The Vietnam War

[JosuaNkomo]

Have been engrossed by the series directed by Ken Burns and Lynn Novice now showing on telly. Well worth a watch. Some very good aviation footage as well.

Seems to tell the story from both sides, without passing judgment, and is very sympathetic to all viewpoints. Very sad in places. A masterpiece of television.

[yellowtriumph]

Have been engrossed by the series directed by Ken Burns and Lynn Novice now showing on telly. Well worth a watch. Some very good aviation footage as well.

Seems to tell the story from both sides, without passing judgment, and is very sympathetic to all viewpoints. Very sad in places. A masterpiece of television.

On what telly channel might this be please?

[cyclic35]

On what telly channel might this be please?


BBC 4 around 21:00 some times and 22:00 others.

[melmothtw]

On what telly channel might this be please?

You can watch it on BBC iPlayer. Now four episodes in, so suggest you catch it soon before the first one(s) drop off.

Agree, well worth a watch.

[chinook240]

Excellent series

BBC Four - The Vietnam War (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096k7q7)

[gums]

Salute!

You can watch the whole series here for at least a bit longer.

Episodes | The Vietnam War - New (http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/episodes/)

I personally appreciated the series' treatment of we vets from that miserable time. Occupied ten years of my service and I had three tours ( two different jets).

They didn't cover the "real" last mission by a fighter-bomber, which I led BTW.

http://www.sluf.org/misc_pages/last_flt_out.jpg

Gums sends...

[dynamics]

Very informative and well executed. I'm thoroughly enjoying this!

Here's the iPlayer link for the series: BBC iPlayer - The Vietnam War (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/b096k7q7)

[twb3]

The treatment was better than I expected. Ken Burns does better when he has actual film to work with.


For my money, I think the piece makes Lyndon Johnson look like more of a victim than a President. I don't think Johnson ever understood the North Vietnamese leadership and that they could not be dealt with like a recalcitrant Congressman with threats and pressure. There was almost no mention of the handcuffing and micromanagement of the armed forces coming from the Johnson White House.

[NutLoose]

You may also be interested in

WW2 Treasure Hunters on History Channel
Series one episode one is on catch up, narrated by Suggs they are excavating a Ju88.
Next weeks they are digging at Duxford looking for relics of Bader and the fliers. So the series looks like it may well have legs to it :E

On search it is on at 9pm on Mondays and so far is promising.

[SASless]

Read McMaster's Book...."Dereliction of Duty"....if you want a better understanding of how the United States Military and Civilian Leadership set out to lose the War....and succeeded handsomely.

The real key change in the way the War was fought is when Westmoreland got the can tied to his tail (incompetence promoted upwards....) and Creighton Abrams took over.

The Book about Abrams...."Thunderbolt" is very informative.

Forty plus years later I have a much different understanding of the War than I did during my two Tours there flying Chinooks.

I also have lots of questions about for the Management that I would very much like answered.

[yellowtriumph]

Thanks for the replies - I will give this a go later on iplayer.

[yellowtriumph]

Salute!

You can watch the whole series here for at least a bit longer.

Episodes | The Vietnam War - New (http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-vietnam-war/episodes/)

I personally appreciated the series' treatment of we vets from that miserable time. Occupied ten years of my service and I had three tours ( two different jets).

They didn't cover the "real" last mission by a fighter-bomber, which I led BTW.

http://www.sluf.org/misc_pages/last_flt_out.jpg

Gums sends...


Just for info, PBS is not available in the UK. (Legitimately anyway).

[mopardave]

I have two cousins who were eligible........one joined a seminary.......a more unlikely priest you could not meet! Didn't stay the course and didn't become a man of the cloth! The other was at an Ivy league college.....think he deferred somehow? My "college" cousins wife's brother flew Hueys.......wonder what he made of all that? Not making a judgement by the way.....but I suspect there will have been a fair few creative "deferments"? Just saying.

[The Old Fat One]

Hands down the best programme on TV right now, and one of the best documentary series I've seen. Some of the footage and graphic images are being shown for the first time I believe.

I caught up with the first three episodes on I-Player and first thing I saw was the interview of Everett Alvarez (A4 pilot) whose hand I once shook circa mid eighties.

The inclusion of so much footage of North Vietnamese veteran interviews brings much needed perspective to what is a very recent conflict. Neil Sheehan's input is also so very valuable - I believe "Bright and Shining Lie" to be a truly epic piece of work.

It saddens me that 99% of our population would rather watch some unreality TV bilge, than try and learn something of value from the damn squawkbox in the living room.

And as for the 19 year olds that went out there (and their Vietnamese adversaries), I take my hat off and raise a glass to them all. Whatever the politics, them that fought, did so bravely and courageously, in many cases to the bitter end.

PS should anyone think, my remarks in any way glorify this vicious, brutal conflict, I've read "Dispatches" by Michael Herr, "...And a Hard Rain Fell" by John Ketwig. Say no more.

[Rosevidney1]

Quite simply the best documentary I have seen in years. Even-handed and measured documentary sets an almost impossible standard to beat. I urge people to view it.

[chinook240]

Just for info, PBS is not available in the UK. (Legitimately anyway).

I have PBS America on Sky Channel 534 legally in the U.K., is it different?

[sangiovese.]

Up to episode 3 and agree it's a fabulous documentary. Careful though on what you post on here, spoiler alert I don't want to know how it ends.....

[yellowtriumph]

I have PBS America on Sky Channel 534 legally in the U.K., is it different?

Ah, the link given above was to PBS's live streaming service which tells me that it is not available here in the UK when I click on it.

[PersonFromPorlock]

My impression during my three Arclight tours was that our leaders had no idea of how to win the thing, or end it, just a determination not to be the ones stuck carrying the can when we lost.

Curtis LeMay's "bomb 'em back to the stone age" tactic did work, once it was tried, but by then all we wanted was an opportunity to quit, which North Vietnam 'graciously' allowed us. They then more-or-less instantly occupied the eastern borders of Laos and Cambodia in preparation for their eventual takeover of the south.

[westernhero]

Agree with all the comments above, the latest episode was to me notable for two things, the first being film of a B-57 swooping low over the forest on a bombing run and the second the appearance (twice, the series no matter how good it is still follows the modern media dirty little habit of using some shots twice or more in the same episode ) of all things Commer minibuses on the streets of Saigon, how did they get there !

Was hoping for an entire episode on the ' Air Campaign ' and the problems facing those brave men in the F-105s over the North, I don't thing it's going to happen now which I think is all a bit sad, I'd like to have seen some interviews with the Thud drivers before they're all gone.

[Lantern10]

Sadly not available in Australia.
You all make it sound like a great series to watch.

[sangiovese.]

B52s stacked at one thousand feet separation from 7 to 35000ft according to the narrative, or Westmorland requesting another 200000 troops

Incredible to even contemplate. Must reread no more Vietnams now, a fascinating view of war too

[NutLoose]

Yellowtriumph, here you go, UK link

BBC Four - The Vietnam War - Available now (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096k7q7/episodes/player)

[Fareastdriver]

Commer minibuses on the streets of Saigon, how did they get there !

You would be amazed at how many British vehicles were exported to the Far East in that time.

Then the Japanese motor industry got their act together.

[Wander00]

Well, they started building and exporting cars - took a while to get their act together so they did not rust so quickly

[SASless]

Think about it....we bombed our allies and never invaded the enemy's country.

Westmoreland's strategy was Attrition....we killed more of them than the killed of us and in time they would quit and we could go home. On my second tour...I was privileged to be invited into the Battalion Briefing Room...where on the Wall I saw a Score Board....showing the Stats...."Them" and "Us". Very quickly I came to the realization at some point I could figure in those numbers if I kept returning to the game.

Abrams was about Logistics...and understood the NVA operated in reverse of the US Military. We brought supplies up behind us to support Operations where the NVA had to pre-position their supplies ahead of their troops in anticipation of Operations as we controlled the Air and Ground resupply routes.

The Cambodia Incursion yielded almost two years of very low paced Operations in the Three Corps Area as we disrupted their logistical operation.

[ExGrunt]

And as for the 19 year olds that went out there (and their Vietnamese adversaries), I take my hat off and raise a glass to them all. Whatever the politics, them that fought, did so bravely and courageously, in many cases to the bitter end.


The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall is one of the most moving things about a trip to Washington DC.

I always thought the Vietnam War deserved a treatment like 'The world at War' did for the second world war. From what I have see this could be the one.

EG

[SASless]

Traveling around Vietnam, one encounters numerous Military Cemeteries for North Vietnamese Army and Viet Long battle dead. They are very well done and honor the sacrifice made by those on the other side who were lost.

Sadly, there are no such places for the losing side and in most cases those cemeteries were bull dozed over and destroyed.

No matter how you look at it...War of any kind is a terrible thing.

[Turbine D]

It saddens me that 99% of our population would rather watch some unreality TV bilge, than try and learn something of value from the damn squawkbox in the living room.

The one person that I sincerely hope would watch the series is Donald Trump as he ponders what to do regarding NK, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, China & Russia. Episode 3 pretty much depicts how the US got into it and never looked at how it could be ended, Iraq and Afghanistan being today's instant replays.

SAS makes a valid point about war and it doesn't end on the battlefield. My brother's oldest two sons served in the Vietnam War. Upon return after their Army deployments, one committed suicide and the other eventually died from drug overdosing. The drugs prescribed were to treat his mental war demons that never went away. Today it is known as post traumatic stress syndrome.

[JosuaNkomo]

No spoiler hopefully. As an ex infantry soldier and helicopter pilot ( On different continents and less dangerous theatres) what really got to me was the M16 took over 4 years and a congressional investigation to become fit for purpose.

I for one will not recommend any military career for my children.

[gums]

Salute!

Thank you, Turbine, for a super recommendation to the Trumpster. Not sure if you should info Mad Dog, but if he thinks the U.S. can achieve some mysterious goal or another in the 'stan, then he needs to go back in history as well.

When the recent announcement was made we Yanks would "only" send a few thousand "advisors" to the 'stan, I cringed. I told my wife, and wrote my close buddies and fellow grads from USAFA that bore the brunt of the air war - tonight there are 60,000 ghosts rising from their graves and shouting "NOT AGAIN!!!!".

My class was in a virtual tie with '65 for most KIA, and we were the top WRT POW's.

++++++++

@ Sas: With due respect, the Cambodian ground effort was cut very short, and by early 1972 the Vee had infiltrated very large ground forces to the III Corps area and stged an intense battle at An Loc - the Easter Offensive. They then raced across the DMZ and made Quang Tri a wasteland.

My A-37 unit was a major player in the air over Cambodia until all in-country USAF units folded their tents in Oct of 72. But its crowning achievement was being the last and most capable, dedicated close air support unit still in-country for the battle at An Loc. The Vee had tanks!! They had arty, they had lottsa folks. We lost more there than any other battle from 1967 - 1972, including the fellow who was interred as the "Unknown Soldier" for years before the government admitted they made a mistake. At the time, they needed an "unknown" and all the dedicated ground units were gone except a few Marines for airbase defense. Despite eyewitnesses to the crash, the military weenies wanted an "unkown".

The renewed bombing campaign up north in April/May of 1972 caused the Vee to back off that summer and there was only sporadic firefights the rest of the year. So I got back in October, and had the oppo to hit Hanoi during the Christmas blitz in my new ride - A-7D. I can guarantee that our only goal was to get our friends out of prison and all go home. The South was on its own. Our direct involvement was over, tho we bombed Cambodia for another few months, and I was one of the last dozen fighters to hit Laos and then cross the Thai border with a few seconds to spare one day in late February 1973.

Gums recalls...

[Niner Lima Charlie]

Most of us Vietnam War Veterans in the U.S. feel that this is a one-sided, half-truth documentary unworthy of watching. I saw the first two episodes, then turned it off. So many facts were wrong, photos did not match the audio descriptions, many facts omitted.

This documentary on the Vietnam War breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.

[JosuaNkomo]

9LC
Interesting, I must say l didn't get that impression. I thought the Vets interviewed came across well and l was impressed that conscripts and volunteers on the whole put up with their lot with what can be described as stoicism and bravery in the face of dogma that they knew was false.

What do I know however. I was 2 at the time of Tet.

[Top West 50]

A USAF colleague on my Staff College course at Bracknell had been shot down and posted missing. He was not notified as a POW. Over time he was presumed dead. Then somebody recognized him on a propaganda clip (just before Christmas, I think). He was eventually released and reunited with his family. He and his wife related their respective experiences and emotions to an enthralled audience of fellow students and their wives. It was a very moving experience. Sorry my memory is a bit hazy after all these years - maybe someone can fill in the gaps?

[SASless]

Gums,

Air Force math at work....April 1970 to Easter 1972 is almost two years by Army Math.

I was there from day one of the Cambodia thing (and before we were inside there)....but my stay got cut short by some .51 Caliber AAA fire up north of Bu Dop.

On my first Tour, I slung load one of your A-37's from Vinh Long to Bien Hoa one evening....after it had a hydraulics failure. All went well until one of the Sling Points on to the A-37 broke and caused the aircraft to hang one wing down....we got it down with just a small ding to the Wing Tank fin.

[gums]

Salute!

@ Sas:

No problem with basic math. The Vee used the two years to move lottsa stuf down south because Nixon had implemented the "Vietnamization" deal. I was BZ those years training the VNAF pilots to fly the Dragonfly.

I ain't gonna quibble about years, but during those years the Vee did a lot of things that made the 1972 spring thing so awful. They did a lot more from early 1973 to early 1975.

On the good side....... We had more than one Dragonfly hoisted and flown back to Bien Hoa by the 'nooks. My own flameout landing jet at Saigon got carried back by one of yours, heh heh.

Keep the faith, brother.

Gums sends...

[megan]

For those who can't access the show I did find one episode here. Other docos come up from a "The Vietnam War" search on y'tube, but if they relate to this series I've not yet established.

gC54k-lGYZs

[[email protected]]

Just watched the first episode and I hope the rest are as good.

It showed how easily a change of personalities and a paranoia about communism took the US relationship with Vietnam (and Ho Chi Minh in particular) from friend (and supplier of arms) to foe. What an almighty foreign policy f*ckup.

[megan]

crab, all wars are a result of policy f*ckup. We, your country, the US and mine, are involved in another at the moment. Communism was a real concern at the time for a number of reasons, you'll remember the Malaysian emergency for one.

[Fareastdriver]

The Americans were also quite pally with young Mao in '44/45.

[[email protected]]

Megan - I didn't say we were immune from foreign policy errors, Iraq and Afghanistan are clear proof of that.

The 'domino theory' of all-pervading communism was a political excuse just as 'defending democracy' was and is for getting involved in other people's countries where we had no right to.

[Top West 50]

"No right to" - by present day or contemporary standards?

[Lonewolf_50]

It showed how easily a change of personalities and a paranoia about communism took the US relationship with Vietnam (and Ho Chi Minh in particular) from friend (and supplier of arms) to foe. What an almighty foreign policy f*ckup. I'm sorry, did you miss the Cold War, Harry Truman's Containment Policy, and much else in the 1950's? Viet Nam was a lesser included case of a policy that was very much NOT a f*ckup. As my dad spent some time in Berlin during the airlift, the communists had already shown their true colors, likewise in Korea. (Could Viet Nam have gone differently? Yeah. But it didn't).

[Musician]

Lonewolf, I recommend the documentary "The Fog of War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War)" by Errol Morris. It's a 2003 interview with Robert McNamara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara), and Robert McNamara's 11 lessons from Vietnam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War#Robert_McNamara.27s_11_lessons_from_Vietnam) are featured in it, among other things. (McNamara is the "management" that SASless is referring to (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/600533-vietnam-war.html#post9920730), presumably.) Quote from Wikipedia:
From Robert McNamara's 1995 book "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam".


We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.
We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience … We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.
We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.
Our misjudgments of friend and foe, alike, reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.
We failed then — and have since — to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces, and doctrine. We failed, as well, to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.
We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement … before we initiated the action.
After the action got under way, and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course … we did not fully explain what was happening, and why we were doing what we did.
We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.
We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action … should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.
We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions … At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.
Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues.

These are slightly shortened versions of the text from page 321 to page 323 of his book.
I recommend the movie, because Morris has McNamara contrast it with the Cuban Missile Crisis: there, the US understood its adversary, and achieved a much better result.

[ExGrunt]

From Robert McNamara's 1995 book "In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam"...

You could apply these virtually verbatim to the two recent UK wars.

[[email protected]]

Lonewolf - yet the US didn't act to contain communism in neighbouring Laos.

Soviet expansionism post WW2 was quite clear - my point is that the 'fear' of Communism was overblown in order to deal with that expansionism. Most US voters wouldn't have cared about minor Asian countries if they hadn't had the spectre of world communism created to give the politicians the money and power to go to war or prop up puppet governments halfway across the world.

It seems like Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist rather than a communist but only the communists would support him to get rid of the French.

Everything after that was a total disaster as McNamara seems to acknowledge.

[SASless]

FDR wanted to see the end of European Colonialism.....Harry Truman failed to follow through and supported the French over the Vietnamese.

After the French got whipped....our political leadership saw to it we had our chance to go against a Re-unification of the two countries as a fear the corrupt and in-popular government would lose to the Northerners.

We see how all that turned out!

[cvg2iln]

And as for the 19 year olds that went out there (and their Vietnamese adversaries), I take my hat off and raise a glass to them all. Whatever the politics, them that fought, did so bravely and courageously, in many cases to the bitter end.

I had a girlfriend, years ago, who had her brother killed in Vietnam. 19yrs would have been about his age. Killed moving forward under effective fire to assist those going under. (USMC.) He was older, she looked up to him, she claimed that when he left she experienced pure fear and anxiety. He obviously was never the same again - and neither was she. Nor were her family.

On the other hand I've flown with those who had a very good SE Asian war who were actually enriched by the experience (which mirrored similar experiences in WWII). Time and Place is everything - plus a bit of luck.

[SASless]

There were Good Times....and there were Times!:(

Every now and then I take a seat on my Porch overlooking the water...watch the Sun go down....and contemplate those Times.

Don't let anyone fool you...being smack dab in the middle of a Game of Cop Your Whack is never "Good".

If you are a long distance spectator...perhaps it is much like watching a movie complete with Popcorn and Softies.

I don't recall any dramatic music playing in the background while the shooting was going on like it does on the Big Screen.

[megan]

If you are a long distance spectator...perhaps it is much like watching a movie complete with Popcorn and SoftiesWell, the stoush did provide entertainment to some SAS. Some years ago went to the medical centre for some forgotten reason, got talking to the Doc, and turned out he was Vietnamese from Soc Trang, right in the middle of my bailiwick. Turned out he was 12 years old during my tenure and said the local kids used to hop on their bikes to view close up any action taking place in the local area, attraction being the helos doing their thing, particularly gunships. We should have charged admission, and run a concession.

[SASless]

Visiting the place a few years back....and having conversations with former VC and NVA was very enjoyable. Once the Ice was broken....it was just old Soldiers talking about their experiences....and sometimes shared experiences.

Seeing the young folks serving today....especially some of the Ladies....Pith Helmets...green uniforms...and a AK hanging from the shoulder was interesting.

It is a beautiful country, very friendly people, and just a nice place to visit.....I could easily have retired there except for other commitments that kept me here.

Way up north next to the Chinese Border is some very pretty country....and cold in the Winter. I was surprised to see Fireplaces in some of the Restaurants and Hotels.

[India Four Two]

It seems like Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist rather than a communist but only the communists would support him to get rid of the French.


Absolutely! I lived in Saigon for two periods totalling ten years, since the mid 90s. I have many Vietnamese friends, I have read extensively about the history and have visited many museums and memorials, including Dien Bien Phu.

The Vietnamese are very proud and fervently nationalistic, regardless of their political persuasion. They have been kicking out invaders for two millennia.

Following the end of the American War (as it is known in Vietnam, to distinguish it from all the other wars), they invaded Cambodia in 1978 and kicked out Pol Pot. The Chinese took advantage of the situation and invaded northern Vietnam in February 1979, in support of their Cambodian allies. After three weeks of intensive fighting, the Chinese withdrew and both sides claimed victory. Serious skirmishes continued until 1990.

Like SASless, I have been up to the border country in northern Vietnam. It is cold in the winter and often snows. There is an extensive network of new roads, built in very rugged and difficult 'karst' terrain, that are obviously for military use. It is the only part of Vietnam where foreigners are still seriously monitored. One member of our party was hauled off to a police station in the middle of the night, because he didn't have his Resident's Permit with him.

It is a tragedy that the US State Department didn't follow up on the recommendations of the OSS in 1945, to support Ho Chi Minh, as they did with Tito. The disaster that befell Indochina during the next forty years, could have been avoided.

[Fareastdriver]

Once NATO was established and the Communist threat to Europe and possibly the rest of the world became the political agenda then it was impossible for the Americans not to support the French in Indo China.

[Heathrow Harry]

The Americans had wanted the Freench out Indo China, the British out of Malaya and the Dutch out of Indonesia throughout WW" and actively obstructed their return

It was only after the Korean invasion they started to worry about the "advance" of th2 communist block into SE Asia - and by then Indonesia had gone nationalist and the French were a lost cause

[melmothtw]

We've clashed a few times over the years on PPRuNe SASLess, but I've got nothing but respect for what you and your comrades did in Vietnam.

It's a period of history I'm too young to have any knowledge of first hand, but have read a hundred books on the subject - Chickenhawk; 100 feet over hell; Cobra pilot; Naked in Danang; and Low Level Hell to name a few. If anyone hasn't read them, I thoroughly recommend that you do.

Am really enjoying the Vietnam documentary that is the subject of this thread. I take what some veterans here have said about its accuracy, but I guess it just goes to show how people going through the exact same experience can have totally differing and often contrary memories of it.

Your experience of visitng Vietnam after the war is interesting, SASless. One wonders if the veterans of today's wars will ever be able to visit Iraq and Afghanistan as tourists one day and share stories and experiences with former enemies. I somehow doubt it, sadly.

[SASless]

It is a tragedy that the US State Department didn't follow up on the recommendations of the OSS in 1945, to support Ho Chi Minh, as they did with Tito. The disaster that befell Indochina during the next forty years, could have been avoided.


So true...the Vietnam War need never have been an "American War" at all.

What I also found very interesting is there seems to be no hatred towards Americans....but the French seem to be very much hated.

The Tour Guides (in quiet conversations over a Beer or three) would invariably talk about the harsh treatment of the Vietnamese by the French. So many of the Prisons where POW's were held were all originally French built for the incarceration of political prisoners during their time in power.

[gums]

Salute!

What I also found very interesting is there seems to be no hatred towards Americans...As SAS and others have stated here, we warriors from that miserable time can meet and share a beer and even joke about "if you were a better shot I wouldn't be here!!"

Some have pointed out here that the northern Vee were much more nationalistic than communistic. So very true, and I have had a hard time over the last 45 years buying into Uncle Ho being a devout communist more than a devout patriot that wanted to kick the foreign powers out and have one country of their own.

I worked with the VNAF for almost three years helping a few dozen to become proficient in the A-37. When I went back in 1972 I had a chance to run an A-7 turnaround site at my old haunt - Bien Hoa. Hunted down some of my students, who were now in F-5's. They put on a "good" face, but I could see it in their eyes. They had lost faith in their government.

The Tampa Bay newspaper had this article some time ago, and although very emotional, it describes one of my closest friend's "closure". At the end, some of the pictures show that "bygones are bygones". I am in the "C-flight" picture. I also flew Sandy 3 for the Kansas rescue attempt, escorting and protecting the backup Jolly. Wound up escorting the wounded Jolly outta North Vietnam with the backup Jolly tagging along. That helo was shot up, folks, and finally was running on one motor.


Vietnam veteran's search for peace began with angst over image | Tampa Bay Times (http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/vietnam-veterans-search-for-peace-began-with-angst-over-image/1054812)

Another good account of folks going back can be had with yet another fellow pilot I flew with - "Bury Us Upside Down".


As Don put it in the epilog:

"I wasn't a hero, but I flew with men who were".

Gums sends...

[India Four Two]

What I also found very interesting is there seems to be no hatred towards Americans....but the French seem to be very much hated.

SASless,

In my time in Vietnam, I have had extensive dealings with people in government departments and in state-owned companies, and the majority of these people were of your and my vintage and were war veterans.

Of all the people I met, there was only one person who was openly anti-American. Everyone else was either neutral or welcoming. After the collapse of the USSR, Vietnam was no longer receiving aid from Russia and they needed foreign investment.

I vividly remember a meeting one day, that could have become unpleasant except for the polite behaviour of our Vietnamese hosts.We had gone to Vung Tau to sign a contract for helicopter service to an offshore oil rig. After the signing, the senior managers, who were all from the north, took us out to lunch.

During lunch one of our hosts mentioned, fairly casually, that he had been with an NVA regiment in South Vietnam for seven years. A somewhat naive member of our party asked him: "How often did you get R&R?"

The response was a polite and low-key repetition: "I was in the jungle for seven years."

[Pontius Navigator]

What I also found very interesting is there seems to be no hatred towards Americans....but the French seem to be very much hated.
Remember whose side the French were on in the 1942-45 war.

[Heathrow Harry]

Both IIRC..................

[SASless]

PN,

Memory serves me the French were on both sides during that war.

[Musician]

The Battle of Dakar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dakar) is an example for free French fighting Vichy French.

[India Four Two]

An interesting but not well known fact is that British troops were sent to Saigon in 1945 to take the surrender of the Japanese troops.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Vietnam_(1945–46)

They fought a six-month war against the Viet Minh before handing over to the French, who had finally got themselves organized.

British troops were also employed in a similar way in Indonesia. Dirk Bogarde wrote a very good novel called “A Gentle Occupation” based on his Army experience there.

[Heathrow Harry]

My old man finished up in Djakarta/Batavia in charge of a jeep load of Japanese NCO's armed to the teeth shooting up the Indonesian Nationalists in September 1945....

Needless to say it raised questions in his mind as to exactly why we'd gone to war and politics in general............

[SASless]

The Battle of Dakar is an example for free French fighting Vichy French.

Did both sides surrender?

[MPN11]

Did both sides surrender?

Naughty but rather funny :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, the author of the Dirty Dozen wrote a further novel about Indo-China. Novel maybe but instructive none the less. The French gendarmerie continued to act as colonial power with the Japanese exercising the real power. So yes, they were on both sides albeit not in the Far East. And it was the US supplying weapons to Ho Chi Min that he subsequently used against the French.

[SASless]

I made a joke in that post....but when I look back on the Indo-China War the French fought....I stand upright in respect of the gallantry shown by the Troops at Dien Bien Phu. There were people parachuting in right up the very last day or so....some of whom had never jumped in their lives.

Walking the ground and reading the history of the place is quite sobering.

[India Four Two]

PN,

Thanks for your post. I assume you are referring to "A Dirty Distant War", which I hadn't heard of. I'll have to add it to my Vietnam library

Another novel that's well worth reading is "Saigon" by Anthony Grey. It covers the period from the 1920s to 1970s. The American protagonist is (somewhat improbably) present at many of the key events in Vietnam during that period. It makes for compelling reading with a lot of history thrown in.

Walking the ground and reading the history of the place is quite sobering.

SASless,

I agree. Looking down from the tops of the French defensive outposts and visiting the French command bunker was, as you say, very sobering. A completely stupid decision by the French commanders to try and defend a location that could only be supplied by air.

[Heathrow Harry]

based of course on the sucessful (just) British battle at Imphal /Khohima...

but the VM had read the book as well...................

[SASless]

I42,

Being a pilot....I found reading about the Air Support of DBP and the valor of the aircrews (including some American Civilians) to worthy of note as well.

Walking among the fortifications on the hill with the Crater....thinking of the Men who were surrounded there with no real chance of escape....as Laos was a long way away through Viet Minh Lines...and no resupply of anything coming....that must have been a very lonely feeling.

About Forty China Air Transport (CAT) Pilots flew nearly Seven Hundred Missions in support of the French Forces during the Seige with several being killed.

Among them was a fellow nicknamed "Earthquake McGoon"....who must have been quite a character from the accounts of some folks I know who had flown with him at CAT.

CAT later became part of the CIA owned/operated Air America which became well known during the Vietnam War.


https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/earthquake-mcgoons-final-flight.html

[India Four Two]

SASless,

I agree about the air support efforts - very brave pilots. I had read about Earthquake McGoon before and I remembered an oil painting and other photos, which I re-discovered here:

Shootdown of McGoon (http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/CAT-149_McGoon.htm)

[Mr Mac]

India Four Two
Chris Robbins Book Air America is quite a good read on the subject of AA. Have to say I am also finding the series intresting, as Vietnam was the sound track to my own childhood so to speak. Amazing to see how politicians do not know how to get themselves out of certain situations necver mind backing the wrong horse so to speak !


SASless
I have also lived and worked in the "new" Vietnam, and have to say it is one of my favourite places I have had the good fortune to work. It is funny how North and South are still to this day different in outlook. As an outsider it appears that the South is steaming ahead while the north is still some way behind. It as thoe, yes the north won the war but is being beaten in the peace, and they can not quite understand how it happened !


Regards
Mr Mac


Regards
Mr Mac

[IcePaq]

My dad went to Nam a couple of years ago with some other combat pilots to meet the enemy pilots.

They quickly pushed aside any hard feelings and got to talking aviation.

Dad met one guy who made 12 gunnery passes on him in a Mig17 but he couldn't get the skyraiders that later got his wingman.

This year, the north and south viet pilots came to the midway museum to meet their former adversaries.

[Cat Funt]

Point of information- for some unfathomable reason, the BBC episodes are only 60mins long- so 10hrs in total. The original PBS version- which will air in the UK on PBS America in the Spring- is 18hrs.

[Wander00]

Local hero here is Marechal Jean Joseph Marie Gabriel de Lattre de Tassigny, GCB, MC was a notable French military commander during World War I and even more so in World War II and the First Indochina War. His son died in the Indo China war. He was born and later lived a few miles from here, in the same small village where Clemenceau also was born

[melmothtw]

Point of information- for some unfathomable reason, the BBC episodes are only 60mins long- so 10hrs in total. The original PBS version- which will air in the UK on PBS America in the Spring- is 18hrs.



Lack of ad breaks? Having watched US TV, it seems to break into advertisements every few minutes, and sometimes the ads seem to last as long as the programme.

[Cat Funt]

Lack of ad breaks? Having watched US TV, it seems to break into advertisements every few minutes, and sometimes the ads seem to last as long as the programme.



Nope. The full series is 18hrs long and is already available on DVD. PBS doesn't run ads in the US, as such, just promos for their other shows.

[westernhero]

So are saying the bbc has cut the episodes to fit the time slots ? Very sad if true.

[cvg2iln]

PN,

Memory serves me the French were on both sides during that war.

Possibly true as the french have always been all over the place.

Going to war without the French is like going hunting without an accordion.

[Cat Funt]

So are saying the bbc has cut the episodes to fit the time slots ? Very sad if true.


Can't say why they've done it, but they have. It's on BBC4, so I'd like to think that they'd credit their viewers with having a longer attention span than even the PBS-watching Seppo's. ;) They are broadcasting two episodes back to back, after all.


It's more likely that PBS sold them the Cliffnotes version in the hope of boosting DVD sales of the boxed set amongst those of us who are nerdy enough and too impatient to wait for the whole thing.

[megan]

Heads up to the series being transmitted on Oz tv commencing Saturday 9th Dec 1930 local. Should be available for a week I think on the following link. Guess it will appear under "War Stories" towards the bottom of the page.

https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/

[megan]

Series now available on youtube, search for "The Vietnam War 2017" on youtube to get a listing of all episodes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5-Dm6j6j5A