Unusual attitude recovery?

[n5296s]

A friend of mine - who is a fixed wing and gyrocopter pilot, but not heli - sent me the following question:

I was wondering, what's the standard procedure to recover from a nose-high attitude in a helicopter (in IMC)? How do you even recognize it (without an AI)? I've googled it briefly and ended up in a hole of contrasting opinions.

So here's my reply:

Honestly I have no idea. I've never practised unusual attitudes in a heli. For sure (in a Robbo) rolling into a knife edge doesn't strike me as a great idea, which is the fixed wing answer. If it was nose-high (not vertical) I guess I'd GENTLY push the cyclic forward, and GENTLY drop the collective, and see what happens.

Someone here must know the "right" answer...

[Bravo73]

Before you can answer your question, you need to answer this question: what are you doing in IMC without an AI??!?

[Apate]

Before you can answer your question, you need to answer this question: what are you doing in IMC without an AI??!?

Suicide mission ;)

[n5296s]

Well, yeah, I agree with that bit - I should have redacted that bit since he was just kidding there. But my original question remains - if for whatever reason you do find yourselves pointing skywards at 45 or 60 degrees, what do you do to recover?

[MightyGem]

Move the cyclic forward to bring the nose down.

[Flying Bull]

Well, helicopters don‘t like to fly nose up high anyway....
To get the nose anywhere near the horizon you need to attach horizontal stabilzers to the taiboom, which are upside down airofoils, pushing the tail down to raise the nose....
😜😜😜😜😜😜😜😜

Never flown in IMC without an AI
With modern helicopters, just press the „Maria HELP-button“, the AP will take over with IAS, ALT and HDG 😉

[SASless]

Power Setting? AKA....Collective Setting? Vertical Speed?

There are a few factors that bear on the outcome of the situation....AI or no AI.

One can wind up on basic instruments with no surface reference for various reasons....besides pure dumbass.

[Flying Bull]

Well, yeah, I agree with that bit - I should have redacted that bit since he was just kidding there. But my original question remains - if for whatever reason you do find yourselves pointing skywards at 45 or 60 degrees, what do you do to recover?

The bird will sink, the air catches the horizontal stab - and with nearly no Speed will push the nose down
(even if it is disigned to raise the nose normally)
Reminds me about fun in the Navy...
Was quite cool on the Lynx, flying backwards at higher speeds and then just giving a notch nose down - getting the bird into pointing vertical down 😉

[Letsby Avenue]

Wings level, Attitude, Speed, Power (WASP)

[FH1100 Pilot]

This is kind of a stupid scenario. Okay, so if you lower the nose, how much do you lower it and how do you know when it's enough? If you're in IMC in a helicopter without an AI you're basically dead. So don't worry about it is what I'm saying. Just freeze the controls.
It'll be over quick anyway.

[n5296s]

Please guys, I did already say to ignore the bit about IMC and the AI. I'masking a serious question. In perfect day VFR conditions, you hit wake turbulence (let's say) and suddenly find yourself pointing skywards - as determined by looking out of the window. Now what do you do?

As far as fixed wing goes, when I did my unusual attitude training (VFR), yes, if you're 60 degrees nose up, roll into a knife edge, wait for the nose to drop to near horizontal, roll back out of the knife edge. Works perfectly, in any airplane (doesn't need to be aerobatic although of course to be legal you should only be practising in an aerobatic aircraft). Otherwise you're likely to run out of airspeed. That will resolve itself SOMEHOW, but could well get you into a situation where the recovery is trickier than the above.

Seems to me that a heli will thoroughly dislike that attitude anyway, since the CG will be so far displaced (horizontally) from the centre of lift. So maybe it's a non issue and (if you could figure out how to get there in the first place) it would just sort itself out.

[fijdor]

Maybe you are expecting a more complicated answer to your question but it was already answered here and it is a very simple thing to do, just push the the nose forward (cyclic forward) but I would apply a little bit of power at the same time, you don't want to end up in mast bumping, keep the disk loaded in that case.
Depending on the situation, a pedal turn could be an option as well.

JD

[Flying Binghi]

...In perfect day VFR conditions, you hit wake turbulence (let's say) and suddenly find yourself pointing skywards - as determined by looking out of the window. Now what do you do?...



Do we have forward speed or no ?

In my basic training, after a low run across the paddock, the instructor put the 300 somewhere past 60º and when the speed decayed applied 'rudder' (aka, pedal turn) thus giving a nice 180º turn for the next low run across the paddock. I woulda thought this were part of every heli pilot training?

Couple of years back i had a National Parks chap on board and he pointed out where that Skyhooks singer pranged. I remember thinking of the irony of the sky hook name - no hook that day. Relavence here is there were a lotta comment around pilot circles of possible unusual attitude recovery technics.






.

[twinstar_ca]

Interesting video posted on YouTube on Pilot Yellow's channel... He runs a helicopter flight school in BC, Canada. He and another pilot went out in a Cabri and did some flying where the PF could not see outside. He (as the PNF) monitored and kept everything with the spinny side up but is a VERY enlightening video!!!

[army_av8r]

As a military pilot, and instrument flight examiner, I suppose I had made some assumptions. Our flight task for inadvertent IMC, and unusual attitudes are very similar. They are obviously very different situations, but one can quickly become the other. The immediate action steps are, in this order... attitude, heading, torque, airspeed, trim(yaw). Attitude, set the aircraft to a level attitude in both pitch and roll. Heading, use your current heading and only induce a turn to avoid known obstacles. Torque, set the torque or power for hover, climb, or cruise (based on conditions/ airspeed). Airspeed, select and maintain an airspeed, if IMC, best endurance is a good starting point (50-80knots depending on type)... and finally Trim, verify the ball is centered. I could have an entire evening conversation on the subject, each type requires specific adjustments based on aircraft performance, but this should be enough to go in the right direction. Airplanes require certain actions to maintain airspeed energy, nose high add power, nose low reduce power. Helicopters don't needed as much focus on that energy except in the most extreme conditions.typically levelling the aircraft and applying hover power will be enough to buy me a few seconds. So, basic aircraft control is at the forefront of this task. I sincerely hope this helps

[Lonewolf_50]

[I]I was wondering, what's the standard procedure to recover from a nose-high attitude in a helicopter (in IMC)? How do you even recognize it (without an AI)? What I want you to do is this: buy a life insurance policy for this gent in the amount of about 200,000 pounds/euros/dollars. Pay the premium. You'll collect within a few years. Some people need to be kept away from the controls of aircraft. This is one such, who appears to be unable to help himself. While you are at it, do your family a favor and keep your feet on the ground, and your hands away from flight controls.
In perfect day VFR conditions, you hit wake turbulence (let's say) and suddenly find yourself pointing skywards - as determined by looking out of the window. Now what do you do? That is the question of a passenger, not a pilot. I was almost joking in the initial response, but when I considered your follow up question, I am less joking and more interested in you living a long and fruitful life.

[[email protected]]

If you are VFR and hit enough wake (or other) turbulence to suddenly put you 60 degrees nose up, you have probably overstressed the aircraft (especially something small like R22) and major structural failure is likely.

A sudden snap to 60 degrees nose up from cruise speed is about a 4 to 5g pull, perhaps more.

And, in a teetering head helo, your natural reaction will be to push forwards with the cyclic, probably inducing mast bumping as the g reduces and the probability of MR to tail boom contact.

If your chum actually wants to know how to do wingovers and pedal turns in a helicopter, that is a different conversation.

Flying Bull - with you on having fun in the Lynx:ok:

[Ascend Charlie]

In every school in which I instructed, we taught the students to deal with UAs. In day VFR, turn it into a wingover, or rotorover, by rolling to whichever side is favoured, keep gentle back pressure in until the nose is almost back to the horizon, then roll wings level - but on a different heading. Once it is all stable, turn back to where you want to go.

In IMC (in an IFR aircraft) in a teetering head machine, if the wings are nearly level but nose is high, gently lower the nose while applying a small amount of collective to load the disc. If the wings are not level, or airspeed is rapidly dropping, use same as day VFR, a gentle turn with back pressure, let the nose come down, roll level.

[[email protected]]

AC - I agree with everything else in your post but thisIf the wings are not level, or airspeed is rapidly dropping, use same as day VFR, a gentle turn with back pressure, let the nose come down, roll level is almost certainly likely to result in further disorientation and a worsening of the UA.

Turning and acceleration errors are what cause the leans and often lead to the UA - get the wings level first, adjust the attitude to control the speed and add/subtract power as required.

WASP - as mentioned earlier by Letsby, is the standard recovery (with some small variations in terminology) for all 3 Brit Mil services.

All of the above needs to be done positively but gently since many pilots aggravate the UA by being too 'punchy' with their recovery technique.

[Arm out the window]

Pretty simple - just gently ease the nose to the closest horizon, set around hover power with collective and keep it straight with pedal.

Don't slam the cyclic forward, just go gently and mast bump won't be an issue.

[BOBAKAT]

Speed/bank/Pray after me .......

[n5296s]

Many thanks to those who supplied constructive answers to the questions (mighty gem, fijdor, flying binghi, ascend charlie, arm out the window) and to those who gave amusing anecdotes, useful insights, etc. Fewer thanks to the handful who took the question as an opportunity to wave their (presumably diminutive) body parts - one in particular who I've now blocked. Just because you think it's a silly question, doesn't mean that I - or my friend - are about to go and do stupid things. But then, this is Pprune.

[[email protected]]

Yes, it is pprune and it is the internet - however your original question was rather vague and you never stipulated how you might 'find' yourself at 45 - 60 degrees nose up - that doesn't happen unless you are experimenting or seriously not paying attention.

Remember the term Unusual Attitude is usually reserved for instrument flight.

If I was VMC I would turn it into a wingover but IMC push the nose forward with power applied.

[n5296s]

To be honest I have no idea how you could find yourself at that kind of angle in a heli (or gyrocopter for that matter, which is what my friend is really interested in). It was more of a theoretical question. I know what to do in a plane, but really not sure in a heli or GC. Seems to me barring some major upset (and I'm sure you're right that wake turbulence enough to do that would do some serious damage), the only way you'd get there would be by not paying attention for quite a while - as you say.

When I did VFR seriously-unusual attitude training (in an aerobatic aircraft) the way we got to 60° nose up was simple enough. My instructor pulled us through the first 60° of a loop then said "open your eyes and recover". Not sure I know anyone who'd do that in a heli... (btw that training - though not specifically this item - probably did save my life when I got caught in a lee-side rotor).

Anyway thanks for all the answers.

[Flying Binghi]

I had a look for the prang i mentioned in prior post...

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/aair/aair200104092.aspx


Here's the wikipedia reference. As always, i don't trust wikicrap though it reads roughly what i remember:

"...Strachan was killed in a helicopter accident on 29 August 2001. He had been a fixed-wing pilot for many years and had been undergoing training for a helicopter pilot's licence, with a view to buying a helicopter and taking friends and family on surfing safaris. On a solo flight near Mount Archer, Queensland in clear weather and inexplicably off the course planned by his instructor, Strachan encountered mountain turbulence which caused the rotor of his Bell 47G to sever the tailboom, crashing the helicopter onto a mountain slope. The day Strachan died was, coincidentally, the day an ABC documentary episode on rock and roll in Australia, It's a long Way to the Top, that referenced the Skyhooks, aired on TV..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Strachan






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[paco]

I remember Ken Kendall rushing into the office in Glasgow one day wanting several cups off coffee as he had been rolled in his 206 in turbulence somewhere in the highlands.... he said he was so glad he went with it rather than trying to fight it.

[[email protected]]

Had the same at SARTU in 1990 when one of the C Flight SAR pilots got turned almost inverted when hit by a massive updraught in the hover over Tryfan - fortunately before they put the winchman over the side of the Wessex.

He came in ashen faced wanting to talk to a QHI:)

[JimEli]

To be honest I have no idea how you could find yourself at that kind of angle in a heli...

EMxuO77mdQo

[fijdor]

he had been rolled in his 206 in turbulence somewhere in the highlands

Talk about unusual attitude, many years ago up in the Arctic during the Uranium rush I was coming back to the Inuit village we were working out of for fuel, the village was situated on the sea at the bottom of the valley and we were working up on the plateau, probably 1500 ft high, so coming back toward the village in a B206 on floats at about 150 ft above ground and about 80/90 mph with barely any fuel left i was just lowering the collective to pass the ridge and start coming down toward the village when I was hit by an updraft coming up from the valley and the 206 was flipped upside down in a matter of milliseconds and I am looking at the Inuit village from the skylight window and falling upside down, my reaction (reflexes) was to pull pitch and push right pedal. The next thing I remember was landing by the drums for fuel. Done for the day. Till this day, still don't remember which way the aircraft went right side up but it did.
From that time on coming back for fuel, I would slow down to a crawl and face the ridge at a 90deg angle not 45 deg and high speed before getting over it and down.

JD

[army_av8r]

Very easy to get into these positions and attitudes while teaching combat maneuvering flight. Vey common to be 50-60 degrees nose up and also rolled 120 degrees either side. Followed by 60 degrees down still inverted at 160 knots. All is well if done correctly, but the unusual attitude recovery I mentioned earlier is a great help when a 350 hour new guy makes a mistake, or just does "new guy" things. I do at least one UA demo during every CMF flight for this exact reason. Focusing on G loading, determining attitude, and how to manage aircraft and rotor energy to extract maximum performance during the recovery.

[SASless]

I hope you mention "Altitude(Height)" as well as Attitude.

[army_av8r]

Very true, it is incorporated in the training, but we typically start at an altitude high enough that it is not a factor for the new guys, haha. But yes, recovery arcs, altitude, power available, and a whole list of other topics go into a maneuvering flight ground training session prior to the flight, for everyone reading... none of these responses should be considered substitute for proper instruction! :)

[n5296s]

@army_av8r: where can I sign up for that!? (I don't think the army would accept me at my advanced years).

[army_av8r]

not sure, aside from the local recruiting office, haha.

[[email protected]]

get me a ticket to California and a Mk7 Lynx and I'll show you:):ok:

[n5296s]

The ticket could probably be arranged, the Lynx would be harder. But I could probably get hold of an R44, I know how much you like them :uhoh:

[JimEli]

FWIW.

I was slightly shocked reading some of the responses here, reference the unusual attitude recovery technique. After researching the topic further, I notice many references seem to confuse an Unusual Attitude Recovery procedure with an Inadvertent IMC (IIMC) encounter. The distinction is important, because IIMC does not necessarily imply an unusual attitude, and an unusual attitude doesn’t always imply IMC.

One deals with a potential, imminent or apparent loss of control, while the other assumes control is not in doubt, and is an aid to prevent an upset.

The typically quoted unusual attitude recovery procedure is more often the lengthier IIMC encounter procedure. It can be found in the FAA Helicopter Handbook, Chapter 12 (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook/media/hfh_ch12.pdf):
1. Attitude
2. Heading
3. Power
4. Airspeed
5. Trim

IMHO, the appropriate unusual attitude recovery procedure (the immediate action), is more akin to:
1. Attitude
2. Power
3. Trim
After regaining control, proceed if necessary with the detailed and lengthier IIMC procedure.

It appears many current US Army references combine the two procedures. Search for an older copy of an Army TC (http://uvaf.atwebpages.com/uh60manual.pdf) and you’ll find the distinction. I know, because I helped write many an older procedure.

“To recover from an unusual attitude, correct the pitch and bank attitude, adjust power, and trim the aircraft as required to return to level flight. All components are changed simultaneously with little lead of one over the other. The displacement of controls used in recoveries may be greater than those for normal flight. Care must be taken in making adjustments as straight-and-level flight is approached. The instruments must be observed closely to avoid overcontrolling.”

Some may call this splitting hairs. Point taken.

[BOBAKAT]

To be honest I have no idea how you could find yourself at that kind of angle in a heli (or gyrocopter for that matter, which is what my friend is really interested in).

Anyway thanks for all the answers.


Please take care, Gyro is not Helo.... If you have 60° nose up in Helo, simply push the the cyclique ...The rotor turn always
If you do that with a Gyro you are a dead man...the rotor will stop in less than 3 seconds....
On a Gyro, you have to load the rotor first ( straight turn and then nose down....

[[email protected]]

Good point BOBAKAT - most pilots know that loading the rotor will increase RRPM due to flare effect but, unless they have been shown it, probably don't know that the opposite happens too - unloading the rotor with a reduction in G reduces the RRPM markedly.

Since an autogyro is in permanent autorotation, reducing the Nr by shoving the stick forward would be very bad indeed.

[n5296s]

The origin of this question is that my friend is looking at the CPL requirements for gyrocopter. Turns out they require 2.5 hrs of hood time (strange amount, half what's needed for a heli and half again for fixed wing), including unusual attitude recovery. Presumably that just means relatively gentle stuff under the hood. But it got him thinking about seriously unusual attitudes.

Thinking more about the dynamics of a GC I guess just holding back stick and keeping a careful eye on RRPM (just like a heli auto) ought to work. There's nowhere near enough lift to turn that into a loop, so the nose will slowly drop to a more normal attitude, and then you can just fly out of it. Does that make sense? (I'm not a GC pilot and have no particular ambition to be one, though it was fun the one time I tried it).

[[email protected]]

Yes, as long as he keeps the rotor loaded with positive G then flying it much like a FW is probably the best option.

[GS-Alpha]

When recovering from inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in an autogyro, just holding back stick will probably end up killing you. At 60 degrees nose up, you are going to very quickly end up with no forward airspeed. You would then start a tail slide with the tail flicking around rapidly, and then suddenly find yourself with about a 60 degree nose down attitude, and quite possibly such a low rotor rpm, that you'll be unable to recover. I would recommend never getting to 60 degrees nose up or 60 degrees nose down. But the standard recovery from unusual attitudes in an autogyro involve removal of power, rolling level and selecting cruise attitude, and then reapplying power and trim. If recovering from nose high, smooth forward cyclic is required to avoid unloading the disc too much. Waiting a moment before reapplying power is also wise, to allow the rotors to stabilise.

Inadveratent 60 degrees nose up in a teetering rotorhead helicopter - again, I don't recommend even being there. Helicopter recovery has already been mentioned so I won't repeat, other than to highlight that stalled control surfaces do not feature in unusual attitude recovery in a helicopter.

Inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in a fixed wing? You most definitely wouldn't 'just turn it into a knife edge' as a first resort! How are you planning on doing that? With ailerons? Are you stalled or close to it? If you are, you've just entered a spin and made things much worse. I do not believe you were taught that action as a technique for recovering from an unusual attitude. You may have been taught to do it to abandon a loop or some other intentionally entered aerobatic manoeuvre, but inadvertent 60 degrees nose up? No way is that a safe first course of action.

If your friend is wondering about a CPL(G) I'm guessing he or she already has a PPL(G). They should therefore already know the recovery technique from unusual attitudes. If they do not, I recommend they book themselves a quick refresher lesson. Recovery on instruments is no different to in VMC, and I cannot imagine you would be expected to recover from any different attitudes than those required in VMC for the PPL.

[[email protected]]

Judging by your website GS Alpha (if I have followed the clue in your moniker) you are certainly the expert when it comes to gyrocopters so N5296s' chum should heed your advice:ok:

[n5296s]

@GS-Alpha - many thanks for the detailed reply.

Inadvertent 60 degrees nose up in a fixed wing? You most definitely wouldn't 'just turn it into a knife edge' as a first resort! How are you planning on doing that? With ailerons? Are you stalled or close to it? If you are, you've just entered a spin and made things much worse. I do not believe you were taught that action as a technique for recovering from an unusual attitude. You may have been taught to do it to abandon a loop or some other intentionally entered aerobatic manoeuvre, but inadvertent 60 degrees nose up? No way is that a safe first course of action.


Honestly I think the whole topic is interesting but academic. How are you ever going to be 60° nose-up unintentionally? Ignoring serious lack of attention, the only way is to cross some pretty hefty wake turbulence, which as Crab says is likely to make the unusual attitude the least of your worries.

That said, the technique for sure works, in fixed wing. Given a choice between an early-stage spin (easily recovered, and yes, I have, many times) and a tailslide (who knows what it will do to a non-aerobatic airframe?) I'll take a spin every time. In FW, it's also fine to push the nose down to 0G, whereupon the ailerons will work right down to practically 0 KIAS. (Goes without saying the unusual attitude recovery training also includes spin recovery, which IS a likely "unusual attitude", relatively speaking).

GC unusual attitude recovery training seems distinctly patchy, in my friend's experience. That's why he's asking.

[army_av8r]

Unusual attitude recovery in a GC reminds me a lot of unusual attitudes in powered paragliders, or paramotors. They specifically rely on upflow to maintain wing form/ positive pressure. Very similar to the autorotative properties a GC needs. If i find myself unstable under a fabric wing, i set the controls for symmetry and a generally level attitude (sometimes, this attitude may be in reference to the relative flight path, not the horizon) i then maintain positive G's until i can recover the aircraft to normal flight. The big difference is that a paramotor can suffer a full collapse and still recover, a GC typically cannot. Vey good to have these discussions between professionals, i certainly always learn something from the rumours.

[n5296s]

Judging by your website GS Alpha
I'd love to read more.... any chance of a bigger clue? (OK, got it, wasn't that hard after all).

When I first saw a modern GC, and did my 0.8 hours in one, it seemed like a lot of fun and pretty safe considering it's constantly in autorotation. But now, the more I learn about ways they can kill you, the more I like my 182, and even the R44! I think I'd want about 250 hours of GC time before I'd be willing to solo.

[GS-Alpha]

I wonder whether you are both looking at the same website? I have not got one though...

It would appear you have not been asking about recovery from unusual attitudes after all. If you are thinking you would be happy to enter a spin and then recover, you are just talking about having some aerobatic fun. We are definitely not discussing the same thing, which in my case is a fool proof means to return to normal controlled flight with minimum height loss. Your fixed wing technique definitely does not fit that description.

[[email protected]]

Well this must be a hell of a coincidence then Gyrocopter Flying Lessons in Wiltshire (http://www.gyrocoptertraining.co.uk/)

It's a long time since I did jet training in the 80s but IIRC, in order to get into a spin, you needed more than just a wingdrop in a stall - you needed a lot of rudder to make it go as well. And incipient spin recovery was just centralise everything and let it fly out - I used that a lot when I porked my aeros, never could hack the reverse noddy stall turn.

[GS-Alpha]

Crab, the aircraft you flew was clearly designed to avoid spinning. Why do you think so many people have died trying to recover from a spin if they are so difficult to get into and so easy to recover from? Why does every PPL(A) get taught to pick up a dropped wing using rudder when close to the stall?

Anyone new to any of these aircraft, please completely ignore this thread and listen to your instructor.

[[email protected]]

The Jet Provost was an excellent trainer and was used to teach entry to and recovery from spinning, both incipient and high rotational for many years (but not inverted spinning on the 3A).

Yes, different FW will have different spinning characteristics just as many helicopters have different handling vices.

I'm not saying you can't use rudder to pick up a wing - I'm saying that full pro-spin entry was throttle closed, aft stick and full rudder.

I did also say the incipient spin recovery was straight forward not the full spin recovery.

I'm sure basic PPL(A) stall and spin recovery is slightly more tame than what the RAF did trying to create future fighter pilots. Do they learn high-rotational spin recovery for example?

[ShyTorque]

(but not inverted spinning on the 3A).

But it will spin inverted, believe me!

[CappyJax]

I dont think most people know what 60 degrees nose up looks like. 30 degrees nose up feels pretty darn vertical. You cant see the ground in front of you at 30 degrees in most helicopters. The technique for helicopters nose up is the same for fixed wing. No, not a knife edge, but a gentle bank to allow the nose to drop. This allows for a constant loading of the wings/rotor. You never want to consider pushing the nose over, because in the real scenario, you wont have any feel for the g loading. With adrenaline pumping, your inputs will be exaggerated. If you are in IMC and you unload the rotor, you will see your intruments show you are rolling and you are going to react to the tail rotor rolling the helicopter with opposite cyclic and we all know what happens then. I recommend rolling to the right, because if you are in a tetering system, rolling to the right rolls the rotor in the same direction as TR roll if you do happen to unload the rotor with excessive pitch down inputs. If you fly a semi-rigid system with CW rotation, then roll left. But, come to think of it, I dont know of any.

[[email protected]]

You never want to consider pushing the nose over, because in the real scenario, you wont have any feel for the g loadingI don't believe that to be the case and certainly wouldn't say NEVER push forward since it may well be the safest course of action. Your advice only really applies to teetering head type rotors that are likely to get mast bumping (or worse as you describe) as the rotor is unloaded.

A gentle reselection of the level attitude along with application of power should be safe enough, even in an R22.

If you are disorientated enough to have allowed 30 plus degrees nose up in IMC, going into a turn will just make things far worse - if you have never had the leans or struggled with disorientation in IMC then it will come as a horrible shock.

[CappyJax]

My advice works for all helicopters, and airplanes for that matter. It is just critical in a teetering system, and less so in carbureted airplanes, and carbureted helicopters of any rotor system. You have to ask yourself, why would this technique be taught in airplanes, where immediate risk of death is not a concern, but not taught in helicopters? If you over pitch you risk death, if you over roll, your biggest risk is likely a nose down unusual attitude of which the first step is to roll level.

Disorientation is far from the only cause of unusual attitudes. Autopilot/SAS failure, instrument failure, turbulence, loss of attention, etc. are all far more likely causes. In fact, I would guess that disorientation is the least likely cause of unusual attitudes in proficient instrument pilots. The leans are also not caused from coordinated turns. They are cause from abrupt aircraft and head movements. As far as I can recall, I have never given myself the leans after my initial instrument training. Every time I have had them since, it was a students lack of coordination that gave me the leans, or moderate or greater turbulence. But if you have the leans, it doesn't matter if you are trying to maintain level flight or a turn, both will require ignoring the feelings and relying on your instruments.

I have had many hooded students push the nose forward abruptly in nose high unusual attitudes during training. It is difficult to convey "gentle" when their adrenaline is pumping and they just want out of that attitude. If you were in IMC and in an unusual attitude, your ability to be gentle will be much more compromised by your adrenaline than students in training.

I fly many different types of airplanes and helicopters, and I don't want to have to remember a specific technique for a specific type of aircraft should I find myself in an UA. I would rather just use one technique that is safe and works for all aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Cappyjax - let me get this straight - you are advocating that from a nose-high, low-speed UA in IMC, you should roll into a turn and let the nose drop?

How is that in any way a recovery from the UA? - it is more likely to put you in another, far worse one. At what point do you think a nose down, high speed UA with bank on is a better scenario than the nose high low speed one? That one will kill you far quicker - it's taking you towards the ground at a high RoD.

I don't know how much actual IMC time you have but disorientation is most definitely a big cause of UAs, often following a loss of situational awareness, and the leans can get you at any time, regardless of what you are doing with your head.

Try flying a constant AoB turn IMC at constant speed for more than a minute or two and then roll wings level - now roll into a turn the other way and tell me how comfortable that is.

Like all things aviation, your recovery from a UA will be determined by how well you were trained and, more importantly, how often you practice those recoveries. A well trained and current instrument pilot should easily be able to control their pitch rate during recovery - if you are neither then you shouldn't be in cloud.

[CappyJax]

Cappyjax - let me get this straight - you are advocating that from a nose-high, low-speed UA in IMC, you should roll into a turn and let the nose drop?

Yes

How is that in any way a recovery from the UA? - it is more likely to put you in another, far worse one. At what point do you think a nose down, high speed UA with bank on is a better scenario than the nose high low speed one? That one will kill you far quicker - it's taking you towards the ground at a high RoD.

No, it is not more likely to cause a nose down, high speed, UA with bank. However, that is far more favorable than having the rotor separate from the mast. If you think it is far more likely that a pilot will over control the recovery with a turn to drop the nose, why do you think they are less likely to over control a recovery by lowering the nose? If they can gently lower the nose to recover, then they can certainly roll level at the proper time to prevent a nose low unusual attitude with a banking recovery. However, like I just said, if they can't lower the nose gently, they die immediately, whereas if they can't roll level from my recommended technique, they at least have a second chance to recover.

I don't know how much actual IMC time you have but disorientation is most definitely a big cause of UAs, often following a loss of situational awareness, and the leans can get you at any time, regardless of what you are doing with your head.

Over 1,000 of actual IMC, with around 700 hours of that teaching/mentoring.

IATA statistics show that LOC accidents are a results of 37% weather, 37% aircraft malfunction, 24% engine malfunction, and so on down the line. They don't specifically mention disorientation or the "leans". That might be in the 8% "other" category.

Try flying a constant AoB turn IMC at constant speed for more than a minute or two and then roll wings level - now roll into a turn the other way and tell me how comfortable that is.

Are you saying you can't perform a simple hold without getting the leans? That is a one minute standard rate turn. Turning for more than a minute is not a standard procedure in IFR. This is why holds are racetrack patterns and not circles. Also, you are conflating the leans with disorientation. They are two different things. When I have had the leans, I was not disoriented. I know exactly the position of the aircraft and what needs to be done. A pilot can be disoriented without the leans. You could be confused about your actual heading based on conflicting cockpit indications. You are disoriented, but you don't have the leans.

Like all things aviation, your recovery from a UA will be determined by how well you were trained and, more importantly, how often you practice those recoveries. A well trained and current instrument pilot should easily be able to control their pitch rate during recovery - if you are neither then you shouldn't be in cloud.

Have you ever had an emergency or a very scary movement where you thought you were going to die? Because I have. I remember once after a bird came through the chin bubble of a Long Ranger at 1:30 in the morning, I was hovering for 10 minutes because I couldn't set down after I diverted to the nearest airport. I had so much adrenaline pumping that every tiny movement I made was exaggerated 10 fold. If you think you know how you are going to react in a real situation because you did it in training, you are the one in for a shock. You can't hear anything, you can't feel anything, your mind becomes hyper focused, sometimes on the wrong items, that you may be completely missing important details. You will over control the aircraft no matter how much training you have. I had an actual engine failure in an R22 likely due to carb ice, a long time ago. I was performing maybe 20 - 30 touchdowns a week with students and was very proficient at them. I can tell you that real touchdown was not pretty. I over flared, ballooned, over pitched, ran out of energy and wasn't straight when I bounced along the field. I was lucky that no damage occurred. However, I have heard of pilots with far more skill and experience and an even greater proficiency doing touchdowns in much higher energy rotor system aircraft, and they end up on their sides when they had a real engine failure. They were unlucky.

Let me ask you this. If you were in a nose high turning UA, how would you recover? Would you roll level first then lower the nose, or would you maintain the bank until the nose was lowered, then roll level?

[[email protected]]

Wings level - then select the correct pitch attitude to correct the speed then adjust power and balance.

They all need to happen relatively quickly but smoothly, but it is always wings level first.

Every pilot who has been trained by the Brit Mil will have done the same thing and I suspect exactly the same is taught in civil flying for UA recovery.

Your advice is based on mast-bumping paranoia with Robinson aircraft (none of which are supposed to go IMC anyway) and even on that you would have to unload the rotor very smartly to get to even mast-bumping, let alone rotor separation.

My IMC flying has included a lot more challenging situations than a simple IFR hold (which I also teach) - mixed IMC/VMC day and night over water at low level, doing coastal letdowns to SAR rescue positions and in the mountains so I do have a vague idea about disorientation, the leans and loss of SA.

I didn't say you had to be disorientated to have the leans, I said it was often a precursor to it because of confusion interpreting the cockpit information. Loss of SA can easily lead to the leans IMC if you are hand flying the aircraft.

I have had plenty of scary moments where, despite the adrenaline, my training kicked in and I didn't crash - try hovering/manouevering at night, in and out of cloud and rain, with the rotors 10 feet from the hundreds of feet of vertical cliff and a winchman on 150' of cable when the winch operator calls 'Up Up' as he sees a rock promontory too close to the TR - the potential for the leans, disorientation and being bloody scared is quite high.

It's all about training.

WASP - wings level, attitude selection, speed and power - that way you only have to remember one drill that ALWAYS works.

[CappyJax]

Wings level - then select the correct pitch attitude to correct the speed then adjust power and balance.

They all need to happen relatively quickly but smoothly, but it is always wings level first.

Every pilot who has been trained by the Brit Mil will have done the same thing and I suspect exactly the same is taught in civil flying for UA recovery.

Just because someone teaches it someway doesn't mean it is the best method. Especially the military. They love the KISS method even if it isn't the best way to do things. Might I point out the large number of mass bumping accidents in the US military?

If you are nose high and you roll wings level, you are increasing your vertical component of lift by rolling out first, so it is counter productive. Staying in the bank or increasing back decreases your vertical component of lift thereby lowering the nose WITHOUT pitching forward and unloading the rotor system. When you are nose low, you want to increase the vertical component of lift by rolling level first, then raise the nose. If you raise the nose first while still in the bank, you will tighten your turn and increase the load greater than if level.


Your advice is based on mast-bumping paranoia with Robinson aircraft (none of which are supposed to go IMC anyway) and even on that you would have to unload the rotor very smartly to get to even mast-bumping, let alone rotor separation.

Unusual attitudes are in no way exclusive to flying in IMC.

There are IFR certified helicopters with teetering rotor systems.

My IMC flying has included a lot more challenging situations than a simple IFR hold (which I also teach) - mixed IMC/VMC day and night over water at low level, doing coastal letdowns to SAR rescue positions and in the mountains so I do have a vague idea about disorientation, the leans and loss of SA.

I didn't say you had to be disorientated to have the leans, I said it was often a precursor to it because of confusion interpreting the cockpit information. Loss of SA can easily lead to the leans IMC if you are hand flying the aircraft.

I have had plenty of scary moments where, despite the adrenaline, my training kicked in and I didn't crash - try hovering/manouevering at night, in and out of cloud and rain, with the rotors 10 feet from the hundreds of feet of vertical cliff and a winchman on 150' of cable when the winch operator calls 'Up Up' as he sees a rock promontory too close to the TR - the potential for the leans, disorientation and being bloody scared is quite high.


Putting your self in a challenging situation is NOT THE SAME as having something unexpected happen. You knew what to expect. When you have a real emergency that scares the crap out of you, you will react far differently. Only a fraction of your training remains in your head. You go back to basics. Survival mode if you will. Unless whoever trains you is willing to do something to scare the crap out of you while training, your training will not match in anyway to a real life scenario. Many real life emergencies are far too dangerous to train in the aircraft, which is why we have simulators. But the simulator won't reproduce that rush of adrenaline you feel when you think you are about to die.

It's all about training.

WASP - wings level, attitude selection, speed and power - that way you only have to remember one drill that ALWAYS works.

I'd take someone with a lot of experience before someone with a lot of training any day. Training can help you get out of trouble, but experience helps prevent you from getting into trouble.

[[email protected]]

Just because someone teaches it someway doesn't mean it is the best methodYet you claim 'your' way is superior to one that is validated by thousands of instructors across the world???

What is the official FAA recovery method?

If you are nose high and you roll wings level, you are increasing your vertical component of lift by rolling out first, so it is counter productive. Staying in the bank or increasing back decreases your vertical component of lift thereby lowering the nose WITHOUT pitching forward and unloading the rotor system. so, lets take 30 degrees nose up and 20 degrees bank - what is happening to your speed? It is RAPIDLY decreasing.

Maintaining that bank and maintaining that back pressure to load the rotor decays your speed even further.

Increasing your bank and holding that back pressure decays your speed further.

So imagine when you looked in and realised you were in a UA instead of the 90kt cruise you wanted - by the time you get to 30 nose up your speed is likely less than 60 kts, by the time you recognise the problem it is down to 40, by the time you start to take corrective action it is probably 20 and still decaying fast.

Now roll on bank - speed still reducing until the nose gets down to the horizon - so very low to zero airspeed with maybe 30 degrees or more AoB and you are dead already in an unstabilised single.

Alternatively, from the same UA, roll the wings level and put the nose on the horizon (don't lower the collective, in order to maintain loading) - almost immediately the speed stops decaying AND you have the wings level. Now you can select an accelerative attitude to recover to your cruise speed and readjust your altitude back to your assigned level.

In your scenario you just make things worse and are still in a UA, just a different one.

In my scenario, you get back to straight and level flight quickly with minimum height loss and little further chance of disorientation.

Unusual attitudes are in no way exclusive to flying in IMCbut that is what most of this thread is about - IMC recovery from UAs.

There are IFR certified helicopters with teetering rotor systems. sure but we are talking primarily about single engine unstabilised helicopters - have you got any actual IMC time on them?

We still train Army pilots on the unstabilised Gazelle AH1 on which I only have about 500 hours but single pilot IFR in IMC is common practice on this aircraft - guess what UA recovery technique we use? Even in something as good as a Gazelle, rolling into a low speed turn from 30 degrees nose up is going to put you in a world of pain.

Colleagues of mine teach on the 212 and they use exactly the same UA recovery technique - WASP.

Putting your self in a challenging situation is NOT THE SAME as having something unexpected happen that's why the situations ARE challenging, exactly because you don't know what is going to happen - if you don't think suddenly finding yourself IMC in the mountains at night in icing conditions isn't an emergency then you are a braver man than me.

I'd take someone with a lot of experience before someone with a lot of training any day. Training can help you get out of trouble, but experience helps prevent you from getting into trouble. lovely idea but ideally you want both and every pilot has to gain experience somehow - best to train for it so it is easier to deal with it when things do go wrong - and they do, even to very experienced pilots.

[CappyJax]

Have you ever tried a recovery from a nose high attitude with bank?

[Ascend Charlie]

As stated before, we in Oz have taught that having bank on will allow the nose to come down to the horizon in a very controllable and predictable manner. As it is coming down, gently roll wings level.

Crab is using "reductio ad absurdum" but that scenario is not realistic. From 30 nose up and 30 bank it is going to recover by itself very comfortably if you just hold the controls.

Haven't you ever flown a rotor-over? Or the extreme version of that, a torque turn? In a torque turn even 30 nose up feels like vertical, but the way of getting out of it is by turning, not by poking the nose over, or waiting nose high for a hammerhead and chopping the tail off.

[[email protected]]

Have you ever tried a recovery from a nose high attitude with bank? yes, when flying visually it is the easiest option but not IMC because it is dangerous.

Crab is using "reductio ad absurdum" but that scenario is not realistic. From 30 nose up and 30 bank it is going to recover by itself very comfortably if you just hold the controls. we are talking about an IMC UA, not visual recovery - try pulling to 30 degrees nose up from 90kts and hold that for a few seconds to simulate disorientation/stab failure/instrument failure and see how fast your speed decays.

The only thing the aircraft will do is drop the nose (flap-forward as opposed to flapback) as the speed washes off.

If you have bank on at that nose up with the speed decaying you are going to slide sideways out of that position if you do nothing with the controls.

I think you guys are confusing recovery from a visual condition with nose up and bank that you have deliberately put yourself into with an IMC recovery from a proper UA.

I have taught wing (rotor) overs, pedal turns, Tq turns and more for many years as well as methods for recovery from those manoeuvres when they go wrong, I have displayed the Lynx (loops, barrel rolls, back flips etc etc) and taught air combat manoeuvres.

I agree that recovery from badly flown wingover is usually to drop the nose whilst continuing the turn but that is a VISUAL recovery not IMC.

[CappyJax]

If you do nothing with the controls, you are not attempting a recovery, now are you? Ok, you do it your way because someone told you to. I'll do it my way because I have experience doing it and explained the rationale.

[[email protected]]

If you do nothing with the controls, you are not attempting a recovery, now are you I didn't suggest that at all - that was AC's comment about how the aircraft would fly itself out (which it won't).

I will continue to do it my way because a. it works every time and b. because I have experience of it working for the last 35 years. The Brit Mil has been teaching this technique for donkeys years because of the same reasons - it works every time and has been continually proven to do so.

You didn't say what the official FAA line was on this - if you were following their recommendations rather than ploughing your own furrow based simply on what you like to do, you might have a stronger case.

Oh and you didn't answer the question about IMC time in a single helo.........

[[email protected]]

From the FAA Instrument Flying GuideRecovery from Unusual Attitudes
In moderate unusual attitudes, the pilot can normally
reorient by establishing a level flight indication on the
attitude indicator. However, the pilot should not depend on
this instrument if the attitude indicator is the spillable type,
because its upset limits may have been exceeded or it may
have become inoperative due to mechanical malfunction.
If it is the nonspillable-type instrument and is operating
properly, errors up to 5 degrees of pitch-and-bank may result
and its indications are very difficult to interpret in extreme
attitudes. As soon as the unusual attitude is detected, the
recommended recovery procedures stated in the POH/AFM
should be initiated. If there are no recommended procedures
stated in the POH/AFM, the recovery should be initiated by
reference to the ASI, altimeter, VSI, and turn coordinator.
Nose-High Attitudes
If the airspeed is decreasing, or below the desired airspeed,
increase power (as necessary in proportion to the observed
deceleration), apply forward elevator pressure to lower the
nose and prevent a stall, and correct the bank by applying
coordinated aileron and rudder pressure to level the
miniature aircraft and center the ball of the turn coordinator.
The corrective control applications are made almost
simultaneously, but in the sequence given above. A level
pitch attitude is indicated by the reversal and stabilization of the ASI and altimeter needles. Straight coordinated flight
is indicated by the level miniature aircraft and centered ball
of the turn coordinator.
It is for FW but you claim your 'technique' is valid for all aircraft.

Your licensing Authority seems to differ.

Now found the helicopter sectionUnusual Attitudes
Any maneuver not required for normal helicopter instrument
flight is an unusual attitude and may be caused by any one
or combination of factors, such as turbulence, disorientation,
instrument failure, confusion, preoccupation with flight deck
duties, carelessness in cross-checking, errors in instrument
interpretation, or lack of proficiency in aircraft control. Due
to the instability characteristics of the helicopter, unusual
attitudes can be extremely critical. As soon as an unusual
attitude is detected, make a recovery to straight-and-level
flight as soon as possible with a minimum loss of altitude.
To recover from an unusual attitude, a pilot should correct
bank-and-pitch attitude and adjust power as necessary. All
components are changed almost simultaneously, with little
lead of one over the other. A pilot must be able to perform
this task with and without the attitude indicator. If the
helicopter is in a climbing or descending turn, adjust bank,
pitch, and power. The bank attitude should be corrected
by referring to the turn-and-slip indicator and attitude
indicator. Pitch attitude should be corrected by reference to
the altimeter, airspeed indicator, VSI, and attitude indicator.
Adjust power by referring to the airspeed indicator and
manifold pressure.
Since the displacement of the controls used in recovery from
unusual attitudes may be greater than those used for normal
flight, make careful adjustments as straight-and-level flight
is approached. Cross-check the other instruments closely to
avoid overcontrolling.
Common Errors During Unusual Attitude
Recoveries
1. Failure to make proper pitch correction
2. Failure to make proper bank correction
3. Failure to make proper power correction
4. Overcontrolling pitch and/or bank attitude
5. Overcontrolling power
6. Excessive loss of altitude
where does your 'method' feature in that? Strangely enough the FAA technique looks just like the Brit Mil one, wonder why that is.......

[JimEli]

Know your attitude indicator: FAA SAFO 17008, Attitude Indicator Pitch Indication Limitations (https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/USAFAA/2017/06/01/file_attachments/825145/SAFO17008.pdf)

[CappyJax]

You couldn't challenge me with logic, so now you are using vague recommended procedures that don't directly contradict my method. What is the quickest way to return to straight and level with in a nose-high turning UA? Roll level which increases vertical lift, and then gently pitch forward to lower the nose? Or maintain the bank you are in that is already working on lowering the nose, then rolling level after the nose has lowered. Your comments seem to suggest that anything other than straight and level is an unusual attitude. The return to a stable flight condition is more important than straight and level. You can be in straight and level flight and still not have a stablized aircraft, such as is the case if you lower the nose too rapidly and enter a low G situation.

[[email protected]]

cappyjax - I am starting to think that you have never been IMC in a helicopter and have never experienced disorientation IMC for real because otherwise you wouldn't believe that your 'method' is anything but a recipe for disaster.

You dismiss the FAA advice as vague because it doesn't match your beliefs and are obsessed with the idea that pushing the nose forward will immediately result in low G and mast-bumping.

If you start your recovery by rolling the wings level, you have IMMEDIATELY resolved the 'straight' part of straight and level flight - then all you have to do is adjust attitude and power to achieve the 'level' part.

In your 'method' you continue or increase the turn (that in itself is further disorientating the pilot) which is turning you away from the ATC prescribed or safe heading.

Or maintain the bank you are in that is already working on lowering the nosejust exactly how is it doing that? You have found yourself in a nose high turning UA - you must have too much aft cyclic to have got the nose high in the first place so how is the bank lowering the nose?

Then you drop the nose (what is there to stop the same adrenaline-fuelled push to low G in your scenario?)increase the speed (possibly too quickly if you have dropped the nose too far). Now you are in a turn, trying to chase the speed, with acceleration and bank further confusing your inner ear and way off heading as well as level. If you get this wrong you are in a descending spiral leading to level bust or worse with rapidly increasing speed (think Vne) and have essentially put yourself into another UA which you will have to recover from by rolling the wings level and bringing the nose up to the horizon (sound like a familiar WASP technique which you could have done in the first place?)

If you roll wings level first and 'increase vertical lift' (in your words) what does it matter? You have the wings level and can instantly assess the situation, cross-checking against your standby instruments in case you have had an AI failure or against your compass if you don't have standby AI (if you put the wings level and the compass is still turning you instantly know you have an AI problem - how do you do that with your method?)

Once you have the wings level, everything else is simple and resettting the desired altitude and assigned heading is quick and easy - I would rather have a level-bust upwards than down but with wings level I can sort that very quickly.

You don't like my logic or my techniques, despite the fact that they are both approved and proven - you prefer your home-spun wisdom that doesn't survive first contact with reality.

I have survived hundreds of hours real IMC in helicopters from unstabilised singles to full IFR twins in a wide variety of demanding military roles - I have been disorientated and in UAs for real and I KNOW what works in the real world. On top of that the hundreds of simulator hours dealing with IMC emergencies has taught me what works and what doesn't.

Simply put - your advocated recovery from a nose high UA IMC in a helicopter is dangerous - go out and try it in cloud if you don't believe me. Under the hood doesn't count btw.

[CappyJax]

Ok, whatever you say.