Airways Aviation Academy

[wolf6]

Hi guys

I just would like to have some info on the new Elite Pathways program (ATPL Integrated) of the Airways Aviation Academy based in Oxford.
I've already read an old thread about the school related to when the school was based in Coventry. But what about the "new" academy, based in Oxford Airport, and with the VFR part of the ATPL made in Spain?
Do you have some experience done in this school? What about the instructors and the overall perfromance of the school? Rate of employment after the course?


Thanks for your help

[Officer Kite]

I only know what I have heard from someone who started there not long ago. They dropped out after a month, they also said at least 4 other guys dropped out shortly after. It was said to me that some people are failing 5 of the 7 exams sat in the first sitting.

Do double check of course but this is just what I've heard from someone who did it themselves - they lost £10,000 in dropping out but they said it was worth it

[Ozpilot235]

Haven't heard good things about this place recently. The guys that were originally running it have all now left and had recently heard that the company weren't paying their suppliers.

[WASALOADIE]

Very few graduates actually get any form of support in finding a job. Most end up doing themselves and it can take quite a time to do so. Small numbers of students. Take a look at Companies house for a bit of background information on the company.

[WASALOADIE]

I've recently heard that most of their students are Libyans who are on modular (PPL) courses in Spain (Huesca), a way of sorting the wheat from the chaff. Very few European students. They are advertising for TKI's for Spain. Previous CEO has been moved on.

[Officer Kite]

Maybe I'm missing something, but when was airways aviation ever considered to be one of the big 3? ... I notice you mentioned 'Airways/CAE', are you sure you're not confusing them with OAA?

[Ozpilot235]

WASALOADIE, I think you'll find the CEO along with the CFO, BD Manager, GM, HR Manager, Finance Manager, CTKI, Head of Training, Base Manager all left on their own accord.

[paco]

Airways bought out somebody at Coventry - Atlantic? Wycombe Air Centre is still more or less at Wycombe, after a few name changes.

[WASALOADIE]

Airways Aviation bought out Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry. Moved to Oxford so they could be called AAO (Airways Aviation Oxford) sounds like OAA (CAE OAA)but apart from a few hundred metres in location, there is a vast difference between the two. I've never heard od Airways being one of the big 3, I always thought this was L3(CTC), CAE OAA and FTE.

[Reverserbucket]

OAA (which uses the facilities that once housed the highly regarded OATS under CSE Aviation) has been CAE OAA for some time now although I was under the impression they were planning to drop Oxford from the title.

I believe Airways Aero Associates was the airfield operator under which the British Airways Flying Club operated. I understand that both Wycombe Air Centre and BAFC now operate under the combined Booker Aviation branding.

[Officer Kite]

Last I heard over half the class my friend was in dropped out after a month and some of those who stayed failed numerous exams ... I'd say they're some way off anywhere near the 'big 3' and there are numerous other far better placed contenders for that title.

[Rottweiler22]

The Airways building in Oxford is very nice. Modern and in a good location. That's about the only good thing I hear about Airways. A lot of unsuspecting people are dragged-in by the nice building, fancy uniforms, and glossy PR. A "fur coat and no knickers" institution, sadly.

They tell customers that courses are "nearly full", so they need to pay-up ASAP to guarantee their place on a course. In reality, courses are operating at about a third of their capacity.

I get the impression that they have a significantly lower selection standard than the Big Three. Probably to claw as many people as possible through the doors. A former Airways TKI said that some of the students were "unteachable".

It's not the first time I've heard someone refer to Airways as a "world leader", and a serious "competitor" for the Big Three, but this is complete fantasy in my opinion. It looks like they're clearly trying to mimic the Big Three with their top-end website, global training campuses, and dabbling in "training and recruitment solutions", but they're certainly nowhere near.

[Ozpilot235]

Heard they're in financial difficulty so if you do fall for the marketing make sure you don't pay anything upfront!

[WASALOADIE]

Companies house filed accounts for 2016 eludes to the fact that if further investment isn't forthcoming or business doesn't increase then future trading isn't viable. Made a sizeable loss in 2015 and 2016 even with new investment. So why then are they advertising for TKI's in Spain? Is it due to the Libyans training there, hoping that they will make the grade?

[mmatalla]

Greetings. I am Marwan Atalla, Executive Chairman of Airways Aviation. I am here to answer any questions, but I will not indulge in subjective comments or arguments; only facts.

I previously ran Ayla Aviation Academy, which won Training Provider of the year in 2016. I have known the owner of Airways Aviation (previously Atlantic Flight Training) for many years, and I believe is his vision for the company and the industry. I had several meetings with him, and we eventually decided to join forces and merge the two companies. In view of the size and branding of Airways, we decided to use Airways Aviation instead of Ayla Aviation, which was only known in it's region.

An investment banking firm was hired to manage the merger, and they quickly came to the conclusion that it would be better for the company to close the base in Aqaba, and move the assets to the UK and Spain. This was based on many reasons, which I am happy to go into detail offline with anyone who is interested.

I became Chairman of Airways two months ago, and I am very proud to be part of this organization. Furthermore, we are proud to have a contract with the Libyan Government and to be part of the training of their future generation. Education is the most valuable investment any country can make in itself.

We are equally proud of our self-sponsored and Airline sponsored students. As of today, we have over 200 students in various stages of training. In addition, between the two organizations, we have several thousand graduates working in various Airlines in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

Thank you

[ahwalk01]

Seems I have dodged a number of bullets in looking for gainful aviation employment

Guess this will be quietly wound up then...

New pilot degree programme | University of South Wales (http://www.southwales.ac.uk/news/2016/new-pilot-degree-programme/)

[Officer Kite]

Why do you have such a high turnover rate of staff? I came close to joining what was Atlantic flight training in Coventry a couple of years ago, over the 3 month period I was looking at the school for, even doing an assessment, all 3 staff members I dealt with had all left in that time period and I had new names.

Why are there only terrible reviews about your establishment? Everyone I know who has gone there has either failed 5 of 7 exams, commented on awful instruction and some have even given up (losing upwards of £10,000 in the process) quite early on after deciding they had made a massive mistake and it was better to take the loss and salvage what they could of their future career.

It's a bit out there, but when I went to an open evening of atlantic, you were actually mentioned at it (by a person who left a month later), to quote him (it was so bizarre I'll never forget it), he said "Marwan has a vision that this school will become the 'Gucci' of the aviation industry", this was a means of somehow attempting to justify the £87,000 asking price (haven't a clue what it is now but understand its dropped considerably and rightly so). And on that, with the greatest of respect Mr Attala but I count my lucky stars I never joined this school because it comes as more like the pound shop of aviation. I just feel sorry for one kind lady I met at the open evening who I later heard went and joined the course, heaven only knows where she's at now the poor thing.

[qraphoo]

A friend of mine recently finished and having heard all that has gone on (the changes and redundancies) it's not surprising that AA is following in the footsteps of AFT.
Especially if the conductor is the same of this orchestra as it was at AFT.
Quite disappointing really as the promise he/she was shown and told about the outcome has declined very quickly.
He/she said that the staff dealt with and facilities were in place for a really successful venture.
Turns out that's not the case; now that the conductor who clearly has the money but not the successful brains has put the descent on another company who showed a lot of promising signs!!
:ugh:

[mmatalla]

As I said i can only answer with facts.

The high turnover is the result of the change in upper management. We have had a series of changes, due to various reasons. The key post holders, however, are still in place and the training has not been affected.

I have never used the term "Gucci" in my life, so I was obviously misquoted.

The lady you mention is still with us and progressing well in her training.

I will not respond to graphoo because it's a matter of opinion and only time will tell.

[Teo0Pilot]

Hi all,

As a student at Airways Aviation (based in Spain) I can confirm that nothing has changed since the last load of messages below. The commercial side of the business has taken priority over safety and it is the students who suffer. The base here in Spain even lost it's training approval from the CAA towards the end of 2018 because there were so many air proies, and had to hire a new head of training (the old one quit) and chief flight instructor (he also quit) before it could be reinstated.

The main problem as far as I can see it is staff turnover. I can't say what's happening elsewhere, but here in Spain there is constant change in the staff body, caused by numerous ''hire and fires'' as well as people resigning because they couldn't handle the company culture any longer (including our CFI). This has left us feeling as though no-one really knows what they were doing.

This has even lead to some students being incorrectly sent to Montenegro to complete their PPL, only to find out this training didn't qualify them for an EASA license and had to then join us back in Spain to REDO their PPL. In total, just their PPL has taken 18 months! Not what you expect of an international flight school!

This has also lead to flight instructors dropping out to join the airlines or moving to other flight schools so we often go weeks grounded because there is simply no-one to fly us. This isn't helped by the reputation of the standards manager, an ex RAF guy in his seventies, who has apparently been in trouble numerous times for bullying other staff and even by students for racist remarks. What does him remaining say about the company culture?

If you can't tell already, I wouldn't recommend you join us here at Airways if you want to be treated as a professional pilot and not a student, if you want clarity in what is ahead in your course, or if you want any help in joining the airlines.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Interesting post! They put up a very nice show in the event in Heathrow and even said that they paid their instructors a very decent wage in otder to keep them despite the airlines actively recruiting. I guess this isn't true?

[Stn120]

Airways has always put on a good show at events. Even their buildings have all the trappings of a good company. When they first took over AFT at Coventry, they gave the place a new lick of paint, new carpets in the foyer, pot plants, new uniforms, flash new website etc., decals and signage everywhere but in the background, . In fact very little changed, if anything things got worse.
Large turnover of staff, at one point, the records showed more staff had gone through the school than students.
The image they portray is all smoke and mirrors. Mr Atalla (The original owner of AFT) has tried to turn things around and injected considerable sums into the school. But reading what is written in Companies house records (annual financial reports and filings), then the school needs much greater throughput of students to be a viable concern. The school tends to take on riskier students from North Africa and the Middle East (Libya and Kuwait mainly). These students do not wish to learn the intricacies of flying or the theory,( just what button to press and when to press it, not why do I need to press that button and what happens when I press it) . They dominate the school and the school "cow tows" to them to the dissatisfaction of European students. I friend of mine whilst working for them in UK, was asked and they attempted to coerce him into signing students off as having completed the requisite attendance and training and falsely sign to say they had passed the school exams to a satisfactory standard so that the students could be entered for their CAA exams. He did not agree and left the company shortly afterwards.
I am not surprised that they had lost their training approval, if the CAA had done a check on them, I'm sure they would have found a multitude of problems. The company tried a few years ago to change things around by moving to Oxford, just few hundred metres from CAE OAA, this time calling themselves Airways Aviation Oxford (AAO). Hearing that CAE OAA were holding open days, they would coincidently hold an open day and intercept potential students and try and wow them with the smoke and mirrors act. They offer low cost courses (designed to undercut CAE OAA) but it turns out that with recourses and additional costs etc, the cost works out similar or even more expensive in the long run. The move to Oxford was at a cost, big newer building on expensive real estate with high lease costs and overheads which is all listed in the annual returns (some of which were filed late resulting in charges). They do have some success (offering military to civil crossover courses, willing students with military funded training allowances) and should be expected for them to achieve their ATO status. But when you look at the numbers, they are far fewer than the reputable schools. Most of their flying training is moving (or has moved) to Huesca in Northern Spain. Cheaper to run operations there.
So overall, be very careful when looking at this school. Take a look under the carpet and behind the scenes, look for the rubbish that has been swept under the carpet and the cracks that have been painted over. Ask lots of questions and make sure you get answers. At stake is a lot of money, you're hard earned or borrowed money. Make sure you are getting a satisfactory deal. One question should be: Who is the Authority they are operating under, and what is the current state of the approval, are they EASA or CAA compliant?

[Teo0Pilot]

Nurse2Pilot - I fell victim to a well-executed show myself, so I understand why you'd think that. The marketing team has lots of glossy advertisements and handbooks, but they don't actually come through with the promises they make.

As for flight instructor's being paid well, that's a lie. My instructor told me that each instructor has a different salary regardless of experience or hours, because they were promised a different salary and set of benefits and bonuses when hired. Most of these promises haven't been honored and there is huge frustration between instructors and senior management because of this.

The operations in spain are awful too as the manager was fired, so the instructors's hardly get the hours in anyways to earn, and students therefore don't fly. I'd be surprised if we have more than 20 flights on a day with perfect weather.

This is why they're all leaving, and the students are so unhappy.

[MakingMovesUp]

I am a Libyan Student currently studying at Airways Aviation Spain you can ask me anything and I will answer honestly about my time so far.

The truth is the Libyan government are sponsoring many students to study in Spain with Airways and only pay as we move through the training. So a lack of flying, or a mess up in ground school, means we don't get our living allowance and Airways don't get paid. This has left us feeling resented as a group by Airways, even though it is not our fault. They want to move us through ASAP so they can get new European students which are better PR.

It is also true that some other cadets spent 18 months on their PPL studies because Airways don't know what they doing. This left many of my friends without enough money to live on and without the student welfare staff they would have gone hungry.

We never get to fly because they just dont have the staff to train this many students and it is eating away our time and money to wait for them to sort themselves out. It is a joke of a company, and if my situation was different I would never chose to train here or recommend anyone else does.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Wow, just.... wow! Even knowing to be cautious myself, I will say their marketing/PR team is very good! If not for the posts here, I would not be any wiser to the situation. Shiny, sleek website, very friendly and reassuring staff during the event, 5 advertised flying bases, how can a potential student really look under the carpet here? They've made sure the carpet is new and the cracks are properly covered up. I guess the real measure of a good school is feedback from students and student's success rates at gaining employment?

[flysmiless]

I would suggest, try contacting Asian Academy of Aeronautics, they have qualified Flight and Ground Instructors. Also they do provide PPL, CPL/IR/MER, ATPL GS as well as FIR with Flight Instructor Jobs.
Hope you can reach them through their contact us form. School is based in Gan Island Maldives

[B61]

I heard a rumour that they they were moving the last of the flying (MEIR) to Spain. Is the expensive building at Oxford going to be vacated too ? They moved in on 1st April 2016, so maybe it is an annual lease ?

[vetflyer]

Yes all MEIR trg going to Spain

Not taking the FIs

rgds

[Duchess_Driver]

Yes all MEIR trg going to Spain

Again, you're so far behind the drag curve.

What's your source for that information and, more importantly, how recent is that?

I know both the two full time instructors at EGTK and I have it on excellent authority that, whilst that was proposed last year, the first thing the new management did when they took over late last year was change that plan. I can categorically state MEIR will continue at EGTK and Steve and Robs jobs are safe. If anything, my information is that they are planning to put more aircraft (ME and SE) into both Oxford and Spain.

[vetflyer]

Hi

That info was from one of them but that was in Sept/Oct ? So new management after Oct ?

BTW since my previous post was my first hardly deserves the 'Again' Does it?

Rgds

PS Fluid & dynamic or just plain chaotic ................

[Duchess_Driver]

BTW since my previous post was my first hardly deserves the 'Again' Does it?

unfortunately, it does. People should engage brains before opening mouths as, whilst I appreciate this is a rumour network, people asserting untrue statements as fact can do untold damage to businesses.

Yes, Airways, like all flight training organisations at the moment are struggling to resource an increasing demand for pilots with a diminishing pool of instructors. Does this mean it’s a **** school? - of course it doesn’t. Does it mean the instructors or management are incompetent? - of course it doesn’t. Does it mean it’s a bad place to learn? No.

I’ve said it before students don’t always get the service they should but that does not mean there are unresolvable issues and the school deserves to be slated and struck off.

Most of the negative posts about schools come from students who express their side of the story - devoid of balance or the full facts. Who’s to say the one sided diatribes are a reasonable reflection of what happened or, indeed, the product of a disgruntled under performing student who is totally unrealistic in their expectations and are in for a big surprise when airline crewing departments or LTCs get their hands on them (should they make it that far!)

I take all posts that I am not able to disprove or know to be false with a huge pinch of salt which is why I bit at your post.

[WASALOADIE]

I have previously worked for Airways and a couple of other ATO's
If I were to categorize the ATO's that I have worked for or have reasonable knowledge of, using the analogy of Cars:
L3, FTE Jerez and CAE Oxford would be in the luxury market (Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar with associated dealer support), More expensive but you get a much better and more enjoyable ride and have a greater chance of getting to your destination on time and in one piece, looking like a businessman ready for work.
Airways - A Ford Escort with a respray, Carlos Fandango wheels, Furry dice, Air horns and tinted windows, you might get there eventually(not necessarily on time), without the same level of comfort, sorting out your own repairs en-route, tired and stressed, looking like Del Boy.

[vetflyer]

Duchess

That info was given to me by AA management in Sept / Oct last year

I cannot remember exactly but it was the week where HoT was sacked at start and CFI resigned at end.

MEIR trg going to Spain was told to me over a beer that week by person directly involved

No I am not a student and yes I do believe those statements were true hence my reply to B61

So since you are familiar with AA pray tell the latest plan ?

Who is new management ? New HoT ?

Rgds

[Duchess_Driver]

I’ve never proclaimed to be close to Airways, but I know both Rob and Steve very well and hence before countering your claim I checked my facts.

They say a week is a long time in politics... I say it’s even longer in Aviaton.

Further - to correct inaccuracies - the HT wasn’t sacked in September - Pedro was in place until starting a TR with a Spanish Carrier and left of his own volition in December. The deputy HT at that time had a difference of Opinion with the CEO/COO and as it was his “train set” the dHT was told his services were no longer required as his style was not suited to the way the CEO wanted to do things

The CFI has long stated his desire to move on - tired of the commute between his home and (very) young family in The Netherlands and Spain. The interesting thing is his choice of next employer means geographically he is closer to home and the commute might be slightly shorter but there’s probably not much in it.

Plans for the future? Who knows? One thing is certain that no plan ever survives contact with the enemy. I don’t think they (the management) would consider themselves one of the big 3 either - but the new CEO has a significantly greater amount of Aviaton/Airline/training experience than the last one and the General Manager is also “well versed” in training and aviation, being an ex 737/767 LTC. Both are well respected in there chosen areas.

[vetflyer]

Duchess

I stand by my comments

I am less happy about naming people on pprune than you

So lets end this discussion

RGds

Depends how good you plan is ……..

[Brijen]

should igoto this school to do the modular course? ive recently failed the entry exams at another school and im really unsure whether I should retry the entry exam or apply for this school, originally I had good hopes for this school but from what people are saying it is slightly deterring me.