What now?

[Sam Ting Wong]

What now?

A thread exlusively about the best future strategy. Let's put the past behind us, forget what could or should have been done, let's focus on the future and the future only.

I want to hear suggestions on how to deal with this imminent threat on our cos, our lives.

No accusations, no personal attacks or insults,no platitudes, just pure, pragmatic suggestions.

If you think all is lost, North Korea will destroy the world anyway, all managers are evil and hence it doesn't matter what we do, then please refrain from participating. Thank you.

[Brown Nose]

Well Matey, your mouth seems to be as big as the chest you beat, how about a motion to strike unless the company treats us as what we are worth. You'll get my +1

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well Matey, your mouth seems to be as big as the chest you beat, how about a motion to strike unless the company treats us as what we are worth. You'll get my +1

First post, first personal
attack. Nice.

What big mouth? What chest did I beat? Why do you think I want your +1?

Hopeless.

[Brown Nose]

Not an attack, an honest request.

Also stating the obvious. Do you not read what you write on here, if that is not being a big mouth and chest beating, I don't know what is.

So are you man enough to put the motion forward or not?

[Sam Ting Wong]

It's not about manhood, it is about the right or wrong strategy.

I personally do not think we have the unity for a strike, but you don't have to agree with me.

I want to hear suggestions how to deal with the company in the future.

And no, I do not think the answer is obvious.

If you think strike is a feasible and realistic option feel free to suggest it.

How can a request for suggestions possibly be chest beating?

[Oval3Holer]

Strike, slowdown, or work-to-rule (contract compliance.) That's all there is. Period.

There will never be a strike. Ask a 49er or a friend of a 49er.

Slowdown? Want to be another 49er?

Contract compliance? We're doin' it.

That's it.

Nothing to discuss.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Why the need to do anything?

The training ban is still effective.

Of course we can think of a plan B (picketing, rest of the trainers temporarily resign) should the company use the nuke option, but there's no need to do anything now.

If we had agreed to the TA last time, maybe the company would be looking at the same cost cutting measures now, but we'd have lost all leverage.
Is it such an improbable scenario?

We still have leverage.
We can sit on our hands for another year or two.

But be sure that if my salary/housing take a cut, I am ready to do more.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Strike, slowdown, or work-to-rule (contract compliance.) That's all there is. Period.

There will never be a strike. Ask a 49er or a friend of a 49er.

Slowdown? Want to be another 49er?

Contract compliance? We're doin' it.

That's it.

Nothing to discuss.

If there is nothing to discuss, what is the purpose of your post?

I disagree. There never has been more to discuss then in this very moment.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Why the need to do anything?

The training ban is still effective.

Of course we can think of a plan B (picketing, rest of the trainers temporarily resign) should the company use the nuke option, but there's no need to do anything now.

If we had agreed to the TA last time, maybe the company would be looking at the same cost cutting measures now, but we'd have lost all leverage.
Is it such an improbable scenario?

We still have leverage.
We can sit on our hands for another year or two.

But be sure that if my salary/housing take a cut, I am ready to do more.

Zapp, do you really think the trainers would all suddenly resign? I doubt that very much. Apart from an angry letter I haven't seen much activity from their side. What makes you think this could change suddenly?

To your point of "sitting on your hands": the ARAPA contract expires, are you not concerned by that? Or not affected?

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Affected and concerned? Yes, I am. Who knows what stupid(ier) decision our managers can make.

ARAPA is up for renewal. And they can amend it from time to time. It doesn't mean they can make it disappear.

But they have issues now, with the training ban.
Do you think that making us more angry will solve that problem?

Her drivel is there to make us scared, so we accept any bad deal coming our way.

Take a lot, then give back a little.
Known tactic.

[Brokeidiot]

Affected and concerned? Yes, I am. Who knows what stupid(ier) decision our managers can make.

ARAPA is up for renewal. And they can amend it from time to time. It doesn't mean they can make it disappear.

But they have issues now, with the training ban.
Do you think that making us more angry will solve that problem?

Her drivel is there to make us scared, so we accept any bad deal coming our way.

Take a lot, then give back a little.
Known tactic.


The deal just means they have to supply "reasonable" accommodation hopefully the AOA is building up a good argument for the courts why a village house in Tung Chung isn't reasonable.

The only option to increase pressure now is super safe operations... wait deja vu

[betpump5]

20\40\60 for non trainers.
ARAPA for trainers and managers.

How many trainers will leave then? How many line Captains will leave the hopeless (hapless???) AOA and join the C&T ranks to protect themselves and family?

I fear only an escalation of CC will get us anywhere. Not a strike - too many baby felidae around. But along the lines of 'safety' and a round of Golf. ..

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Where did this 20/40/60 rumour come from? Seems unlikely

[bacou]

There are many other alternatives to what's coming.

If management wants to save money on expensive HKG housing, Commuting options or bases must be offered.

Increase Productivity; I thought CMP should deal with that issue, how can pilots help when they are rostered inefficiently?

KA being less productive: get us flying mixed fleet and give the 330 longer sectors.

I don't think we received that AT letter in our mailbox at KA, a friend sent it to me.
I am sure though that what ends up being negociated by AOA will be forced on us, I trust CX pilots will be strong enough not to accept any loss on our contracts until management has dealt with the inefficiencies of a system they don't want to change.

[betpump5]

Where did this 20/40/60 rumour come from? Seems unlikely

Not really. Yes the numbers are not based on anything concrete. But the intention is there and spelt out in the latest toilet paper. ARAPA, as we know it, will change into a HKPA for all HK based pilots.

[Freehills]

Where did this 20/40/60 rumour come from? Seems unlikely

Agree, because it is more generous than is offered to others of equivalent management grade in Cathay. Housing allowance *shouldn't* be different for a level C engineer or an FO, the difference in market value should be in pay.

[betpump5]

Er, No. Unless this is a windup and your tongue is firmly in your cheek.

[Liam Gallagher]

You are supposed to be pilots and good with numbers. 20/40/60 won't save them much money. It will probably cost them money. It's all demographics. Also think about the 5 year picture. How many expats will have retired? However, the ever increasing demographic of HKPA people will have seen their HKPA double. Think of all those new joiners to do those 2 x SO flights joining on $20k instead of $10k.

20/40/60... Nah... Can't see it sorry...

[Freehills]

Yep. CX will be looking at what HKA/ HKE offer, and thinking that they only need to pay xx above that. Where xx is not a big number.

[Kitsune]

And your point is....?

[raven11]

Walk away from the HPE farce....

[YeahNahYeah]

Agree, because it is more generous than is offered to others of equivalent management grade in Cathay. Housing allowance *shouldn't* be different for a level C engineer or an FO, the difference in market value should be in pay.

Er, No. Unless this is a windup and your tongue is firmly in your cheek.

If you want the support of the rest of the staff you should suck this one up and move on. At the end of the day what justification is there for one group of staff to be subsidized by the company to have a higher standard of living compared to their peers? OTOH if the work is more valuable and can be linked to a higher total remuneration package - then just be open and honest about and say you want to be classed at a higher grade with a higher cash salary. And then watch how that plays out...

Whoever came up with this crap mix of fixed costs + market-driven costs for packages should have realised it would cause no end of problems when the market declines or becomes more competitive. It's analogous to the fuel contracts debacle. People have baked these benefits into their lives and it's now horrendous to unwind. Employment contracts should be respected in the same way CX are respecting the hedging contracts.

Neither situation should have been allowed to happen in the first place. HPE FTW.