Air Cadet Rank Slides

[Tiger Tales]

Apologies if this has been done already (couldn't find on a quick search) but WTF is this?! Are they serious??

Seen a few commissioned type rank slides floating around the station in the last few days with "RAF Air Cadets" (as opposed to Army or Navy Air Cadets :hmm:) but the aircrew ones are surely a p*** take?? Nobody has approved that right?! :confused::=

https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/uploads/default/original/2X/a/a6f96c38c54631ddc841d188a5493729ccb96263.jpg

[Treble one]

These look like the rank slides for Adult staff rather than cadets. I believe the bottom right WO slide is colloquially known as a 'Tate and Lyles'?

[POBJOY]

As far as the Gliding side was concerned being a 'catted' CI was a great option.
You could just get on with the flying and not have any issues from HQ Air Cadets or the local wing.
In fact the whole system seems to have gone astray since the demise of real control from the 'centres' who of course used to have a hands on approach and their CO's who led from the front. Experienced centre staff would have direct contact with the schools and maintained suitable standards. The attempt to infuse the CFS element never really worked as the systems were poles apart and the equipment stone age in aviation terms. On the one side you had 'selected' screened students on a full time flying course with suitable ground school, and at the schools enthusiastic students available on an ad hoc basis with no real classroom time. Strange; our system worked because it had evolved to suit the circumstances, and no one can say it did not work very well.

[NutLoose]

Strange layout, you would think they would have the flying ones running vertically down in sequence, same goes for the ordinary spacies.

[The B Word]

What is the difference (apart from the obvious visual one) between Master Aircrew and WO Aircrew? The RAF don’t have WO1s and WO2s - so I just don’t get it?

[TwoTunnels]

Personally I think the Air Cadets wearing the NCA ranks following their five minute gliding course is disgraceful. However, I know that others don't have a problem with it (including fellow NCA).
And yes, I know it says 'RAF Air Cadets' below.
I know of one RAF NCA colleague who has been mistaken for an cadet glider instructor already. It just reinforces the contempt for NCA from the Regular RAF hierarchy.
Maybe they should join in with the Job Evaluation next year...might get us a pay rise!

[The B Word]

Seeing as the Air Cadet Glider Pilots are NOT Qualified Service Pilots (hence they don’t wear RAF wings) then the NCO Glider Pilots are NOT Qualified Service WSOps as NCA. So the brevets and the RAF AIR CADETS are the identifiers. There have been plenty of RAFVR(T) officers strutting around without VRT tags in the past, but their behaviour normally quickly gives them away as being from the lowest level of reserve service. The same is likely to be true with these NCO/WO insignia. Not a criticism of the individuals but the ‘veneer thin’ service training they recieve before wearing the rank.

I do agree that this is a daft use of NCA rank insignia though :ok:

[Yellow Sun]

For those with a bit of time on their hands, a 1652 post thread exists here (https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/t/vr-t-commission-change/2647/1633).
Warning! you may well lose the will to live if you read too much of it!

The new rank slides are all part of the reorganisation and re-branding exercise that the air cadet organisation is undergoing. If you read the thread at the link, you will find a lot of people getting very agitated about the demise of the VRT commission and is replacement with the Cadet force commission (CFC). Whilst it may appear that the matter may have been "sub-optimally handled", it is in effect a long overdue reform exercise.

Its roots go back to the 1970s after the Air Training Corps (ATC) had ceased to be a pre-service training organisation and became a MoD sponsored youth organisation. It was mooted that ATC officers should be moved from the RAF list but this was turned down as many former WW2 personnel remained in the ranks and most volunteer staff had some service experience.

The matter was raised again circa 1990 when it was becoming apparent that the proportion of ATC (VRT) officers and staff with no experience other than in the cadet corp was rising rapidly. The question was asked as to whether it was either necessary or correct that they should hold a military commission? Unfortunately, due to lack of resource (and will?) the matter was again kicked into the long grass.

Why the nettle was grasped this time, I do not know, but suspect that a large number of factors were involved and the move for change became irresistible. Thus the ATC - RAF Air Cadets (RAFAC) have arrived by a not altogether smooth process.

Make of it what you will.

YS

[ExAscoteer]

What is the difference (apart from the obvious visual one) between Master Aircrew and WO Aircrew? The RAF don’t have WO1s and WO2s - so I just don’t get it?

The Tate and Lyle can only be worn by RAFAC (RAF Air Cadets) WOs who have been Regular RAF or RAF Reserve WOs (or in some cases WOs in the Army or Navy). RAFAC WOs who get the rank based on time in the Corps wear the crown.

There's a lot of mutterings going on within RAFAC at the moment given the corporate re-branding. Personally, as aircrew I see no reason for NCO Gliding Instructors to be given NCA type rank slides - they have a brevet to identify them. It appears to have been driven by OC 2 FTS (make of that what you will).

Furthermore, while I have no problem with the re-branding to 'RAFAC' (from VR(T) / ATC) the fact that adult staff now have to wear rank slides with the word 'cadets' on them as opposed to RAFAC 'pins' (as on No 1 and No 5 Dress) is pretty insulting given the fact that these adults are not cadets.

[JAVELINBOY]

Single cloth crown is worn by Adult Warrant Officers upon appointment, if I remember correctly after 7 or 8 years service one was entitled to put up the Tate & Lyles. Quite sensible in my view as a 21 year old wearing a coat of arms just didn't seem right, it was bad enough wearing the Crown in a Sergeants Mess at 21 when those who lived there had worked so hard over many years to get three stripes, not surprisingly we were often ignored. Only ever experienced one incident in the mess TV room when a Sergeant entered the darkened room whilst we were watching the evening news, strode over to the set and switched channels. From the dark room came a voice that turned out to be a female Warrant Officer who had taken offence with him doing that without asking if we objected, she wiped the floor with him and apologised to us for his behavior then carried on with her knitting.

[ExAscoteer]

Yellow Sun, your post is somewhat short of the mark.

The move is a Tri-Service thing with the enforced removals of current RAFVR(T) Commissions and Reserve Forces Type B Commissions (Army Cadet Force) and the replacement with the 'Cadet Forces Commission'; of course the Sea Cadet Corps like it since, historically, they held no Commission.

While the reasoning given for the change in status is the rationalisation of the Regular and Reserve Forces and the concomittant drift away of the VR(T) and ACF, the actual underlying reason is the fact that VR(T) and Type B Commissions lay within the Armed Forces Act giving holders the right of redress of grievance.

The Service Complaints systen has been jammed up with idiotic trivia from (primarily) senior ACF people. It's not surprising, then, that the MOD and Defence Council have cried 'enough'.

[ExAscoteer]

Single cloth crown is worn by Adult Warrant Officers upon appointment, if I remember correctly after 7 or 8 years service one was entitled to put up the Tate & Lyles.

It hasn't been that way in many years.

[Yellow Sun]

ExAscoteer:

Yellow Sun, your post is somewhat short of the mark.

Yes I fully accept what you say, in particular the Tri-Service rationalisation. However I did try to keep it simple and provide some historical perspective.

The Service Complaints system has been jammed up with idiotic trivia from (primarily) senior ACF people. It's not surprising, then, that the MOD and Defence Council have cried 'enough'.

This is something that I have heard anecdotally but MoD has not been too forthcoming with detail. I also believe that there was a raft of other legal and quasi-legal argument that supported the move.

It was always going to be a minefield from the start but I think it was the correct thing to do. Whether it has been communicated and implemented well, that is open to debate.

YS

[JAVELINBOY]

It hasn't been that way in many years.

Thought it might have changed when they started appointing Adult Sergeants to ATC Squadrons some years ago.

[ExAscoteer]

YS I'm not so sure.

I suggested to Commandant ACO some 3 years ago that all that was needed was an amendment to the AFA meaning that Sevice Complaints for VR(T) and Class B Commissions stopped at relevent Commandant level (as opposed to the Defence Council).

Tellingly, AEF personnel will retain their VR(T) Commissions since there (apparently) needs to be a level of accountability.

I forsee consequences to this change such as the loss of the ability to draw weapons and ammunition from Service Armouries, let alone the loss of the ability to use Section 5 Firearms (routinely L98A2 and L86A2, as well as L85A2 for the Junior Leaders cse).

[Herod]

Tellingly, AEF personnel will retain their VR(T) Commissions since there (apparently) needs to be a level of accountability.
I don't know if it's changed (a long time since I was flying Chippies) but to be an AEF pilot you had to be RAF qualified. Nowadays that means you must have been commissioned (?). I Have two commissioning scrolls. One as Acting Pilot Officer in the regular force, and one as a Flying Officer VR(T)

[ExAscoteer]

AFAIK to be an AEF pilot currently you have to have either been a Service Pilot or hold a CPL.

Don't quote me on that though!

[Yellow Sun]

ExAscoteer

I suggested to Commandant ACO some 3 years ago that all that was needed was an amendment to the AFA meaning that Sevice Complaints for VR(T) and Class B Commissions stopped at relevent Commandant level (as opposed to the Defence Council).

That would appear to assume that the driver was solely the issue of Service Complaints. It may have been the final element, but there would seem to have been many other factors.

The AEF issue was always going need a different solution and retaining the VRT commission for this purpose would seem appropriate.

The Firearms issue revolves almost solely around the use of S5 weapons ( I use that term deliberately). The exemptions for S1 and 2 are well established and straightforward, but why the decision was ever taken to provision a S5 weapon for a youth organisation almost beggars belief. I have never heard anything approaching a convincing argument for it. Civilianising cadet shooting would do much to make it more accessible and provide a proper output pathway.

YS

[Tiger Tales]

If these are indeed genuine, I can't wait to see the first Air Cadet (adult or otherwise) wearing '****ehawks' on their shoulder walk into a Mess or Sqn populated by real NCA. That should be a fairly short conversation!! :}
:hmm:

[Cows getting bigger]

If these are indeed genuine, I can't wait to see the first Air Cadet (adult or otherwise) wearing '****ehawks' on their shoulder walk into a Mess or Sqn populated by real NCA. That should be a fairly short conversation!! :}
:hmm:

I can't wait to see NCA walk into a mess/Sqn occupied by real WOs/SNCOs. :E

[YellowTom]

So according to that poster, I'm less important than a regular Flt Sgt. Can I give a copy to the next person who tries to dump some non-flying/non-mission related problem on my plate? Ta.

[Bigbux]

but why the decision was ever taken to provision a S5 weapon for a youth organisation almost beggars belief. I have never heard anything approaching a convincing argument for it.

YS

Because:

a. Sitting behind a firing point for the first time as a 14 year old, witnessing the noise and power of full-bore military-grade weapons being fired by your mates, knowing with an ever-increasing sense of excitement and fear that your own shoulder will be behind that weapon in minutes few, is a rite of passage.

b. Firing automatic weapons and destroying targets is fun, and gives you top bragging rights back in the classroom - as a bonus, it annoys liberal lefty teachers/parents/pupils.

c. The authorisation to handle military weapons on a range is dependent on properly learning and carrying out IA Drills and having the discipline to react promptly and correctly to commands given by the range officer/nco.

d. Military shooting does not merely consist of shooting at a static, paper target. It is designed to train the soldier to become a [Definition] "Good Battle Shot". That definition encompasses the many things that make a soldier, as opposed to shooting a weapon in the vague direction of a target. (Think completing OCU as opposed to first solo circuit.)

e. Having achieved d above - you can then hone your skills on a digital simulator where upon receiving the appropriate FCO, you must "keep your weapon working order; detect and locate an enemy and fire quickly and accurately at a target".

f. Doing all the above instills the desire in those so disposed to join the Armed Forces and ensures that on joining and throughout training, the passion and determination to excel is well established.

It may not convince you - but it sure as hell convinced me and I wasn't alone.

Definition - from memory, as far as I can recall it

"A good battle shot is a fit, trained, soldier who, under any conditions of combat can use ground for cover, concealment and movement, maintain and keep his personal weapon in order, locate and detect an enemy and fire quickly and accurately at a target."

[Yellow Sun]

Bigbux

With the exception of:

Firing automatic weapons and destroying targets is fun, and gives you top bragging rights back in the classroom - as a bonus, it annoys liberal lefty teachers/parents/pupils.

the remainder of your list can be achieved with S1 firearms.

YS

[YellowTom]

I thought cadets these days weren't allowed to use self-loading weapons never mind automatic?

[Yellow Sun]

I thought cadets these days weren't allowed to use self-loading weapons never mind automatic?

YT, the issue is that the cadet forces have been provided with weapons that are classified under Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968. In this case the relevant weapons are:


Prohibited weapons
Some types of weapon and ammunition are prohibited altogether and may only lawfully be held in someone’s possession, purchased, acquired, manufactured, sold or transferred with the authority of the Secretary of State. It is an offence punishable by up to ten years’ imprisonment following conviction on indictment for a person to possess or distribute prohibited weapons or ammunition for prohibited weapons. The list of prohibited weapons is set out in section 5(1) of the Firearms Act 1968:

(a) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;

(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;

The security and use of S5 weapons is heavily circumscribed and quite rightly subject to stringent security procedures. The issue is that I can see no necessity for cadet forces to be given access to S5 weapons when the aims on objectives of shooting can be as readily achieved by using Section 1 firearms. S1 firearms, which are available to the general public subject to their satisfying the requirement for issue if a certificate, and are far easier to administer; even with the "gold plating" that the services apply.

Bear in mind, this is a youth organisation we are talking about, it hasn't been a pre-service training organisation since 1962. Neither is it a recruiting organisation. If cadets learn to glide or fly a powered aircraft they can continue to develop in a civilian club. Weapons training will be of little or no use in the civilian world. However shooting still is.

YS

[YellowTom]

Thank you YS, I'd never given a thought to the actual legal status of what the armoury happily pass through it's hatch to me other than they're illegal outside the fence. Do the cadets still use .22 rifles before progressing to their manual fire mod L85? The only reason I could imagine a self loading weapon would be of any use to a cadet is if they're not strong enough yet to keep loading a round? The rapid single shot capability we need isn't something they should ever need?

[tmmorris]

Other than the fact that the single shot L98A1 was virtually impossible for a small cadet to cock successfully without repeated stoppages?

Actually the L41 subcalibre adaptor works well, and a fully modified .22 semi-auto would achieve a lot (the L41 is a user fitted kit so it’s still a S5 firearm). But not the sound, smell or recoil of the real thing, of course.

(PS we’ve had the semi auto L98A2 for about five or six years, keep up!)

[Big Pistons Forever]

Canada resolved the issue of the status of Cadet officers a few years ago. The Defence act was amended to make clear that Cadet officers were not part of the Canadian Armed Forces and therefore all of the service obligations, both ways, did not apply.

With respect to weapons, international conventions as applied to child soldiers are now pretty clear. Service grade automatic weapons have no place in a youth organization.

[tmmorris]

BPF
Thanks for the info re the status of cadet officers in Canada. I didn’t know about that.
However with respect I think obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child are far from clear. They are interpreted differently in different UN countries.
Other posts above may have confused things but the L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle is semi automatic, not automatic. It is manufactured expressly for that reason.

[622]

Bring back the .303 I say!


I can still remember my first time firing it....there was a batch of us who had never fired it before...but had been told horror stories of the vicious kick!


..On the words 'In you own time carry on'.....Silence...as we all waited for the first one to pull the trigger!:E

[Wander00]

622 and bigbux - Yes I remember it well....when I think of the firepower in our 1960s school CCF armoury.....

[tmmorris]

Used to have GPMG and LSW in ours, relatively recently. LSW is still allowed for cadets but not on auto.

[Aggamemnon]

LSW may be fired on automatic, from the prone position.

[Mogwi]

Bring back the .303 I say!


I can still remember my first time firing it....there was a batch of us who had never fired it before...but had been told horror stories of the vicious kick!


..On the words 'In you own time carry on'.....Silence...as we all waited for the first one to pull the trigger!:E

The most accurate weapon in our CCF armoury was a beautifully preserved No1 Lee-Enfield from the Great War period. I fitted it with a Parker-Hale competition (variable aperture) rear sight, snuggled down on the Hythe ranges at the 200 yard point, took the first pressure, regulated my breathing and with the foresight exactly in the centre of the aperture - squeezed the trigger. Resulting recoil resulted in me seeing a large number of stars, followed by something warm running down my right cheek. I still have the scar above my right eye over 60 years later.

It was in the 10-ring though!

[ExAscoteer]

LSW may be fired on automatic, from the prone position.

Burst fire only.

There are further strictures.

ACP 18, Vol 3, AL1 and ACTO 42 refer.

[Dave Clarke Fife]

Bring back the .303 I say!


I can still remember my first time firing it....there was a batch of us who had never fired it before...but had been told horror stories of the vicious kick!


..On the words 'In you own time carry on'.....Silence...as we all waited for the first one to pull the trigger!:E

Ahhhhhh.......the .303. What memories. As a 14 year old on the range at RAF Cosford for the very first time, I remember being filled with excitement and slight trepidation having heard the stories of this rifles recoil. The 'old hands' (the 16 year olds) told us sprogs that the beret placed inside the hairy mary would help cushion this much anticipated kick and to a man we all did so. They failed to mention that the metal badge on aforementioned beret should not be resting directly facing ones right shoulder with just a thin blue shirt between it and soft unblemished flesh. The flesh wasnt unblemished after discharching " ten rounds in your own time, carry on"

[The Oberon]

Ahhhhhh.......the .303. What memories. As a 14 year old on the range at RAF Cosford for the very first time, I remember being filled with excitement and slight trepidation having heard the stories of this rifles recoil. The 'old hands' (the 16 year olds) told us sprogs that the beret placed inside the hairy mary would help cushion this much anticipated kick and to a man we all did so. They failed to mention that the metal badge on aforementioned beret should not be resting directly facing ones right shoulder with just a thin blue shirt between it and soft unblemished flesh. The flesh wasnt unblemished after discharching " ten rounds in your own time, carry on"
We were also told to keep our mouths open to equalise the pressure on the ear drum, "stops you going deaf". That didn't work either.

[Always a Sapper]

Thank you YS, I'd never given a thought to the actual legal status of what the armoury happily pass through it's hatch to me other than they're illegal outside the fence. Do the cadets still use .22 rifles before progressing to their manual fire mod L85? The only reason I could imagine a self loading weapon would be of any use to a cadet is if they're not strong enough yet to keep loading a round? The rapid single shot capability we need isn't something they should ever need?

I would strongly suggest if the shooter is not strong enough yet to keep loading a round then they are blatantly not strong enough or safe to be handling the weapon in the first place, much less taking it out and putting lead down the range!

When I was in I could think of some serving soldiers who shouldn't have been let loose with anything larger or more powerful than a restricted .177 air-rifle!

[cynicalint]

Which of the New Air Cadet rank tabs indicates the power of weapon available to the wearer?

[Meester proach]

Poncing around in rank tabs has long been a rite of passage for the ATC.
I remember being the big man in brize mess with my three stripes....until various groups of sandy bereted chaos came in....I then tried to hide as did my testicles..

Not as bad as the gliding instructors ...who came undone when they met some VC10pilots

[AnglianAV8R]

We were also told to keep our mouths open to equalise the pressure on the ear drum, "stops you going deaf". That didn't work either.

Pardon ? :E

[MPN11]

Pardon ? :E
Seconded!

When I left the RAF, I had a full hearing test in anticipation of a claim for hearing loss due to service. Although not sufficiently impaired to qualify, the audiologist did note that the frequency band and other indicators were, as he put it, "classic .303 damage".

Back in the 50s/60's when I was in the CCF and later ATC, there wer, as you know no ear defenders of any sort. And using cotton wool or 4x2 to diminish the sound was seen as decidedly wimpish. A new generation of deaf cadets was born!