HMS OCEAN

[Royalistflyer]

Apparently Ocean is to be retired. As I understand it, Ocean has been on just about every sort of mission we've had in recent years and has proven to be perhaps the single most useful ship we have. She can't (IMHO) be replaced by the carriers, she seems much more flexible and probably more cost efficient for so many tasks. Why not either refit and keep her or replace her? In a task force, Ocean could be a helicopter carrier, making room for the carrier to take a full complement of fixed wings. That's just my thinking - am I wrong? Or is cost/manning the real reason for retiring her?

[Martin the Martian]

Hasn't the argument always been that Ocean was built to commercial standards to save costs, and therefore was never expected to have as long a service life as an average Royal Navy ship? Certainly the intention seems to be to use the QEs as replacements.

Though I understand the Brazilians could be tempted to part with cash for her as a replacement for the Sao Paulo.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

She's utterly utterly knackered. You'd be better off buying a new one!

[drustsonoferp]

She was only built with a 20 year hull life, so any significant extension would almost certainly require an expensive amount of maintenance and refit.

This article from 2016 gives some background, and makes a case for retention of Ocean, pending a replacement. With 2 new carriers and manning levels fixed, it doesn't seem likely, even before current finances (or later ones if you factor in predicted economic impact of Brexit)
http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-campaign-to-retain-and-eventually-replace-hms-ocean-starts-here/

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Where will the Sailors come from? We expected a manpower uplift of 1500 to 2000 during the run up to SDSR 15 (as did the RAF) but Cameron lost his bottle when confronted by the 'Army numbers' lobby.

The Navy needs more manpower - which means a decision at Prime Ministerial level.

[chopper2004]

Hasn't the argument always been that Ocean was built to commercial standards to save costs, and therefore was never expected to have as long a service life as an average Royal Navy ship? Certainly the intention seems to be to use the QEs as replacements.

Though I understand the Brazilians could be tempted to part with cash for her as a replacement for the Sao Paulo.

That is interesting, however I doubt they be able to operate their A-4 Skyhawks off it as their is no angled deck and no CASTOBAR installed? Unless the Brazilians want to get rid of their fixed wing cap?

Cheers

[Frostchamber]

That is interesting, however I doubt they be able to operate their A-4 Skyhawks off it as their is no angled deck and no CASTOBAR installed? Unless the Brazilians want to get rid of their fixed wing cap?

Cheers

It was reported earlier this year that Brazil has given up on trying to keep Sao Paulo operational - too much work needed at too high a cost. They still claim to have an ambition to re-acquire FW carriers in the future but that doesn't look like happening any time soon and in practice would be a big ask.

So in the circs Ocean could provide some useful capability depending on what her state actually is, bearing in mind (as has been mentioned) the standards she was built to. She had a £65m refit in 2014.

[Davef68]

Maybe Brazil could partner with the Indians on a future carrier?

In terms on an Ocean replacement, one of the French Mistrals that was built for Russia might have been useful, but both money and manpower to start with would have prevented it

[Royalistflyer]

I can't help thinking (in my non-Fleet Air Arm way) that four Canberra class built on the Forth might maybe have been more useful than what we've got. They can operate as pure aircraft carriers, have a ski jump and are capable of housing a squadron of F35s and helicopters.

[Not_a_boffin]

You mean the Canberra class that can't take F35? At least not without some costly mods.


This has been done to death elsewhere. If you're going to do carrier strike you get a deck big enough to do it. Or you don't do carrier strike.


Little decks are comforting for some, because they think they're cheaper or somehow less demanding on resource. What you actually end up with is something that looks ok on paper, but is of very limited use for ops at scale.


Ocean herself is knackered - although less to do with the hull and "commercial standards" than the marine systems, many of which were bought as end of production run items (therefore cheap), but unable to accept efficiency and environmental upgrades. Oh - and almost no ILS as well, which means that she is a nightmare to support.

[Royalistflyer]

I thought the Spanish original of the Canberra class was specifically designed to take the F35B

[Not_a_boffin]

No. Designed so as not to preclude it (ski-jump, lift size etc), but the more detailed stuff, no.

[SpazSinbad]

Ships are refitted for purpose all the time. Just how much JC1 needs refitting to operate F-35Bs is unknown. US LHAs had some refitting such as better non-skid in some deck areas along with secure comms & spaces suitable for secure F-35B briefings and such like. IF the Spanish purchase some F-35Bs (that is certainly their intention today) then in due course we may find out more about what needs to be done to an LHD. Meanwhile here are JC1 & Mistral side be side at Toulon recently.

http://www.defensa.com/espana/sh60f-modificado-para-cometidos-transporte-tactico-tropas-nh901
As Commander of the Aircraft Fleet I would love to see the LHD Juan Carlos I operating with the F-35B
Julio Maíz Sanz September 14, 2017

For the Commander of the Fleet of Aircraft of the Spanish Navy, the captain of the ship Jose Luis Nieto Fernandez, the only substitute of the AV8B + capable of operating in naval platforms like the LHD Juan Carlos I is the F-35B. In the second part of this interview we discuss the replacement of the Harrier and the future needs of FLOAN in order to adapt to the new scenarios

Q: With respect to the Harriers, is it planned to modernize or implement their equipment and / or armaments in order to increase their capabilities? How long will they be operational? Is the F-35 the only possible substitute?

A: The AV8B + aircraft of the Ninth Squadron embarked on the LHD Juan Carlos I are a fundamental element of the naval power projection capacity. As we all know, the program to support this aircraft is multinational between the countries that operate the Harrier (Spain, Italy and the United States) and both the United States Navy and the Italian Navy will gradually replace the AV8B + with the F35 Joint Strike Fighter, although to this day it is not defined yet when the definitive fall of the Harrier will occur, everything seems to indicate that it will not be before 2030.

What is clear is that the only substitute of the AV8B + capable of operating on naval platforms such as the Juan Carlos I LHD is the F-35B that has short take-off and vertical takeoff capability, so the Navy considers it an option to maintain a robust projection capability of naval power. As Commander of the Aircraft Flotilla and pilot of AV8B + I would love to see our LHD Juan Carlos I operating with F-35B of the Aircraft Flotilla...."

[Heathrow Harry]

Shortage pf cash to replace what has been a very very useful vessel.............

The QE's can do the job but the running cost..............................

[Just This Once...]

This has been done to death elsewhere. If you're going to do carrier strike you get a deck big enough to do it. Or you don't do carrier strike.

Carrier Strike is a laudable aim and something the US Navy do very well but this capability is out of reach for the QE class. It lacks the organic capabilities (AD, ASW, modern CIWS et al) and no funded FW EW, AAR or FW C2. More importantly the QE class will not routinely sail with full war-fighting complements, full magazines, logistics or support assets.

US Carrier Strike does not get out of bed without a full compliment of war-fighting capabilities - ready to be tasked for whatever war may come up. Regrettably the current RN is well-versed in sailing with depleted or absent capabilities whilst pottering about to conserve fuel and other associated costs.

Carrier Strike is difficult and expensive. The QE class is there to provide an enabling capability for F-35 and/or embarked helicopters. Carrier Strike is not in the budget and the RN would be wise to park the 'most powerful warship' and 'Carrier Strike' mantras as embarrassment can only follow.

[Not_a_boffin]

That's one view. There are people who would point out that this is incorrect It lacks the organic capabilities (AD, ASW, modern CIWS et al)


and that this
More importantly the QE class will not routinely sail with full war-fighting complements, full magazines, logistics or support assets.
is a matter of opinion rather than fact.


Carrier Strike is difficult and expensive. The QE class is there to provide an enabling capability for F-35 and/or embarked helicopters. Carrier Strike is not in the budget and the RN would be wise to park the 'most powerful warship' and 'Carrier Strike' mantras as embarrassment can only follow.



I suspect that depends entirely on the political/military effect demanded by HMG and the mindset (joint or otherwise) of the contributing services.


Time will tell. This is a long-term evolution. Budgets and C2 arrangements can change.

[Fedaykin]

Ocean herself is knackered - although less to do with the hull and "commercial standards" than the marine systems, many of which were bought as end of production run items (therefore cheap), but unable to accept efficiency and environmental upgrades. Oh - and almost no ILS as well, which means that she is a nightmare to support.

Of course there is knackered and knackered, Ocean and her systems are in a vastly superior state than the Sao Paulo and buying her keeps a toe in the carrier game for Brazil until they have the budget to build their future carrier.

I also have a hunch (maybe unfair not knowing their navy in detail) that they are less fussed about machinery accepting efficiency and environmental upgrades. What is fitted to Ocean is less likely to burst into flames, flood a deck or explode in comparison to the old Sao Paulo. Almost certainly more efficient and environmentally friendly!

It gets Brazil out of a fix for a while, gives some work to a UK yard doing a pre-sale refit and after that it is Brazil's problem....or solution depending on how you look upon it.

[Fedaykin]

More importantly the QE class will not routinely sail with full war-fighting complements, full magazines, logistics or support assets.



Unlikely that a QE class will sail with full magazines regularly, I believe there are some rules about potential explosive effect near a population centre that prevents UK warships putting to sea with full magazines during Peace Time.

People tend to get upset if their windows get broken, RN Portsmouth and Devonport are close to major population centres.

[Not_a_boffin]

Unlikely that a QE class will sail with full magazines regularly, I believe there are some rules about potential explosive effect near a population centre that prevents UK warships putting to sea with full magazines during Peace Time.

People tend to get upset if their windows get broken, RN Portsmouth and Devonport are close to major population centres.


Yes there are regs. No, that's not how they work.

[Fedaykin]

Good to know

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd be more worried about all those old SSN's etc parked up..... but it's only Rosyth & Plymouth I guess

[alfred_the_great]

Unlikely that a QE class will sail with full magazines regularly, I believe there are some rules about potential explosive effect near a population centre that prevents UK warships putting to sea with full magazines during Peace Time.

People tend to get upset if their windows get broken, RN Portsmouth and Devonport are close to major population centres.

You're wrong.

[Just This Once...]

That's one view. There are people who would point out that this is incorrect...

Time will tell. This is a long-term evolution. Budgets and C2 arrangements can change.

Incorrect?

ASW - Nothing organic. If weather is ok and you have them embarked then you have the rotary option.

AD - Nothing organic. No fixed wing AEWC for long-range search and zero surface to air missiles. If you have them embarked, armed and ready, you may have F-35.

Modern CIWS - Gun only CIWS salvaged from other vessels. Needs to predict missile course and engagement limited to very close range. Against modern (i.e. post-CIWS era) manoeuvring or very high speed weapons - er no. Plans to update for a RIM116 type capability - nope, nothing yet.

The QE is not built or funded for carrier strike. I do recognise the 'budgets and C2' argument as it is often used but the idea of a major upgrade in capabilities this late in the day are wishful thinking. I am also used to the incredulous looks from the USN / USMC when we explain we intend to operate the QE class in the littoral environment as a helicopter assault ship.

Again, carrier strike is an expensive business and with the QE class we did not join the club. We have to make the best of what we have and not imagine our way into thinking we have carrier strike. We also need to be realistic about taking a vessel of this size and value close enough to the shore to make helicopter assault a viable option.

[Bing]

ASW - Nothing organic. If weather is ok and you have them embarked then you have the rotary option.

WTF do you think organic ASW is other than the embarked rotary?

[Not_a_boffin]

You beat me to it.


I think JTO is of the opinion that if it isn't a Nimitz with 50 TACAIR, Growler, Hawkeye etc then it isn't Carrier Strike.


I would suggest that there may be more than one level of CS.


Crowsnest + F35 = Air defence. Perhaps not to the same scale as E2 plus F14, but those days are gone for the cousins as well. To suggest that she'll not deploy with those cabs in the event of an air threat is a bit of a stretch.


ASW - I suspect 9 Merlin may be a significantly more potent organic ASW capability than half a dozen SH60.


CIWS. CIWS is CIWS. RIM116 is a PDMS, which strangely enough can be applied to SeaCeptor, for which a fit is possible (if not funded). POint being, the ship is big enough and capable enough.


There are some elements that the USN are used to having that the RN will have to relearn. Again, there's room in the ship and in the power infrastructure.


It's a question of political appetite.

[alfred_the_great]

Incorrect?

ASW - Nothing organic. If weather is ok and you have them embarked then you have the rotary option.

AD - Nothing organic. No fixed wing AEWC for long-range search and zero surface to air missiles. If you have them embarked, armed and ready, you may have F-35.

Modern CIWS - Gun only CIWS salvaged from other vessels. Needs to predict missile course and engagement limited to very close range. Against modern (i.e. post-CIWS era) manoeuvring or very high speed weapons - er no. Plans to update for a RIM116 type capability - nope, nothing yet.

The QE is not built or funded for carrier strike. I do recognise the 'budgets and C2' argument as it is often used but the idea of a major upgrade in capabilities this late in the day are wishful thinking. I am also used to the incredulous looks from the USN / USMC when we explain we intend to operate the QE class in the littoral environment as a helicopter assault ship.

Again, carrier strike is an expensive business and with the QE class we did not join the club. We have to make the best of what we have and not imagine our way into thinking we have carrier strike. We also need to be realistic about taking a vessel of this size and value close enough to the shore to make helicopter assault a viable option.

By your premise, USN CSGs are not carrier strike as they rely on "non-organic" RW assets.

[pettinger93]

The OCEAN hull was originally developed from an existing commercial car carrier design.
Had to be upgraded to military specs in some respects, for example with regard to compartmental segregation, etc, but the steel plate thicknesses and general hull design are pretty much standard car carrier.

[Not_a_boffin]

The OCEAN hull was originally developed from an existing commercial car carrier design.
Had to be upgraded to military specs in some respects, for example with regard to compartmental segregation, etc, but the steel plate thicknesses and general hull design are pretty much standard car carrier.


Err, no. The parent for Ocean's hullform was CVS, with (some obvious) mods above the waterline.

[Heathrow Harry]

Two shipbuilders tendered for the contract – VSEL and SwanHunter. On 11 May 1993, the government announced that VSEL had won the contract.

The build was to commercial standards, reducing costs significantly and leading to a construction spend of £154 million (£283 million in 2015). VSEL, a warship manufacturer, sub-contracted the build phase to the commercial Kværner yard in Govan Glasgow. The fact that VSEL's bid was £71 million lower than Swan Hunter's was the source of political controversy and led to a National Audit Office (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Audit_Office_%28United_Kingdom%29) investigation to determine whether the competition was fair. The report, published on 29 July 1993, stated that, although VSEL did subsidise its bid, the MoD was right to award the contract to VSEL because the subsidy was much smaller than the difference between the two bids; VSEL's bid was £139.5 million compared to Swan Hunter's £210.6 million. The Times also suggested that the subsidy was as little as £10 million.



In anticipation of the report, the Financial Times described the different philosophies adopted by the two bidders; while Swan Hunter viewed the ships as entirely military, "VSEL thought the design was basically a merchant ship with military hardware bolted on." VSEL's decision to sub-contract the build phase took advantage of lower overheads at a civilian yard as well as efficiency drives by its parent, Kværner.

[Not_a_boffin]

The Wiki-fu is strong in this one. If only Wiki were a reliable source.

[Heathrow Harry]

I know it was a nail in Swan Hunter's coffin..........

But Beleive in The WikiForce NaB............................

"The hull design is based on the design of the Invincible Class aircraft carrier (also built by Vickers) with a modified superstructure."

[Not_a_boffin]

I have seen the light. The band............ the band etc....

[WE Branch Fanatic]

JTO

1. What do you think an ASW frigate uses for delivering ASW weapons at range? What do you think a carrier should use?

2. Surely Air Defence means fighters, as surface to air is Anti Air Warfare? Since you mention AEW and surface to air missiles in the same sentence, are you aware F-35B has demonstrated the ability to cue shipborne missile systems?

[Hangarshuffle]

Swans were right to put that bid in at the price quoted. In refits in Devonport 2001 and again in Portsmouth in 2002 the Navy spent strong money rectifying some of the skipiness of the original build by VSEL and Kavs on the low bid. Particularly remember the pretty dank conditions of the ASRM mess, so dank it caused problems with TB for inhabitants as I recall. (Low quality piping/air con).
You only get what you pay for.
(Right in the sense that they were fairly honourable people trying to build a ship at a fair and correct price for everyone to be happy about).

[oldgrubber]

WEBF,

My second ship, the Ajax, used Ikara ;)

[ORAC]

Brazil announce purchase of HMS Ocean for £84 million (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/brazil-purchase-hms-ocean-84-million/)

Brazil has now confirmed the purchase of British helicopter carrier HMS Ocean.

We were informed by a source in the Brazilian defence community that the vessel has been sold for £84 million. Roberto Lopes has informed us that the purchase of HMS Ocean by the Brazilian Navy was confirmed within the last week by Brazilian Defence Minister Raul Jungmann.

We understand the first group of four Brazilian officers will head to the UK within the next few weeks. We also understand that there are doubts over the retention of the Phalanx CIWS by Brazil but are unsure regarding the reasons why. The vessel will remain in the UK until October or November this year......

According to Brazilian journalist Roberto Lopes in an e-mail to us, the ship’s cost to the Brazilian Navy is fixed at £84.3 million pounds (312 million Brazilian Reais). Commander of the Brazilian Navy, Admiral Eduardo Leal Ferreira, claimed that the price of Ocean seemed “convenient”.....

We understand from Roberto Lopes via e-mail, the source who let us know that Brazil has already submitted a payment plan for the vessel, that the officers involved in the ship acquisition process are optimistic and are already discussing details beyond the technical and financial assessments that have been made, such as the name of the ship.

“Minas Gerais is the strongest designation at the time. Rio de Janeiro was ‘saved’ for the future aircraft carrier. However, nothing definite. Only with the execution of the acquisition is that defined.”

[Heathrow Harry]

and so 2018 starts - another capability cut

[GlosMikeP]

DefenceSynergia Press Release ? 3 January 2018 | Defence Synergia (http://www.defencesynergia.co.uk/defencesynergia-press-release-3-december-2018/)