Jetstar Chief Pilot gets the Axe

[Tony the Tiler]

Well, that experiment is over. Back to normal programming and common sense?

Hello Tyrone.:ok:

Or are they going to HR searching for a candidate from the ship of fools?

[crosscutter]

Well, that experiment is over. Back to normal programming and common sense?

Hello Tyrone.:ok:

Or are they going to HR searching for a candidate from the ship of fools?

Maybe JH and GS couldn't stand to be apart

[dragon man]

Excuse my ignorance here, however was she pushed or did she jump? Would people that were there say there was anything good came from her time there besides leaving?

[maggot]

Excuse my ignorance here, however was she pushed or did she jump? Would people that were there say there was anything good came from her time there besides leaving?
It's just the cultural resistance to all things Qantas

[leakyboats]

Excuse my ignorance here, however was she pushed or did she jump? Would people that were there say there was anything good came from her time there besides leaving?

Annual Leave – NO
Rostering – NO
Fatigue Management – NO
Engagement – NO
Expansion – NO
Management of the AOC – NO

It’s almost like she was a direct plant to run the place so incompetently that the AOC is lost.

[dragon man]

Annual Leave – NO
Rostering – NO
Fatigue Management – NO
Engagement – NO
Expansion – NO
Management of the AOC – NO

It’s almost like she was a direct plant to run the place so incompetently that the AOC is lost.

Thank you, it looks like it will be a wonderful experience having her at the terminal looking after us then.😟

[Lookleft]

It's just the cultural resistance to all things Qantas

What a load of BS! Incompetence is incompetence. Pilot numbers wrong, insufficient LS leave allocations. The personnel side had to be fixed up by Qantas. She got rid of any flight ops manager who didn't kow tow to her and was in the process of getting rid of the 787 Training Manager for the same reason. No one other than some sycophants are going to miss her and it has nothing to do with her QF background.

[Capt_SNAFU]

Sounds like the coffee shop at international will be the new base (which one though, mmmmmm), though I will try to keep an open mind.

[mohikan]

Not her fault - hugely undermined from within by Qantas haters. Ironically of course all aspects of JQ remain a sham business propped up by red tail money.

She didn't brown nose enough to the Ansett 1989 mafia that infest Jetstar and she also tried to break their insidious influence over A320 training / ops in particular.

The A320 training and culture is a throwback to Ansett 1980 - lots of little 'local' SOPs and procedures that aren't actually applicable to the current variant of the aircraft operated by the carrier.

Airbus would have a field day if they conducted an audit.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Oh leaky boats again.
Planted by whom? Can you explain to the crowd who could appoint her to do such a thing. I doubt QF Flight ops have that power and I doubt management would want that. You guys are nuts. She's better off out of the asylum.
I get you guys might not have liked her. But get a grip. Nothing in that list is unique to JQ.

I give it 5 years.

[DirectAnywhere]

Engagement – NO
Expansion – NO

Oh please! Stop it! You're killing me here! (Do you do kids' parties, because that's comedy gold right there?)

[Flava Saver]

“A” previous regime was with a big stick & loved SOCs & attaching on an email was challenging all the time it seemed ‘folks’. The current one was a lot of nothing, apart from deck chairs being moved and people quitting. Rostering is still a lottery every month. Fatigue reports are still on the increase. Apathy is at an all time high, even with great profits. Imagine if they got someone in there who was respected after all these years. There’s plenty of great candidates internally, but cue the circus music, pass the pop corn and see how this one plays out.

[Gnadenburg]

The A320 training and culture is a throwback to Ansett 1980 - lots of little 'local' SOPs and procedures that aren't actually applicable to the current variant of the aircraft operated by the carrier.

Airbus would have a field day if they conducted an audit.


I thought Ansett Airbus training was excellent. Accidentally ahead of its time.

I've worked for three Airbus operators, with seven different sets of SOPs, because Airbus is so bloody hopeless I don't know how they haven't gotten away with an audit.

Also, command pass rate at Ansett was in the high 90%'s. I work for a lunatic outfit now in Hong Kong where we had 0% for awhile and funnily enough, Ansett had a better flying/ airmanship standard in my opinion.

[AnNav]

Not her fault - hugely undermined from within by Qantas haters. Ironically of course all aspects of JQ remain a sham business propped up by red tail money.

She didn't brown nose enough to the Ansett 1989 mafia that infest Jetstar and she also tried to break their insidious influence over A320 training / ops in particular.

The A320 training and culture is a throwback to Ansett 1980 - lots of little 'local' SOPs and procedures that aren't actually applicable to the current variant of the aircraft operated by the carrier.

Airbus would have a field day if they conducted an audit.

Mm gee that narrows that down. As most of the staff had no respect for her.Not just the ex AN guys

[Weary traveller]

Here, here Gnads. I concur.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

Hey Mohikan,

Please regale us with an example or two of the SOPs that you say "...aren't actually applicable to the current variant...operated by the carrier..."?

[FlareArmed2]

Well I can tell a few stories about non-standard SOPs at JQ...

I joined JQ about a decade ago. New to AB but many many years on Boeings. Early line training taught the JQ go-around "double-tap" technique, where you briefly advance the thrust levers to TOGA and immediately pull them back. No documentation. No SOPs. No FCOM amendment. All word-of-mouth. I queried and remember saying that it was a set-up, bound to trap someone and at the very least, it should be documented and run by AB. Told to wind my neck in, quite abusive actually and treated like an idiot.

If I'd put in paperwork I'd have been a hero for predicting exactly what occurred in YMML six months later when a JQ aircraft went within 50'AGL during a mis-handled GA, where the very technique I was criticising failed for the exact reasons I gave. However it transpired that the paperwork for THAT incident was suppressed by JQ and not passed to CASA, so I have long comforted myself with the theory that if I had said anything at the time my efforts would have been similarly suppressed, as well as facing the possibility of becoming known as a trouble maker, and that being held against me when it came to command upgrade.

During command training while on a turn-around we had a minor maintenance issue, that I duly wrote up in the Tech Log, annotated with the correct MEL actions. This was allowed at outports with no maintenance support if the MEL only had "O" actions, and no "M" actions. A reasonable and sensible policy. However the Checker queried my actions because it would make us late. I had a copy of the turn-around sequence, where everything is mapped out and timed to the minute, to make turn-arounds 35 minutes. I pointed out that no where on this sequence allowed any time for maintenance actions, therefore if there is any Tech Log/maintenance duties we would automatically be late. His response: I should leave all Tech Log/maintenance/MEL actions to be done at the end of the day, after the last leg, and disregard the MEL on turn-arounds. He was smart enough not to put that in writing, but he wrote me up badly, especially highlighting how I could not "manage time during a turn-around".

Pressure to not follow CASA rules. On the MEL. From a checker. On command upgrade.

Again I should have put paperwork in, directly to CASA. At the very least this checker should have lost his quals as a checker, but as it appeared to be unofficial JQ policy the whole attitude of JQ needed adjusting. I needed the job and the upgrade, so I kept quiet.

A friend had a loss of hydraulics on take-off from Melbourne. Followed the ECAM. Second hydraulic system failed. Flew circuit, returned on the blue system (this is the tiny little third system -practically nothing on it - for those not familiar with AB). Called into office and bollocked. Why didn't you turn off the PTU* they asked? I followed the ECAM he said. Oh, but everyone KNOWS that's what you do with loss of fluid to prevent a double hydraulic failure, they said. He stood his ground, said he followed the ECAM**.

*(PTU might be a Boeing term, after so long I can't remember the AB name). It powers either of the two main hydraulic systems from the other main one. With loss of fluid in one system it seizes, causing a loss of hydraulics in both mains. There is an AB mod for it to automatically shut down, but JQ didn't purchase the mod. JQ ALSO did not amend their documentation so that pilots knew to do this manually. The end result: piss poor SOPs, pilot disciplined. JQ said it was all his fault. This was after he flew an exemplary double-hydraulic failure approach and landing (not trivial in an AB).

**(again, memory fails me. It MIGHT have been in the ECAM at the time, but buried way down the list. In AB, the first ECAM following a loss of hydraulics is that the gear won't retract, so they were dealing with that ECAM first (as per AB procedures), and the loss of hydraulics is later in the ECAM list, and possibly somewhere in there is the instruction to turn off the PTU***) ***or whatever the damn thing is called.

I learnt to not trust JQ SOPs. Nor management.

A while later, Adelaide base closed. Friend of mine there was told on Anzac Day (? or maybe just after) and he had ten days to start work in Darwin. Ten days to cancel his rental contract, lose his bond, find new accommodation, get his wife a new job and find schools for his kids. His description of the "help" given by JQ was astonishing, and too long for here. In the end he got tired of his questions being unanswered (I think he had to get a boat and a dog to Darwin, and wanted to know if that would be reimbursed) so he just billed JQ anyway. He said towards the end the liaison office didn't even bother to answer phone calls or emails.

A while after that, more Ansett pilots came back from the ME and I was told I had to go to Darwin. I said no, seniority meant blah blah. I was told how that wasn't fair to the Ansett pilots because they needed to back in Melbourne and told a sob story of how hard their life was. Basically I was told to shove it, I would not get the aircraft type I wanted (in seniority), the base I wanted (in seniority) nor the C+T upgrade I was trying for (based mainly on previous Boeing experience).

Put on a four sector flight. First sector a C+T in the right seat (not my check, they were short of FOs). We got a manual loadsheet. He had no idea how to check it, I had to teach him. We got airborne. He had no idea about ETOPs. Got to ToD and told to cross waypoint X at time blah. He couldn't figure that out either. In conversation he told me he joined in 1989, was originally a low hour bush pilot and if it wasn't for what went on then he'd never have gotten his career. I don't hold his choice against him, but he was clearly still a marginal pilot now, twenty years later. Obviously coasting. This was a C+T and I was being told I couldn't get that because Ansett pilots deserved it better.

Second sector: new FO. Had flown with this FO in the sim four weeks prior. He failed the sim - not by a little bit, but by a lot. He was well below standard. Sim instructor after much hemming and hawing said he would give a "conditional pass" (whatever that means) and would schedule the FO for some extra sim sessions to "catch up". So I asked the FO about the extra sim sessions. He never got them, nothing. I flew the entire way thinking that if anything happened I would be single pilot ops.

Landed. Spoke to a friend in the ME. Resigned from JQ. Had no job to go to at the time. Never regretted it, never looked back.

Got a nice letter from the Chief Pilot asking me why. I never replied to him but I should have, and I should've told him the above story. I had no rancour or bitterness, it was just that I didn't want to be part of a company that treated people this way, and had such a poor standard of C+T. I wish I'd been braver about standing up to regs being breached, but I know I would have risked my career and nothing would have changed. The CP wasn't bad, but he clearly couldn't change things. IIRC he left a little after me.

I fly in China now. Aircraft are better maintained, never a single thing wrong with them. All ops according to the manual. Any time I've seen a (very slight) deviation, all I have to do is pull out the FM or the MEL, and there is no problem. Everything is standard. Compared to JQ, it's a dream job, very easy to fly. No special procedures, nothing non-standard.

[Sunfish]

It is alleged here that Jetstar is are using non standard SOP's (not approved by Airbus). It also sounds like the flight operations management is seriously unstable. Where are you CASA?

I was almost going to say something nice about jetstar since SWMBO used FF points on a holiday flight that turned out to be not too bad, apart from the inexperienced and visibly anxious flight attendant in our part of the cabin.

[Ollie Onion]

Well I for one appreciate the time she has spent at Jetstar, the 'clicky' inner sanctum of Flight Ops Management that was in place when she arrived deserved to be blown apart and scattered to the far corners of the airline and that is what she did. There were a couple of good blokes that suffered as a consequence but it had to happen, the Check and Training system was a disgrace as was the safety system. Both are in a better position as a result of the restructure that Georgina led. I did wonder last month if she would be going soon as she made so many enemies in her time here that I think her position became untenable in the long run. I mean rumour at the time was that the 'surprise' CASA Audit from a couple of years ago was triggered by one of our so called self appointed 'respected' managers that had been shown the door. Hopefully we don't start to slip back to old ways.

[John Citizen]

FlareArmed:

it's a dream job (China) :confused:

You really must be dreaming and you need to wake up.:p

Obviously the heavy toxic pollution in China has caused you severe mental delusion as you really have your hand on it if you thinking flying in China is so much better than Australia. :eek:

Or maybe your original post was edited by a Chinese propaganda editor. :eek:

No doubt the money is better, but that might be the only good thing. The only reason they need to pay so much is to get people to work there and compensate them for all the Chinese bull****. :eek:

These threads say it all : http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/564634-working-pilot-china.html?highlight=china

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/89413-working-pilot-china.html

The book "Flying Upside down says it all" :eek:

http://www92.zippyshare.com/v/rRE4ARC2/file.html

Do you need me to quote some stories ?:ugh:

Keep on dreaming mate :D

[FlareArmed2]

...you really have your hand on it if you thinking flying in China is so much better than Australia

Didn't say it was better than Australia, I said it was better than JQ. And it is, in fact, the best (or equal best) job I've ever had. Maybe I've just had bad airlines lol.

There are many, many airlines in China, so tarring them all with the same brush is ridiculous. You wouldn't claim that every airline in Australia is the same, would you?

It is also interesting to see the CAAC at work, compared to CASA. They are far more proactive. They hand out massive penalties to airlines, not just in the millions of $, but also restrict expansion for x years or put other limits on a company in response to safety issues. I get the impression that the airline management have a real fear of the CAAC and do everything they can to make sure the operation is safe and by the book.

The amount of flying in China is extraordinary, the sheer number of people is amazing. It's a fascinating place to live and work.

Do you need me to quote some stories ?

No thanks, I think I've got a better understanding than you do. Your attempt to derail an interesting discussion is not really helpful.

Some posters here indicate the recent CP was attempting to change/improve the culture at JQ. If so, I applaud her efforts. I wish everyone at JQ the best and I hope things improve.

It's very hard to change a company's culture. Look at EK, probably the same or a little worse than 20 years ago. Or CX, same comment. I don't know what JQ is like today, maybe it's exceptional.

Everyone has their limits. I reached mine and left.

[John Citizen]

Didn't say it was better than Australia, I said it was better than JQ

But flying for JQ means living and working in Australia. (Australian lifestyle, very competent English speaking Australian ATC (compared to China), ...and everything else)

It is not just the airline you need to look at but the country you live and work in, which makes up the overall package.

I sense you have deep resentment towards JQ. (as per your original post)

JQ is nothing as bad as some of those stories in the book "Flying Upside down".

Keep on dreaming mate. :D

[Dark Knight]

JC; you really do need to get out and explore the `Real' world a great deal more.

You will find, to start with,progressive countries actually building things, many modern things not a country stagnating with old, very old, inadequate, crumbling infrastructure,

Countries when, where they build a freeway it is 6, 8 0r 10 lanes designed for the future not taking 50/60 years to build it as did the link Melbourne to Sydney to Brisbane with each other. Not talking about building a second airport for Sydney for 50 years that I am aware of. (have they actually started yet? HKG demolished a mountain, built a magnificent suspension bridge with freeway and a very good new airport in what 6 years?).

China has rebuilt many, many modern cities over the last 10- 15 years. The Emirates have rebuilt and built many modern cities with full infrastructure over the last 20 years.

Many, many countries have modern high speed railways over long distance Russia; Moscow- Leningrad 400 miles - 2 hours. The last rail project of note here under PM John Howard was Alice Springs Darwin furthermore under time, under budget.

Nuclear, low emission coal fired power stations supplying reliable, high quality electricity for progress, new modern industries whilst we blow ours up.

Australian lifestyle - under very, very serious attack deteriorating at an alarming pace; competent English speaking with an increasing number of interpreters available, increasing number of different language shop signs and attendants; `competent English speaking Australian ATC' - good reason to suggest the competency is questionable and not necessarily better than many, many overseas countries.

The competency of CASA, Airservices and ATSB, particularly CASA is highly questionable.

and everything else Yes, great weather and it was a great place to live however, should not get of our tails and protect it, correct the path we are headed on, the overall package is not looking that great.

[Gnadenburg]

It is alleged here that Jetstar is are using non standard SOP's (not approved by Airbus). It also sounds like the flight operations management is seriously unstable. Where are you CASA?


I've flown Airbus for over 20 years. The aircraft procedures were in constant evolution. We were taught at the early stages to fly the aircraft as you would say a Boeing 727. So coming around the corner, high on slope, guess what? There was no "Airbus" procedure for intercept from above. You actually had a number of intuitive options or common sense procedural options.

Easiest option being, turn off the FD's, fly the aircraft onto the ILS and reinstate the automatics. If I did that today I'd be labelled a cowboy but that said, I do have the skills to swing from different modes of automation without the confusion plaguing the children of the magenta line ( which can actually be an old Boeing guy on an Airbus ).

In this instance, a decade later Airbus, came up with a cumbersome intercept from above procedure that sadly, many pilots are still making a mess off- set the alt above current, pannickly pull ALT thinking they'll idle onto the G/S but vrrrooom up comes the power and away we go. Funnily enough Sunfish, I can recover that situation within 2s from a disorientated PF but I guess that's a non-standard SOP or non- approved Airbus technique! Now I'm potentially in the situation of a high energy GA, which again has no SOP nor Airbus approved technique and just for emphasis, Airbus has had three + hull losses in high energy Go Arounds. I could go on about this but let's just say, even Airbus has decided that the old Ansett techniques of training from basic jet ( we started on Links ) and building automation through the course delivers a pilot product who is less vulnerable to mode confusions that you can not write a procedure for.

Procedures evolved from crashes or near crashes, all the while new software turns up without explanation.

People ( like you in you ) want a procedure written for everything. Because its a lot easier than producing rounded and experienced aviators. Then these same people who bureaucratize flying to the extent elemental skills and airmanship are second fiddle to cumbersome manuals, have big opinions on disasters such as AF.

[Lookleft]

There were a couple of good blokes that suffered as a consequence but it had to happen,

Like RD? He was told his management job was no longer available and that he could go back to being an F/O in ADL as was TS. He suffered alright and his family is still suffering. Then there was KVE and PT. All good managers and respected by the pilot group. There was no need to have them as "collateral damage" in the struggle for authority. I'm not sure how safety is better off as there are no stats or evidence of an improvement. Just creating a Manager Fleet Safety position doesn't mean safety is any better. Its by no means any worse than it was but I haven't seen where it has improved over the last three year. Jetstar will be better served by a competent manager from within who knows the culture of the airline. There are lots of good choices such as RH and CS for starters. There are lots of ladder climbers as well so hopefully the recruitment process will see through them.

[engine out]

I’m sorry but anybody, good bloke or not who gets a management position to bypass where seniority would dictate they can be knows the risks associated with it. All management positions are transitory and the seniority position will dictate where you end up in the end.

[Ollie Onion]

Look left, sadly that is the risk you run when you enter a seniority based airline and take a Management job or Checking Position which affords a base and rank out of seniority. When the wheels stop then you may find yourself having to slot back in where your number allows you, I didn't mean that safety was 'better' as such but that we had made good progress from MM going nuts at every incident and summoning crew to head office for a bollocking followed by 2 sims, 10 sectors line training and a check to line even if the event was something along the lines of not having the right document on the aircraft. I think Georgina has started us off done a good path and as you say there are some top and obvious candidates for the job, whether any of them get it remains to be seen. I think that as the Cheif Pilot is meant to be the 'pilots' rep at management level the Company should produce a short list of 3 or 4 candidates and then the pilot group should be balloted to select the person who gets the job :-)

[Bleve]

I think that as the Cheif Pilot is meant to be the 'pilots' rep at management level the Company should produce a short list of 3 or 4 candidates and then the pilot group should be balloted to select the person who gets the job :-)

In my best Darryl Kerrigan impersonation: 'Tell him he's dreaming' :}

[Rashid Bacon]

I think Georgina has started us off done a good path......

Ollie - I don't know what planet you are on, but it certainly aint earth.

[Con Catenator]

The A320 training and culture is a throwback to Ansett 1980 - lots of little 'local' SOPs and procedures that aren't actually applicable to the current variant of the aircraft operated by the carrier...... Mohikan, I'd also like to see some specific examples of these pesky 'local SOPs and procedures'.

It's bullsh!t :ok:

[finalapp4good]

I think it's a given (well to most in here anyway) that the orange cancer airline is a basket case with an unhealthy core, probably the same could be said for another LCC in Oz who go from one disaster to another! Welcome to Australia !

[titan uranus]

What does A320 procedures have to do with the Chief Pilots exit?

In fact, what did the Chief pilot have to do with the Airbus Fleet?

Diversionary tactics as opposed to Diversity tactics

[Bula]

I will give GS a little empathy. She had ideas and was willing to challenge the status quo. However, there is a big difference between having the ideas and the ability to drive a team in executing them successfully. I hope she has realised, a little too late, that you need the people around you. Those that challenge your own ideas and preconceptions can create extremely positive outcomes, and to do that you need to be a communicator. That, too be frank, was the downfall. It needed to be more than lip service.