So why are the Austrians ditching Typhoon?

[Jackonicko]

Austria’s deliberately down-graded Eurofighters are to be retired prematurely, amid criticism of missing capabilities:

On 7 July 2017 Austria’s Social Democrat Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil announced that the Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian air force) would end operations of its fleet of 15 single-seat Tranche-1/Block-5/2R Eurofighters prematurely, some time between 2020-2023.

The Minister was quoted as saying that: “It was necessary to halt the overflowing costs of a Eurofighter which does not have the full capabilities needed for our sovereign air-surveillance. Subsequently we today announce that the Eurofighter in Austrian service is history!”

At the same press conference, Brigadier Karl Gruber, the commander of the Austrian air force melodramatically said that: “I want to be assured that my pilots are not sentenced to death, when in the future (they) may be meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers...”

The impression given was that the Eurofighter was too expensive, and was inherently lacking in capability, and that the Tranche 1 version used by Austria was effectively obsolescent and might be difficult to support. The official Austrian Bundeswehr (armed forces) website described the Tranche 1 aircraft as having “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty.”
Brigadier Gruber pointed out that the Tranche 1 version of the aircraft was only operated by the core member countries of the Eurofighter consortium — the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain – and that since those countries had “developed different concepts for the future,” he said. “it appears likely that there will be no uniform Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 1 system in the future.”

This is extremely misleading, since the Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon remains one of the most capable and most effective air defence aircraft in service today, while with proper support arrangements, other operators are finding costs to be reasonable. Moreover, the UK RAF has recently delivered a real boost in the Tranche 1 aircraft’s long term future by committing to retain it in service until 2035, thereby ensuring that the type will be fully supported for at least another 18 years.

Furthermore any lack of capability in Austria’s Tranche 1 Eurofighter aircraft is very much restricted to the specific Austrian configuration, and is the direct result of ‘unique-to-Austria’ procurement decisions, which saw the Alpine nation order a version of the aircraft which quite deliberately lacked a number of key items of equipment, in a short-sighted attempt to shave cost from the programme.

More at:

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/759527507586743

[pr00ne]

Cos they have almost no qualified folk to fly them?

[SARF]

Brexit., or Boris

[Wrathmonk]

Brexit., or Boris

Don't forget Margaret Thatcher in that list as well ;)

[Davef68]

For the same reason Canada chose the S92 for their maritime helicopter and not the Merlin. Politics.

[dead_pan]

A victory for Austria's fake news outlets...

What do they plan to replace them with - F35s? :/

[DANbudgieman]

[QUOTE What do they plan to replace them with - F35s? :/[/QUOTE]

Anyone got a few spare Drakens going cheap?

[PDR1]

Drakens don't go "cheap" - mostly they go "slurp, guggle, slurp" before quietly burping and then whistling on the glide...

PDR

[PDR1]

AFAICS if the Austrians want to recover the capabilities they pruned out of the spec of their Typhoons their most cost-effective option would be to simply have a mid-life-upgrade to bring these aeroplanes up to the UK or German Tranche-1 spec. Replacing them with a new type has got to be the more expensive option.

But this is a classical example of the old adage about "Every pound you decide not to spend on initial procurement will cost you at least £10 over the service life..."

PDR

[Davef68]

A victory for Austria's fake news outlets...

What do they plan to replace them with - F35s? :/

Most likely Gripens

[Buster Hyman]

I wonder how many read the thread title & thought; "But don't they fly Hornets?"

[Doors Off]

The Australians never bought Typhoon, definitely fake news! 😉

[Willard Whyte]

Most likely Gripens

Indeed, so it would seem.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-eurofighter/austria-plans-to-end-eurofighter-program-early-amid-row-with-airbus-idUSKBN19S0ZN

[chopper2004]

Austria’s deliberately down-graded Eurofighters are to be retired prematurely, amid criticism of missing capabilities:


On 7 July 2017 Austria’s Social Democrat Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil announced that the Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian air force) would end operations of its fleet of 15 single-seat Tranche-1/Block-5/2R Eurofighters prematurely, some time between 2020-2023.

The Minister was quoted as saying that: “It was necessary to halt the overflowing costs of a Eurofighter which does not have the full capabilities needed for our sovereign air-surveillance. Subsequently we today announce that the Eurofighter in Austrian service is history!”

At the same press conference, Brigadier Karl Gruber, the commander of the Austrian air force melodramatically said that: “I want to be assured that my pilots are not sentenced to death, when in the future (they) may be meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers...”

The impression given was that the Eurofighter was too expensive, and was inherently lacking in capability, and that the Tranche 1 version used by Austria was effectively obsolescent and might be difficult to support. The official Austrian Bundeswehr (armed forces) website described the Tranche 1 aircraft as having “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty.”
Brigadier Gruber pointed out that the Tranche 1 version of the aircraft was only operated by the core member countries of the Eurofighter consortium — the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain – and that since those countries had “developed different concepts for the future,” he said. “it appears likely that there will be no uniform Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 1 system in the future.”

This is extremely misleading, since the Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon remains one of the most capable and most effective air defence aircraft in service today, while with proper support arrangements, other operators are finding costs to be reasonable. Moreover, the UK RAF has recently delivered a real boost in the Tranche 1 aircraft’s long term future by committing to retain it in service until 2035, thereby ensuring that the type will be fully supported for at least another 18 years.

Furthermore any lack of capability in Austria’s Tranche 1 Eurofighter aircraft is very much restricted to the specific Austrian configuration, and is the direct result of ‘unique-to-Austria’ procurement decisions, which saw the Alpine nation order a version of the aircraft which quite deliberately lacked a number of key items of equipment, in a short-sighted attempt to shave cost from the programme.

More at:

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/759527507586743

It is a little more than cost, it is an ongoing rift with Airbus Group since the beginning of the year where they ar being accused of corruption :mad::mad::mad:

Austria sues Airbus over alleged Eurofighter corruption | Business | DW | 16.02.2017 (http://www.dw.com/en/austria-sues-airbus-over-alleged-eurofighter-corruption/a-37579081)

which in turn is consequently affecting them bidding for the Bundesheer's need for a multi role helicopter.

Austria?s rift with Airbus hampers helicopter acquisition | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/73357/austria-s-rift-with-airbus-hampers-helicopter-acquisition)

Interesting L-M are in the mix apart from Saab.....

Btw how many of Conningsby's finest were involved in training up the first batch of Tiffy pilots and maintenance crews over here in Austria?

Ive laughingly only seen one of their Tiffy's fly at low level as I was ona train heading to Salzburg from the east...

cheers

[gr4techie]

No mention of the cost of maintenance hours per flying hour. Which could be the deciding factor. Are old tranche 1's less reliable than more modern tranche 2's with upgraded avionics and teething troubles ironed out?
Then there's the cost of maintenance and support versus other aircraft types, are Gripen, Rafale and maybe F16 cheaper to operate over their in-service life?

[Jackonicko]

With a tiny fleet I'd be surprised if buying a replacement (and all the associated infrastructure, support and training) would work out cheaper that the €80 m per year that the (fully bought and paid for) Typhoons cost them to operate.

Nor am I convinced that a Gripen would provide sufficient overmatch for the good Brigadier's scenario of "meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers…”

[Davef68]

Ive laughingly only seen one of their Tiffy's fly at low level as I was ona train heading to Salzburg from the east...


They had two at the Leuchars Air Show a few years back, along with one of their C130Ks

[Mil-26Man]

Nor am I convinced that a Gripen would provide sufficient overmatch for the good Brigadier's scenario of "meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers…”

If the Su-27 was defecting, why would you need 'overmatch'? Asking for a friend.

Also, odd that a presumably Russian defecting Su-27 would fly all the way to Austria before landing.

[chopper2004]

Austria’s deliberately down-graded Eurofighters are to be retired prematurely, amid criticism of missing capabilities:

On 7 July 2017 Austria’s Social Democrat Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil announced that the Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian air force) would end operations of its fleet of 15 single-seat Tranche-1/Block-5/2R Eurofighters prematurely, some time between 2020-2023.

The Minister was quoted as saying that: “It was necessary to halt the overflowing costs of a Eurofighter which does not have the full capabilities needed for our sovereign air-surveillance. Subsequently we today announce that the Eurofighter in Austrian service is history!”

At the same press conference, Brigadier Karl Gruber, the commander of the Austrian air force melodramatically said that: “I want to be assured that my pilots are not sentenced to death, when in the future (they) may be meeting a defecting, renegade Su-27 and its pursuers...”

The impression given was that the Eurofighter was too expensive, and was inherently lacking in capability, and that the Tranche 1 version used by Austria was effectively obsolescent and might be difficult to support. The official Austrian Bundeswehr (armed forces) website described the Tranche 1 aircraft as having “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty.”
Brigadier Gruber pointed out that the Tranche 1 version of the aircraft was only operated by the core member countries of the Eurofighter consortium — the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain – and that since those countries had “developed different concepts for the future,” he said. “it appears likely that there will be no uniform Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 1 system in the future.”

This is extremely misleading, since the Tranche 1 Eurofighter Typhoon remains one of the most capable and most effective air defence aircraft in service today, while with proper support arrangements, other operators are finding costs to be reasonable. Moreover, the UK RAF has recently delivered a real boost in the Tranche 1 aircraft’s long term future by committing to retain it in service until 2035, thereby ensuring that the type will be fully supported for at least another 18 years.

Furthermore any lack of capability in Austria’s Tranche 1 Eurofighter aircraft is very much restricted to the specific Austrian configuration, and is the direct result of ‘unique-to-Austria’ procurement decisions, which saw the Alpine nation order a version of the aircraft which quite deliberately lacked a number of key items of equipment, in a short-sighted attempt to shave cost from the programme.

More at:

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/759527507586743

On Sunday night Kurz won the internal legislative elections thus tipped to be the next chancellor albeit the youngest leader around ...

He’s also doing the coalition with the far right ....

I wonder if /when he gets in what his plans re the Tiffy future will be. Put it this way national security and defence are high on the list.

Cheers

[T28B]

The official Austrian Bundeswehr (armed forces) website described the Tranche 1 aircraft as having “limited equipment and significant cost uncertainty.” They seem to have been well ahead of the early block F-35's with this procurement strategy. :E Perhaps this is the new paradigm for fast jet procurement, and people don't appreciate a trend setter when they see one.

Hat, coat, exit, and don't forget to tip your waitress. :}


On a more serious note: when the total buy number for a fast jet is small, and the budget is modest, any MoD is left with some very hard choices and funding profiles that may not always work out in the long term. It appears that the Austrian MoD and their Air Force have found themselves between a rock and a hard place.

[Wander00]

T28B -given the Austrian terrain, your last phrase is (IMHO) a peach!

[orca]

Would it be possible to query whether other operators are actually happy with Typhoon sustainment costs?

How about costs and timescales of updates?

I only ask because I’ve heard them described as ‘horrendous’. Not by anyone who would know - just Air Cap and DE&S folk.

I agree the Tranche 1 is one of the most capable Control of the Air platforms around - easily within the top 20 or so.

[PDR1]

If the Su-27 was defecting, why would you need 'overmatch'? Asking for a friend.


Presumably because some of his/her former colleagues might be chasing in non-defecting Su27s?


Also, odd that a presumably Russian defecting Su-27 would fly all the way to Austria before landing.

Maybe the pilot has a craving for sachetorte, coffee and a bag of Mozart's Balls...

PDR

[Heathrow Harry]

Opera dear boy, opera ...........

[Coochycool]

Why don't they just spread the risk and liability by sharing Q with a friendly neighbour?

Much as I believe several other European nations already do.

Germany being the obvious partner. :hmm:

[k3k3]

Austria is bound by treaty to be neutral. The Soviets insisted that Austria agree to permanent neutrality as part of the Austrian State Treaty before they would consider leaving the country. Austria was under control and occupation by the four victorious powers until 1955.

[GlobalNav]

To whom is Austria legally bound by that treaty, now that the Soviet Union no longer exists?

[TEEEJ]

To whom is Austria legally bound by that treaty, now that the Soviet Union no longer exists?

Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia urged Austria to agree to a new accord on neutrality. But Austria declined. Russian Foreign Minister Yevgeni Primakov, on a visit to Vienna in 1996, said Russia would not like to see Austria join NATO. But Primakov said at the time neutrality was "Austria's own choice."

https://www.rferl.org/a/1095695.html

[ORAC]

Austria confirms Indonesia wants to buy its Eurofighters ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/07/20/austria-confirms-indonesia-wants-to-buy-its-eurofighters/#more-83225)

Austria confirms Indonesia wants to buy its Eurofighters

[msbbarratt]

Would it be possible to query whether other operators are actually happy with Typhoon sustainment costs?

How about costs and timescales of updates?

I only ask because I’ve heard them described as ‘horrendous’. Not by anyone who would know - just Air Cap and DE&S folk.

I agree the Tranche 1 is one of the most capable Control of the Air platforms around - easily within the top 20 or so.

Just counting: ah, maybe. I was wondering if the "top 20" might reach back as far as the Spitfire...

Whilst not being aware of the specifics of contracts between DE&S and parts suppliers, I wouldn't mind betting (apologies if this is wrong) that it's lots of little contracts rather than long term, large ones. Short term contracts are ferociously expensive because no business can afford to price one up on the assumption that it'll lead to another contract afterwards. What you're in effect buying is the company's commitment to hold off looking for long term, profitable work on other contracts for a year or so. Companies have to deal with lost opportunity costs, and that gets passed on.

If long term contracts are issued with terms setting out periodic reviews, then that gives businesses an incentive to put in a long term competitive price.

[Willard Whyte]

And yet no firm sign of a replacement. According to the internet anyway!

[Ripton]

And yet no firm sign of a replacement. According to the internet anyway!

Perhaps by advertising that they will be unable to chase defecting SU-27s they hope to gain a fleet of free issue SU-27s.

[etudiant]

Wonder whether they would work for Ireland?

[GeeRam]

And yet no firm sign of a replacement. According to the internet anyway!

I'm still amazed that they didn't buy Gripen's, to replace their Draken's, given that they've had an almost continuous relationship with Saab since the inception of the post-war Austrian Airforce in 1955, first with a buy of refurbed J29's, then the Saab 105 buy, and then the refurbed Draken's.

[chopper2004]

Only fortnight ago, Viemna decided to keep Typhoon Force, retire the Saab 105 with the intent of outsourcing FJ flying Training abroad...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/austria-to-retain-eurofighters-retire-saab-105s

Even though I live over there 1/3 of the year finally made it to Zeltweg so pleasure of seeing their Tiffy display last year (my photos below).


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/0bbdacf0_b7cd_4e8f_b2b9_0714802e99c8_3d920f8f8150480163b39ad a8e1f8742fa0bb6f5.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/97f36f60_6a0a_4c05_809a_5af7cbf82a35_6331517300753d4df7f33f0 a4fee0271056d6674.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/c7e9af57_79dd_4470_acc7_25f86a6eeca1_7f3613f3c5749b4a1d8b1a0 61a339a0ba7eaef3e.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/19ef8d9f_b887_4da1_a6f0_f0cfd30f1d99_5e850b494e501348e94f679 824724bb938ba5bd0.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/d95897ee_dac5_4e0d_baa6_d819178bfafc_34afced633dba439242ee36 cdf67b4ab24c0c402.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/d482c762_5ab5_46e3_8535_d6d4b4109307_20da7278d5d973e8dff58af e821f9aa327a348b5.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/470bced8_2b46_4525_9acb_ababe0c9c59e_9931666732edb80fc41cb29 7e6d7b5017b2df24e.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/956a62e5_a356_4940_856b_507443b7c73e_22e9e005fb98f42af1fb4b0 301cab46b9f39963c.jpeg

and my photos of their Saab 105 performing too back in September

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/76f3f333_961d_4cbb_a3c8_020b1df576d2_f44387e0e5e8771b4bcf8ce 810e3482c35f46f39.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/f3fc1fef_0687_40e7_9958_036e52259dc1_317ab6c4ca7a9f2c7464c08 55b83e25a51584837.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/c10271b4_e1ab_4294_97ba_34f568810c70_e03fd9a458ff53690d33350 fdcc8a521d0482f5e.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/e412ab4f_9645_4a2c_bec3_d0a10e9f8196_477aef5bdc49baae0852a8e 9c1dea1a53f2829c3.jpeg






And withheld Indonesians offering to buy them off ...begs a lot of questions .

Also what’s with Indonesian F-16 Block 32 and Sukhoi SU-30 Fleet??

cheers

[chopper2004]

Couple of slight drifts here ...at mo there’s the light utility helicopter replacement for the Legacy Alouettes and Kiowa in the Bundesheer fleet. Airbus, Bell and Leonardo are contenders. However Airbus felt that they were not getting the whole bid info but fed scraps / pushed aside, wondering if the government wanting revenge for the Typhoon issues at the beginning.

Also on a Humorous note if the Typhoons entered service few years earlier ..wonder if they able to engage Holloman‘s finest

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35025/the-time-when-the-usaf-got-caught-trying-to-sneak-f-117s-through-austrian-airspace

cheers

[TBM-Legend]

Austria confirms Indonesia wants to buy its Eurofighters ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/07/20/austria-confirms-indonesia-wants-to-buy-its-eurofighters/#more-83225)

Austria confirms Indonesia wants to buy its Eurofighters



Just what Indonesia needs, another type from yet another supplier base.

[chopper2004]

Just what Indonesia needs, another type from yet another supplier base.

Is the Russian supply chain crap ....with the Su27/30 or US with the F-16?

https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/indonesia/airforce

Or is it the Indonesians reckon the Typhoon is better than SU-27/30.

cheers

[Hot 'n' High]

................. Whilst not being aware of the specifics of contracts between DE&S and parts suppliers, I wouldn't mind betting (apologies if this is wrong) that it's lots of little contracts rather than long term, large ones. .........

Hi msbbarratt, FWIW, as part of the attempted support transformation in the UK MoD Air Sector over the past 15 years or so, Typhoon comes under TyTAN https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/supporting-the-uk-typhoon-fleet . Others were/are SKIOS (Sea King), IMOS (Merlin), ATTAC (Tornado) and Apache IOS (for, erm, Apache!). Not sure about the other Fleets as these are the ones I have had direct dealings with over the years. It should be noted that TyTAN is aimed at saving support costs with a view to ploughing those savings back into capability enhancements for the UK jets. So TyTAN is more about shifting existing sums of money (present/planned) from one pot to another but the overall result is the same - support costs down, except that, here, Industry hopes for no net loss of income, just that the income streams they receive from the MoD (Support vs Capability enhancements) shift from the former into the latter. A simplified description of course!!! :ok:

Has the Integrated Operational Support (IOS) model, launched by SKIOS in the mid-2000's, been a success in driving down through life support costs and providing improved availability? I've not seen the sums so I'll leave that to others to comment on. What has not changed are the problems/issues the Primes have with either their suppliers (generally solved by passing cost and risk on to them I suspect) or the bigger issues which surround multi-national programmes such as Typhoon which bring their own international management/development priorities/issues which, of course = extra cost/time. Then there's continually changing "Defence Requirements" - a subject with it's own Thread on PPRuNe! Again, a simplified overview of the issues!

Re Austria, with such a small fleet, it's hard to make your voice heard over the calls on Industry resources made by bigger customers - and that's before there are any political games within Austria itself.

Out that game now so others will know more. Cheers, H 'n' H

[golfbananajam]

Maybe the pilot has a craving for sachetorte, coffee and a bag of Mozart's Balls...
PDR

And who would blame them, though I guess they could also be on the hunt for Salzburger Nockerl.

[Lyneham Lad]

And who would blame them, though I guess they could also be on the hunt for Salzburger Nockerl.

I would settle for a glass or three of Trumer Pils. Hic...

[ORAC]

Austria will enter negotiations with Indonesia for the sale of 15 Eurofighters ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/09/07/austria-will-enter-negotiations-with-indonesia-for-the-sale-of-15-eurofighters/)

Austria will enter negotiations with Indonesia for the sale of 15 Eurofighters

Austria’s Defense Minister Klaudia Tanner has officially responded to Indonesia’s request to buy 15 Eurofighters from her country.

Tanner said she had directed the General Staff to prepare for negotiations with Jakarta. She said the “exit from the Eurofighter system” is the declared goal and the sale is in the best interest of taxpayers.

Two options are available for the sale to proceed. First, the Eurofighter consortium will have to issue a end user certificate to Indonesia and Austria will sell the jets directly to Indonesia. Alternatively, Airbus will buy back the planes, upgrade them and sell them to the South East Asian nation instead.....

[Finningley Boy]

The piccies of the Austrian jets with their very fine "Fin Art" are very good, weather looks not too good, flat shows I imagine, especially with the ground going up very high!

FB

[chopper2004]

The piccies of the Austrian jets with their very fine "Fin Art" are very good, weather looks not too good, flat shows I imagine, especially with the ground going up very high!

FB

Thanks, it was atrocious weather on the saturday show but as the Friday preparations was stunning blue sky and hot as hell.

Anyway begs the question will the Bundesheer purchase the Gripen or F-16? Then again anything could happen in the next 2 years.

Maybe Jakarta and Vienna Exchange jets...F-16 for Typhoon.

cheers

[etudiant]

Can a Eurofighter even perform within the limits of Austrian airspace? I'd think it would be well over the border during any high speed maneuvers.
Was there any plausible military rationale for this acquisition or was it purely a political purchase?

[typerated]

Can a Eurofighter even perform within the limits of Austrian airspace? I'd think it would be well over the border during any high speed maneuvers.
?

Just out of interest how big do you think Austria is?

[etudiant]

Just out of interest how big do you think Austria is?

Had to google it, bigger than I thought, about twice the size of Switzerland. Still pretty small for anything supersonic.

[Valiantone]

I fear a geography lesson maybe required....

[etudiant]

I fear a geography lesson maybe required....

Why? To reassure us that Austria borders only on peaceful countries? At 400 kts, the long axis of the country takes less than an hour, half that going north south.
I do not see the military role in the current environment for Typhoon, it seems more appropriate for the cold war era, when anything coming from the east could be deemed hostile.
So imho Austria did great to find a (sucker) buyer for their expensive jets.

[GeeRam]

Why? To reassure us that Austria borders only on peaceful countries? At 400 kts, the long axis of the country takes less than an hour, half that going north south.
I do not see the military role in the current environment for Typhoon, it seems more appropriate for the cold war era, when anything coming from the east could be deemed hostile.
So imho Austria did great to find a (sucker) buyer for their expensive jets.

Hmmmmmmmm............ :uhoh:

[typerated]

Had to google it, bigger than I thought, about twice the size of Switzerland. Still pretty small for anything supersonic.


So there is more than Geography that you might need to get a handle on!

[Less Hair]

The Austrians claim to have no money for any jet fighters but still want some and need to finally phase out their old SAAB 105s. So why not buy second hand F-16 from anyone of those F-35 customers? Or early built Gripen from Sweden? There IS stuff available for cheap. Just look at commercial target display companies. From Skyhawks to Mirages you can make old fighters work hard today.
What they seem to mainly need is some fast patrol and visual inspection plane only it seems. No A-G. Their Eurofighters had only VERY limited armament.
Austria is not poor so I don't get what takes them so long?

[GeeRam]

The Austrians claim to have no money for any jet fighters but still want some and need to finally phase out their old SAAB 105s. So why not buy second hand F-16 from anyone of those F-35 customers? Or early built Gripen from Sweden? There IS stuff available for cheap. Just look at commercial target display companies. From Skyhawks to Mirages you can make old fighters work hard today.
What they seem to mainly need is some fast patrol and visual inspection plane only it seems. No A-G. Their Eurofighters had only VERY limited armament.
Austria is not poor so I don't get what takes them so long?

Their constitution seems to make things hard for themselves, although I'm curious to know what Saab did after all these years to piss them off that they chucked out the Gripen option so quickly, given that up until they bought those Eurofighters, Austria has pretty much only bought Saab's since their first post WW2 fighter buy of refurbed J-29's from Sweden in the early 60's, and then the 105's which are still soldering on, but their lack of suitability for defending their airspace led to the late 80's buy of the Saab Draken's, which were replaced by the Eurofighters.
Or there was some 'interesting politics' going on behind the scenes, that froze the Swedes out.

[Finningley Boy]

I can't remember where, but I seem to have a snippet in my head about the RAF lobbying Wallace & Cummings (or whoever it is) for an additional two Typhoon Squadrons? Were it so, then a buy of the 15 the Austrians have would help remedy this aspiration, at least to the tune of a single squadron!? Further, the Austrians, as has been suggested, could have a chat with the Belgians, Dutch, Danes and Norwegians about picking their pick of the soon to be surfeit of F-16s.

FB

[Less Hair]

Those are tranche 1 early ones and of no use to the RAF. Different data bus and capabilities.

[typerated]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50198464617_42613f4b71_b.jpg

Typhoon has a very bad name in Austria for bribery during the buy and cost to keep flying.
Gripen would have been a much better choice with their neighbours

[Steve Bond]

Very wide of the mark Etudiant
.

[etudiant]

Very wide of the mark Etudiant
.

Perhaps so, please enlighten me as to why.

[chopper2004]

Since Bundesheer has selected the AW169M , wonder if any bearing on the Typhoon situ. Strangely enough, with the original purchase of Typhoon , Leoanrdo or then Aeritalia (?) was not mentioned....

https://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=10583

cheers