PPU to open up to other airlines' pilots

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/announces-expansion-plans-11586?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Any Virgin pilots like to comment?

[Fire and brimstone]

Not a Virgin pilot, but I'd have to say this is most welcome.

Any association that acts like a union should, and not just another branch of airline management is most welcome. I'll be clear on this: an association that acts in the interest of the employees first, not the employer.

Expect the usual attacks from the pro-BALPA stooges ................

[HundredPercentPlease]

F&B,

In many industries with vast numbers of workers, it is common to have multiple recognised unions in a company. Each union has the same goal - to represent the interests of their members. This is all good.

The unions, with this goal in mind, work together and present Single Table Bargaining (STB) to the company. Again, all good. One union does not want to (and indeed MUST not) act to seek detriment to another union member. Everyone is pulling in the same direction.

Unfortunately, this is not what the PPU is about. The PPU is all about effecting the destruction of BALPA. Removing the body that allows pilots to act as one does not sound to me like a body acting in the interests of employees...

You may think that I have made a "bold" statement, but it is fact.


It is in their mission statement.
It is emphasised on the front page of their website.
At Virgin, there is a split membership. Virgin agreed to STB, BALPA agreed to STB, PPU flatly refused.
At Virgin, the PPU are running industrial action (that hasn't done anything) to force the removal of the BALPA members representation. I believe there were plenty of "not turning up to agreed meetings with ACAS" by the PPU, but may be wrong.


The PPU have been condemned by other major unions for their anti-union position. Never before has a "union" worked to de-recognise another union. That is not how "looking after employees" goes.

There are other issues too. Having two unions with decent infrastructure, expertise, backing and so on could be argued as a good thing (competition?) but also a bad thing (conflicting). But does the PPU have any infrastructure at all, or is it just one pilot, a couple of key helpers, and a retired bloke who helps out? Maybe the clue is in the the use of their term "the board", which doesn't sound like a help-group to me.

In short, beware. The PPU has a stated goal and proven track record that is all about the destruction of the one organisation that is there to help us. All of us (except Ryanair, of course, who can't seem to help themselves).

PS I'm not a BALPA apologist. I didn't like what BALPA was doing in my company, so I got involved with BALPA to try to effect change. I didn't decide to go about destroying BALPA because that, in my opinion, would be detrimental to employees.

[IcePack]

Probably worth mentioning that BALPA is in reality for any given airline is the current CC for that airline. Whilst BALPA does have some over all policies it is the CC that have sway. So if the PPU are trying to destroy BALPA they will have to do it at each airline. Whilst BALPA is considered by many to be a union, it is in fact an association.
I often hear ***dy BALPA have done this or that, when in reality it is the elected CC that have done it. I.e your fellow pilots elected by you the members.
If you don't like what your CC is doing put yourself up for election to the CC next time around. Obviously you have to join BALPA to do that.

[Fire and brimstone]

(Sigh).

It's a free society, and people have the RIGHT to join whichever union THEY choose.

What is not right - or reasonable - is to attack people for making this choice.

If you don't want to join the PPU, then DON'T!

If you don't want to join BALPA, then DON'T!

Ditto the IPA or Unite.

OR ........ join all of them!

I also don't agree with the claim that a Union is as good as the CC. If you have a crap CC, then blame either the folk who vote them in, or, more likely, the general apathy that tends to prevail.

If we had one, wonderful, union, this debate would not be happening.

Is it any different to choosing an insurance company, at the end of the day? If you think they are any good, you will stick with them.

If - heaven forbid - anyone is ever let down by a union, or has a bad experience* - then they can go elsewhere.

AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS ABOUT LOOKING AFTER EMPLOYEES - NOT JUST COLLECTING THE SUBS EACH MONTH.

P.S. Can someone copy and paste the bit about the PPU wanting to effect the destruction of BALPA?

Cheers.

* Not known in documented union history.

[HundredPercentPlease]

P.S. Can someone copy and paste the bit about the PPU wanting to effect the destruction of BALPA?



F&B

Not sure how to copy and paste an entire dispute (PPU vs Virgin, last year or two) but the core issue is that the PPU want sole recognition, and not STB. Ie, they want Virgin to de-recognise BALPA entirely.

Their mission statement says:

To be the effective and recognised representative body for pilots of carriers throughout the industry.

One issue the PPU has had is that it collects members, and then presents to the company "we would like voluntary sole recognition AND a continuation of all the agreements made with BALPA". I'm sure you can imagine the response that gets, but in case you have had a long day it's "er, no - new union, new agreements from scratch".

Since the ongoing Virgin dispute, the PPU have found themselves in a bit of a corner. Their industrial techniques have been somewhat naive, and have caused a movement of membership away from the PPU and back to BALPA.

Who needs a company to disassemble our united force, when we seem to be quite capable of doing it ourselves? MOL will be laughing his tits off.

But go ahead, do what you want. It's your choice!

[HundredPercentPlease]

theppu,

You make a good point. BALPA (via the VAA CC) made some drastic errors a few years ago. The price paid was the emergence of the PPU. BALPA have put their hand up, changed processes to ensure it doesn't happen again and have a new GS with a different outlook.

Apologies if I tried to paint BALPA as perfect. Clearly, they are not.

But I stand by my comment about the PPU's negotiations with VAA. They became entrenched and are now stuck. Naive? Looked like it to me, could be wrong.

All that upsets me is that our position as pilots might be weakened by our own actions. As pilots we are not good at seeing the "union movement". We see unions as service providers, much like a mobile phone provider. Monthly payment, want my service.

It's not about that. It's about acting as one - cooperating and coordinating. The PPU are seeking to dismantle that for their own growth.

[Flightrider]

That would be a first for a poster with that handle from Gozo (if indeed you really are).

Although I have nothing to add about the PPU's representation at an individual level, surely joining a union is only of wider use if you think there is any prospect of that union being recognised by your employer for collective bargaining. With BALPA recognised by a good many UK airlines, there seem to be few openings where the PPU could hope to become the recognised union. If it is just going to challenge BALPA, TU laws in the UK don't provide for a recognised union to be de-recognised, so this will simply result in today's stalemate on recognition in V/Atl being replicated across all UK airlines. It's not exactly a step change in industrial relations.

[PA28161]

Or... don't join a union at all.

[The PPU]

This is the official Pprune account of The PPU (UK Trade union No 812T), who hold the Trade Mark for the name, The PPU.

We wish to make it very clear that The PPU is based in the UK (as our profile and Certification Office listing confirms) and that the poster/individual posting under the identity of "theppu (Gozo)" in this thread and elsewhere in Pprune, is not the The PPU, nor represents the views, opinions or policies of The PPU, nor is the poster "theppu" in any way connected to The PPU.

[alvinsmate]

Is it just possible that theppu could be connected in someway with the ppu? Only I believe that one of the board members is based in Malta. Could it be that he's just been careless or is it a total coincidence?

As for the PPU going national. Given they have failed to gain a recognition agreement to date in VAA why would anyone join them?

[Akrapovic]

Is it possible that alvinsmate could be connected in someway to HundredPercentPlease ?

:=

[alvinsmate]

nope - I have no connection with him/her

[skymonkey1]

Lets be totally honest here - the pilots voted for a pay deal and then turned against their own union. they split from BALPA and formed the PPU. Four years later and their main achivement is to continue to deny that they ever voted yes to their own deal. Four years of beating a drum about union recognition and they have failed. in VA there is now a split pilot workforce and a toxic environment. BALPA continue to be the only union that negotiates for the pilots and VA have some of the best pay scales and Ts&Cs in the UK. The agreements between airline and the union are not transferable so why would it be in the interest of any UK pilot workforce to split their own bargaining group. Answers on a postcard and sent to a boat offshore around Malta somewhere. BALPA may not be perfect but a union that sets out to undermine collective strength for the sake of bitterness and ego is not a union for UK based pilots.

[MonarchOrBust]

I flew with someone who had a chip on his shoulder about something BALPA did 35 years ago. I asked him if he thought anyone in BALPA today was there 35 years ago. You have to wonder....

[Fire and brimstone]

You make an excellent point, and that person is being absurd.

By the same virtue any 'grievance' should be limited to being ' pineappled' by them recently.

You will always have some selfish idiots who think the union is there to protect them / be on their side / make sure individuals are not bullied.

Keep your head down, and repeat the mantra "I'm allright Jack", it will never happen to me.

At the end of the day, HOW DARE another union think it can exist, or think it can do a better job. If these Virgin fools want to be represented by the PPU, BALPA have every right to fight tooth and nail to keep a foothold.

:ugh:

[Thad Jarvis]

Fundamentally this union was created not to give a choice but instead to destroy BALPA. That's the sort of ego's being dealt with. The BALPA of today is a different animal to the one when this PPU farce started. It has a different NEC, new leaders and a new Gen Sec..all in line with what its membership asked for. It has embraced change and explored new directions. It is not perfect by any means but it realistically the only show in town and its worldwide connections are the only ones worth real consideration if you happen to find yourself standing on a dark foreign runway in the middle of the night.

[HundredPercentPlease]

The only people convinced that this is some ruse to destroy BALPA are the narcissistic BALPA diehards

Help me out here.

Can you explain why, at VS, the PPU are insistent on sole recognition, thus disallowing the voices of the BALPA members? BALPA have agreed to STB, why not the PPU? I thought the ongoing ASOS was to achieve sole recognition, or is that not the case?

The fear is not of a new union (there are plenty of existing unions), it's the fear of a union that does not uphold the existing principals of the union movement. No union has ever tried to disallow the voice of other union members.

Would appreciate an answer not laced with rather inappropriate insulting language. Respect, etc.

[Thad Jarvis]

Narcissistic BALPA diehards?
Sorry I missed that original post but that sort of language suggests what I feared all along about the PPU. They're not an alternative trade union, they're a cult.

[A38lephant]

Help me out here.

Can you explain why, at VS, the PPU are insistent on sole recognition, thus disallowing the voices of the BALPA members? BALPA have agreed to STB, why not the PPU? I thought the ongoing ASOS was to achieve sole recognition, or is that not the case?

The fear is not of a new union (there are plenty of existing unions), it's the fear of a union that does not uphold the existing principals of the union movement. No union has ever tried to disallow the voice of other union members.

Would appreciate an answer not laced with rather inappropriate insulting language. Respect, etc.

Why not phone The PPU? Details are on their website if that helps? Best to hear the facts from the horses mouth rather than the subjective, sometimes heated opinions you hear on here.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Why do you guys have more than one union? It's simply not allowed in the USA. You have one bargaining agent who is certified by the government to act on your behalf. That prevents the workgroup from being whipsawed by management.

I don't say that our system is better but I can see the pitfalls in yours. And I say this from the perspective of being under a union that was very detrimental to myself and the other 1400 pilots in my base.

[Fire and brimstone]

The solution would be for everyone to be in the Transport & General Workers Union.

All aviation workers.

Trouble is they are a bit expensive at £16 a month. Who could afford it?

:ugh:

[sicknote]

Thad Jarvis

Or, how about the PPU is an independent UK trade union accredited by the Central Arbitration Committee? Insults do not further the debate now, do they?

[UAV689]

Pilots are their own worst enemy! The management have it so easy!!

Can ASLEF take over all pilot negotiations yet? Hiw have they managed such unity over the years?!

[Threethirteen]

Can anyone please tell me if members of the PPU were able to claim HMRC Tax Relief on their membership fees?

[Lordflasheart]

I was going to suggest you called the PPU but unfortunately ....................... You probably know that already.

PPU does not currently appear (or no longer appears) on the HMRC list of professional bodies for subs tax relief.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/professional-bodies-approved-for-tax-relief-list-3/approved-professional-organisations-and-learned-societies

I am informed that only the 'insurance element' was allowable, whatever that means.

Good luck.

[Ancient Observer]

No TU as an entity has any Power whatsoever.
All TUs gain their negotiating power from their members.

Folk often forget that.