"Substitute" Pilots ?

[bafanguy]

Perhaps I'm missing something in this proposed concept. Is this an effort to organize and position a cadre of strike breakers ?


"Avia Solutions Group, managing one of the largest pilot centres in Eastern Europe BAA Training, has already entered several preliminary confidential contracts with large carriers to train a number of the so called substitute pilots. These companies are ready to cover the cost of training new pilots for several years. Following their training, these pilots shall gain the primary flying experience and accumulate flight hours in smaller airlines. Then, if there’s a pilot strike, the airline which has initially covered his or her training, can call upon the pilot to fill in the empty seat on a temporary or permanent basis."

https://aviationvoice.com/asg-e-35-m-investment-in-substitute-pilots-to-prevent-e-100-m-losses-2-201710041433/

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Perhaps I'm missing something in this proposed concept. Is this an effort to organize and position a cadre of strike breakers ?

I guess they couldn’t have stated it more clearly :yuk:

Just when you thought pay-to-fly was already the bottom...

[dirk85]

Professional scabs, that's nice.

[RAT 5]

Then, if there’s a pilot strike, the airline which has initially covered his or her training, can call upon the pilot to fill in the empty seat on a temporary or permanent basis."

I'm at a loss to understand the logic of this. Firstly, if the substitute pilots are 'called up' they will then leave their host airline in the lurch. That in itself would waken up the legal boys. Then there are the type rating courses required, even OCC's for type rated guys. They are not instantaneous and would require strike breaking instructors to help out. And then, just how long is this strike? It will take many weeks to 'replace' the regulars with substitutes, by which time the host airline is bust after a 2 month strike.
What a curious concept. And I thought BAA was based in Lithuania which is EU.

[seventhreedriver]

Am I the only one physically sick reading this article?

[Nick 1]

What if the " substitute pilots " will declare a so called " strike " ??

I wanna be part of that , sitting almost all the year around ,payed, waiting a strike happen somewhere...

[bafanguy]

I guess they couldn’t have stated it more clearly :yuk:

Well, the concept is so bizarre, I allowed for the possibility I'd read or interpreted it wrong.

I'm the victim of an American government school education so I have to be careful. ;)

[bafanguy]

It'd be interesting to know what carriers have already signed on with this program:

"...BAA Training, has already entered several preliminary confidential contracts with large carriers to train a number of the so called substitute pilots."

I thought there was a pilot shortage.:uhoh:

[Fanatic]

“Take, for instance, a bus driver. He or she is also responsible for safe transporting tens of people at a time. However, a bus driver isn’t paid a third of what a pilot is.” says G. Ziemelis.

What a dick. Tens vs hundreds of people. A PSV license requiring maybe £500-1000 of training costs vs £125,000, Oh and next time I have an engine failure I'll look for the hazard flashers and pull over to the side of the airway and call the AA. Had to check the date of the article after reading this.

The rest of the article has equal amount of fact I can assume?

[tescoapp]

How is having a load of FO's on standby going to keep things flying?

I get the feeling it its a wheeze to try and attract wannabies to spend cash.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Is it April 1st ?

[Piltdown Man]

An interesting concept worthy of a bean-counting despot with no understanding of how an airline actually works. In EASA land, all pilots have to be trained and checked according to their airline’s training manuals. Each has to have a minimum of 90 day currency. But let’s assume you have a pool of ‘substitute’ pilots full trained according to my company’s procedures. They’ll be sitting at home doing nothing, forgetting how to fly and work with our procedures and getting paid nothing. If I go on strike tomorrow my ‘substitute’ will have to be made current, pass a check, do their line training (40 flights) and come on line about about six weeks later. I think RAT was very optimistic with two weeks. Now tell me again how this works...

Either Avia Solutions are have a poor grasp of how airlines actually work and the regulations that EASA requires them to comply with or this is a another scam. So I think when Mr. Ziemelis says he is in talks with airlines, he doesn’t mean real ones that fly aeroplanes. What I think he is trying to sell training to poor victims who think they might get to fly with one.

But I could be wrong. We could go on strike and be replaced by ‘sustitutes’. Then you could possibly be flown by a complete crew with little or no recent experience. What could possibly go wrong?

A dreamer to be avoided at all costs.

[Reveal1]

I'm not willing to speand any word about this "rubbish".
BAA...avia solution...Small planet....stay away from aviation!!
that's real cancer!

[bafanguy]

Reveal1,

Yes, that's an understandable reaction. Little point in mounting a detailed prosecution of the proposal; it IS its own prosecution.

There's a long history of management people who harbor such thoughts (fantasies ?).

But it's so wacky that it's worth noting.

[bafanguy]

Stupid ideas abound worldwide.

In this case, the real question isn't the validity of the concept which is self-discrediting but which airlines signed "confidential contracts" to align themselves with it.

If the allegation is accurate, who are these airlines ?

There's little chance this could be kept "confidential". If they intended to keep it quiet, why is the guy who hatched this plot talking to the media ?

None of this adds up.

[Flocks]

Maybe they want to do like for the fighter jet pilots in some army. I mean reserve pilots.
So you have mister X, he is accoutant but reserve pilot as well for Z Airline, he is current, going to the SIM every 6 months and flying 10hr a months at least. Obviously paid only when he fly !
If there is a strike, he ll go and fly ! But don t forget he is an accountant too, he can do some office work during the cruise ! Amazing !

I suspect something like this ! Even if I really don't see the advantages for airlines, you see lots of strike in the airline business recently ? Lots of For ready to fly for nothing ... And reserve cpt ? I don't believe it ...
As said before, I suspect again some :mad: to make stupid people pay for their training or what ever

[parabellum]

The underwriters that provide the insurance for these aircraft, to be flown by 'substitute pilots', will be taking a good look at this, as will the regulator whose register the aircraft are on. Type rating, currency, IR currency, type of licence, company induction course including line training are requirements that will need to be met.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Wow, what a load of horse manure.

[Denti]

The underwriters that provide the insurance for these aircraft, to be flown by 'substitute pilots', will be taking a good look at this, as will the regulator whose register the aircraft are on. Type rating, currency, IR currency, type of licence, company induction course including line training are requirements that will need to be met.

The insurers are one point, however, there is an easy way around the regulator issue. Simply register your aircraft in ireland, they do not take any look as long as the paperwork seems halfway legit and the money keeps rolling in.

[Superpilot]

The one thing to keep your eyes on is airline management lobbying of EASA/xAA to be able to switch aircraft AOCs in under 24 hours. With that, professional scabs can man any airline's aircraft because their training is per the scab AOC.

[skyboy83]

“Take, for instance, a bus driver. He or she is also responsible for safe transporting tens of people at a time. However, a bus driver isn’t paid a third of what a pilot is.” says G. Ziemelis.

I suggest that pilot association should thank Mr Ziemelis and Europe airlines for their generosity..

Just we need to inform Mr Ziemelis that as we have a free market he can find pilots flying heavy jets with 2000E gross salary (if he is able).

A Pilot salary is not so high because someone did him a favour. Maybe someone needs to study more the law of demand and supply. Unforunately for him we dont live in communism.

[Dan Winterland]

There's no way a regulator of any standard would allow this. The only way to achieve this plan would to have a whole operation; aircraft, pilots. ops staff and engineering support in reserve. Can't see that happening.

[bafanguy]

Regardless of the otherworldly nature of the proposition or the slim chance of its implementation, this isn’t about manipulation of AOCs, who insures what, maintaining pilot currency, regulatory actions or anything of such mundane nature.

It’s about a plan to form a cadre of pilots to step forward and replace strikers (a rather bold move)…and the several airlines who have allegedly signed contracts to participate in said plan.

Perhaps Mr. Ziemelis is just blowing smoke; perhaps he’s not. The valuable info would be knowing which airlines so readily joined the effort. Would that influence one’s choice of potential employers ?

Privacy is an illusion. If “…several…large carriers…” have signed on to the plan, someone knows who they are.

And they should be revealed.

[RAT 5]

"Avia Solutions Group, managing one of the largest pilot centres in Eastern Europe BAA Training, has already entered several preliminary confidential contracts with large carriers to train a number of the so called substitute pilots. These companies are ready to cover the cost of training new pilots for several years."

Or could it be a ruse to help separate budding pilots from their hard earned cash? It might fill desperate cadets' eyes with rose petals, but not captains, and the plan needs both. Could it be a ruse to boost the short-term cash flow of a training centre.

[Direct Bondi]

An opportunist and reprehensible marketing scheme to convince pimple-faced pilot wannabes to part with their bank loan and/or parent’s money toward type training.

Airline CEO’s have no use for ‘substitute pilots’ to collaborate in undermining terms and conditions for striking pilots. Direct employment circumvention already permits rented pilots to be used immorally.

“Norwegian breaks the pilot strike in Norway by using Spain based crews” – Link:

http://www.sepla.es/en/sala-de-prensa/sepla-noticias/norwegian-neutraliza-la-huelga-de-sus-pilotos-en-noruega-con-sus-tripulaciones-de-espana/

[Smooth Airperator]

Avianca allowed to bring in foreign pilots amid strike-civil aviation


https://www.reuters.com/article/colombia-avianca/avianca-allowed-to-bring-in-foreign-pilots-amid-strike-civil-aviation-idUSL2N1ME0OB

[bafanguy]

An opportunist and reprehensible marketing scheme to convince pimple-faced pilot wannabes to part with their bank loan and/or parent’s money toward type training.

DB,

Perhaps. No shortage of possible motives here but the end goal of management is what's important.

[Rated De]

Could it be simply that as the pilot shortage due a demographic shift of never before magnitude accelerates airline management is desperate to contain their 'labour unit cost' as low as they can?



Pilotless aircraft inside 5 years?
Strike breaking airline pilots?
1989 pilot's strike threats about redundancy?
2011 Qantas grounding and lockout?

Alan Joyce at Qantas ought be studied, his language when announcing the 'terminal decline' of Qantas international in 2011, before the now 'transformed' repeatedly contained continued implied threats of job loss, for cabin crew,pilots and engineers...statement after statement.

This doom narrative is typical at most airlines (indeed corporates) as they maintain an adversarial Industrial Relations posture and huge numbers of staff specifically designed to contain wage expectations.

Michael O'Leary's (Ryanair)language until very recently was consistently condescending toward his pilots and included implied threats of cancelling leave and job losses.

This is standard adversarial labour relations.

Unfortunately for O'Leary he is now on bended knee to his pilots as the shortage bites.
Their model is set up to be the standard adversarial model to which airlines aspire.

The one glaring error in their model is that it necessitates unlimited supply.

Take the threats as just that; the beast thrashing around!

[JetpoweredMigrantWkr]

Am I the only one physically sick reading this article?

No, you are not alone. This is a terrible idea. It sounds as if it is a MOL scheme. The man has no shame when it comes to taking advantage of crews. He should be banned from aviation.

[flash8]

No, you are not alone. This is a terrible idea. It sounds as if it is a MOL scheme.

And to think years ago I thought nobody could hold their pilots in as low esteem and with as dodgy contracts as Niki! Shows you things can always sink lower.

The insurers are one point, however, there is an easy way around the regulator issue. Simply register your aircraft in ireland, they do not take any look as long as the paperwork seems halfway legit and the money keeps rolling in.

Somebody really needs to take a closer look at that cesspit.

[JetpoweredMigrantWkr]

Flash is right, this needs to be stopped. The regulatory level should stop this thing in its tracks before young pilots get in a bad spot.

[bafanguy]

I've been following the replies here hoping to learn how the legal/cultural differences in the EU might play in this scenario, an admittedly far fetched one.

I don't see the sense of outrage there such a plan would produce here in the USA. Our history has produced a scab list going back 50+ years; it still exists and circulates.

As for "young pilots", would these kids understand the maelstrom any participation in this scheme would bring down upon them...or maybe it wouldn't ? Would they not be branded as scabs for life ? There's no way their choices (leading to actions) would be a secret.

They'd be crossing a picket line to fly struck flying.

Or maybe, due to legal/cultural differences, there'd be no personal/career penalty to pay over there ?

Help me understand this.

[No Fly Zone]

I smell a rat. Something is very wrong with this idea.

[JaxofMarlow]

I've been following the replies here hoping to learn how the legal/cultural differences in the EU might play in this scenario, an admittedly far fetched one.

I don't see the sense of outrage there such a plan would produce here in the USA. Our history has produced a scab list going back 50+ years; it still exists and circulates.



The reason this has not produced a tirade of indignation in Europe is simply it is total :mad::mad:. Either it is a figment of some deluded soles imagination or a silly scam to extract money from the very desperate and stupid. We are quite used to such things here.