Ryanair cancellations

[ShotOne]

While the Ryanair cancellations are a right shambles, it's at least refreshing to see a company own up to having messed up. What's caused it? Could such a situation really just be down to holidays; surely more like general shortage of flight crew?

[Langball]

The reason is quite simple : Pilot Shortage. As one Ryanair pilot told me recently "we've been tethering on the brink for ages, it was only a matter of time". He told me Norwegian had a recruitment event recently and 70 RYR pilots turned up. For the company to blame holiday rosters, and even mention "IAA requirements" I think is very disingenuous.

[Hotel Tango]

It will be interesting to see if their client base diminishes as a result of all this. But knowing RYR they will win them back with some rock bottom fares on offer when all is running again.

[45989]

Treat people like that, always comes home to roost eventually. Serves them right. Yet still attempt to blame all on other factors. Pathetic really.

[anotherthing]

it's at least refreshing to see a company own up to having messed up.they didn't own up straight away. Their first set of communications blamed a whole host of third parties. Only when questioned by said parties did the truth emerge. They were caught in a lie. That's the only reason they have come clean.

[Magplug]

History repeating itself yet again. Airline managers do not own up to making mistakes, it is a sign of weakness and career suicide to do so.

Pilots are a very expensive commodity in an business and yet they have the power in their day-to-day commercial decisions to keep the company in profitable business... or wipe a fortnight's profit off a route with one ill-considered diversion. Airline managers OTOH scrape and save costs in their departments just to try and make the 0.5% productivity gain that will get them their bonus this year. Consequently those managers have a fundamental dislike & jealousy of those who unwittingly wield much more commercial clout than they do.

We have seen it so many times.... Another ambitious manager who thinks he can run the programme with less pilots per airframe. He has some bright ideas about biasing the leave away from the summer so the busiest time is covered and the pilots are forced to take their leave later & later in the year. It will reach a crisis sooner or later..... hopefully not before he gets his productivity bonus and moves on elsewhere screw some other department/company up.

How long before the RYR lawyers are all over this thread ?

[JDee1977]

The reason is quite simple : Pilot Shortage. As one Ryanair pilot told me recently "we've been tethering on the brink for ages, it was only a matter of time". He told me Norwegian had a recruitment event recently and 70 RYR pilots turned up. For the company to blame holiday rosters, and even mention "IAA requirements" I think is very disingenuous.

I'm investigating Ryanair pilot turnover. If you could connect me with anyone, I'd be grateful. Thanks

[ExXB]

As R261 compensation does not apply to flights cancelled two weeks or more in advance, they are dodging a huge bullet. They are saving at least €100 million by doing this now.

And not doing anything more to actually help those affected by their incompetence.

[Whirlybird]

I've flown Ryanair quite a lot - basic and cheap flights, but did what they said on the tin. But not any more. First they seated me and my partner at opposite ends of an aircraft which wasn't full, and made us pay extra to change seats. Now this cancellation chaos...thankfully just after we got home from our Ryanair flight to Budapest. We definitely won't fly with them again, not even if they make the flights free! I listened to their so-called 'apology', and it made no sense. I think they may have shot themselves in the foot this time.

[groundbum]

flying passengers is considered a public service/utility and regulated as such. Just like the local pub has to run it's business responsibly perhaps the regulators should open conversations with Ryanair as to whether they are fit and proper to hold a licence..

If I'd been scheduled to travel, and cancelled with over 2 weeks notice so no EU compensation I would definitely be taking them to court since this was highly avoidable and I had a contract with the airline to travel

I read somewhere Ryanair has changed it's holiday year from March-April to October-September or somesuch, and it's this transition that's caused the upset.

[gearlever]

I read somewhere Ryanair has changed it's holiday year from March-April to October-September or somesuch, and it's this transition that's caused the upset.



Yep....

https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/

[ExDubai]

Same thread: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/599355-ryanair-cancelling-flights-13.html

[A0283]

Pity that earlier short threads on this subject were removed as they answered some of the questions posted above. And because, in general, this is an important subject for both pilots and LCC understanding.

In two posts i referred to the website of the BBC and stopped from making interpretations. So no need to worry about lawyer visitors you would think.

Ryanair has moved from general to staffing to pilot staffing explanations, all in the public domain. And said that 140 pilots moved to Norwegian. With Norwegian itself announcing more roadshows.
The cancellation document (thanks @exxb) is interesting too, as stated in the post above. No doubt someone will legally test this.

If you just follow pprune and like forums and talk and listen to pilots you might not be surprised about events. So very interesting to follow developments. Hope for at least some good links (thanks @gearlever).

Following a case like this improves the understanding of the business you are in.

[fox niner]

What is RYR babbling about? According to Ryanair, most of their pilots are self-employed professionals who are externally hired to fly their airplanes.
Don't be surprised therefore, when a number of self-employed pro's choose not to fly your planes. Get your own employees and treat them likewise.

What level of employee loyalty is Ryanair expecting from their pilots? Surely not the same as with a legacy carrier.

[skyloone]

FR apparently applying sticking plasters to problem. Offering bonuses and payments to give up leave etc, etc... and committing to staying until October 2018. Is that an admission next year is not looking good?

[akaSylvia]

The Daily Mash (parody news!) made me laugh out loud.

FLIGHT cancellations mean that thousands will be spared the ordeal of travelling with Ryanair, it has emerged.

With the budget airline cancelling hundreds of flights over the coming weeks, many customers have realised that at least they won’t have to endure the horrors for which they had braced themselves.

Ryanair customer Nikki Hollis said: “I won’t miss the feeling of being crammed in like a calf on some documentary about inhumane farming methods.

“I’m a bit disappointed my flight’s off, but I suppose it’s like buying a set of kitchen knives from a 99p shop. You can’t really be surprised when they don’t do what you’d hoped.”

Would-be passenger Tom Booker said: “On one hand I wanted a cheap holiday, on the other that fanfare thing Ryanair plays when the plane lands freaks me out.

“I mean, what sort of airline congratulates itself on a safe landing?”


Ryanair cancellations ?act of kindness in many ways? (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/ryanair-cancellations-an-act-of-kindness-in-many-ways-20170918135950)

[S.o.S.]

This is being handled in Terms & Endearment forum, http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/599355-ryanair-cancelling-flights.html and has 326 entries, so do follow if you wish.

There is also the main Ryanair thread in Airlines, Airports & Routes http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/496656-ryanair-9-a-215.html

PPRuNe does not allow multiple threads to continue for too long but, for now, this thread has some PAX information.

[Alsacienne]

As an FR regular (convenient route!) SLF, I find it morally incorrect that those who accept to fly for this bonus up to October 2017 will have to remain with the company until October 2018 to be paid it.

[Deltasierra010]

I knew Ryanair were tough employers, nothing wrong with that but I did not realise that pilots were self employed, just like Uber and Deliveroo workers.
That is a very vulnerable business model because Uber workers are unskilled and two a penny, whereas commercial pilots are highly skilled and highly regulated. Clearly serious mistakes have been made by management.

[biscuit74]

How long before the RYR lawyers are all over this thread ???

Is that why there is so little comment about Ryanair on PPRune? I had wondered. Plenty money for lawyers, not for crew. Hmm.

[ExXB]

Or perhaps no PPRuNe SFL would ever admit to flying with FR.

Note S.o.S's post above. Lots of discussion in the Terms & Endearment forum, http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/terms-endearme...g-flights.html

S.o.S - Thank you for not deleting this thread. There is a SLF aspect to this :mad:storm.

[Harry Wayfarers]

In one of my previous lives I worked in recruitment and one of our customer airlines was RYR and, with a previous background in Crew Scheduling, I picked up on RYR's situation … at that time.

Flight Crew can operate a maximum of 100 block hours in 28 days and a maximum of 900 block hours in 12 consecutive months, RYR may have a slight amendment to this but it's a maximum of 900 hours per year.

RYR work their pilots pretty much to the limit, I mean if they're going to the Canaries and back (8 hours) they can only work 12.5 days in 28, 4 sectors (6 hours) then 16.66 days in 28, on RYR's type of operation it's very easy to clock up 100 hours in 28 days.

But there are thirteen 28 day periods in 12 months and at 100 hours they can only work 9 of these periods so by the end of a summer a substantial amount of their pilots would be reaching their sell-by dates and needed to be sent on leave, put on light duties and/or grounded, we're at around that time of year now.

In my past recruitment another customer airline was Excel and rather than lay their contract pilots off of a winter we would place them with RYR for the winter months whilst RYR's own pilots were 'resting'.

I tend not to believe the excuse of a leave scheduling cock-up, RYR have been in business for a lot of years, they need to send these people on leave because they're burned out of hours, I've read of financial incentives (bribes) for pilots to work longer but hours in excess of the legal maximums cannot be bought.

[DaveReidUK]

That's a nice, succinct explanation of the situation Ryanair finds itself in (and it's a problem entirely of their own making).

The only thing I would add is that there have been suggestions that RYR has also been playing fast and loose with the "900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month. So, for example, a pilot could fly 500 hours in the last six months of the defined year and another 500 hours in the first six months of the next year, which would clearly be against both the letter and the spirit of the regulation.

[RAT 5]

The only thing I would add is that there have been suggestions that RYR has also been playing fast and loose with the "900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific month.

Ask the IAA. They should have all the facts.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Flight Crew can operate a maximum of 100 block hours in 28 days and a maximum of 900 block hours in 12 consecutive months, RYR may have a slight amendment to this but it's a maximum of 900 hours per year.There are also regulations regarding duty hours, not block hours, in seven, fourteen etc. days, I can't even recall which operator I was working for when we were allowed to decide which day of the week our seven days etc. period(s) would commence on allowing us to bust the 'within seven etc. days limits'.

As I posted above I also recall variations on the 900 block hours in 12 months, that operators could variate this to work to their advantage.

But all is as per the operator's Operation Manual which is approved by their regulating authority, in this case I presume the Irish CAA, not JAA.

If the rules are there to be abused then they shall surely be abused, it's not the fault of the operator, if anybody's fault then the fault of the regulting authority that approved any abuse.

[Airclues]

Ask the IAA. They should have all the facts

They might have the facts, IALPA certainly do.

https://ialpa.net/ialpa-analysis-of-ryanair-pilot-numbers-crisis/

[Capot]

"900 block hours in 12 consecutive months" limitation by claiming that it only applies to the year that starts in a specific monthIf they are doing that it astonishes me. "In 12 consecutive months" is totally clear and unambiguous; it means any 12 consecutive months.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Capot,

As I've twice already tried to suggest the regulatory authorities are allowing dispensations such as "Our 12 months shall be from January until December".

Don't scold the operator, scold the regulsatory authority.

[RAT 5]

It is caused by the terminology. If I understand it correctly there is a 'calendar year' limit AND a 12 month rolling limit, and they are different. WTF. WHY? How to make an easy job difficult. It can only have been because the airlines badgered EASA to allow some flexibility to their limits. Now for me a limit is a limit. It is not flexible and 2 limits can not apply to the same situation. But then EASA is born out of Brussels and therein lies the answer. FUDGE on behalf of the capitalists and greed merchants.

[PAXboy]

My cynical suggestion is that Brussels is not the main culprit but different airlines lobbying their reps for specific conditions to allow them to do what they have always done. That is - NOT to standardise!

[Harry Wayfarers]

There have been FTL dispensations around since, and before, I've been in the industry since the 70's, i.e. "Can we exceed the maximum FDP for this one particular series of flights if we give the crews extended pre-flight and post-flight rest periods" and the answers have invariably been "yes".

On the 900 hours in 12 consecutive months it is 100% legal to operate 900 hours in circa 8.5 months, which is likely to be more tiring, 900 hours in 8.5 months or 1,000 hours spread over a calendar year?

In a previous life I became tasked with writing my operator's FTL scheme, it was most one of the difficult challenges I've faced, particularly trying to do it in what otherwise spare moments I had, trying to think of every scenario, "What if this?", "What if that?" etc., we can all mock any particular rule or set of rules but try writing an FTL scheme for yourself and appreciate just how challenging it can be!

[S.o.S.]

Thank you Harry Wayfarers. Most interesting and helpful.

[ExXB]

FTL ? Faster Than Light?

(Just kidding)

[blind pew]

Had my flight to nice cancelled two weeks ago whilst there was the normal cgt protest the airfield was operating normally as did most flights ..ryanair has refused compensation!

[Piltdown Man]

It's certainly now the pilot's fault. Too few of these greedy people refused their company's overly generous offer to work just one week of their annual leave. So for the benefit and convenience of Ryanair's passengers, and additional 400,000 people have now had their bookings cancelled between November and March 2018. But RYR has seen them right, they will all now receive a marvellous €40 travel voucher each valid between October 2017 and March 2018. So that will be alright them. Greedy pilots!

[PAXboy]

Thanks for telling us the truth Piltdown Man about these awful people who pretend to fly us safely ... :rolleyes:

[Whirlybird]

More flight cancellations, and routes being suspended too. 400,000 more passengers to be hit by Ryanair cancellations - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41414414)

[Harry Wayfarers]

Ryanair will cancel another 18,000 flights between November and March, affecting the travel plans of another 400,000 passengers.

So they've got 222 passengers booked on every B737-800 flight they're cancelling?

[vikingivesterled]

How does the comments that Ryanair pilots are reaching their 900 legal annual max, combine with other comments on pprune that they didn't like the bonus offer because they had checked their logbooks and found they wheren't reaching that offer's 800 annual minimum.

[DaveReidUK]

400'000 ÷ 18'000 = 22 an a bit....

Perhaps one needs to be of the generation that grew up using a slide rule, to be sure of getting the decimal point in the right place. :O

[Chesty Morgan]

Not the best load factor...

Closer to 3.4 million passengers assuming most flights are full.

[PAXboy]

CAA have woken up
Ryanair threatened with legal action by UK regulator - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41422571)