St. Helena-2

[Ddraig Goch]

An updated pdf with Q&A can be found at this link from SHG
http://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Launch-of-Ticket-Sales-for-St-Helena-Air-Sevice-QandA-1-September-2017.pdf

The prices quoted are far too high for the average Saint when jobs are paying £7,700 for a bakery worker or an Internal Auditor for SHG at £8828 or £11034 depending on qualifications ( all per annum.)
Someone on the minimun wage in the UK would get circa. £12700 p.a. approx. for someone over 21.
It is also important to understand that food etc.costs are very much more than in the UK.
For more information about Saint Helena follow these links:

http://http://www.saint.fm/the-independent/

SAMS The Sentinel newspaper - St Helena Island (http://www.sams.sh/L2_sentinel.html)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/560571324116728/ (facebook)

[01475]

Possibly, but no more so (in fact on average less so) than the ferries that Saints previously used to go to their better paid jobs in other places. The real issue of course is how they can get to the Falklands if not via Ascension Island :-(

[Northern Flights]

The updated SHG FAQ note says: "Airlink plan to carry out an engine upgrade in the first quarter of 2018 which will allow the aircraft to be registered to carry 87 passengers on this route."

Any comment on the likely nature of the upgrade?

[lolder]

CF34-10E5A1 engines.

[ORAC]

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/10/lord-ashcroft-a-new-era-opens-for-st-helena-but-there-are-still-major-problems-to-overcome.html

[WHBM]

First schedules start

St Helena: Flights to remote Atlantic island begin at last - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41620003)

[ETOPS]

You can see the aircraft on FR24 on the way to WDH at the moment..

https://www.flightradar24.com/SA8131/f33cce7

[Tomahawk53]

According to the BBC commercial flights to St. Helena from South Africa have at last begun. It makes me wonder what has been done to mitigate the dangerous wind conditions that were originally identified...

[pedroalpha]

I am amazed that as far as I am aware, there have been no comments relating to today’s first commercial flight.
Anyone?

[Green Flash]

BBC 1 news now

[Mister Geezer]

IIRC the first commercial flight was back in May with an RJ85 operated by Airlink but this seems to be the first scheduled flight to HLE.

[ETOPS]

Return flight, SA8132, just airborne now. Hope the crew enjoyed the nightstop - doubt they needed to pay for any "beverages" :D

[01475]

Criminally lazy of the press to carry on referring to HLE as a useless airport when it's now starting to perform the role of what will by February be "one of the most vital airports in the world"!

[Mike6567]

Not sure how they have solved the "wind shear" problem apart from restrictive limits and skill?
Is there a more detailed explanation?

[atakacs]

Not sure how they have solved the "wind shear" problem apart from restrictive limits and skill?
Is there a more detailed explanation?

What else do you need (except for some luck...)?

[parabellum]

Is it more challenging than, for example, Funchal? (or the old Kai Tak with a 700' cloud base? ;)

[Heathrow Harry]

Big error on choosing the airline for the first attepmt TBH - -clear drive to "fly the flag" rather than getting someone who knew what they were doing................

[lolder]

Return flight, SA8132, just airborne now. Hope the crew enjoyed the nightstop - doubt they needed to pay for any "beverages" :D
I would suspect they were urged not to partake of alcoholic beverages on this lay-over.

[lolder]

Not sure how they have solved the "wind shear" problem apart from restrictive limits and skill?
Is there a more detailed explanation?
Apparently Comair the first carrier has a firm policy to always go-around with a windshear alarm. Many carriers do not require a go-around when there are not thunderstorms or frontal passages. The systems were implemented originally because some misguided pilots crashed after flying through thunderstorms on short final. Micro-bursts are really the only events that exceed aircraft performance capabilities. The current St.Helena carrier SA Airlink intends to try to fly through the turbulence. Large control movements on short final are something that's rare in today's "stabilized approach" era. In preparation, the St. Helena route Airlink pilots have been hand flying the E190 all the time except in cruise to get their skills up. A prior ETOPS qualification flight made a lot of landings with the heavy winds which were "eye opening" but they are succeeding. The windshear alerts are ignored and the aircraft wrestled through the turbulence and if the energy is right at the touchdown zone, landed. That's what you get paid big bucks for. The chief pilot and training director are among the qualified Captains on the route. They haven't had to go-around yet.
The E190 can also land downwind where-as the Comair B 737-800 could not on the RESA restricted runway length.

[Mike6567]

Thanks lolder,
This brings back memories of operating to Bermuda in the past with no diversion and just island reserve fuel.
We always assumed if someone got stuck on the runway there was equipment to remove the obstruction - however I think that was wishful thinking.

[WHBM]

Large control movements on short final are something that's rare in today's "stabilized approach" era.
Could the flight not just have been contracted to a carrier which serves Shetland or the Faeroes (or Wellington New Zealand if we want to stay in the Southern hemisphere), where such are everyday events in winter.

[JollyTraveller]

This just looks like huge waste public money.

[atakacs]

Well I think that setting up an air link to St Helena was a commendable project but it could most likely have been achieved on a tighter budget

[pax britanica]

Mike 6567

I lived on Bermuda for 12 years and visited often before and after. Bermuda is under two hours from a US diversion airport /airfield JFK being the nearest aside from Norfolk NAS which i understood would be dire emergency only being military.

Problem with BDA in winter was that it could be a very very long trip from London due to Atlantic winds forcing a very slow journey or massive diversion. One trip I made went as far north as iceland before heading south over Nova Scotia. Of course if it was more of a westerly wind a slow trip a cross the Atlantic arriving over a blocked runway meant more plodding against the wind to get to NY. I think these were problems for the BOAC VC10s and 707 436s but once the 747 and 1011 arrived things improved.

If you did face a blocked runway the USN based at the airport (a USN base itself) had some serious equipment for lifting /shoving ?dragging anything out of the way so you would probably have been Ok

[rog747]

yes would have been rather nice if the first flights had the union flag on the tail but the comair/BA 738 attempt was so flawed -
the 738 was not right for the mission as well known at GIB where they do not operate in there (well not without uneconomical and operational restrictions)

do comair still operate the 733 and 734 and they would probably been OK for HLE?

[OxfordGold]

IF lolder is correct- I'd suggest the RMS is kept in operation for longer.

[lolder]

The E190 is currently the only aircraft available on the used market that has the range and can, in a pinch, land downwind at HLE with the available 6396 ft. of grooved, concrete runway restricted by 240 m. + RESAs to 5036 ft. legal landing distance. The RMS is wearing out and requires massive subsidy exceeding the passenger ticket price.
Single runway remote island airports usually have rules that once an inbound aircraft has reached the point of no return, no other aircraft operations are permitted until the aircraft has landed to make a blocked runway situation very remote. I believe Easter Is. is in this category. The 240-300 m. RESAs at HLE are the cause of most of the problems. If they were 90 m., bigger, more efficient aircraft could operate there. The B-757-200 would be the most economical. Stretched 737s and A320+/- require more runway when they get heavy particularly at maximum landing weights and downwind. I just watched the NG show about the Garuda 737 that touched down 2800 Ft. from the threshold 80 kts. over Vref with only 5º flaps! How does any RESA make an airport safe from pilots like that? He had 21 years with the company.

[Groundloop]

The B-757-200 would be the most economical.

However I very much doubt you would often get the demand for a 757 to carry an "economical" load.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Can a B757 go to places that an A318 cannot go to?

[lolder]

The 757 could carry almost a full payload in and out of St. Helena but the island infrastructure can't yet handle 220 tourists at a shot. The A318 can go more places like London City but it's a lot smaller.

[canberra97]

Could an Airbus 318 make it from St Helena to London non stop! I doubt it as it would definitely need a fuel stop en route and I don't see that happening.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I doubt that anything can launch off St. Helena's runway and make it to LON non-stop without some in-flight refuelling!

The discussion subject is operations between St. Helena and Africa, E190, A318, B757 or whatever.

[ara01jbb]

A 757 would be very interesting if a combi version existed (like KLM's 747-400M). 200+ seats is indeed too much lift, but a combination of passenger and freight would be a more appropriate replacement for the lifeline currently provided by the RMS.

[Wycombe]

Astreaus (as was) had a "combi" 757 (don't think it had a freight door) that was used by Iron Maiden for their World Tours back in the late noughties.

[lolder]

I think there was only one combi with a cargo door made for Nepal and there was mention of a few conversions but I don't know if they actually occurred. The combi could take a standard container. You need the "big" engine 757's for St. Helena because of takeoff runway length. Newer aircraft like A321's probably have lower seat mile costs but need longer runways at high weights.
Namibia is claiming Airlink is using un-negotiated 5th freedom rights with the Airlink intra-airline passenger transfer at WDH. Namibia was an unsuccessful bidder for the service with an A319 and apparently has their knickers in a knot.

[ara01jbb]

Astreaus (as was) had a "combi" 757 (don't think it had a freight door) that was used by Iron Maiden for their World Tours back in the late noughties.

Yes! Thanks for reminding me. G-OJIB. Here's a pic of the rear cargo hold (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Astraeus/Boeing-757-23A/1477492). Now N938FD with FedEx.

[Ddraig Goch]

Sadly, as Lolder has alluded to there are some more problems with the air service because of a lack of communication and understanding between Airlink and the Namibian authorities. See below parts of the article from The St Helena Independent :


A dispute between Airlink and the Namibian aviation authori-ties means the St Helena air service has been significantly changed after only two week’s operation. From tomorrow planes will fly only to Johannesburg. It will be a non-stop flight, the call at Windhoek for re-fuelling and transferring pas-sengers for the connecting Cape Town connection will no longer take place. This change to the air service schedule is expected to continue until Airlink’s dispute about the use of Windhoek’s Hosea Kutako airport is resolved.

Then further on:

On Tuesday a clearer picture started slowly to emerge when The Namibian reported “An SA Airlink aircraft on its way to St Helena Island was temporarily grounded by the Namibia Civil Aviation Authority at Hosea Kutako International Airport on Saturday.” The report further explained, “The flight had come in from Johannesburg on its way to St Helena, but had used its technical stop for refuelling to pick up passengers flown in by SA Airlink from Cape Town for a connecting flight to the British island territory.” Passenger transfers at Windhoek were, we all assumed, a normal procedure which had been agreed by Airlink with the aviation authorities in Namibia. Asit turned out, the Namibian authorities say they have not agreed to anything.

To see the full article go to: http://independent.saint.fm/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/St-Helena-Independent-20171027.pdf

As to the suggestions above about the 757, would it be capable of take off and landing with a full load if not how many passengers? For those who have mentioned passengers and tourist accomadation,many of them will be Saints who will stay with family and friends as of now with the RMS,

There is an explanation re the runways RESAs below which was in the SHG's newsletter from July 2012:


We have finalised a number of important changes to the airport runway design that have the potential to deliver significant benefits for St Helena.
Last November a contract was signed with Basil Read to construct an airport with a 1,550m long landing runway. With this length of runway the largest aircraft that can use the airport are the Boeing 737-700 and Airbus A319, both of which carry around 120 passengers. The runway would also be suitable for new generation aircraft like the Bombardier C series, also with 100 to 120 seats, should these become available in the region.
The 2011 Reference Design for the airport included an Engineered Material Arresting System (EMAS) which allowed us to reduce the length of Runway End Safety Area (RESA) and make considerable savings on the amount of rock that would need to be placed in Dry Gut. At the tender stage, Basil Read offered to construct a full 240m RESA in place of EMAS, at no additional cost to their tender price.
There are a number of advantages to the RESA option. Under the EMAS option, it would be practically impossible ever to extend the runway. The runway construction is based on balancing the amount of excavated material from Prosperous Bay Plain with the amount of rock required to fill Dry Gut. Once the airport is operational, if we wanted to extend the embankment we would have to bring in huge quantities of rock from another site at a prohibitive cost. However, by constructing a full length RESA, we leave ourselves the option of adding EMAS at a later date to allow us to increase the declarable distance, allowing operations by larger Boeing 737-800 or Airbus 320 aircraft, which can carry around 160 passengers. We therefore accepted Basil Read’s offer to construct a full 240 m RESA at the south-ern end of the runway.
In order to accommodate larger aircraft, in addition to increasing the runway length, we also need to do a number of relatively minor works. These include widening the embankment over an additional 40 m at the southern end, paving an additional 100 m of the runway with concrete, providing larger turning circles at the runway ends, and increasing the size of the apron. By spending a relatively small amount to do these works now, while Basil Read has the equipment on island, we can limit future works to the placement of EMAS, significantly reducing the costs of any future extension.
Additional runway works have therefore been agreed. We won't be able to use the additional runway length for landing the Boeing 737-800 or Airbus 320 until further work is carried out to add an EMAS, but it is much more cost effective to do these preparatory works now than it would be in the future.
A variation order to this effect was issued on 17th July. It is expected to carry out this work within DFID's existing budget for the airport. The additional earthworks and concrete will add 12 weeks to the length of the contract. The revised contractual completion date for the project is now 25th February 2016
.

FHSH AD 2.13 – DECLARED DISTANCES 2016
Runway designation,TORA, TODA, ASDA, LDA, (all meters). Remarks
20
1850- 2775- 1850- 1550- DTHR
02
1635- 2425- 1635- 1535- NIL

After re reading the article above I looked at the specifications for the Bombardier CS 3000 ( been in the news lately). It would seem it would provide the ability to carry more passengers than the E195 and possibly some freight as well. Though I think they would have to reduce the load due to the shortest runway length ( why can't they add on the length of the RESA?) Can our anyone advise?

Bombardier CS 3000 (from their brochure)
PERFORMANCE
Range (225 lb. / 102 kg per pax.)
3,300 NM 3,798 SM 6,112 km
Speed
Maximum Cruise Speed:
0.82 Mach 470 kts 541 mph 871 km/h
Normal Cruise Speed:
0.78 Mach 447 kts 515 mph 829 km/h
Takeoff Field Length (ISA, SL, MTOW,Max. Thrust)
Base: 5,000 ft. 1,524 m
Max: 6,200 ft. 1,890 m
Landing Field Length 1 (ISA, SL, MLW)
Max: 4,950 ft. 1,509 m
Base: 4,800 ft. 1,463 m
GENERAL
Flight Crew 2
Same type rating as CS100
Cabin Crew 3 to 5
Passengers
Dual class 130 passengers (36/32 in.pitch)
Single class 140 passengers (32 in.pitch)
Maximum Capacity 160 passengers (29/28 in.pitch)

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'd suggest that smaller aircraft offering more frequent services to be preferable to larger aircraft offering less fequent services particularly taking in to consideration the terrain and weather conditions associated with St. Helena.

So what if the runway may be capable of accommodating B737-800's & A320's, why take unecessary risks if B737-600/700's, A318/319's, Embraers & Bombardiers and whatever can do it just as comfortably and with less risk involved.

But there is a modern day mentality to squeeze as many bums in to one flight as is possible, a local airline to me (Air Philippines) have realised the error of their ways, their Q400's don't have the runway performance to operate to/from a number of airports here so they've needed to go back in time and recommence Q300 operations.

[Heathrow Harry]

The issue is just how many people St Helena can accomodate at a time

Sure in the long run you can increase facilities but nothing happens very quickly there

[lolder]

I'd suggest that smaller aircraft offering more frequent services to be preferable to larger aircraft offering less fequent services particularly taking in to consideration the terrain and weather conditions associated with St. Helena.

So what if the runway may be capable of accommodating B737-800's & A320's, why take unecessary risks if B737-600/700's, A318/319's, Embraers & Bombardiers and whatever can do it just as comfortably and with less risk involved.

But there is a modern day mentality to squeeze as many bums in to one flight as is possible, a local airline to me (Air Philippines) have realised the error of their ways, their Q400's don't have the runway performance to operate to/from a number of airports here so they've needed to go back in time and recommence Q300 operations.
It's much more expensive to use two smaller aircraft. There are two main problems; the first carrier to be awarded the route apparently has an automatic go-around policy after a wind shear alert. Many carriers do not in the absence of thunderstorms and frontal activity.
The second problem is when landing downwind to avoid the turbulence, 1000 ft. of runway at the rollout end is subtracted from the runway because of RESAs. The 6396 ft. pavement becomes 5036 ft. Now this is a scary table top airport with 1000 ft. elevation. Anybody that's relaxed flying in here is crazy. Where does designing a runway to make it "damn fool proof" end.

[Harry Wayfarers]

As a rule of thumb the smaller the aircraft the more expensive per bum on seat it is to operate but a larger aircraft needs to fill with bums on seats.

Based on direct operating costs what is more cost effective to operate, an A318 with an 80% load or an A320 with a 60% load?

[Broken Biscuits]

I've noticed (on StHelenaAirport.com) that the LF radio beacon (NDB) is no longer listed as one of the nav-aids at St Helena Airport. I wonder if it's been switched off or did it just fail and not been fixed?

I guess that not many aircraft using the airport these days would find an NDB useful - but that begs the question, why bother to install it in the first place?

The other mysterious disappearing nav-aid is the Honeywell "Smartpath" GBAS (enhanced satellite nav system) which I believe was installed at probably at least 10 or 20 times the cost of the NDB. I don't know if the Airlink Embraer E190 is equipped to use this system, but it alone might have provided a good approach aid to both runways instead of the LOC/DME system which only covers runway 20.

I see the Honeywell website still says that the system on St Helena is "deploying" - which it has said for at least the last 2 years. So I wonder why that expensive system is not yet in operation? Perhaps ASSI won't approve it - after all it "wasn't invented here"!

[lolder]

It is claimed ASSI has not had the man-power to certify it yet. Scandalous !

[Broken Biscuits]

Google Earth has recently updated its images for St Helena and it now shows the completed airport and access road in some detail. The image date is given as 7th April 2017.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a discrepancy between the image and the underlying terrain model, with the result that the runway appears anything but straight! A similar problem affects the new Ruperts Bay Wharf structure.

However, the terminal buildings etc appear reasonably as you'd expect. You can even see the windsock positions at each end of the runway, although I'm not sure I believe what direction they appear to be streaming in.

You can also see the various nav-aids. To the east of the runway is the NDB and various white blobs which I take to be the GBAS GPS receiving positions.

To the west of the runway you can see the relocated VOR and Localizer antennas. Both of these had to be repositioned to avoid them illuminating the ocean which caused bad multipath problems when the first calibrations were attempted.

[WHBM]

Been running for a few weeks now. What loads ? What reliability ?

have the done the monthly extension to Ascension yet ?

[lolder]

The loads have not been announced and last weeks flight was delayed two days because of low ceilings and visibility. Ascension will be in two weeks. The transfer of Cape Town passengers at Windhoek has been suspended because of Namibian objections and only an outbound fueling stop is made there.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Just looking at the schedule, via WDH is still showing on SA Airlink's website, it is 6.25 hours outbound, 6.00 hours return, 1.25 hours turnaround in HLE and allowing for a 1 hour report that is a Flying Duty Period of 14.5 hours on a 4 sector day, I might be out of date but in my day the maximum FDP in much of Europe, on 4 sectors, was 11.75 hours.

And then they want to do Ascension also, a 6 sector schedule, I don't believe that there is any 'suitable accommodation' on Ascension so where the hell are they going to crew rest or change crew?

[TopBunk]

I'd imagine that there is a crew change in WDH, so one crew does WDH-HLE-WDH as a 2 sector duty day. Would that then allow them to do WDH-HLE-ASI-HLE-WDH as a four sector day?

[lolder]

There is not currently a crew change on the JNB WDH HLE JNB trip. On the JNB WDH HLE ASI HLE JNB trip there will be a layover at ASI and return the next day. The passenger transfer at WDH for CPT connections is not being allowed by Namibia so the flight goes non-stop HLE JNB. The outbound stop at WDH is only for fuel. The plan for diversion from HLE is currently back to Namibia, not an ASI alternate. CPT passengers connect at JNB.

[Broken Biscuits]

As I understand it, there WILL be a stopover for the crew on Ascension Island.

The schedule is as per the normal weekly flight on Saturday, arriving at 1315 GMT on St Helena. The aircraft then departs at 1430 to Ascension, arriving 1630.

It then departs the next day, Sunday, at 1115, arriving back in St Helena at 1315. The return flight to JNB is then a similar time to the normal Saturday one.

As, I believe, the only hotel on Ascension closed recently following the demise of the regular air service, I assume that the flight crew will be accommodated elsewhere. Perhaps the US Base will offer a room or two - or there may be somewhere available in Georgetown, Two Boats or Donkey Plain from the British organizations on Ascension. Failing that, the weather is usually OK for camping!

[Wycombe]

Nice dormitory-style accomodation at "Tristar Village" as I remember!

[Harry Wayfarers]

There are minimum and legal standards of 'sutable accommodation' for crew members, i.e. the accommodation needs to be heated or air conditioned as may be applicable, it needs good curtains to control the level of light and it should be subject to minimum noise etc.

[ara01jbb]

Obsidian Group has indeed been wound up. They operated the only hotel, a bar, a restaurant and had a small fleet of European spec Ford Fiestas for hire. Not sure whether the assets have been mothballed in case the island opens up, but it's bit of a blow.

[Northern Flights]

Extract from recent St Helena Economic Development Committee minutes:

"Items discussed with the Airport Contracts Manager were charter flights & operations and the Open Skies Policy. The Air Access Office and the Airport are fully committed to accepting and assisting developing charter flights & operations subject to the Prior Permission Requirements for the Category C operations being met and the granting of a Flight Operations Permit by the Governor.

There have been several such operations in the 18 months the Airport has been operational.
Due to the stringent Extended Twin Operations Performance (ETOPS) requirements, which requires sterilisation of the Airport and extended airspace for long periods of time, only one ETOPS flight can currently be accepted on any one day. The latter does not apply to 3 and 4 engine aircraft.

As explained in the charter flights & operations paragraph above, the Air Access Office and the Airport will accept, subject to any operational condition, any aircraft capable of operating into and out of St Helena. This, however, is not the same as Open Skies that Europe, the UK and United States have. In reality, at this moment in time, St Helena could not achieve Open Sky Status since it is an Overseas Territory (OT) and subject to the regulations that apply thereto. It would be dependent on the UK Department for Transport (DfT), as the ‘parent’ sponsor to negotiate bi-lateral rights between two points. Additionally, St Helena is not a signatory state, nor can it be, to the ICAO Chicago Convection. We rely on the DfT to represent all the OTs at ICAO.

However, some OTs, like Bermuda and Turks & Caicos, have formed their own Directorates of Civil Aviation. This brings greater independence and the ability to formulate one’s own Civil Aviation Regulations. Doing as above is not a cheap process, is lengthy and will, for several years, require the buying in of appropriate skills, experience and expertise. An aircraft registry such as in Bermuda and Jersey and Guernsey in the Channel Islands can be very lucrative, but the costs, timescale and workload involved cannot be underestimated."

http://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/category/news/

[Heathrow Harry]

"There are minimum and legal standards of 'sutable accommodation' for crew members, i"

Does that apply in South Africa?

[WHBM]

Due to the stringent Extended Twin Operations Performance (ETOPS) requirements, which requires sterilisation of the Airport and extended airspace for long periods of time, only one ETOPS flight can currently be accepted on any one day. The latter does not apply to 3 and 4 engine aircraft.That sounds a nonsense on multiple grounds.

3/4 engine aircraft were never contemplated in the airport development, the B737 was long the aircraft of choice. If there can be only one such flight a day, why did they build such a palatial terminal ?

Surely, even if there is runway sterilisation once an aircraft is on its way, that would only be from it passing some equivalent of a Point Of No Return, which is only an hour or two out, not the whole day.

No other equivalent remote airport, such as Easter Island or those in Antarctica, is required to work this way.

We read above that for a flight to operate it needs to involve the Airport Manager (fair enough), an Air Access Office, and a permit from the Governor's Office. Just how many bureaucrats are involved in arranging a flight, and what do they do the rest of the time ?

[Heathrow Harry]

It's a poor place - everyone is trying to get in on the act and stake out their patch

no doubt in time they'll be more flexible when/if demand picks up

[Harry Wayfarers]

In a previous life I worked for a DC8 cargo operator approached to fly fish from Easter Island to Japan, and Easter Island was surely island reserves arriving there, we couldn't carry fuel to divert to Chile, and we never heard of this sterilising the airport business ... But then how many people on St. Helena have any more than circa 18 months experience of managing an airport?

[lolder]

As a pilot you may not have heard of the no-operations until the inbound has landed unless you were trying to take off from the airport. With island reserves you are committed to landing at that airport and a disabled aircraft on the runway might take more than 2 hours to remove. It may be a more recent rule connected with ETOPs.

[Heathrow Harry]

Invest in a large bulldozer as they used to do to carrier aircraft blocking the flight deck...........

[WHBM]

... But then how many people on St. Helena have any more than circa 18 months experience of managing an airport?
I think that at the moment they haven't even got experience of 18 movements !


It's a poor place - everyone is trying to get in on the act and stake out their patch
This seems to include all the extraordinarily over-cautious actions, one after the other, aimed at suppressing operations there.

As one whose taxes paid a substantial price for this place in an opposite hemisphere, I am getting more than a little fed up with these constant obstructions being put in the way. It's a shame that you can't just roll airport runways up and take them away like a carpet if the messing about and lack of positive thinking goes on for ever. There are plenty of other places who would have welcomed such a runway, all those navaids, and certainly many places who would welcome such a grand terminal.

[01475]

Just to interrupt the flow of err... opinions towards Saints... isn't the airport being managed by South Africans for precisely the reason that they don't have experience of managing an airport?

[Heathrow Harry]

I've heard that St Helena is not an easy place to do business if you are from outside...... to quote a saying about a N Ireland PM in the '60's

"He was born in Ballybog; many wise men have come from there and the wiser they've been the sooner they've come....."

But in this case many of the issues seem to be people in London applying standards that would grace LHR to what is a back country airstrip.............

[Mike6567]

Has anyone got updates on the regularity of the services in and out?

[lolder]

Every Saturday in to St. Helena and out except the second weekend of the month out on Sunday

[Heathrow Harry]

I think he meant is it actually operating to schedule ...

and maybe what do the load factors look like.....

After all the buggering around I expect it will take awhile to build up custom - the sort of people who can afford the trip often plan months if not years in advance

[rog747]

Voyages Jules Verne Holidays in London are now offering package holiday series with a week on St Helena -

[ORAC]

https://www.conservativehome.com/international/2019/07/lord-ashcroft-more-woe-for-st-helena-new-figures-reveal-that-its-airport-has-failed-to-bring-an-influx-of-visitors.html

Lord Ashcroft: More woe for St Helena. New figures reveal that its airport has failed to bring an influx of visitors

[atakacs]

Regardless of the economics is a direct flight from Europe as per Ashcroft's suggestion even feasible?

[Asturias56]

Well that's about 116 a week - I don't have the numbers to hand but that's probably the same as non-military arrivals by air in the Falkland Islands or similar overall. From the article about 70% are tourists - which isn't too bad

There's always a market for adventure tourism, or people ticking off remote spots from their bucket list - and these are well heeled generally - I think TH FI reckon every tourist who arrives by cruise ship kicks in £ 18 a head where by air it's £1400 a head plus of course it keeps the airport open for all the other possible uses

What was criminal was building the terminal to LHR T5 standards for a few flights a month

[virginblue]

What was he expecting? The St. Helena would be the new Magalluf once an airport was built? It will always be a niche-niche-niche tourist destination, with or without an airport.

[WHBM]

2,807 in 6 months, compared to 2,034 by sea in 2014. Should come as no surprise actually, the Embraer 190 only comes once a week and with 95 seats that makes just under 2,500 if at 100% load factor, it's probably quite a bit less. Once a month it goes on to Ascension and back, principally for the Saints working there to go to/fro, which will add to the figures.

You do indeed have to question the oversize terminal. From casual views the building looks larger than the terminal at London City, which processes that number of arrivals in a two hours. A couple of Portakabins would have surely sufficed.

[Pain in the R's]

This money came out of the overseas aid budget, the same budget that gives money to the Indians despite them having a space budget. If the money has to be spent I would rather see a British dependency get it than India.

[Alteagod]

Regardless of demand for talk sake is it possible to operate from UK to St Helena?

[BA318]

Perhaps in a similar vein to the St. Pierre - Paris flights? https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/paris-saint-pierre-flights-sold-out-france-canada-newfoundland-new-route-a8373811.html

The runway at St. Helena is longer but could the wind sheer issue may be the bigger problem. I imagine a 737-700 would still need to stopover but could perhaps stop in Accra on the way?

[WHBM]

I don't see what problem the SA stopover is, apart from it being better done at Cape Town rather than Jo'burg (where many tourists arrive anyway). The comparable distance offshore Galapagos Islands in the Pacific have multiple daily tourist jet flights from Guayaquil in Ecuador, far less accessible than Jo'burg, yet seem to manage quite straightforwardly for European tourists.

If you don't want to stop over in Jo'burg the Saturday departure connects quite nicely with incoming European overnight flights, and when it gets back the same applies with the evening departures back to Europe. It's well under 24 hours from London to St Helena.

This money came out of the overseas aid budget, the same budget that gives money to the Indians despite them having a space budget. If the money has to be spent I would rather see a British dependency get it than IndiaApart from this being a poor attitude to UK public spending, the money was almost wholly spent with a South African contractor with SA labour and materials.

[AirportPlanner1]

This money came out of the overseas aid budget, the same budget that gives money to the Indians despite them having a space budget. If the money has to be spent I would rather see a British dependency get it than India.

Short-sighted and a simplistic Daily Mail argument. Aid = investment, investment = trade. You could give money straight to your family rather than spend it on dining a client, but if the client continues doing business with you that leaves you with even more cash for the things you want.

[Falcon666]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/fullsizeoutput_30d_cb2b452eeb5914a036e636db7438ba2d959165ec. jpeg

[Falcon666]

This was a screenshot of what should have been the first flight from the UK to St Helena in 2016

[atakacs]

Hmm what equipment did they plan to use? What routing?

[Falcon666]

Hmm what equipment did they plan to use? What routing?

737-800 via Banjul I believe , company involved was Atlantic Star using TUI

[atakacs]

Ok not a strictly direct flight then (I don't think it would be possible).

[Falcon666]

Ok not a strictly direct flight then (I don't think it would be possible).

Originally they planned a B757 operation ( leased from Icelandair) but that wasn’t going to be direct. then the flights were planned from LGW .In the end the above flights were due to operate from LTN but the wind shear problems kicked off at St Helena and the rest is history.
Google is your friend if you want to delve deeper.

[BA318]

Ok not a strictly direct flight then (I don't think it would be possible).

technically it would have been a direct flight just not non-stop. Direct flight means same plane, same flight number but could stop elsewhere enroute.

[atakacs]

technically it would have been a direct flight just not non-stop. Direct flight means same plane, same flight number but could stop elsewhere enroute.
Fair point.

For the sake of argument can any current type make UK <-> St Helena non stop? Maybe some high end bizjet (Gulfstream 650 or the like)? Commercial seems out of the question (you can't land a heavy there).

[Cyrano]

Fair point.

For the sake of argument can any current type make UK <-> St Helena non stop? Maybe some high end bizjet (Gulfstream 650 or the like)? Commercial seems out of the question (you can't land a heavy there).




A Bombardier Global 6000 (https://businessaircraft.bombardier.com/en/aircraft/global-6000#!#bba-pdp-section-1) would get you there (and back) non-stop...

[WHBM]

Originally they planned a B757 operation ( leased from Icelandair) … but the wind shear problems kicked off at St Helena and the rest is history
Icelandair would have surely had one of the prime sets of crews from around the world (along with Air New Zealand at Wellington and Loganair) for whom windshear and crosswinds are a daily event readily handled.

[AirportPlanner1]

Ok not a strictly direct flight then (I don't think it would be possible).

You could get there non-stop in theory but not with enough fuel to divert should it be required (given how far the alternatives are)

[kfsimpson]

For the sake of argument can any current type make UK <-> St Helena non stop? Maybe some high end bizjet (Gulfstream 650 or the like)? Commercial seems out of the question (you can't land a heavy there).


Tory party grandee Michael Ashcroft has twice flown his private jet there. It's a Dassault Falcon 7X, which appears to have more than enough range to fly from Britain to St Helena. Perhaps he will offer to fly Boris there and leave him at Longwood House like Napoleon.

[rog747]

Operating the fight from CPT was THE sensible equation to take up the tourists (who are actually aplenty wishing to go to the island BUT for ££££ current huge cost flying from from JNB on a tiddly plane)
Comair/BA threw in the towel after buying a brand new 737-800SWL for the route and then finding the wind-shear was off limits for their Ops after a proving flight.
Nambia have refused traffic rights at WDH or permission for the fuel stop from CPT

All a take of woe really init....

Flights from the UK were mooted YEARS ago now using TUI Netherlands from LTN via BJL
Why the Dutch TUI were asked and not UK TUI, and the cost of the empty Posn flights to/from AMS-LTN-AMS, and even before that plans were with Astraeus (I think) with a 757 was going to be doing it....

That is how long this debacle has been going on for!

[atakacs]

Ani idea why Namibia is not cooperating (I guess politics but I honestly don't know).

[CabinCrewe]

Lots of nice little videos of first Titan 757 at St Helena. Looks as if it managed no problem with a test planned for around in the other direction. A 757 really is perfect for that route.
See Facebook St Helena Airport site and some on YouTube

[OC37]

Lots of nice little videos of first Titan 757 at St Helena. Looks as if it managed no problem with a test planned for around in the other direction. A 757 really is perfect for that route.
See Facebook St Helena Airport site and some on YouTube

Titan previously put an A318 in to St Helena, saw a flight deck video of the approach and it seemed a tad lumpy, then they did some practice approaches from both ends.

[Alteagod]

The Nepal Airlines 757 combi might be a considered purchase for titan to operate to St Helena, depends on performance data but there we go. Thats my tuppence worth on the story.

[Asturias56]

"Icelandair would have surely had one of the prime sets of crews from around the world (along with Air New Zealand at Wellington and Loganair) for whom windshear and crosswinds are a daily event readily handled."

TAP crews who go into Santa Cruz in Madeira are the guys you want TBH - I've also seen some interesting arrivals at Ambon

[BA318]

The Nepal Airlines 757 combi might be a considered purchase for titan to operate to St Helena, depends on performance data but there we go. Thats my tuppence worth on the story.

I doubt any reputable operator will be going near that.

[CabinCrewe]

There must be a glut of 757s now, such as TUI UK ones. Didn’t lots of them become freighters? Don’t think it’s all about cargo for Titan anyway.

[750XL]

757 is a big and expensive piece of metal to be using to St Helena, with dwindling 757 operators around willing to take on the contract.

Embraer or C-series probably better suited

[OC37]

Well Titan previously operated an A318 ex STN with just one stop in Accra, just 32 business class seats but a fair whack of cargo so not sure how much weight restricted they may have been.


A318

[LBIA]

Titan Airways will operate a further 4+ charter flights from London Stansted to St Helena and the Ascension Island with flights operating via Las Plamas. The current target dates for the flights to depart the UK are weeks beginning - 14th September, 26th October, 30th November 2020 & 11th January 2021.

One-way flight prices start from.
London – St Helena = £950
London – Ascension = £800
Ascension – St Helena = £450

https://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/2020/news/additional-charter-flights/

[OC37]

Just curious where that number of passengers shall be accommodated on Ascension!

[LGS6753]

Isn't the Titan A318 still configured for 32 pax?

[OC37]

Isn't the Titan A318 still configured for 32 pax?

Yes, but when the A318 went down it did a one-stopper in Accra, the B757 went down via LPA & ASC, same as this proposed routing and they are advertising this with a B757 pic

[kfsimpson]

Yes, but when the A318 went down it did a one-stopper in Accra, the B757 went down via LPA & ASC, same as this proposed routing and they are advertising this with a B757 pic
The 757 returned via Accra. The SHG states that the flights 'will only call at Ascension Island when there is sufficient passenger demand. The flight route between London and St Helena is therefore subject to change.' I imagine Accra is cheaper and logistically easier for Titan if there are no or few passengers for Ascension.

[OC37]

The 757 returned via Accra. The SHG states that the flights 'will only call at Ascension Island when there is sufficient passenger demand. The flight route between London and St Helena is therefore subject to change.' I imagine Accra is cheaper and logistically easier for Titan if there are no or few passengers for Ascension.

But the one crew were clearly operating STN/LPA/ASC to then take mandatory crew rest before continuing, they can't operate STN/LPA/HLE in a single duty period and LPA seems an oddball choice of fuel stop being only 4 hours in to the journey, I appreciate that there are problems with quarantines etc. but couldn't they at least make it as far as somewhere like SID or DKR where at least there are hotels to accommodate both crew and pax whilst completing the route with perhaps just one stop.

[750XL]

I think COVID rules may be the reason.

Cape Verde islands at least have stopped allowing flights through (ie RAF to/from Falklands have been using other airports)

[TheLambtonWorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzXRVZg24ag

[inOban]

I think COVID rules may be the reason.

Cape Verde islands at least have stopped allowing flights through (ie RAF to/from Falklands have been using other airports)
I suspect it's the RAF who are avoiding the islands because they have a lot of virus.

[inOban]

Deleted duplicate

[OC37]

And what about Ascension, presumably the runway there has been repaired after the RAF A330's churned it up?

[rog747]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzXRVZg24ag

That looks a blast - Bet the chaps loved it and the ladies, :)

[atakacs]

Seems to be very quiet wind wise...

[OC37]

Seems to be very quiet wind wise...

2 mins and 37 secs in to this video is filming their A318 landing from inside the flight deck, I'd suggest that this was a tad lumpy on final approach.

A318 Landing

[Voodoo1977]

Just wondering how an Airbus A220 would go at St Helena: both operationally and economically?