Qatar sign up for 24 Typhoons

[ORAC]

Defence Secretary strengthens UK-Qatar Defence relationship (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-secretary-strengthens-uk-qatar-defence-relationship)

During a visit to the Gulf state today, Sir Michael Fallon and his Qatari counterpart, Khalid bin Mohammed al Attiyah, signed a Statement of Intent concerning Qatar’s proposed purchase of 24 Typhoon aircraft........

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon said:

After a number of years of negotiations between our two countries, I am delighted to have been able to sign today with Qatar’s Defence Minister, this Statement of Intent on the purchase of 24 Typhoon aircraft by Qatar.

This will be the first major defence contract with Qatar, one of the UK’s strategic partners. This is an important moment in our defence relationship and the basis for even closer defence co-operation between our two countries. We also hope that this will help enhance security within the region across all Gulf allies and enhance Typhoon interoperability across the GCC.

The security of the GCC, of all Gulf countries, is critical to the UK’s own security.....

[seafury45]

Isn't only a few weeks ago that Qatar was labelled "terrorist", at least by other Arab states. How will this deal affect the UK's dealings with those countries?

[Tashengurt]

Yup, surprised BAe would risk upsetting the Saudi cash cow.

[Heathrow Harry]

We need the money...................

[Fareastdriver]

The Saudis aren't going to risk their credit line at the Playboy Club.

[pr00ne]

USA signed an arms deal worth billions with them the other month, do they need the money?

[drustsonoferp]

It means the Typhoon production line stays open longer: we need to keep hold of manufacturing expertise. Good news.

[Davef68]

Curious buying Typhoons after also buying Rafales and F15s

[ORAC]

they're not buying aircraft, they're buying friends and insurance policies.....

[Heathrow Harry]

"USA signed an arms deal worth billions with them the other month, do they need the money?"

yes TBH -every arms industry is desperate for sales right now...............

in fact if you are talking to the likes of India you are beyond desperate.................

[Cazalet33]

They're not [buying] aircraft, they're buying friends and insurance policies.

A very shrewd observation, Mr O.

[airpolice]

They're not buying anything yet, just stating an intent to do so in the future.

How firm is that deal, compared to the situation where the UK agreed to buy carriers, that were (almost) as expensive to cancel, as they were to purchase?

If Qatar fails to buy the 24 Typhoons, how much will they pay in penalty costs?

[ORAC]

The cover doesn't start till the premium is paid...

[Jackonicko]

Curious buying Typhoons after also buying Rafales and F15s

Hardly - Qatar made it clear that they needed 72 new fighters to replace their 12 Mirage 2000s, and that they hoped to get three different types from three different suppliers.

[Jackonicko]

they're not buying aircraft, they're buying friends and insurance policies.....

And training opportunities, doctrine, exchange officers, etc.

[Bing]

Qatar made it clear that they needed 72 new fighters to replace their 12 Mirage 2000s

Jesus, how good was the Mirage 2000!?

[ORAC]

How good was the Iranian air force after its years of war with Iraq?

[Chillimausl]

I can recall 24 to 36 aircraft stated by Qatar back in 2011. Not sure when and why it went to 72. And what does it tell us that it was Rafale first? Personally, I think this surprised nearly everyone.

[PDR1]

Yup, surprised BAe would risk upsetting the Saudi cash cow.


Who is BAe and what do they have to do with the Typhoon??

PDR

[FLCH]

"USA signed an arms deal worth billions with them the other month, do they need the money?"

yes TBH -every arms industry is desperate for sales right now...............

in fact if you are talking to the likes of India you are beyond desperate.................

Nothing like dealing with bloddy w*gs eh Harry ?

[Davef68]

Hardly - Qatar made it clear that they needed 72 new fighters to replace their 12 Mirage 2000s, and that they hoped to get three different types from three different suppliers.


Didn't know if the numbers of F15s ordered have been revealed, but the FMS request was for up to 72 - I'd assumed they were going for 24 Rafales and 48 F15s.

Bit like the Saudis in the 80/90ss, buying F15s and Tornados. If one supplier objects politically to your use of aircraft, just use the ones from another supplier.

[Jackonicko]

Who is BAe and what do they have to do with the Typhoon??

PDR

Industrial/commercial Lead on the Qatar Typhoon campaign, and prime contractor on the Saudi Typhoon programme - which was a Government to Government deal. This was a BAE campaign, not an EF GmbH campaign.

[Jackonicko]

Typhoon deal strengthens UK-Qatar Defence relationship

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/759920344214126

Major news sources judge Qatari Typhoon deal surprising – Aerospace Analysis & Insight was expecting it all along!

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/posts/759722900900537

[Jackonicko]

Didn't know if the numbers of F15s ordered have been revealed, but the FMS request was for up to 72 - I'd assumed they were going for 24 Rafales and 48 F15s.

Bit like the Saudis in the 80/90ss, buying F15s and Tornados. If one supplier objects politically to your use of aircraft, just use the ones from another supplier.

24 Rafales plus 12 options
36 F-15QAs plus 36 options - this was the big surprise - as it wasn't 24 again
24 Typhoons plus undisclosed options

That's 84 aircraft, when the total requirement was originally 72. Maybe they think they need 7 Squadrons, not just six?

[melmothtw]

Major news sources judge Qatari Typhoon deal surprising – Aerospace Analysis & Insight was expecting it all along!

I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types, and neither is there any industrial value for Qatar.

Being Middle East focused Jackonicko, I guess you have a better insight into the vagaries of their thinking.

[Saintsman]

I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types

Mind you, they will be able to tell us which one is actually best.

[Jackonicko]

I guess it is surprising as there is absolutely no operational value in fielding three almost identical (at least in terms of role) fighter types, and neither is there any industrial value for Qatar.

Being Middle East focused Jackonicko, I guess you have a better insight into the vagaries of their thinking.

Qatar's industrial capabilities are very limited, but three lots of offsets/participation, etc. will be better than one.

Three different centres of decision making if Qatar does anything to provoke sanctions.

Three lots of goodwill, invitations for exercise participation and training courses.

And there are some subtle but important capability differences between the three aircraft - Rafale with its heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod. F-15QA with a great payload/range capability. Typhoon may bring with it some Mission Data capabilities for the QEAF, as well as Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow.

[melmothtw]

Qatar's industrial capabilities are very limited, but three lots of offsets/participation, etc. will be better than one.

Three different centres of decision making if Qatar does anything to provoke sanctions.

Then why stop at three? Why not order some Sukhois/MiGs and get the Russians onside also?

Three lots of goodwill, invitations for exercise participation and training courses.

You don't need to buy a new fighter type to get goodwill and training opportunities. Countries train with other countries because it is in their strategic interests to do so, and the US/UK/France will train with Qatar so long as it is in their interests to do so. Israel doesn't get invited to Red Flag because it flies Falcons and Eagles.

If goodwill and training opportunities are the objective (and, as you say, Qatar needs to buy another country's kit to get these), then surely buy something that makes operational sense - like a frigate or some tanks. Why buy a third and superfluous fighter type?

And there are some subtle but important capability differences between the three aircraft - Rafale with its heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod. F-15QA with a great payload/range capability. Typhoon may bring with it some Mission Data capabilities for the QEAF, as well as Meteor, Brimstone and Storm Shadow.

Each of these aircraft have essentially the same roles and the same capabilities, albeit with some minor differences as to what weapons types they currently carry. If a country wants a particular weapons capability, then it makes more sense to pay for the OEM to integrate it onto an aircraft they already have or have selected, rather than to go out and buy an entirely new type again.

That said, under current planning the Typhoon is to get the same heavy precision stand off weapons capability and recce pod capability as the Rafale now has, so again why buy them both? And what does Qatar need with the F-15QA's increased range (and if range is important, they have MRTTs to extend the range of the Rafale or Typhoon).

And the argument that money is no object to Qatar doesn't really hold either, as they could use that money to pay for the weapons integration rather than buy an unnecessary third fighter type.

There is nothing logical about Qatar's decision to field three fighter types.

[Jackonicko]

Their perception is that the marginal extra cost is outweighed by the advantages.

That's logical.

To them.

And it was logical to Saudi when they bought F-15SA and Typhoon….. and Kuwait when they opted for Super Hornet and Typhoon. And arguably to Oman, too…..

[melmothtw]

And it was logical to Saudi when they bought F-15SA and Typhoon…..

But not F-15SA and Typhoon and Rafale.

and Kuwait when they opted for Super Hornet and Typhoon

But not Super Hornet and Typhoon and Rafale.

And arguably to Oman, too…..

But not Typhoon and F-16 and Rafale/Eagle/Super Hornet

There is a reason all of these countries you cite have not procured three overlapping fighter types - it makes no sense to do so.

[Davef68]

Maybe they want an insight into the three main types likely to be deployed against them by their neighbours

[Mil-26Man]

Maybe they want an insight into the three main types likely to be deployed against them by their neighbours

The world's first all-Aggressor air force. Seems legit.

[Rhino power]

Israel doesn't get invited to Red Flag because it flies Falcons and Eagles.

Wrong. The Israeli AF has been invited to and flown both it's F-15s and F-16s in several Red Flag exercises...

-RP

[melmothtw]

Wrong. The Israeli AF has been invited to and flown both it's F-15s and F-16s in several Red Flag exercises...

-RP

Thanks Rhino, I know that. My point was that Israel is not invited to Red Flag because it flies F-15s and F-16s. It is invited because it is in the interests of the US to do so.

[Speedywheels]

Qatar exercise their option to purchase a further 12 Rafale, taking the total on order to 36.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/12/07/1247277/0/en/Dassault-Aviation-Qatar-acquires-an-additional-12-Rafale.html

I heard the 24 Typhoons for Qatar are going to come from Approved Used stock (presumably ex-RAF), after an 'upgrade' and re-paint presumably.

[Roadster280]

With a population of only 3M, are they going to find enough competent pilots?

[jindabyne]

Of course. They'll employ the likes of me.

[glad rag]

Qatar exercise their option to purchase a further 12 Rafale, taking the total on order to 36.

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2017/12/07/1247277/0/en/Dassault-Aviation-Qatar-acquires-an-additional-12-Rafale.html

I heard the 24 Typhoons for Qatar are going to come from Approved Used stock (presumably ex-RAF), after an 'upgrade' and re-paint presumably.

Pure AD then?

[Fatnfast]

BWOS are stating they will be new build, therefore keeping the production line trickling until 2024. Presumably they will also have the AESA radar also.

[Could be the last?]

Does anyone know which helmet(s) the pilots will be using for the jet?

[Stitchbitch]

Does anyone know which helmet(s) the pilots will be using for the jet?

There’s quite a choice isn’t there. With money to burn, perhaps the over engineered knobbly one plus a night capable one?

[melmothtw]

I heard the 24 Typhoons for Qatar are going to come from Approved Used stock (presumably ex-RAF), after an 'upgrade' and re-paint presumably.

So Tranche 1 aircraft? For Qatar, that has money to burn? As far as I am aware, the Tranche 1 cannot be upgraded to a Tranche 2/3, regardless of how much money you throw at it

Doesn't seem likely, but then that's true of so much of Qatar's recent fighter procurement/announcements.

[Heathrow Harry]

Well they probably don't expect to use them in action against serious opposition

Right now the main threat is probably Saudi Arabia and if they come calling it'll be ground forces in very large numbers - air superiority is useless if you've only got around 13000 troops

It's really buying political influence.

And they can afford to junk them in 10 years anyway

[melmothtw]

Well they probably don't expect to use them in action against serious opposition

Right now the main threat is probably Saudi Arabia and if they come calling it'll be ground forces in very large numbers - air superiority is useless if you've only got around 13000 troops

It's really buying political influence.

And they can afford to junk them in 10 years anyway

As I've said before, if it's all about political influence and keeping friends sweet, buy something that you need, like some tanks or a ship or two.

[Lyneham Lad]

According to an article on Aviation Analysis Wing (http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2017/12/qatar-orders-additional-12-dassault-rafale.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AviationAnalysisWing+%28Aviation+Analys is+Wing%29):-

The country has placed an order for 36 Boeing F-15QA strike aircraft from United States for 21.1 USD in November 2016.

In September 2017, a Letter of Intent for acquisition of 24 Eurofighter Typhoon jets were signed between British BAE Systems. The Eurofighter is a consortium of companies from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain.

Currently the Qatar Emiri Air Force operates just 9 single engine Dassault Mirage 2000 multi-role fighters, which will be replaced by 96 twin engined high performance jets from Europe and USA.

Quite a transition! :0 Aircrew? Groundcrew?

[Heathrow Harry]

" if it's all about political influence and keeping friends sweet, buy something that you need, like some tanks or a ship or two"

No - if its influence you're after buy something they're desperate to sell to you.............

[PDR1]

The country has placed an order for 36 Boeing F-15QA strike aircraft from United States for 21.1 USD

Wow, that's some discount! I make it 58 cents per aeroplane...

PDR

[Heathrow Harry]

Just wait for the Spares bill..........................

[airpolice]

Wow, that's some discount! I make it 58 cents per aeroplane...

PDR

At last, proof that Warton are overcharging the MOD!

[West Coast]

Wow, that's some discount! I make it 58 cents per aeroplane...

Just a little fun at your expense, and yes, I know you get it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g3iFJpGJiug

[SWBKCB]

Order for 24 Typhoons confirmed today according to Radio 4, plus order for Hawks also expected.

Haven't they also ordered more Rafale's this week as well?

[Lyneham Lad]

Order for 24 Typhoons confirmed today according to Radio 4, plus order for Hawks also expected.

Haven't they also ordered more Rafale's this week as well?

Report on BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42302767)now as well.

[gr4techie]

Good news for R̶A̶F̶ ̶ BAE Coningsby, could fund another large building or two.
If only those pesky RAF Airmen didn't get in the way! By wanting to use their carpark or sitting in the Junior Ranks cafe.

[jindabyne]

Good news. Well done Eurofighter and BAES.

[TBM-Legend]

So who will fly and maintain this fleet of diverse jets?

[Heathrow Harry]

British mercenaries made redundant from the RAF in the next Defence Revue

[PDR1]

British mercenaries made redundant from the RAF in the next Defence Revue

A "Revue" is a stage show in which a bunch of (usually scantily-clad) dancers ponce around on a stage with singing and dancing without actually achieving anything useful. A "Review" is a management event in which current status is compared to current requirement with a view to planning future needs.

I was aware that Dr Fox conducted one of the former events in 2010, but I was not aware that any more were planned...

PDR

[Heathrow Harry]

Honestly I know the difference - and the next one will bring an even greater stretching of people, cancellation of kit and mealy -mouthed hand ringing dressed up as "strengthening the UK's Defenses"

So yes - a Revue

PS Something in today's Times saying the Armed Services want an extra £ 4 Bn pronto to tide them over to the next Revue/Review

[GrahamO]

With a population of only 3M, are they going to find enough competent pilots?


The Qatari population is barely 300,000


Exclude 100,000 who are too young or too old.


Exclude the ladies of Qatar who haven't been known to get a hangnail unless someone does it for them, and you're down to 100,000 maximum.


Their land army is mostly mercenaries from African ally states so I cannot see how they will ever use all 72 aircraft - they bought a load of Leopard 2 MBtanks most of which are in storage.


Its a pure leverage buy - no way can they use them without using third country nationals and would you put a state of the art aircraft in the hands of a foreigner whom you pay a pittance who could fly to Iran and be greeted with open arms and a fat cheque ?

[Heathrow Harry]

But Iran is supporting Qatar.................. anything to irritate Riyadh

[Just This Once...]

The Iranians must be having fun:

"Go on Qatar, see if the French will sell you a fleet and you will have our support..."
"...ok, now try the Brits..."
"...and you might as well give the US a go... and we will help you fill-in the end-user certificates..."

[Double Hush]

An Al Jazeera article states that the deal includes training and the creation of a Joint Operation Squadron:

"The squadron tackles all air combat operations, ensuring combat readiness for all Qatari and British pilots and technicians," said the statement.

My take on this is that British pilots (and ground crew) will be combat ready, therefore it appears to be more than just a trg organisation. Permanent employment opportunities for ex/current RAF personnel?

[Just This Once...]

Fighting for a foreign government. One hopes this is formally sanctioned by HMG to avoid a rather problematic return to the UK.

[Heathrow Harry]

In return for 24 orders??? We'd throw in a member of the R oyal family for free.....

[Load Toad]

Fighting for a foreign government. One hopes this is formally sanctioned by HMG to avoid a rather problematic return to the UK.

Happened plenty of times before - that's what the Official Secrets Act is for innit?

[David Thompson]

Perhaps this is the answer we have been looking for ? ;
Defence Minister reveals new RAF Squadron at Qatar event
The number plate of a new Typhoon squadron set to integrate Qatari personnel was revealed by Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin at a reception to celebrate the country’s national day in London today.

Statement here ;
Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson was in Doha last weekend, where he agreed a package of training and co-operation between the British and Qatari Air Forces which will see them working together more regularly as part of the multi-billion pound deal to supply the country with 24 Typhoon aircraft.

Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin expanded on that agreement at a State of Qatar National Day reception in London today. She revealed that a new UK-based Typhoon joint squadron will be called No. 12 squadron, and that it will temporarily integrate Qatari personnel, including pilots and ground-crew based at RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire.

Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin said:

Qatar proudly becomes the ninth nation to buy the world’s leading multi-role combat aircraft.

The formation of a joint squadron means our RAF will take the lead in providing training and support to the Qatari Emiri Air Force as it brings the Typhoon into service.

The Qataris will not be a permanent part of the squadron, but will be integrated ahead of the delivery of the Typhoon aircraft. The move will provide the country with valuable joint frontline experience on an RAF Typhoon Squadron and speed up their preparation for when their own jets are delivered.

The UK and Qatar already share a close defence relationship, with a joint-exercise between the Royal Air Force and Qatar Air force just last week seeing Typhoon aircraft fly over the Arabian Peninsula. Defence Minister Harriett Baldwin visited the country at the end of last month, where she met the pilots taking part in the exercise.

The two countries share mutual interests in countering violent extremism, and ensuring stability in the region, and this formation will further reinforce those ties by helping to prevent terrorism from spreading and protecting the prosperity and security of the UK at home. The new 12 squadron is currently operating Tornados, and will transition to the future Typhoon force.

The biggest export deal for the Typhoon project in a decade, valued at around £6 billion and sustaining thousands of UK jobs, Qatar is the ninth country to purchase the Typhoon. This year also saw the first delivered to Oman, whilst the MOD is leading the offer to replace Belgium’s F-16s with the jets and continues to discuss the prospect of a second batch of sales to Saudi Arabia, as it continues to bang the drum for Britain’s world-leading aerospace industry around the world.

GOV.UK website ;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-minister-reveals-new-raf-squadron-at-qatar-event .

[ORAC]

https://www.thenational.ae/world/fighter-jet-deadline-missed-as-qatar-emir-starts-uk-trip-1.753294

Fighter jet deadline missed as Qatar emir starts UK trip

[Lonewolf_50]

From ORAC's link
In light of Qatar’s historic wealth, it was not expected at the time of signing that a large loan would be necessary to fund the first installments. Since the diplomatic boycott imposed on Qatar by the Arab Quartet, including Saudi Arabia and the UAE, last year, Doha has engaged in a series of unprecedented debt market issuance exercises. Economic warfare has ripple effects.

[TEEEJ]

24 July 2018 - 12 Squadron

Joint UK-Qatari Typhon Squadron Stands up as defence relationship deepens.

As part of the multi-billion-pound contract to supply Qatar with 24 Typhoon aircraft and 9 Hawk T2 aircraft, No.12 Squadron will integrate Qatari personnel, including pilots and ground-crew, from 2019. The personnel will be initially stationed at RAF Coningsby, and then in Qatar, undertaking a package of training and co-operation with their UK counterparts. It represents a unique initiative, and not since the Second World War and the Battle of Britain has the RAF formed a squadron with another nation.

The Joint Squadron will provide the Qatari Amiri Air Force (QAAF) with valuable experience operating the aircraft and speed up their preparation for when the first QAAF Typhoon are delivered in 2022.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/joint-uk-qatari-typhoon-squadron-stands-up-as-defence-relationship-deepens/

[Martin the Martian]

Why don't RAF Squadrons and units reform and disband any more?

[pr00ne]

Because English is a living dynamic language and is ever evolving, which is what makes it such a teriffic thing.

“Disbands” and “re-forms” do seem to make more sense though.

[ORAC]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/uk-qatari-typhoons-take-off-as-joint-squadron/

UK-Qatari Typhoons Take Off As Joint Squadron

The Royal Air Force and Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) Typhoon Squadron, known as No.12 Squadron (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/squadrons/12-squadron/), have marked an important milestone as they commenced flying as a Joint Squadron......