarys]

Other news that may be of interest to some is that BA is considering a new financially sponsored cadet programme in addition to the current new cadet programme. Nothing concrete in terms of a plan, but it's definitely being discussed.

[SpeedBird92]

Hi Ocanuck! I submitted on the 20th Nov and have completed my SJT and maths test. Still haven't heard anything back as of yet. Also, as far as I'm aware there is no third online assessment. The next stage for us is a technical assessment day at Dibden Manor.

Hi qbigglesq

I completed the maths test on the 15th Nov, and heard back yesterday evening.

Hope this helps :)

[planesandthings]

Other news that may be of interest to some is that BA is considering a new financially sponsored cadet programme in addition to the current new cadet programme. Nothing concrete in terms of a plan, but it's definitely being discussed.

Hope this happens, but i'll believe it when I see it with the current way the airline is being run. An unsponsored scheme was hopefully no suprise to many, when BA has been looking to cut costs in multiple areas over the past year.

[Speedbird148]

Other news that may be of interest to some is that BA is considering a new financially sponsored cadet programme in addition to the current new cadet programme. Nothing concrete in terms of a plan, but it's definitely being discussed.

Where did you hear this from if you don't mind me asking.

[wiggy]

One or two in management dropped hints on the company yammer site about future sponsorship/sponsored schemes in response to concerns expressed there about the recently announced L3 scheme....but certainly all I saw they were vague comments along the lines of "looking at things", maybe there is something concrete being planned...maybe.

I have to say I would agree with planesandthings observation and I certainly wouldn't make plans or delay plans on the assumption that BA will definitely be offering some sponsorship in the near future....but I would like to be pleasantly surprised.

[Dracarys]

It's as Wiggy says. I wouldn't make plans based on it either, but the suggestion was that more news will be available by the end of the year, which isn't all that far away now. It will be interesting to see what any new scheme comes along, if indeed any new scheme does come along. I am quietly confident that this is being seriously looked at though. The right people are saying the right things.

Financially it doesn't make a lot of difference to BA as far as I can see. Don't offer a sponsorship and pay a higher joining salary, or offer a sponsorship and pay a lower joining salary. It more or less balances out. :p

[Speedbird148]

Thanks for the update Wiggy and Dracarys. Appreciated.

[downwind427]

I heard from a "well placed source" that the current program is partly a swift interim measure because it takes so long to get a "proper" course like FPP with financial backing agreed internally.

One novel concern is that there will be people who pass the assessments on the current "cadet" program and start without really doing the maths on where they are going to source every bit of approx £130k from (L3 course cost plus typical cost of living). No-one wants to do a hardcore "credit check" on successful cadet applicants - and yet no-one wants people to spend £90k on the course and then be unable to complete when anticipated if there is a wobble in their funding. Really bad for everyone - and more of a potential PR problem for BA than with other programs.

I'm told it's highly likely a FPP-like program will be announced before long.

But in the meantime: if you've got £130k down the back of the sofa, good luck to you!

[mattfly1]

Hi Downwind, who are you referring to when you describe no-one would want to do a hardcore credit check on successful applicants? At the moment, this would most likely be the bank that is remortgaging your house, surely they will be completing a full credit check on the applicant (whether this is the applicant or parent/s)?

[Chris the Robot]

I think an interesting question for any airline wanting to do an FPP-style programme has to be "who's going to provide the loan?" now that BBVA have exited the pilot market and seemingly no-one else wants to enter it with a bespoke product. People can remortgage their own/parents homes with their own mortgage provider however an airline would need a company to provide 50-100 loans all on identical terms, basically a bespoke product.

I do wonder if in future it will be up-front from the airline (i.e. Aer Lingus from recent times) or no funding from the airline at all. Of course, an airline as guarantor may tempt financial firms back into the market.

[Ocanuck]

Hi Ocanuck! I submitted on the 20th Nov and have completed my SJT and maths test. Still haven't heard anything back as of yet. Also, as far as I'm aware there is no third online assessment. The next stage for us is a technical assessment day at Dibden Manor.

Thanks for the info! I guess I must have gotten mixed up with previous posts or information about a third online assessment. Best of luck to you!

Does anyone happen to have a link or resource that outlines the assessments? Would they be the same as the ones for the FPP?

[Dracarys]

Chris the Robot

I think this is a very interesting point. I seem to recall reading somewhere on the internal forums that one of the issues was with ironing out the financial details in terms of sponsorship, among other things. Banks do make the majority of their money with mortgages, and this is basically a small mortgage (BBVA or any other bank could be set to make £30,000+ per cadet in interest). If backed by a powerful company like BA then the only thing I can see completely stopping it from happening is there not being the willpower within the airline to make it happen. Since I don't think this is the case based on what I've read recently, it stands to reason that it's only a matter of time.

Another interesting side-note is that I also believe the other FTOs (such as FTE Jerez) are going to be (or perhaps already are) part of the discussion. The current new scheme appears to be a quick method of acquiring new (and still very capable) candidates. The new new scheme (if it materialises) appears like it's going to target the same diversity as the FPP and perhaps offer other schools as training options. Time will tell, of course... :)

[qbigglesq]

Hi all,

I'm trying to crunch some numbers regarding the funding for this course. Can anyone shed some light on the payment schedule? I understand that it is £115,000 in total, but how is this spread out? If anyone knows the payment schedule for the easyJet scheme that would be useful too as I doubt it would be too dissimilar from this one!

Thanks for all your help.

[DaveBC]

The easyJet payment schedule is on the L3 website.

Training Security Bond – £69,000 (paid in 13 instalments)
MPL Training Fee 1 – £20,800
MPL Training Fee 2 – £19,200

I don't know the details of this but I'm going to guess that it is going to be £5300 per month for 13 months and then the 2 MPL fees for the remaining 5 months or so.

[852]

Completed online assessments over a week ago and still heard nothing. I know it can take several days but thought it might be a tad sooner.

[westend]

Hi Folks,
I just finished my online assessment on the BA site, except I thought there was going to be a questionnaire and a math test.....but mine only had the questionnaire on it....no math test?

Did everyone else do 2 online assessment test on BA site?

[852]

After finishing the SJT there was a 10 or so minute wait until they published the maths test.

[qbigglesq]

Hi everyone,

I've heard on the grapevine that there is no group exercise element in the final stage assessment at Waterside. Can anyone who has completed this stage shed any light on this? As far as I understand, it consists of 'only' a two on one interview and a capacity test. Much appreciated.

[sevenfourtyseven]

This is incorrect qbigglesq. The Waterside assessment has a test, interview & group exercise.

[westend]

Hi Folks,

Wish to ask other candidates which took the BA math test.....

How many questions does BA expect to be done in the 15 mins realistically?

I'm just trying to figure out if 12-15 questions is what is expected out of the 25 questions in 15 mins.

Would truly appreciate other candidates thoughts please.

[Chris4]

I rushed through it and got to q.18 or 19 I think. I imagine that I made quite a few mistakes though.

I failed the assessment anyway but I think that was on the pilapt. I imagine of I'd have only failed the BA maths test & verbal reasoning that l3 would have offered me whitetail?

[FlyingColours1]

Really sorry to hear that Chris, but apply apply apply again, persistence is key!

Has anyone attended / got dates for Stage 3 yet? They said in the presentation at Stage 2 that Stage 3 dates would be from Dec 17 onwards I believe.

Best of luck to those in the hold pool!

[Chris4]

Yeah this was the first thing I've applied for so I'm not too cut up about it.

At the assessment I went to (1st week of Dec) they told us that BA had just held or were about to hold the first stage 3 assessments

[westend]

I'm still waiting for feedback from the 2 online tested which I took mid December. I know there was around of assessments done in December with L3 on behalf of BA, but have not heard of anyone one else selected for the any further L3 selection assessment processing.

[davidtarton]

Hi everyone,

Can people give examples of what kind of questions are on the numerical reasoning test and what kind of maths: is it 2 digit multiplication/devision, percentages, ratios? Also which test batteries are best to use? Skytest, PAT, LPJ?

Many thanks.

[theskylark]

Has anyone attended day 2 yet? How was it?

[high_fly]

Hi guys, People who attended stage 2, Which tests were most challenging? Could you share your thoughts/tips. Best wishes to all!:)

[stupotk]

Hi Smoggy88,

Congrats on getting through to the last stage, I have mine coming up!
When did you have your BA interview? Did they make any suggestion of when you might hear back?

Good luck!

[FlyingColours1]

Congrats to all who have got through!

As far as I'm aware they're still assessing stage 3 at Waterside. I've heard the first training courses start in March. Are you both through on the MPL Programme or ATPL?

[stupotk]

I have applied for the ATPL route due to my A Levels not being quite as good as they should have been!

Having said that, I do think there are benefits to both routes so I am happy with the ATPL route. It would be interesting to see how different the contracts are between MPL & ATPL in terms of employment after training.

Good luck :)

[852]

Does anyone know if you are able to change assessment date once already booked on one?

I'm abroad at the moment and it will be a struggle to get back for the only available date however don't want to risk them filling the course.

[stupotk]

I have seen on previous threads for other programmes L3 have been able to change a date for an individual. You would need to call them or send them an email - you could check with them if they have many assessment dates planned so you can pick a date safely.

[CadetBA]

Does anyone know when more stage 3 dates will be available to book onto? Also who has heard back after doing their stage 3 and how long was the wait?

[stupotk]

Currently on Day 8 since attending Stage 3 - sadly no response.
Hoping it will be in the next few days!

[CadetBA]

More dates have been addded for stage 3. Where do you find the job role and description for the role of first officer with BA?

[Senna22]

For those of you who have attended Stage 2 at L3 - just out of interest, how many assessors:candidates were there in the room for the group exercise? We had 2:7...

[Liv18]

Hi,

I was told at the end January by BA that it would be around 10 weeks before we would hear about course dates as L3 are currently in the process of organising the logistics etc. I have since had an email from BA suggesting arranging my Class 1 as soon as possible, so I’ve booked in at the end of February.

[ManUtd1999]

Just to put this scheme into context, IAG made a profit of 2.2 billion euro's last year.

Funding 50 cadet pilots through training would cost ~0.2% of that profit upfront and in the long term would cost nothing at all once reduced salary is taken into account.

And yet BA/IAG still appear to believe it's acceptable to charge their cadets 115,000.

[C43]

But what if they could spend the 0.2% on CEO's bonus?

[Chris the Robot]

Interestingly, BA are not appearing at Pilot Careers Live LHR in April, so I doubt they have anything to announce regarding funding in the short-term. Indeed the only airline exhibitors there are Easyjet and Flybe.

After recent events there is a glut of qualified Airbus folks available so it isn't any surprise really.

[Groundloop]

And yet BA/IAG still appear to believe it's acceptable to charge their cadets 115,000.

Virtually every other airline think its acceptable as well!

[Speedbird148]

Not heard anything more since the email. I did pose a couple of question i had to the email address but haven't had a response back to those yet. Imagine the direct entry recruitment is taking up a lot of the Recruitment Team's time at present I'm afraid.

[CadetBA]

I got an email saying we would find out 10 weeks prior to the course start date, however since then I haven’t heard anything back from BA. I’m hoping we hear back pretty soon, has anyone got any information that could share regarding the time frame and what the situation is at BA

[Speedbird148]

Anyone heard any news recently about course start dates? With the easyJet scheme closed for applications at L3 hopefully this will free up some more slots.

[cessnapete]

Cadet BA
Should be some movement. Rumour is that BA is at least 100 crews short for planned Summer schedules.

[Speedbird148]

Cadet BA
Should be some movement. Rumour is that BA is at least 100 crews short for planned Summer schedules.

Im not sure that will help with our start dates as they'll be focussed on recruiting to solve the immediate problem rather than prioritising cadets who are 18-24months away from being of any use. I could be wrong though.

[Speedbird148]

That does make sense as they recently opened 320 DEP recruitment. With IAG taking over Monarch slots i'm sure BA's Manpower & Planning is all a bit hectic at the moment.

Out of pure interest, would anyone know how long the wait was for the FPP cadets between initial application and the first course start date?


Further Direct Entry recruitment opened today. Not sure what that will mean for the start of this cadet programme.

[Lawrence2725]

Virtually every other airline think its acceptable as well!

There are signs that things are changing though. Air France and Aer Lingus are both now offering fully-funded training schemes. Hopefully more of the industry will begin to follow suit.

[FlyingColours1]

I rarely post but am constantly looking at the message board for any info I may have missed or developments, so thanks for keeping them coming.

I’m sure there’s a few other successful applicants lurking but not replying too!

Sounds to me like they are hiring experience immediately to fill the current gap, before diverting their attention to us further down the line in the coming months.

I’m still taking no news as good news, though I can’t wait to get started.

[CadetBA]

It’s been fairly quiet over the past month or 2 so thought I would post to see where everyone is at. I had an email at the start of the month stating the course start dates are likely to be Oct/Nov for all cadets. Wondering if others got this same email and if they have heard any more information than this? Any knowledge would be helpful. Thanks.

[Dracarys]

Recruitment is crazy at the moment, so don't worry if you haven't heard anything yet. The recruitment team is working flat out. :) And the outlook for recruitment is still looking strong for the next year or two. Not sure if more progress has been made regarding a funded cadetship. There hasn't been any more news on that front yet (either way) as far as I'm aware. As with almost everything... timeframes for things are very malleable.

[Speedbird148]

Start dates are out. Hope everyone got the route they were looking for :)

[Speedbird148]

It's takeb so long to get just start dates out - a year after the scheme opened!!! Not quite March as they originally claimed. I wonder if any people will have been put off by the long wait. Still no information on location or cost breakdown.

It certainly has been a long and frustrating wait but I think the shortage of pilots for this summer took precedance and hence the delay.

[CadetBA]

Glad to post that I have heard back from BA and L3 regarding course dates and the TSA. Following up from the email I was told which route I was given. Considering they are the same sponsored courses, what do you think will be the main differences between MPL and ATPL? Assuming the MPL will spend more time in the UK, potentially at Gatwick?

Starting 6th November, what course start dates did everyone else get??

[wannabecadet]

Does anyone have any info on the status of the BA cadet programme and when it will reopen?

[dmc222]

Heard from a worker at BA that there may be a chance of a small cadet offer in 2019, but courses won't start until 2020, so I wouldn't hold your breath!

[tariqusher123]

Do you guys know how brexit will affect the BA FPP as well as other programmes? In terms of BA only offering their programne to UK citizens only?

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

I'd go on the assumption that whatever the outcome of all the Brexit stuff, they'll still only take people who have the legal right to live and work in the UK.

This is exactly what they stipulate now, it's just that obviously the criteria of who has the legal right to live and work here may be different after that point.

[Tobias0501]

That would be ideal! You wouldn't happen to know anything more at all? (Just as it's been nearly a year and a half!)

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Nope, don't know anything at all, unfortunately!

I'm really just making an educated guess that anyone with the right to both live and work here would surely be eligible. The questions are more about who may have or not have that right, depending on the outcome of the political shenanigans.

[Tobias0501]

Fingers crossed it is something they do for 2019, would make my year to be able to apply alone, let alone make it through! Or a lotto win could be useful!

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

I really hope they do, too. Many, many of us would not be there now if it hadn't been for the financial assistance in the previous scheme. Hundreds more wouldn't have been there had it not been for the old, fully funded schemes, although that's going back about 20 years!

Fingers crossed for an accessible cadet scheme at some point!

[Tobias0501]

MaydayMaydayMayday Which scheme did you do it under if you don’t mind me asking?

Now i’ve decided i’m going to pursue it, i find i’m getting frustrated at the complete lack of financial services available to someone in my position!

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

FPP, back when BBVA were still doing the loans with BA as the guarantor.

[Cessnaflyer87]

So BA,

As you can see from people's reactions (including ex and current FPPs) and in my personal opinion as a current FPP, rightful comments, the new BA Cadet Programme is embarrassing to British Airways. There is no doubt that British Airways can no longer pride itself on employing 'the best pilots' when it limits its intake to only those who are wealthy enough to invest in the training.

Maybe it is just me but there seems to be some ambiguous answers flying around. I propose a few very simple questions..

Firstly, does BA realise how many not just successful but highly talented FPP First Officers are currently flying on the line for the airline? Many of which (and all of whom that I know) would not be in their current position was it not for the financial security of the FPP. Quite simply, removing this aspect from the Cadet Programme removes that talent available.
As plainly as can possibly be put, the current FPPs were chosen as the best out of all whom wanted to apply. The new scheme seems set out to take the best out of all whom can afford to apply. i.e. BA recruits the best of the people who can afford it rather than just the best full stop.
So, can BA see and do they agree that this new cadet scheme limits a huge amount of talent from the opportunity of becoming a British Airways pilot?

Secondly, as has been previously stated, not too long ago (FPP era) BA advertised that "one of the biggest obstacles is the cost of pilot training" and that "British Airways firmly believes this shouldn't be the case".
So, how is a talented individual who cannot afford the £115,000 supposed to be able to now pursue a career as a British Airways pilot?

I look forward to hearing any logical answers.
Joe... You PMd me but your mailbox is full. Send me a message when you have cleared yours

[parkfell]

Joebloggs08 is quite rightly frustrated as to the latest BA FPP scheme where the beancounters are ruling the roost.
Even with their recent annual accounts as part of IAG they seem unmoved.

There is of course at least one other way to become a professional pilot. The modular route. Start earning, start saving, and those determined to succeed will do so. It will invariably take longer but if it is really what you want to do, you will do it.

An analogy I use: it is like going into the Church, you need to believe in God.

The modular student achieves because they are fully committed. That isn't to say that Sponsored student are not. They have had to jump through a number of very testing hoops to be accepted in the first place. The vast majority are very keen.
You do however get the odd sponsored student who can clearly charm the birds off the trees (interviews etc) but start to loose interest, have doubts etc about being a pilot during the course.

BA will recruit outwith their FPP schemes, but hoop jumping is inevitable.

[WhatShouldIDo]

Hello everyone,

Apologies for getting into crystal ball territory but I was wondering peoples thoughts/opinions as to if this scheme or similar (perhaps Euroflyer?) will ever open again? My long term aim at the moment is British Airways but I think that at least on cadet level I may be better off trying for the easyJet or Wizz programs which seem to be open all of the time rather than waiting for something that may never open. My concern is having an application open with an ATO and then the BA scheme opening with me being unable to apply due to having another open application. Due to other commitments I cannot start until summer 2023 anyways so I have time on my side when it comes to applying however I was just wondering peoples thoughts?

All the best

[balpalover69]

Hello everyone,

Apologies for getting into crystal ball territory but I was wondering peoples thoughts/opinions as to if this scheme or similar (perhaps Euroflyer?) will ever open again? My long term aim at the moment is British Airways but I think that at least on cadet level I may be better off trying for the easyJet or Wizz programs which seem to be open all of the time rather than waiting for something that may never open. My concern is having an application open with an ATO and then the BA scheme opening with me being unable to apply due to having another open application. Due to other commitments I cannot start until summer 2023 anyways so I have time on my side when it comes to applying however I was just wondering peoples thoughts?

All the best


given the current hiring situation and the inordinate amount of people ‘ahead’ of you in the queue, I wouldn’t be too optimistic.

I also wouldn’t enter flight training to become a ‘BA pilot’ either. BA take on as many, if not more pilots externally than they do cadets.

[smoggy68]

Yes agree BA seem to recruit more frequently for DEP