End of CX housing..

[jetjockey696]

the nails in the coffin already.. now its time to get lowered into the ground..

Cathay Pacific to slash housing packages for pilots as part of ongoing cost-cutting drive | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/2113506/cathay-pacific-slash-housing-packages-pilots-part-ongoing)

[Air Profit]

Well, there is three months before there can be any materiel change. I strongly suggest that during those three months we each individually demonstrate to Anna the effect of pissing off the pilots. I am certainly going to do my part. Good luck with the schedule over the next three months Anna. Best.

[dabz]

I believe those 3 months should be spent rearranging your housing situation so you can either afford to live in HK under the current HKPA conditions or leave.

Cathay don't follow rules or care about contracts, if they say they're taking it away then it's going to happen one way or another.

[oriental flyer]

So how does Anna expect pilots to live in HK without housing allowance ?
If Cathay had used their brains 30 years ago and bought apartments instead of renting them, they would have benefited from the capital gain, and the housing allowance would have come back to them as well.
It's not rocket science it's just good economics, but as the fuel debacle has demonstrated they seem incapable of making sensible decisions.
Apartments that cost HK$ 12 million in 1997 are now selling for close to $100 million . By now CX would have a massive property portfolio , another opportunity lost

I wonder how much Anna's rental will be cut .? Oh how stupid to even consider that she would be made to suffer any kind of cuts

Well this should make it a lot easier for people to make the decision to leave

[Threethirty]

Will upper management cut their housing allowance? No thought not! This is nothing but modern day feudalism, it started with the bankers in 2008 and now the rest of the corporate elite are getting in on the game.

[positionalpor]

indeed. Corporate mentality took over

[quadspeed]

All this huffing and puffing on anonymous forums might provide some short term gratification for many, but in the morning the sun will still be black.

In the real world, this comes down to one single issue. Are you willing to resign over this? If not, then you get what you deserve.

[Oval3Holer]

Rather than resign, why not do something that union members do elsewhere in the world? If you lose your job at least you've accomplished something on the way out.

[raven11]

Agree with Oval...stop expecting others to fight your battles. Every one of us has it in their power to do something.

If you're too stressed to fly...and many people on this forum are clearly showing signs of stress...then lobby your GC to do something (that certainly includes you boys and gals at KA and those on a base)....and in the end if it is still affecting your mental capacity then see an AME.

[stevieboy330]

So three years of CC is working out well then.......
It's like watching two people take turns at punching each other in the face!

[Dragon69]

Ok raven et al, exactly what urgent and effective leverage do you want the non-trainers to utilize at this time, this coming week, while ARAPA is being rewritten? Remember: "urgent" and "effective."

how about a mass sickout for starters

[Oval3Holer]

What happened when the 49ers were fired? Nothing.

What will happen now? Nothing.

Mark my words.

[pa44hk]

how about a mass sickout for starters

+1

Air Berlin and TUI have done this in the past also. It will take more than wearing a red lanyard and CC to be taken seriously.

[Air Profit]

Every single ARAPA recipient should be planning on immediate stress leave. If you are not willing to act NOW to defend your contract, rights and family security, then please DO NOT complain after the expiration of the 90 day cooling off period. The company is gambling on us not reacting. The ONLY power we have is to demonstrate immediately how our goodwill (or lack thereof) will cripple this airline. Again, please DO NOT complain after the 90 days is up and housing is gone. It will be very easy to know who did and did not take action. This is the final assault on our contracts. If we don't fight back now we never will. Time to declare whether you have character and integrity or not.

[arse]

43% on ARAPA ... therefore 57% think, "Phew, doesn't effect me. I'll be OK". As all too often happens, divide and conquer ... and it will work.

[broadband circuit]

The first 60 days of the 90 day cooling off period (i.e. until 30 Nov) are during the lowest travel season of the year. Notice how they always have a go at us during Sep/Oct, or Apr/May ? They quote the diminishing loads and yields etc etc. That's because it's low season!!!!

The last 30 days of the 90 day cooling off are probably where I'm likely to feel most stressed, as the potential hardship for my family approaches rapidly.....

[Metro man]

Overall, pilot costs totalled almost half of the company’s HK$19.7 billion spending on employees last year, who represent 14.6 per cent of the 26,670-strong workforce.

What percentage of spending on employees goes on senior management and directors, and what percentage of the workforce do they make up ?

It appears pilots get 3.4 times more spent on them then they would if everyone got the same rate of spend. How does the board come out ?

[Al E. Vator]

It's utterly pointless complaining about it here if you don't actually DO anything.

Absolutely, the problem is largely due to stupid managerial fuel hedging (aka gambling) losses etc for which you are now being forced pay the price. There is also the age-old issue of the arrogance of managerial isolation from penalties applied to lowly staff.

But whining on PPRUNE about the injustice of management or the current and past faults of the union won't fix one thing. PPRUNE rants aren't an effective industrial tool.

If you work as a coherent group where at least 80-90% of you act semi-uniformly, you will be fine. But in CX that seems an unlikely scenario. Evidently there will always be people 'philosophically opposed' to what may be seen as industrial action and willing to ingratiate themselves by working on G days or undermining their peers in other ways.

How you bypass this fact to rectify the declining fortunes of the CX pilot is the key to success. For sure if you are a late 20's or thirty-something CX pilot you must se the writing on the wall. HK is an unhealthy place for your family so why suffer that and reduced conditions when there is a rapidly emerging pilot-hungry market out there? Granted you may need to get out of your comfort zone but that zone may not be very comfortable in future anyhow, so why not act now?

There are highly intelligent organisers within your ranks. Think outside the box and act smart. Pulling up short of the chocks potentially isn't that smart. The question is what and how?

Perhaps for example set up the "HKG Pilot Placement Agency PLC" where you package and market entire blocks of current and experienced pilots pitched at the likes of Middle Eastern carriers (for those happy to live there) or direct entry positions to the mass of desperate new and existing carriers (Westjet's new Canadian startup, SAS Ireland, Air Japan, even Norwegian etc) where your skills would be a godsend and you could live away from pollution. Not a perfect answer but just one suggestion.

Thus, those who see a rapidly declining future in CX can take charge of your destinies quickly and move, courtesy of the reputation of your skilled peers. Those who wish to remain will benefit from the fact CX would need to reconsider knee-jerk financial penalties on staff arising from their own managerial ineptitude. Retaining staff would be cheaper than retraining hundreds of pilots so this would actually be a CX win too. A win-win-win! Act dumb and divided and nobody wins. Be smart and cohesive and it can work well for all, even those staff and managers too myopic not to see that yet.

Hopefully the exodus of pilots from Ryanair and the mess that loudmouth finds himself in will be a wake-up call to airlines that you do actually need to treat staff respectfully free from arrogant managerial isolation.

[Brokeidiot]

Goodwill is long dead... we should rather be showing the company how much “badwill” costs them when you have your own workforce working against you at every opportunity... goodwill is long gone may it never return

[bringbackthe80s]

To be honest I struggle to understand why anyone affected would show up to fly if they really take away housing unilaterally.

[betpump5]

So, who is going to coordinate and lead the execution of this sickout in order to ensure its effectiveness

Politically, as I understand it, the AOA could never do that. An organised sick out that is. You may as well call it a strike. Don't even waste your emotions or bandwith asking for it whether it be here or on the actual forum.

An actual date where we can all show our disgust will come via different avenues and hopefully not via WhatsApp groups which have spies lurking there.

[quadspeed]

I've said it before, there is only one effective response to this.

47% of HK-based pilots need to resign en-masse. Three months notice, starting now.

If the company brings resolve to the table the mass-resignation is withdrawn. Water under the bridge. CX cannot pick and choose; it's all out and all back in. Solidarity in its truest form.

But the move entails considerable risk for the 47%. What of CX accepts the resignations? What if they're willing to drastically cut production to rid themselves of overpaid staff?

If they are, then you needs to ask yourself if this is really where you want to be in the first place. It will never get better.

History shows that appeasement only delays the enivatable when dealing with such people. No more letters, no more negotiations, no more daydreaming of sick-outs, training bans, contract compliance and withdrawal of goodwill. They won't get you to the finish line. These tactics only divide, confuse, delay and give the company enough time to manage the situation.

This is it. Either fight the ultimate battle or capitulate. Stand up for yourself or get what you deserve.

And for those unfamiliar with labour struggles; en-masse resignations is just a fancy word for a strike.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

For those of us not close to Cathay, can someone please just mention what the abbreviation ARAPA stands for? I realise it has something to do with local housing in the contracts, but what is the actual term? Just curious, thanks.

[Brown Nose]

Strikes and resignations are 2 very different things

[Metro man]

47% of HK-based pilots need to resign en-masse.Three months notice, starting now.

Ask the Aussies if that was such a good idea back in 1989.

[quadspeed]

Strikes and resignations are 2 very different things

In practic and common language, yes.

But in legal terms, they're exactly the same thing. Especially in Hong Kong.

[Avinthenews]

No one is going to do anything because of good old seniority and starting at the bottom of a new company will always be worse than a pay cut. A lot of chest beating and swearing but it's all just hot air unfortunately.

And those that do have the kahunas to leave will be a very small percentage just like the base closures and CX is more than happy with that.

[quadspeed]

Ask the Aussies if that was such a good idea back in 1989.

Look, the company's position is that the 47% have too much to lose to take any personal risk.

And they're probably right. Which makes all this huffing and puffing a joke, because in the end no B or A scaler is willing to face the risks associated with open conflict. Which the mentioned Aussies did. However, if England had used Poland as an historical example of what happens when you stand up to evil, we'd all be speaking German.

So take the 30-grand and be happy you had a good run while it lasted. To fight and win you need to be ready to lose it all.

[CodyBlade]

Stuart Sutcliffe

Are you are journo fishing around?

[pax britanica]

Very sad, end of the line for Cathay as a world airline

Clearly appalling management, deceitful dishonest and untrustworthy, do I want to fly on an airline like that?

Pilots stressed, understandable, I know exactly how big an issue this is if you live in HK, its like the company saying oh by the way we have halved your wages. So strikes or hardship or other actions by pilots-do I want to fly on an airline like that?

Inexperienced senior management who think only of their self importance , screw the pilots over today , cut back on fuel reserves and maintenance tomorrow-do I want to fly on an airline like that?

Good luck guys and girls, I ve had some very nice trips on CX over the years but it seems I ve had my last one because , do I want to fly on an airline like that?

[Krone]

I just operated today. The majority of the chat was about the above and its implications for the group as a whole, inc KA.

We missed several radio calls and forgot several SOP items.

This issue is a cloud over safe operations. Its a real threat within the flight deck. It will become more so as the debate intensifies.

Its human nature to speculate.
Its inevitable this issue will become a real distraction during daily operations . Period.

[1200firm]

THEY DON'T CARE. About you ,your career, your family, your dog, or your duckpond.
They don't give a s##t about the future, or profits, or cost, or passengers, or CX, or aviation.
They don't care if you crash and kill hundreds. It is your fault, not theirs.
Cutting costs in their silo will generate short term bonuses and then they're gone to tugboats in Jesselton or wherever.
They hate you, and they hate their customers.

[stevieboy330]

Take a ride o the HAS bus & do a bit of eavesdropping if you want to know how things are going, em not so well. & That little logbook stamp on the third floor will need to be replaced pretty soon....

[morningcoffee]

Share price up around 2% and will be up again Monday. Market seems pretty happy with efficiencies gained. Not really sure where all this bluster is going. Until we know what the new housing is there's no point in getting worked up.

[Dragon69]

Ask the Aussies if that was such a good idea back in 1989.

I was waiting for it, I'm surprised it took this long for someone to mention 1989.

As if that single event in a god forsaken island with a tiny population south of the equator is going to dictate the industrial dos and don'ts globally for the rest of time. FFS let it go, this is the 21st century, times are different, the place is different, and the scenario is completely different.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Are you are journo fishing around?
No, certainly not, just an interested observer! And someone here has now sent me a PM with the meaning of the abbreviation, so thanks to them.

[ACMS]

Dragon69: really mate, you are so naive and short sighted it’s......well amazing.

What happened in ‘89 was the beginning of the end of Airline Pilot as a career anywhere in the World, the ramifications of which are still bouncing around the Globe everyday. Airline managers wet their pants with excitement over this.

[Dragon69]

Dragon69: really mate, you are so naive and short sighted it’s......well amazing.

What happened in ‘89 was the beginning of the end of Airline Pilot as a career anywhere in the World, the ramifications of which are still bouncing around the Globe everyday. Airline managers wet their pants with excitement over this.

ACMS. . let me take a wild guess... you're Australian...

Of course in your little mind you think that airline flying was invented and perfected down under, so naturally you would make the assumption that 1989 was the precipitous to a global change in the industry, but if you take the time and look beyond your arrogant blinkers, you would see that there's been plenty of unionised airlines that have fought back and brought about positive change.

[Captain Dart]

Dragon, the subject of '89' came up because a poster on this thread suggested a mass resignation a la 'that year. Yes, we know that it occurred over a quarter of a century ago, but it is the only major precedent for the mass resignation tactic. Quite rightly, a number of responders suggested that a similar tactic in Hong Kong would not end well.

Even though it involved a couple of pissant airlines down under, it had a profound effect globally for years, including solving crewing shortages for, inter alia, Swissair, Malaysian, Singapore, the Gulf airlines and of course Cathay Pacific. Australians became the Filipinos of the aviation industry. The 'grey wall' tactic of no communications with the pilots after the resignations is a response I am sure the industrial warfare consultants still have in their playbooks, along with the threat of legal action which led to the resignations in the first place.

Please indulge me, as I went through it all.

[Arfur Dent]

"Safety is our Number 1 priority" is their mantra.
Withdrawing a fundamental right to a decent home is inconsistent with their No1 priority. So either leave housing alone or see what the public thinks of a new mantra:
"Profits and reducing personnel ( sorry - 'people') costs to an absolute minimum is our No1 priority."
If you guys let this pass you deserve everything you get.

[wongsuzie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMXSLeqFMY

as a history lesson this is how LKY handled the SQ pilots.

[Metro man]

If you are an expat in Hong Kong, I assume your residence permit is tied to your job ? At least the Aussies could sit at home and wait, where as you’d get a couple of weeks to pack up and go. Does anyone fancy paying for their own accommodation and living expenses if you try to wait it out with no pay or benefits ? I doubt the company would be flying you and your family home in business class either.

Disruption to the Hong Kong economy would have you viewed as “enemies of the people”. Air China could be asked to step in by the government, and even if they had to cancel other flights, the capacity would be found to make an example of you and deter industrial militancy in other sectors. Western pilots winning would cause loss of face which can’t be allowed to happen.

Former CX pilots would also be likely to be blacklisted from future employment in China in the event of a mass resignation.

Leave if you want, but have another job lined up. Monarch going bust has put a large number of pilots onto the job market who are concerned about the next mortgage payment and can’t afford to be too fussy about terms and conditions, don’t end up like them.

Best of luck, we all hope you win.

[Freehills]

"Safety is our Number 1 priority" is their mantra.
Withdrawing a fundamental right to a decent home is inconsistent with their No1 priority. So either leave housing alone or see what the public thinks of a new mantra:
"Profits and reducing personnel ( sorry - 'people') costs to an absolute minimum is our No1 priority."
If you guys let this pass you deserve everything you get.

However, already passed this with HKAPA. Just applying it to more crew

[bacou]

If you are an expat in Hong Kong, I assume your residence permit is tied to your job ? At least the Aussies could sit at home and wait, where as you’d get a couple of weeks to pack up and go. Does anyone fancy paying for their own accommodation and living expenses if you try to wait it out with no pay or benefits ? I doubt the company would be flying you and your family home in business class either.

Disruption to the Hong Kong economy would have you viewed as “enemies of the people”. Air China could be asked to step in by the government, and even if they had to cancel other flights, the capacity would be found to make an example of you and deter industrial militancy in other sectors. Western pilots winning would cause loss of face which can’t be allowed to happen.

Former CX pilots would also be likely to be blacklisted from future employment in China in the event of a mass resignation.
Leave if you want, but have another job lined up. Monarch going bust has put a large number of pilots onto the job market who are concerned about the next mortgage payment and can’t afford to be too fussy about terms and conditions, don’t end up like them.

Best of luck, we all hope you win.

Do you imagine a Monach 50 year old Captain flying as an SO in CX, I doubt it.

China needs so many Captains that Spring Air only would take them all.
Bonus they would be able to commute and won’t have to move the family.

[Hotroddy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMXSLeqFMY

as a history lesson this is how LKY handled the SQ pilots.

LKY was a tyrant and Singapore was and still is a dictatorship. So is SQ.

[Hotroddy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMXSLeqFMY

as a history lesson this is how LKY handled the SQ pilots.

LKY was successful because he was a tyrant and Singapore was and still is a dictatorship. So is SQ.

[Dragon69]

This is how China Airlines staff dealt with their issues.

https://youtu.be/i6lNj5D2G50

[Metro man]

Do you imagine a Monach 50 year old Captain flying as an SO in CX, I doubt it.

Do you imagine a 50 year old Monarch Captain flying as a Captain in Cathay if the union gets taken down ?

Australia introduced provision in the regs to enable quick replacement of pilots in the event of another 1989.

[Cafe City]

And somewhat ironically, I recall Monarch was one of the airlines who Ansett dragged in to break the dispute.

[TheGreenDragon]

I think too many guys are getting hot under the collar. Yes the housing for CX ( and ultimatly KA) will be reduced for B scalers. However, it wont happen overnight and a grandfather right for perhaps 2 or 3 years will be inplace to allow reconfiguration of mortgages and/ or current leases.

After that, then its over to 30k a month ( or 21k if you are a KA FO !)

[theCOMEDIAN]

I think too many guys are getting hot under the collar. Yes the housing for CX ( and ultimatly KA) will be reduced for B scalers. However, it wont happen overnight and a grandfather right for perhaps 2 or 3 years will be inplace to allow reconfiguration of mortgages and/ or current leases.

After that, then its over to 30k a month ( or 21k if you are a KA FO !)

Or 14k for a CX FO

[330dryver]

What are CX actually offering instead of ARAPA?

[Freehills]

Presumably HKAPA, as that has been shown to be enough to provide housing, from CX point of view

[azhkman]

I think this is why Saudia built Saudia City--in addition to keep expats from mingling with the locals. Crazy thing, it was seniority based for the entire airline company, so you could have a guy who ordered desks and supplies for the airline owned elementary school with 25 years in to the company living in a furnished multi-story detached house and a new joiner pilot living in an HK-sized flat. Single stewardesses were stuffed into one corner of the complex and not allowed to show their faces. Imagine this scenario in HK.

History aside, I really wonder what this will do to prices in Tung Chung and DB. And I agree that CX is using the SCMP (or New China Daily as it seems now) to win publicity against the pilots. Many expats do not receive housing any more and will have little sympathy for those that do and have it cut. They are counting on continued goodwill from most of the pilot group, it is so obvious from the quotes in the news. So, if industrial action is taken, and holiday plans are ruined or jeopardized, the majority of the public is already against you and will turn on you even more. Honestly, the only road I see for you is broad industrial action; media interviews that do not draw on sympathy, but rather emphasizes the talent you bring to the airline and HK implied safety risks should that talent pool leave to any significant percentage. Seriously, a pilot rep should be on BBG, CNBC, TVB, RTHK, in the Standard, Op-Ed for SCMP, at least a few times a week.

[SloppyJoe]

Why do we care what the public thinks? It has absolutely no bearing on anything.

[330dryver]

so how much is HKAPA? I'm KA...

[JY9024]

Don't sell yourselves short. It's the guys in renters at $100k that there after. Knock it down to $70 and they have there 30%.

If everyone gets put on $30. Very few B scale will stay. Cx / ka can't handle that many walkouts.

[CowardlyPilot]

HKPA is 10 for SO JFO,
14 for FO,
18 for SFO,
24 for Capt,
30 for Senior Capt

[744drv]

Senior Capt 7+ 36,000HKD

[Foxdeux]

Housing was put forth to entice expats since HK lacked an aviation community. And lets face it HK isn't what it used to be, you really need to pay for the talent. Why need housing allowance when you're hiring mostly locals who will take anything as the other alternative is to work for a bank and get paid peanuts and NO HOUSING. Housing will soon be a relic of the past once every pilot is a local.

[bm330]

And again, there is the crux of the problem. There is no local aviation market to draw from. The majority of C Scalers are still expats - S.A., Cdns, Aus, etc - and the only ones knocking on the door can't get a job in the real world. An Airline with no experience base won't last very long in the age of social media and online hysterics.

[Metro man]

The only time management will take notice is if people actually walk. I remember a few years ago we got stuck with a 10% pay cut. Half the Captains left and flights were being cancelled every day, then the cut was restored.

There was no union, no threats and no stand off. Just lots of resignation letters from people who were leaving for new jobs.

[morningcoffee]

Curtain Rod people all around the world owe money to the banks. What's your point? That employers can't touch the remuneration of anyone with a mortgage?

[TheGreenDragon]

Don't sell yourselves short. It's the guys in renters at $100k that there after. Knock it down to $70 and they have there 30%..

But the majority are on mortgage assistance , taking upto $70k. Dont sell out your mates who have large families and choose space over greed. And surely its greed when folks are prepared live in 600sq feet so they can pay off that 10million debt asap?

Ultimatly the company want both purchase and rental options reduced.
If the max rental becomes $70k then the purchase will drop to around $45k max.
Still a sh1t load of money in the real world.

[jetjockey696]

There is a lot talking and talking, talk is good.. Now just ask your colleagues in CX FAU... what to do? i think if they had some kind of allowance and going to lose it soon. there would be a strike on the horizon very soon the next peak period.

[Air Profit]

Well, I have 9 years left on my '15 years' (....where's my 25?) housing deal. At over $70K/mo. With taxes, supporting elderly parents, kids still in school, paying mortgage in home country, retirement, health care. So, when the 9 years is up Anna, come and talk. Until then, well, we'll see just how 'amicable' people like us will stay when our futures and families are threatened. Oh, and as for the rest of the pilots in the airline: HKPA, needs 'normal' housing (ARAPA) as a target. Basings: once they get rid of housing, how long do you think bases will last? The only course of action for all of us is to defend every condition that we have, and then fight for what we are all worth. Otherwise, there will be NO career worth staying for.

(oh, and Green Dragon: your $45K being worth a sh*t load of money in the 'real world'. Not in HK mate, just ask Anna and Rupert)

[Freehills]

Air Profit - I hear you. But the precedent has been set, that HKAPA is good enough for some CX pilots, and it wasn't fought against before by all the pilots, so why expect all the pilots to fight for ARAPA now?

Good luck, and have a credible plan B for you and your family.

[Air Profit]

The answer I expected, and confirmation as to why this airline is now where it is, as compared to where it was 25 years ago. Enjoy the limited career you will undoubtedly experience. Lights out.

[Freehills]

True. The rot set in in 92/93 when the airline wasn't shut down over introduction of B scale. It's been a litany of "I'm alright Jack" since then

[Air Profit]

Correct. And yes, I have a Plan B. Another C and T gone. (and I know, they don't care. But I will be leaving anyway. Life is too short).

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Has anyone considered that CX is actually smart enough to hedge well and that this whole thing has been manufactured to strip CX crew of conditions?

Take a short term hit to save big in the long run. Nothing you can do will change their minds.

Sound familiar? Just look a few thousand miles to the south east for a similar business style.

[Trafalgar]

I've long suspected that this was a contrived "crisis". At first I asked myself, "What sort of idiotic management would make a blunder this catastrophic"?. Especially the length and percentage of hedging. It then occurred to me that not even our management can be that stupid (....:hmm:). The more i've thought about it, the more i'm convinced that they deliberately made this decision to create a financial "problem" to then use as justification for their actions (as an example, they layed off 800 staff, but they have been rapidly rehiring in nearly all areas immediately after...). I am convinced this was a deliberate strategy, that simply got out of hand, with the price of oil staying lower for longer than they had anticipated. CX knows full well that they will soon be raking in record profits again. Even most of the top Investment Banks have released analyst reports stating so. If we don't stand up to them now (and I suggest that most of us are too stressed and ill to work reliably) then we will forever be crushed, and our careers worthless. I expect to see all my colleagues doing their part over the next 90 days to demonstrate to this venal and self-serving management group that there is a heavy price to pay for attacking us and treating us and our families with contempt. Up to every one of us to do our part to throw it back in their "smelly teeth" (a favourite Churchill quote!). This is THE very last chance to re-establish a proper balance between management and employees. Or does everyone like being treated this way?

[FUANNA]

So very true....

[Foxdeux]

Which company audits CX?

[Shep69]

Well said.

Consider what happened and how conservative the airline has been with testing the waters in EVERY OTHER ARENA. For its entire history. Always. That's why it doesn't make sense

And I'd REALLY like to see where exactly the money has gone in detail and who was the beneficiary of our 'blunder.'

[a370]

Don't actually care at this point. I've been ready to go for the past year. Meddling with my housing would result in my wife and I being gone in 90 days. Not even negotiable. Many many other T and C have the same bottom line.

I saw 2 years ago , by who ?
The stalwart of stand up n fight.
The together we are stronger BS merchant. LOL


Trafalgar , ffs, you really are full of HOT air. Now float away old chap n let off that steam on a beach somehere in Bali. Lol.

[raven11]

Ignore the troll.

[Freehills]

Which company audits CX?

KPMG according to the annual reports

[okm]

Sound familiar? Just look a few thousand miles to the south east for a similar business style.

What? PNG! :sad:

[Busbert]

Oh well, never mind. I did my stint, maxed out the housing allowance on mortgages, cashed out after 10 years and headed off to better prospects elsewhere. The music stopped years ago, but a lot of people are still dancing.

[cxorcist]

Oh well, never mind. I did my stint, maxed out the housing allowance on mortgages, cashed out after 10 years and headed off to better prospects elsewhere. The music stopped years ago, but a lot of people are still dancing.

... and therein lies the problem.

[Freehills]

No, the two bucket rule if expat.

Two buckets, one of annoyance, one of cash. When either is full. quit

[CodyBlade]

Sound familiar? Just look a few thousand miles to the south east for a similar business style.

New Caledonia?

[Dan Winterland]

No, the two bucket rule if expat. Two buckets, one of annoyance, one of cash. When either is full. quit

Unfortunately, it seems now the bucket of brown stuff is always going to fill faster than the bucket of glittery stuff. And quite fast at that!

[positionalpor]

Scary,
another 3 US based FO have left.
At this pace Cx will shut down

[morningcoffee]

The 3 months is up just after Christmas though I know it's still a ways off. Can the AOA release the new B scale housing numbers from the company before then please.
Most of us have done our calculations and we'd like to see what the new package is. Can't see it changing between now and then and I appreciate all the AOA has done for us so far.

[Amber Vibes]

The 3 months is up just after Christmas though I know it's still a ways off. Can the AOA release the new B scale housing numbers from the company before then please.
Most of us have done our calculations and we'd like to see what the new package is. Can't see it changing between now and then and I appreciate all the AOA has done for us so far.

C'mon CX doesn't make any moves until they have planned, thought it out, and planned some more. They already know what the amount will be. I bet a month's housing allowance, that CX won't release the actual figures for the reduced housing terms until AFTER peak Christmas/New Year's rush. If you guys wait until then, you will have no leverage. It will really be too late.

[Air Profit]

No worries Amber. I, and many many of my colleagues are not 'waiting' until after the holidays. We all realise that it is imperative to cause maximum pain between now and then. It is obvious the company is waiting to see how we react in order to determine how they act. If we do nothing, they will hit us with the maximum cuts. If we demonstrate the value of our goodwill, but withdrawing it and disrupting the operation, then they will have to think twice about embarking on any action. There really is NO choice but for all of us to take individual action, which collectively will take the operation down. Much like the pilots are doing now at Ryanair. We all know what we HAVE to do.

[LS8C1]

Does anyone know of anyone who has anyone left / handed in their notice as a result of all this? I'm no longer at Cathay, but from what I'm hearing it seems a total sh1t show.
Or is everyone going to stay still and soak up whatever they offer?

[Amber Vibes]

No worries Amber. I, and many many of my colleagues are not 'waiting' until after the holidays. We all realise that it is imperative to cause maximum pain between now and then. It is obvious the company is waiting to see how we react in order to determine how they act. If we do nothing, they will hit us with the maximum cuts. If we demonstrate the value of our goodwill, but withdrawing it and disrupting the operation, then they will have to think twice about embarking on any action. There really is NO choice but for all of us to take individual action, which collectively will take the operation down. Much like the pilots are doing now at Ryanair. We all know what we HAVE to do.

Air Profit, et als., IMHO the only thing they will understand is a disruption to their operation or anything that will make their stakeholders nervous. You all have inherent value and tremendous strength in numbers. You have the ability to fight back WITH RESULTS if you internalise this. I know what happened the last time there was an undertaking of this nature. However, if the pilot group had just stood their ground, they would have prevailed in the end. What was CX going to do? Continue firings en masse until no one was left to fly their planes? Of course not. I'm sure they will attempt this again because it worked so well in the past and had a lasting impact. However, if you stand your ground and don't capitulate when they try to intimidate you, you will prevail. They ultimately need people to fly their planes and they can't commit murder/suicide. Then, when they choose to negotiate in earnest, you can stipulate that they bring everyone back that they fired during this time period before any negotiations can take place.

This really is the only way you will get results. I don't make light of how difficult this would be in terms of stress and uncertainty. It's a real gut check. I call it the pucker factor. I think you will accomplish positive change if you hold your ground.

[a370]

Or is everyone going to stay still and soak up whatever they offer?

Rhetorical question alert. Why would a CX 777 Skipper leave?
Still getting Schooling in CX
Still will get housing in CX
Still will have an easy roster in CX

China, LOL
Ryanair?

The choice is small. The disruption of leaving is greater than the stress of staying for the golden handcuff brigade.

talk on PPRUNE, well that cost nuffin. Get it outta the system on here.
Then suck it up?

Who took the commands of the 49'ers after they were fired? Yep Goathead et al.
Stand your ground I hear Traf say. Yeah right.

[raven11]

Troll alert. Ignore.

[Average Fool]

Troll alert. Ignore.

Ignore the truth?

That's what got you in this mess to begin with.

For gods sake, stand up for yourselves for once in your lives!!!

[morningcoffee]

C'mon CX doesn't make any moves until they have planned, thought it out, and planned some more. They already know what the amount will be. I bet a month's housing allowance, that CX won't release the actual figures for the reduced housing terms until AFTER peak Christmas/New Year's rush. If you guys wait until then, you will have no leverage. It will really be too late.

What I was alluding to was the fact that the AOA have known the new amounts for a while but have decided to continue dialogue with the company rather than tell their membership.

I'd actually at this point like to know what the company is offering. I'm more than happy for the AOA to try to better it but I'd like to know what it is.

[Trafalgar]

Morningcoffee. The "AOA" is not going to "better" the amounts. Only the members can do that, through an individually but collectively strategic plan to cause maximum disruption to the operation over the next 90 days. If you aren't already planning when you are feeling unwell and unfit, then please, don't bother complaining. ALL of us MUST stand up to them now. They are waiting to see how we react. We must give them a taste of their own medicine...for once!! If you go to work, put up with the crap and then see your entire career value stripped away, then you will only have yourself to blame. It's time to fight for what is left of this career. Otherwise there will be NO career to speak of. You will be nothing more than a rolling 3-month contract pilot.

[Dragon69]

I wonder what the trainers would do if management cuts a deal with them and keeps them on full housing while they reduce it for everyone else.

[Trafalgar]

...worth a read:

"How do you get loyalty from the people who work for you. You treat them with respect, you are grateful for the time and effort they put in for you, you praise them and care about them as people and you protect them, you make sure their working conditions are suitable and safe and you pay them a decent wage so they can look after themselves and their families. There's probably loads more. Mr Oleary and others take note."

[Amber Vibes]

Rhetorical question alert. Why would a CX 777 Skipper leave?
Still getting Schooling in CX
Still will get housing in CX
Still will have an easy roster in CX

China, LOL
Ryanair?

The choice is small. The disruption of leaving is greater than the stress of staying for the golden handcuff brigade.

talk on PPRUNE, well that cost nuffin. Get it outta the system on here.
Then suck it up?

Who took the commands of the 49'ers after they were fired? Yep Goathead et al.
Stand your ground I hear Traf say. Yeah right.

Division is exactly what CX wants. Everytime you have a go at each other, they delight in the knowledge that the intimidation tactics they used the last time around worked so well and had such a lasting impact. You have to put aside hard feelings and focus on the issue at hand. Don't allow yourselves to be distracted and divided. It's what they want!

[Trafalgar]

Too true Amber. We need to all stick together, cripple the operation and re-establish a proper balance between employer and employee. If we don’t do it now , there is NO CAREER left at CX. Besides, who here could stand to see such a creature as AT win the war? You know what you have to do. For the sake of your careers, your families and your integrity and pride.

[Trafalgar]

December will prove a very difficult time for the traveling public. You can forward any enquiries to Anna. She can explain why most of her pilots are not fit for duty. Something regarding concern and worry about their finances and families.....

[jumbobelle]

Quite, though rather than tell AT or the forums, tell your AME! As pilots we are notoriously reluctant to do this, maybe now is a good time to consider stress levels, sleep quality and whether they are impacting on the line. Interesting NASA article for those that way inclined on how life stress affects pilot performance and the link between preoccupation and accident markers.

http ://scholar.google.com.hk/scholar_url?url=http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.483.723%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&hl=en&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm1fQ5ul4PP9iwFTjuFAiYAEgMl8tA&nossl=1&oi=scholarr&ved=0ahUKEwjDg4auruDWAhWLlpQKHTPPDwAQgAMIJSgAMAA

[Metro man]

Management look at numbers and a lack of pilot turnover has led them to believe that they are paying too much. They would like to see a certain amount of churn to know that they have got the package at the correct level. Not so high that no one ever leaves and not so low that experience levels become a problem or that the training department gets overwhelmed with new joiners.

Ryanair finally listened and improved pay and conditions only after the numbers of crew leaving resulted in flight cancellations.

Back in 1989 the Australian domestic pilots had a stranglehold on an essential service and still lost. A vast country with little alternative to air transport given the distances involved and lack of a high speed rail network. Every sector from business to tourism felt the pain and had no alternative airlines they could use.

Hong Kong obviously has no internal flights, connecting traffic can easily switch to EK, SQ, QR, EY etc. Passengers either originating in Hong Kong or having it as their destination can switch to the other airline on the route who may be able to lay on an extra flight or two. Buses could be laid on to ZGGG and ZGSZ and ferries to VMMC to catch flights from these airports.

Public sympathy would be zero if CNY travel plans were disrupted.

Disruption and inconvenience would be considerable but the starting position is much weaker than the Aussies were in 28 years ago.

[Trafalgar]

hmmm, well you would have had a good point, other than the obvious oversight: you can hardly get a seat to most of our major destinations. London, LA, NY, all of Aus....hardly a seat available. Especially over the holidays. I know who I wouldn't be booking my holiday travel with. Oh, and please...regarding public sympathy. I stopped worrying about that 20 years ago. Nothing concerns me less.

[Progress Wanchai]

Metro Man,

You make a very good argument as to why management are screwed.
It’s cx that want concessions. The crew are happy with their legally enforceable contract. The only way the status quo can change is for management to shut the place down. CX know as well as you do that there’ll be nothing left to open back up for should that happen.
It’d be the ultimate nuclear option.

Fortunately there’s 2 other share holders that own more than 50 percent of the company that aren’t real happy with Swire blowing the place up.
Actually, they’re not real happy with Swire...

[Amber Vibes]

Metro Man,

You make a very good argument as to why management are screwed.
It’s cx that want concessions. The crew are happy with their legally enforceable contract. The only way the status quo can change is for management to shut the place down. CX know as well as you do that there’ll be nothing left to open back up for should that happen.
It’d be the ultimate nuclear option.

Fortunately there’s 2 other share holders that own more than 50 percent of the company that aren’t real happy with Swire blowing the place up.
Actually, they’re not real happy with Swire...

Perhaps any letters should be addressed to the other majority shareholders instead of Swire or CX Mngt.

[morningcoffee]

Trafalgar, with respect I'm already a rolling 3 month contract pilot. But if the AOA can't change the new arapa housing deal then what purpose does it serve to withold it from members so the said members can't organise their lives?

[Progress Wanchai]

Then ask the DFO what it’ll be. It’s the company’s **** sandwich, not the AOA’s.
The AOA’s position is clear. If you’re on clause 4 or 5, what you’ll receive today is what you’ll receive tomorrow.

[morningcoffee]

If you're suggesting myself and therefore my peers discuss our employment issues with the company directly then why bother being in the AOA. If that's where we're at?

[Uberskyjockey]

Monday 30th October

[Trafalgar]

Noted. And that is just a start. Every monday sounds pretty good for the next 90 days.

[Uberskyjockey]

You've got it Trafalgar

[jumbobelle]

Action's good but what we really need is media coverage. There's a wave to ride on the back of Ryanair, which has been a huge story. 'Cathay passengers fear travel chaos over Christmas' 'safety concerns as stressed pilots face losing homes'. If only the Daily Mail was over here.

[kahaha]

. If only the Daily Mail was over here.

Be careful what you wish for . DM like the SCMP is not pro worker. Its owned and operated by big business for big business. Period.

The DM no doubt supports the common down trodden Ryanair passenger. It would turn immediately on a pilot group thatputs its self interest first. Ditto the SCMP.