Near Miss @ HKIA

[amalfi]

Pilots forced to brake on runway at Hong Kong airport to avoid collision with cargo plane | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/2112420/near-miss-hong-kong-airport-prompts-investigation)

[Near Miss]

Wasn't me. :}

[Average Fool]

This isn't surprising.

The conditional clearances given for runway crossings/lineup are inviting disaster.

"Behind departing 7## cross runway XX"

Or

"Behind landing traffic line up and wait behind"

[Airbubba]

Bauhina 236 (Air Hong Kong 236) is cleared for takeoff at 0054Z, about 22:44 into this LiveAtc.net VHHH South Tower clip:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vhhh/VHHH-Twr-South-Sep-22-2017-0030Z.mp3

Global Cargo 831 crosses 07R at J6 as Bauhina 236 starts the takeoff roll. Bauhina rejects, exits left at J6, is cleared J, J1 holding point for 07R for another try after reconfiguring and getting information on the other plane for the report.

Global Cargo 831 checks in at about 18:25 in this South Ground recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/vhhh/VHHH-Gnd-South-Sep-22-2017-0030Z.mp3

They are given taxi W, hold short of H. Approaching W at 20:30 into the clip, Global Cargo 831 is given taxi via J, J6, holding point which they read back adding the runway 07R.

At about 24:25 Global Cargo 831 calls holding short of 07R at J6 and is immediately given taxi K, L2, C12. I did not hear a conditional clearance for the crossing or an explicit clearance to cross 07R. But, the controller did give taxi instructions to the bay and did not say hold short, a definite trap set in my opinion. :eek:

A brief discussion between the ground controller and Global Cargo 831 ensues at 25:12 and Global Cargo reiterates (correctly from what I hear on the tape) that they reported at the holding point J6 and were cleared to taxi K, L2, C12.

As always, these LiveAtc.net clips seem to have slightly different times depending on the .mp3 player. Also, download these files if you think you might want to listen to them a year from now when the report is out. These audio links usually expire in 30 days.

FlightRadar24 has excellent coverage of the event with its Playback feature.

[SloppyJoe]

Can someone explain the odd Hong Kong ATCism, when a runway is closed at night the clearance to cross includes "cleared to cross the active runway 07/25/L/R? When the runway is open and operational it's just plain old "cleared to cross 07/25..."

Why?

[Below the glide]

Indeed could’ve been a disastrous day in HK yesterday.

I agree with the comments based on ATC clearances and possible ambiguities that exist.

A big well done to the crew of Hong Kong Airlines, a rejected takeoff, although at a low speed regime (around 80kts) but in close proximity was well executed.

Nil further!

[Avinthenews]

I noticed the ground controller got two call signs incorrect earlier in the recording CX 067/037 & a KA flight which he was corrected on.

I wonder how long he was on shift or if any other personal factors will be looked at.

The usual instruction is for ground to say hold at J6 contact tower 118.4

Guessing the poor bloke thought they had already crossed the runway so gave the taxi to bay instructions.

Now will the CAD investigate this correctly?!

[corrigin]

This isn't surprising.

The conditional clearances given for runway crossings/lineup are inviting disaster.

"Behind departing 7## cross runway XX"

Or

"Behind landing traffic line up and wait behind"


Two things:

1) These aren't "conditional clearances"; they're instructions. Clearances are specified as such i.e. Cleared for take off, cleared to land, cleared to RCTP via Ocean2B V3 transition....

2) These conditional instructions (that you've stated) are safe due to them specifying specifically what to do and when; behind the landing traffic, behind the departing 7##

Where is the confusion?

[Oval3Holer]

Because too many pilots (and even controllers) use the term "cleared" when it is inappropriate and just wrong.

[Dan Winterland]

Now will the CAD investigate this correctly?!

No. because they will be investigating themselves. Clearly a conflict of interest!

[WingsAir]

Dude what is up with the ground controllers attitude!? IMO he's the one that messed up

good job on the HKA pilots though! Well done!

[Killaroo]

Simple solution - stop using J6 for crossing the active RWY.

[crwkunt roll]

I thought the tower had really big windows.

[GICASI2]

I thought the tower had really big windows.

Yes, but you have to look out of them! 😏

[Dan Winterland]

And one controller controlling the whole of the ground at the airport can't be looking everywhere at once.

[Airbubba]

The conditional clearances given for runway crossings/lineup are inviting disaster.

"Behind departing 7## cross runway XX"

Or

"Behind landing traffic line up and wait behind"

1) These aren't "conditional clearances"; they're instructions. Clearances are specified as such i.e. Cleared for take off, cleared to land, cleared to RCTP via Ocean2B V3 transition....

Izzat so? ;)


Description

A conditional clearance is a clearance issued by an air traffic controller which does not become effective until a specified condition has been satisfied.

Example of conditions that may be included in a conditional clearance include:

AFTER THE DEPARTING AIRCRAFT;
BEHIND THE LANDING AIRCRAFT;
BEHIND THE LUFTHANSA A340.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Conditional_Clearance

[corrigin]

Learnt something new.
I stand corrected - thanks AirBubba :ok:

[Icarus2001]

"Behind departing 7## cross runway XX"
Or
"Behind landing traffic line up and wait behind"

Hardly difficult to understand and comply with?

[cxorcist]

Hardly difficult to understand and comply with?

Nope, unless English isn't your native language and/or the controller's isn't either. Low viz could make the clearance confusing as well, especially if the clearance was issued at other than the opportune time. I've never been comfortable with these clearances.

[iceman50]

cxorcist

You think a clearance like that would be given in low vis!!!!:ugh:

[cxorcist]

cxorcist

You think a clearance like that would be given in low vis!!!!:ugh:

I've seen it given at night and when the HK pollution was pretty thick. Not LVO per se, but bad enough to start lining holes up in the cheese.

[sewerpiper]

Hey guys I am one of the volunteers locally that feed liveatc.net. We know all of this information above because of one of my servers at a friends home that feeds from Tung Chung was running. Who knows how hard ATC would have tried to cover this up otherwise.

We could use some help. I am moving back home in a few days, and need someone to take over from DB or South Lantau(TC is blocked from the hills) to feed the departure and approach frequencies. I had to shut mine down last week and pack it up to move and because of this we missed the exchange between polar and departure which would have been very interesting. If anyone is interested in continuing feeding the closed frequencies in these areas please contact me. The equipment is cheap (less than 100USD) and it helps the aviation community. You dont have to be a computer expert, the guy who owns liveatc can maintain it all, you just need to give it power and an internet connection, with a small antenna out a window.

[sewerpiper]

Can someone explain the odd Hong Kong ATCism, when a runway is closed at night the clearance to cross includes "cleared to cross the active runway 07/25/L/R? When the runway is open and operational it's just plain old "cleared to cross 07/25..."

Why?

Are you sure they are saying "active" or maybe they are trying to say in that weird accent "inactive". That is what I *think* I hear