Mayday over the Wash

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

About 1100 today (11/09/2017) I overheard a Mayday call from an Arrow over the Wash; rough running followed by smoke in the cockpit, followed by engine failure. D&D asked him to keep transmitting after landing to see if he was ok: I was in the hold at LAM so lost him as he descended.
Everyone ok?

[David Thompson]

AAIB reporting in an email notice this evening that a team has been sent to investigate a light aircraft accident that occurred north of King's Lynn , Norfolk .

[7of9]

Pilot and passenger killed in Norfolk light aircraft crash - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-09-11/light-aircraft-crash-near-wolferton-in-norfolk/)

[Mike Flynn]

More here. Wolferton plane crash reaction - Latest Norfolk and Suffolk News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/shocked-villagers-react-to-death-of-two-people-in-wolferton-light-aircraft-crash-1-5190577)

[Maoraigh1]

Textbook journalism, how to write an article if you have no information about an accident.

[Cusco]

Interesting points: Unusual for the a/c type to be named so early in the reporting.
Also a/c reported landing with 'no undercarriage' .
Does anybody have more details as I have a friend who flies an Arrow from his own farmstrip not far from crash site.

Ages in report wrong, though.

Cusco

[Maoraigh1]

Aircraft type was mentioned by the OP, who heard the mayday. The BBC now has AAIB pics, and it looks like a good landing. Perhaps hitting some solid, unseen, obstruction?

[JETPORT]

From Airline flight crew.
(11/09/2017) about 11am 121.5
We also heard the Mayday call from aircraft over the Wash , he stated he was in a PA 28 Arrow and that the he had rough running engine and was going to try make Marham but didn't know if he could make it . We could hear the rough engine in the background of the transmission.
There was a pause then he said " Oh Christ there's smoke in the cockpit "
We were writing it down to relay and heard that the Military had pick up transmission
I have passed this onto AAIB .

[locustflyer]

My thoughts to all the family and friends of those involved. I was over the area at FL380 and heard it all unfold on 121.5. Rough running engine could be heard in background followed by a call that they had smoke in cockpit followed by engine failure. I was listening ready to pass on a message that they were down safely but did not hear anything and was just hoping as we flew north then we were out of range to hear. Was so sad to hear the news.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

BBC Norfolk News has named the pilot and stated that the aircraft was "Flying back from Menorca to Newcastle".

[MATELO]

From the local Newspaper.

Much-loved former Gateshead school worker Valerie Barnes killed in plane crash - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/valerie-barnes-bensham-plane-crash-13614743)

[A320ECAM]

Such a shame to read about this accident.

I do wonder whether the airframe can be repaired as well but it looks quite smashed in the photos.

[Tashengurt]

I think that aircraft had been parked up for quite some time at Newcastle. I would see it quite often on the pan. I wondered then if it was abandoned.

[Maoraigh1]

Damage looks to be from cutting to extract occupants rather than the landing.

[Mike Flynn]

I think that aircraft had been parked up for quite some time at Newcastle. I would see it quite often on the pan. I wondered then if it was abandoned.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/635/22390435137_280a42f151_b.jpg
That picture was taken November 2015 at Newcastle Airport. Paint showing signs of distress.

Another picture here from July 2016 showing the paint suffering from being parked up.
https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/09/13/IMG_4569.jpg

I suspect that a long period parked outside with the oil draining down from vital parts is not good. If the owner then just fires up and embarks on a long trip that must have taken its toll on the engine.

If the paint lacquer was breaking up what was happening inside to the mechanical parts?

I know from my own log books that I have often flown some very long sectors followed by periods where the aircraft has sat on the ground for a month or even longer. This is typical of an owner who uses the aircraft to travel long distances before parking up.

In contrast flying clubs seem to run their aircraft up to life with no problems.

In this accident it appears from reports that the engine suffered some sort of catastrophic failure.

The pictures clearly show the gear was not lowered. Sad to say if he had cleared that bund or bank the outcome might well have been different. The T tail won't have helped.

I see no marks in the grass behind so wonder if he stalled in?
https://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/w_700,f_auto,ar_3:2,c_fill/http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/webimage/1.8146298.1505217864!/image/image.jpg


At 11.00 am on the day the local weather was thundery squalls with a low cloud base. The aircraft had flown from Menorca with a destination of Newcastle.

The paint in the picture below appears to reflect corrosion from being parked outside? I wonder what the AAIB investigation will reveal on the cause of the engine failure?

https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/6956/production/_97766962_plane2.jpg

[DownWest]

Looking at the very twisted port wing, might the a/c have spun round? Would explain the lack of trail this side and what appears to be débris ahead of it

[Mike Flynn]

Aerial view here.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/3B53/production/_97778151_de27-1.jpg

[Sir Niall Dementia]

That area has a lot of dykes. It appears from Jay's overhead that the aircraft hit the dyke in the undershoot rather than landing in the field where the two vehicles are. Certainly if I was aiming for the harrowed field I would have left the gear up. Often its' better than having the gear down and digging in and flipping over.

SND

[Camargue]

I would agree with sir Niall, undershoot. id also keep gear up, (having done a gear up landing after and efato i'd possibly use that option for anything other than billiard ball field)
though maybe if it was down he would have landed half way down the field he was in.

As the air frame looks relatively intact, wonder if they were just wearing lap straps and got thrown about.

Anyway all conjecture and very sad for all concerned.

[megan]

wonder if they were just wearing lap straps and got thrown aboutPossibility, had a good friend who flew into the side of a hill at night. Very benign type of crash, in that the aircraft received very little damage and would normally be considered a good force landing, if it hadn't been entirely accidental. Not wearing the shoulder strap, only the lap, hit his head on the instrument panel during the deacceleration. Accident happened at 0100 and found at 0700, body still warm. Bled to death.

[mary meagher]

Question: as the T-tail is useful for elevating or lowering the nose of the aircraft, it should still be effective very near or on the ground in a field landing, better than a standard elevator?

[Flyingmac]

Question: as the T-tail is useful for elevating or lowering the nose of the aircraft, it should still be effective very near or on the ground in a field landing, better than a standard elevator?



No Mary. They run out of elevator authority before the standard one does. Well known for it. The Lance suffers from the same.

[rolling20]

As the air frame looks relatively intact, wonder if they were just wearing lap straps and got thrown about.

Once when a Bulldog went in, one of our QFIs told us : 'You may think that as the fuselage looks intact, that it may have been survivable. Let me assure you, that the aircraft hit the ground with enough force.....' To put it politely, it wasn't survivable.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Once when a Bulldog went in, one of our QFIs told us : 'You may think that as the fuselage looks intact, that it may have been survivable. Let me assure you, that the aircraft hit the ground with enough force.....' To put it politely, it wasn't survivable.

It seems to go both ways. The 1979 crash of P-51D "Red Baron" piloted by Steve Hinton was mentioned recently in another thread, so it immediately came to mind: "The RB-51 crashed short of the runway. The wings were sheared off as the plane came down between two piles of rock and the fuel erupted in a fireball. The cockpit was thrown end-over-end away from the fire, yet Hinton survived with a broken back, leg, and ankle. His survival is attributed by one of the lead engineers, Pete Law, to additional braces and a roll bar installed on the cockpit."
It took some effort, but i found a photo. The text is from a sponsor, Michelob beer.
https://neprisstore.blob.core.windows.net/sessiondocs/doc_a644c03a-4a24-43d9-8b4e-190c8c01ab0b.jpg

Looking at the wreck of the Piper I too thought it looked survivable, sorry it wasn't.

[megan]

One of the features of tin built aircraft is that they can suffer deformation during the crash and then recover to an undamaged looking state. Oil canning on a grand scale. The cabin can be deformed/crushed to the point of killing the occupants and then pop out to an almost undamaged looking state.

[Tashengurt]

Sadly I think the most benign looking crash can produce shearing deceleration injuries that just aren't survivable.

[rolling20]

Sadly I think the most benign looking crash can produce shearing deceleration injuries that just aren't survivable.

That is very well put. I daresay the AAIB will give us better insight.

[JEM60]

Agree with Tashengurt. Sudden stops are a killer, used to occur a lot in motor racing until more sophisticated head restraints came in.

[treadigraph]

Some years ago Pilot Dar posted a photo of an SF260 which crashed recovering from a spin at Oshkosh. The airframe looked remarkably intact, yet the pilot succumbed to his injuries a day or two later.

[Teddy Robinson]

A footnote relating to the PA28R201T, as I used to instruct on these.
In common with many products from this manufacturer, there was an automatic gear lowering feature, which doubtless saved many a red face in the flying club bar, but was a pain in the neck in the event of an engine failure. Our SOP was to override the system.

If you did not, as you reduced towards best slide speed, the gear would suddenly deploy and your carefully planned circuit would be history.
The extra drag is significant on this aircraft type.

Very sad to see two people lose their lives in this accident.

[Katamarino]

No Mary. They run out of elevator authority before the standard one does. Well known for it. The Lance suffers from the same.

I understood this was due to the fact that the horizontal stab in a T tail is up out of the prop-wash and therefore has less authority at lower speeds; which would not be relevant with a failed engine.

[Flyingmac]

I tend to land both types with a closed throttle. The T-tail a few knots quicker to avoid a nosewheel-first arrival. I've been told that the conventional tail is in in clean air in the flare. The T-tail is partially blanked by disturbed air from the wings.


I don't know if this is true and I don't care. I do know that the last aircraft to drop short of the runway at my base and rip its gear off was a Lance. Not me.:=

[Mike Flynn]

The AAIB report is now out.

The conclusion is catastrophic engine failure due to poor maintenance and infrequent use.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b69b54f40f0b62ea046e36e/Piper_PA-28RT-201_Cherokee_Arrow_IV_G-BHAY_08-18.pdf

[Tashengurt]

Sadly there's no surprises in that reporr.