Anna's Antics

[ron burgandy]

Well it looks like the North Korean penchant for brinkmanship is catching on in the DFO's office.

I'll leave it to others to pull apart the bulk of the propaganda emailed tonight, save to say, I did have a giggle that she's sent out the best ad for opening the bases- complete with a little pie chart showing the cost saving.

If they actually believe that we believe this tale of doom, it must be bordering on negligence that they allow people they consider that dumb to fly their aircraft.

[Dragon69]

To reach our savings targets.....we need to consider a number of measures, including;

1. Productivity improvements
3. Changes in EFP

Dream on Anna! You get zero from me, i'll stay on my current contract!

[The FUB]

Dream on Anna! You get zero from me, i'll stay on my current contract!

Dream on. Your AOA will sell you out.

[crwkunt roll]

Industry benchmarking confirms that current ARAPA assistance is very high and well above market rates for accommodation and rental assistance, so this is an area in which significant savings can be made.
I thought it WAS LINKED to the market???

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dream on Anna! You get zero from me, i'll stay on my current contract!

Dream on. Your AOA will sell you out.

Which part of "the ARAPA contract expires" don't you understand?

[IDS]

I bet that Anna's "assistance is very high and well above market rates for accommodation and rental assistance, so this is an area in which significant savings can be made"!!!

[AQIS Boigu]

This entire letter is full of fancy graphs and contradictions.

Pilots might take this email seriously if she and her executive management team lead by example.

[FreemaninHK]

Anna.. my Ms's is with a major bank..

her salary is higher than mine.

Education.. 250K per child

Housing.. straight cash... (so we use Cx's and save hers-- F *U Swire)

I'm sorry.. Our package is far below the average expat in HK.


You will get nothing..

[GTC58]

Looks like her email was only addressed to the Hong Kong officers. Seems like none of the based crew received it. Interesting ......

[Natca]

Plain and simple, stop the whipsaw, no concessions, no giving in, keep on doing what we are doing.

[boxjockey]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-04/work-in-a-bank-sleep-in-a-bunk-hong-kong-s-co-living-trend

box

[Brown Nose]

AOA, ffs, get the hell out of the room. How are you even entertaining this BS

[betpump5]

Highest cost base in HKG. Hmmm. Now I wonder what the solution can be??

I guess you didn't learn much on that Clown course you took at Stanford Night college.

[GTC58]

Titanic comes to mind. Combine this with an armed conflict between the USA and North Korea and our yields will be non existent. Time to Leave if you ask me.

[cxorcist]

I will address only the charts since AT's words are meaningless drivel. My assumption is that the charts have a chance at honesty.

Chart #1 Shows both gross and net yields falling but still positive. This is to be expected. Fuel prices are down and ticket prices, over time, are bound to follow. This chart does not share why CX has hemorrhaged cash over the past few years because the net yield is still in strongly positive territory. Translated, that means CX is still making money on its core business despite the poor management. It's fuel (and currency?) hedges that are depleting the balance sheet, not yours and my compensation packages. Without poor hedges, CX would not have lost a penny.

Charts A and B show an increase in cargo capacity of 17.5% against a correlating increase in crew costs of 29.2%. My question is this, is chart B corrected for inflation? I bet it's not. If not, then costs are likely very similar to the increase in ATKs.

Chart C again shows increasing crew costs by about 10%. Again, same question, is this corrected for inflation? If not, then it is a meaningless chart. In fact, this chart properly corrected for inflation may well show a decrease in crew costs. How else would all the cadets be accounted for? Are we to believe that crew costs more now with a much lower percentage of expats than in 2012?

The last chart seems to show the disparate costs associated with the HK based CX pilots. Another meaningless chart! Without knowing the portion of CX/KA flying that is crewed by these pilots, the graph tells us nothing other than HK based CX pilots are more numerous than their bases colleagues or KA. No duh! In fact KA pilots are on better contracts than CX pilots and are far less efficient in terms of block hours flown. This chart says nothing more than HK based CX pilots have the biggest targets on their back purely by the fact that we are the largest demographic.

This whole update is pure drivel supported by meaningless charts.

[ACMS]

Is the only reason Crew costs have gone up because we employed MORE Crew?

Shock horror.....we certainly didn't get paid more......

You couldn't make this stuff up.

[Shep69]

Pretty bullish!t is still bullish!t -- even with 27 8x10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one.

Well worded bullish!t is still bullish!t

Bullsh!t is great when used for its intended purpose but isn't so great when used where it doesn't belong. And it all smells the same.

Here's a (true) story where some interesting parallels might be made and lessons learned. It's not unique and there are many similar sagas within the airline industry.

G. Heileman Brewing company was an up and coming US brewing company in the late 70s and through the 80s. During this time it made decent beer (i.e. had a decent product) and enjoyed stellar growth; coming to within striking distance of Anheuser Busch and Phillip Morris (Miller)--the company being the US's 4th largest brewer behind these two and Schlitz-Stroh. It enjoyed a (mostly) good working relationship with the TU's operating the plants and incorporated incentives and profit sharing within its pay structure so that all profited from productivity and increases in sales. Overall, the beer market within the US would be very competitive and increasing but somewhat flat (no pun intended) -- largely due to societal changes and anti-drink driving legislation (as well as other shifting attitudes toward drinking). And the gains in the Heileman empire would largely be due to acquisitions and exploitations of strong brands in regional markets.

In order to continue growth, a large amount of capital (cash) was accumulated and a plan devised to buy Schlitz-Stroh. This would make the company the US's 3rd largest brewer and nipping at the heels of Phillip Morris (and potentially able to gain market share from the big two through strong brand alliance to a multitude of regional brands and the associated growth from this).

Politics and business have always been intertwined and despite a largely free-market approach by the Reagan administration his regime was no different in this regard (not to detract from what was a largely successful presidency just that there are no objective politicians anywhere). Not surprisingly, Augie Busch wasn't really happy about the potential merger (as wasn't PM) and both entities had quite a bit of political clout. So favors were called in at the Reagan justice department to block the sale on anti-trust grounds (which is hard to fathom in that if anything it would have made the industry more competitive). A line of BS called the "herfindahl index" was referenced to justify blocking the merger on anti-trust grounds.

So Heileman wouldn't get the merger and would find itself sitting on a whole bunch of cash.

Which was a bad thing in the 80s. Outside folks looking in at a company would sometimes see cash sitting in a company and play Larry the liquidator to leverage it (getting financing based on equity in a company), make things great for themselves, cash out, and trash the company. Even folks who weren't Larry could leverage equity to take over companies they wanted for whatever reasons.

Now, an Australian named Alan Bond (who would much later be jailed for fraud due his dealings and siphoning off money) would see this huge amount of cash sitting in the company and, wanting a brewing chain in the US, began a hostile takeover attempt (financing it by using junk bonds to leverage the cash within the company).

Helieman stock was selling for around USD $25 a share prior to the takeover bid. Bond would offer around 32 in his initial bid. Now, beer sales were relatively flat so while stock had done well in the past it was unlikely to jump this far in the near future.

Circling the wagons, the then management of the company would get then governor Tommy Thompson to block the sale on some grounds or another while they figured out what to do. Up to that point they'd operated a relatively successful company with strong brand loyalty and increasing sales employing thousands of workers. But they also had a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders (of whom many of the employees themselves were). Their only real sin was holding too much cash on hand and equity from the failed merger attempt.

It would be a moot point; Bond would come back with an offer in the mid-40s (to a stock that'd been selling in the mid 20's a week or two prior). Not much you can do at that point but say to shareholders "Take it" -- you're not going to double your money that quickly anywhere.

Obviously, paying twice what a company's worth can have its problems (as can gambling on fuel or currency, etc); especially when financed with junk bonds requiring a huge debt service. And there's not a sales model on the planet which could fix this, nor is there a cost cutting model which could fix this (and you can't shrink your way into trying to service huge debt anyway--in a very rapidly growing industry you MIGHT be able to grow your way out of it but this wasn't that kind of industry).

As far as I know (to Bond's credit), there was never an attempt to con the workers into belt tightening in an attempt to stop the bleeding. Wouldn't have done much anyway--a fart in a hurricane (sound familiar ?). Over the objections of what experts remained, premium labels were discounted in an attempt to generate sales and market share. This simply resulted in trashing out the premium brands (once you go down that road you don't find your way back) and wrecking revenue.

And today G. Helieman Brewing Co. is a footnote in history. Plants would be shuttered and workers lost their jobs; the labels and plants would eventually be sold. In a (somewhat) happy note their flagship plant would be resurrected by a few former employees (from before the original buyout) and would be doing quite well; albeit at a fraction of what the former empire was.

So what's the point ?

There is absolutely NOTHING -- repeat NOTHING -- the workers at the plants could have done to prevent the chain of events from happening once the company was bought by Bond and the path chosen by his management team. Even if they HAD agreed concessions, the amount saved would have been trivial and they'd just have wound up poorer when laid off. The blunders at the top were too damn big and too damn arrogant. Productivity gains, concessions in pay, etc. paled into insignificance compared with the course set in motion--and continued in motion--at the top.

Bond would continue to live high on the hog until going bankrupt in 1992. His accounts would (reportedly) be settled for around one half cent on the dollar. He would serve four years of a seven year prison sentence for siphoning off cash from an entity he held controlling interest in toward his own corporation--which would then collapse leaving the siphonee holding the bag.

So's I'd take a page or two from history when folks come up with graphs of woe.

[cxorcist]

Good story Shep. I enjoyed reading that, honestly.

I'm not sure it's a direct parallel to CX unless the conspiracy theory that the Swires (and presumably Air China) are backing money out of the Company intentionally with bad hedges. If so, they are weakening the balance sheet on purpose, presumably to get the cash out and make the Company more saleable. This scenario is certainly possible, but it gives our directors a whole lot of credit for seeing the falling fuel prices which I'm not sure they were capable of seeing. Maybe the Swires (UK) knew, but almost certainly not the CX clowns. Are they pawns in this game?

I did hear a rumour once that the final decision for the fuel hedges came directly from Merlin Swire. True? I have no idea.

[Oval3Holer]

Every CX "manager" you've ever seen is a pawn. The entire Swire empire is a puppet show run by the Swires from smoky rooms at those places you only see in movies.

[Sam Ting Wong]

It isn't time to walk away from HPE! it's time to RUN!

Where do you run to, Dan?

[Dragon69]

Are you that afraid of life STW?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Are you that afraid of life STW?

Let me guess. You are not on ARAPA.

I just wonder how you can "run away" from an expiring contract, that is all.

Can you explain me how to do that?

[Dragon69]

Let me guess. You are not on ARAPA.

I just wonder how you can "run away" from an expiring contract, that is all.

Can you explain me how to do that?

On the contrary, I am on ARAPA with a mortgage, but I choose not to succumb to scare tactics that's been used over and over again. What part of "housing is contractual" do you not understand? Sure they can change the amount once it expires, but they have to pay me something reasonable.

Regardless whether or not the AoA sells our souls, at the end of the day they cannot change your CoS without your consent. If they choose to fire people for not signing so be it, if enough don't sign they going to find themselves in a bind.

You can run STW or you can make stand. One thing is for sure there is life after Cathay.

[Gnadenburg]

In fact KA pilots are on better contracts than CX pilots and are far less efficient in terms of block hours flown. This chart says nothing more than HK based CX pilots have the biggest targets on their back purely by the fact that we are the largest demographic.

I'm sure that's what you've been fed and you can sense the divisions have been masterfully whipped up by management from over our way ( KA ) .

It's far more complex than that and every command at KA is C scale as is every new joining F/O. Some one can correct me too, but is the cadet scheme been driven towards a tokenism with direct entry expatriates offering bigger savings?

Our management lobbyists within the DPA brought industrial peace for the outgoing KA GMO. The peace was already there anyways I sensed. However, typically, though anecdotally, the outgoing GMO's message to the KA pilot group was that Contract Compliance was inevitable- by next year !

CX pilots have been around long enough to see more clarity in the current environment and not fall for the divisive plays I would have hoped? What might help though is, I haven't met a KA pilot who has any desire to be part of your group. You have a miserable, ugly and toxic aviation environment loaded with bullies. I doubt if KA pilots can avoid the inevitable but being drawn closer and closer to CX city is not the least bit desirable, which probably surprises your legacy mindsets?

Putting both pilot groups in contract compliance will be a disaster from every angle. Health and sanity of KA pilots will be a sadly interesting undertone - KA pilot sick leave is the same as CX's at the moment and that's with industrial peace ! Management is so detached from our operation they probably don't realise its genuine and only going to get worse with chronic operational delays and hotel standards.

[Farman Biplane]

I think you guys misread the email.
The DFO was complaining that Airbus and Boeing were producing too many aircraft and that the Swire Directors bonus has only risen 681% in recent times.
TAT-Times Are Tough

[1200firm]

Ah yes....individual letters in mailboxes. Rolling back the years to 1994 when GMT's father did exactly the same thing. The playbook never changes so the next step is obvious.

[Freehills]

Hmm. I guess she thinks the market in HK is HKA and HKE. Hmm I wonder what their directors get paid?

[cxorcist]

Gnad,

That KA is on a superior contract is 100% true. Expats and cadets both out-earn their like contract colleagues at CX. It's not a point for division between the two groups. It's just a fact. Highlighting that fact merely serves to counter efforts by management to make it appear that CX pilots are the problem. We are not. Neither are KA's pilots. The problem is billions of dollars of upside down fuel and currency hedges. The other problem is extremely poor management. The old adage that they "step over dollars to pick up pennies" could not be more true than it is at CX.

[positionalpor]

I am already feeling stressed
Two months of rest will do it....

[betpump5]

Stolen from the Friday Jokes thread on Jet Blast. Imagine the Woman as our DFO....


A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She reduced altitude and spotted a man below. She descended a bit more and shouted: "'Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am". The man below replied "You're in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 30 feet above the ground. You're between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude".

"You must be a technician." said the balloonist. "I am" replied the man "how did you know?" "Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you have told me is probably technically correct, but I've no idea what to make of your information and the fact is, I'm still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help at all. If anything, you've delayed my trip with your talk."

The man below responded, "You must be in management". "I am" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?" "Well," said the man "you don't know where you are or where you're going. You have risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people beneath you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my ******* fault!

[Liam Gallagher]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40756834

BBC report yesterday stating that analysis of HMRC (tax return) figures showed UK pilots enjoyed a 26% increase in pay between 2011 and 2016. Obviously that was in the UK and us humble beings in HK received nothing like that.

Success in business is all about market timing, when oil prices are falling, you hedge heavily against higher oil prices. When the market for pilots is tight and salaries are rising globally, slash your pilot's salaries and benefits.

Airlines don't need fuel and pilots, they need graphs and cheesy slogans. Time to win!!

[Shep69]

Stolen from the Friday Jokes thread on Jet Blast. Imagine the Woman as our DFO....

Pretty darn good--but the writer did forget one important tidbit.

The manager was making the entire trip (including being totally lost) using someone elses' money.

Then again, perhaps that goes without saying these days........

[Trafalgar]

It is time we ALL resolved to stand against our immoral and dishonest management.

[FreemaninHK]

ANNA,

my decades old COS is a signed contract that in 90's dollars is worth half of what I earn today. Every other major carrier is increasing pay. You want to pay me less of my 1990's dollars.

INFLATION is real. The flat I was renting in 04' now rents for 3 times that amount. Has my housing gone up 3X? No.. it hasn't really moved other than to some HKG peg which in no way represents the real cost.

SCHOOLING has gone up.. What I get covers less each year.

_

Shall i make a large pie chart that shows the cost of the crew vs the fines that were levied against us?

You want to lower housing? Open up bases. Problem solved.

Lower pay?
Start with the board.. ZERO pay. If they don't like, I'm sure we can fine some more competent directors happy to take over on zero money as they made their money elsewhere.

Directors like you.. 1/2 your packages. Money where your mouth is. Do it.

[cxorcist]

ANNA,

my decades old COS is a signed contract that in 90's dollars is worth half of what I earn today. Every other major carrier is increasing pay. You want to pay me less of my 1990's dollars.

INFLATION is real. The flat I was renting in 04' now rents for 3 times that amount. Has my housing gone up 3X? No.. it hasn't really moved other than to some HKG peg which in no way represents the real cost.

SCHOOLING has gone up.. What I get covers less each year.

_

Shall i make a large pie chart that shows the cost of the crew vs the fines that were levied against us?

You want to lower housing? Open up bases. Problem solved.

Lower pay?
Start with the board.. ZERO pay. If they don't like, I'm sure we can fine some more competent directors happy to take over on zero money as they made their money elsewhere.

Directors like you.. 1/2 your packages. Money where your mouth is. Do it.

This is it. There's nothing more to say really. We draw the line here or there is nothing left to stay for in HK. Want cheaper pilots? BASES!!! Most of us (expats) are willing to work for less, IN OUR HOME COUNTRIES!!! What is so hard to understand about that? I don't get it. Resolve rostering as part of CMP negotiations, put HKPA up to livable wages, end the training ban/CC, and get the bases growing. Any sensible company would utilize a win/win like based pilots, but not CX. They are different and special. "You just don't understand..." That's right AT and DP, we don't understand because IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

[TimeToWhine]

Here's the real chart that should have been published!
https://ibb.co/e7turv

[Start Fore]

Bases? No, you see, it's a 'control' thing old chap. They've realised they've lost their beloved control of the bases with the emergence of first world onshoring.

Scares the :mad: out of them.

[cxorcist]

Well, their financial problems must not be that bad then.

[pill]

Can we all agree, it's incompetence, not control. Of late, they couldn't organise a beer in a brothel.

[Bob Hawke]

Or even a screw in a hardware store..

[goathead]

I would just like to thank in advance our esteemed colleagues in the training department whom will be shortly training up my replacement 🙏

[Shep69]

Can we all agree, it's incompetence, not control. Of late, they couldn't organise a beer in a brothel.

Nope; incompetence implies a bumbling quality without knowledge or foresight.

These folks have plenty of education (for what that's worth) and have been given all kinds of sage advice as to how to right the ship. Folks have even called pitfalls and blunders before they've happened and suggested ways to fix problems.

It's been ignored.

I believe that's usually called willful or culpable negligence in most places. And there's been a strong degree of proactivity in alienating people and proactivity in destroying things that have been working. These decisions didn't just happen; they were imposed after deliberation.

You can kinda forgive ineptitude; some poor slob trying his or her best and just not making it.

But willful negligence is something different entirely.

Kinda like in your example--you're going out for a night at the brothel. You run into one of your friends and announce your intentions.

He (or she) says "That's great--hope you have a wonderful time. Pick any hooker except Tiffany; I know for a fact she has the clap and here's a copy the last medical inspection which was done and proves it."

"OK"

Your friend later asks "How was the big night ?"

"Well, not so good--I went with this girl named Tiffany and got the clap."

<facepalm>

[raven11]

Can we please end this farce called High Performance Engagement and Colaborative Problem solving?

Firstly, the day before the process began they announce two second officers per flight; now in the middle of the negotiations they announce massive pay cuts....but do it in a kind voice, asking that we accept the cuts, in a "collaborative" spirit....

Walk away.

[Trafalgar]

To the GC: The company has violated any sense of impartiality regarding HPE by releasing this letter in the middle of these sham negotiations. It's time to walk away, and ballot the membership for an increase of CC. This company's management is not fit for purpose.

[1200firm]

Ramp it up. All trainers to quit. CC during typhoons, black rain, etc

[betpump5]

You guys are livng in the shadows if you think the GC led by this soft DS will ramp anything up. We need a wartime leader and that is RF.

[LongTimeInCX]

Betpump, so true.
RF was a worry for the company, as he was consistent, logical, very measured, and smart.

That's why I query whether the membership is smart enough to resist the forthcoming company begging bowl in one hand and gun in the other.
After all, DS managed to hoodwink a good many of the membership to vote for him. What does that say about our collective smarts in being able to counter CX who already have all the steps in their playbook written down, rehearsed and put into play.

Having been here 30 years, they are predictable in their methods. They already know where they will end up, the current HPE and subsequent letter from AT are just pre-amble, conditioning, expectation management that follows the usual and predictable approach.

They'll have the usual press releases, we've cut management positions, everyone else is pay frozen, pilots earn $blah$, we'd like them to help pull the company through these lean times. All designed to remove any public support for the pilots.

Wouldn't surprise me if as part of the ARAPA dismantling, CX choose to provide some HKPA incentive for those signing on to C&T in an attempt to revive the negligible (bar ADL/AKL questionables) training captain applicants.

Stand by for smoke & mirrors mixed with divide & conquer mixed with a little old fashioned Swire arrogance in the very near future.


And bar having a sizeable team of forensic accountants going through the company and group records, I would treat any minor 3rd party accountant just being given a glimpse of the few areas the company wish to show, with a great deal of suspicion.

Remember, once the finite fuel hedging losses are over, by 2018/19, the core business is still, and should continue to make a profit.

Smoke & mirrors!

[Oasis]

Is this shot across the bow consistent within current talk guidelines?

No comment yet from the AOA, not even a sentiment, it must have been a surprise.

If this was the end-game, what is the rebuttal being worked on by the AOA?
Why isn't KA getting lumped into this as we are one big family now?
Why is the burden on the HKG based guys/gals?
What about opening more bases if the HKG base is so expensive?

With a management this f-ed up, we should be happy this airline survives.

[Dan Winterland]

Apparently, because of the pilot shortage, pilot's pay is going up!

Does your job pay less than it did five years ago? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40756834)

[goathead]

Longtime has hit the nail on the head.
DS needs to resign/step aside immediately, if he's not fit to be at work the question needs to be asked if he's fit to be at the helm of the AOA , right now with this NUKE that has just launched .And the same goes for any other members of the GC who are presently ' U '.
Perhaps RF can fill a gap in the GC pronto.

[betpump5]

Agreed 100%. DS needs to step down. Rod is needed during this time of war. The way DS was voted in, and the sh1t show that happened behind the scenes was a disgrace.

[1200firm]

Yep....the vote was bogus alright. PV endorsed the fake candidate, GF, in a very public newsletter, thus dividing the vote, and DS slid in. Remember that?
It will be remembered in years to come as the biggest mistake in HKAOA history.

[cxorcist]

Yep....the vote was bogus alright. PV endorsed the fake candidate, GF, in a very public newsletter, thus dividing the vote, and DS slid in. Remember that?
It will be remembered in years to come as the biggest mistake in HKAOA history.

So GF was the Ross Perot and DS is Bill Clinton. As they say, elections have consequences.

[corrigin]

Yep....the vote was bogus alright. PV endorsed the fake candidate, GF, in a very public newsletter, thus dividing the vote, and DS slid in. Remember that?
It will be remembered in years to come as the biggest mistake in HKAOA history.

EXACTLY!
How that was allowed without any repercussion against PV is beyond my understanding.

[betpump5]

It will be remembered in years to come as the biggest mistake in HKAOA history.


And people fell for it. That's what's worrying me when it comes to any future TA.

[Start Fore]

Time for a recruitment ban.

That's the next step in my opinion.

[goathead]

A recruitment ban !

I almost spat my coffee!

The real elephant in the room
SSI's and Trainers
Are trainers the only trick left in the book ? Yes . Will they throw it in ? Hell no.
We are done, brace for the pineapple.

[betpump5]

Recruitment ban "kinda" worked when we only took experienced guys who "kinda" understood the spirit of why a recruitment ban was taking place (of course some ignored it).

Doubt the new breed will understand the sentiment.

[mrfox]

And what happened to all the ban breakers who joined during the last ban? Most are now Captains with a 2 year seniority lead over those who respected the ban.
Fooled me once.

[Dan Winterland]

Exactly Ken. Strange that when during a worldwide pilot shortage and pilot pay going up, CX think it a good idea to reduce pay. Morale is already rock bottom and if only a quarter of the pilots who are talking about leaving actually do, then aircraft are going to be parked. There are a lot of jobs out there.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Exactly Ken. Strange that when during a worldwide pilot shortage and pilot pay going up, CX think it a good idea to reduce pay. Morale is already rock bottom and if only a quarter of the pilots who are talking about leaving actually do, then aircraft are going to be parked. There are a lot of jobs out there.


Except in the end nobody will actually leave.

[IDS]

Who suggested a recruitment ban??? Last time that was in place I honored it, only to find out later that guys were happily joining no matter what. Get lost.

[Freehills]

The DFO is correct when she points out that 2,379 firm orders for wide and narrow body aircraft are to be delivered to Asia Pacific operators between 2017 and 2021.
Who is going to fly them?
WE ARE !!! (Possibly).
Just not for Cathay Pacific (perhaps).
By consistently alienating their own pilots, all CX is doing is training the next generation of aircrew for their own competitors.
I am very concerned that any recovery at CX will be endangered by threatening the very staff they will rely upon to keep the merry go round turning. How much help do they expect when all they do is threaten, intimidate and denigrate the aircrew in company communications and in the press?

Yes - the correct response to this is "I'm not worried Anna, I have an internationally recognised license of considerable value. More aircraft, more jobs, more dollars. What's your backup plan?"

[Dan Winterland]

Except in the end nobody will actually leave.

You reckon? Not sure about CX. But KA is trying to expand and people are leaving as fast as they are being recruited. Morale is low and many are looking at alternatives. And the attitude from the new C-scalers is to accept the free rating and see if they like it. If they don't, or can't manage on the already mediocre ts and Cs, they leave. Several have - one just a month after completing his command course. As for the B scalers, the only thing keeping them here is their lifestyle. Mess with that and there will be quite a number who will go.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Why we are still talking is baffling! I do not blame the HPE comittee..... but the leadership. While we have been talking, the company has gone on a PR campaign against us, made two SO's on flight ok, continued to bully us and tell us we are the problem, made healthcare worse, and the list goes on.... We have done nothing but send members letters telling us how wonderful the HPE process is. WHAT??? Head in the sand approaches rarely turn out well.

DS, when he ran for chairman said he would like to be like the chairman we had when SLS and COS 08 came out. That was truly an appalling time for me. Guys were able to work to 65, delaying my command. Meanwhile, friends of mine signed over to COS 08 because the company wanted them to (and the union blessed it due to 25 year housing being written in stone). Now, those friends have either lost out on two years of BPP, or are currently missing out on BPP....... and they still have/had their commands deferred.

I've heard the plan is to get rid of expensive pilots, and then hire DEC's again, due to the inexperience level of the younger generation. Why wouldn't they if they can push through everything else they want to with the young bucs. They only need to look at the history of CX pilots to figure out how crappy this company can be.

We are in the midst of making a decision. I think that decision needs to be to retract the thumb and extend the middle finger. That is how we are being treated. However, we need not turn the other cheek, and throw the dung right back at her!

Time to grow a set of balls!

[Trafalgar]

Spot on. Thank you for a clear and convincing post. Your first paragraph summed it up. Time to respond to this appalling management with a fist.

[PanZa-Lead]

Us old hands have seen this before. She has got the HK public on her side with the SCMP article and now she has the Cathay staff on her side with the latest Friday news. We are always one step behind and don't have a hope in hell

[Mr Angry from Purley]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/59307-cathay-pacific-urges-pilots-pay-freeze-after-poor-1h-results

[Average Fool]

Indeed the changes DO need to come quickly.

Before the fuel hedges expire and profits soar.

[FUANNA]

The current chairman is part of the problem, and not its solution.

He needs to step aside asap.

[goathead]

Its like watching the same car crash movie over and over again
That's what happens when you have a gen sec on his dream retirement roadshow
A Guileless pilot community
A sympathetic President NOT UP TO THE MISSION ahead
And once again in advance i would like to thank the SSI's and Training community who will be shortly training my replacement 👍

[Trafalgar]

Completely agree

[hyg]

Us old hands have seen this before. She has got the HK public on her side with the SCMP article and now she has the Cathay staff on her side with the latest Friday news. We are always one step behind and don't have a hope in hell


not on the chinese media.... lots of public comments are about them screwing up the fuel hedging and asking staff to pay

[OK4Wire]

Yes indeed, Dan. '94 and '99 enforced that principle for me, for ever.

[raven11]

That's my plan too.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Not really asking. Forcing is more accurate. But remember, according to HK law you can only accept a degradation to your contract if you agree and sign to it. One thing I've learnt over my years here-SIGN NOTHING.

If you don't sign anything the current housing deal simply expires.

[PanZa-Lead]

My lease is expiring in November at my furnished 2 bedroom plus study apartment in Kowloon. I have asked to extend it for another two years but have been refused. I have been told by the building's management that Cathay's new housing will only afford me a one bedroom furnished apartment. Guess they know something we don't. Good luck to all those pilots that have to renew your lease soon

[Despot75]

I just renewed for 2 years at 102,000.......so I guess your landlord is telling porkies.

[cxorcist]

I just renewed for 2 years at 102,000.......so I guess your landlord is telling porkies.

Nice one Despot! Love to see how CX will get out of that one.

[ANTIPHOLUS]

They'll get out of it by not paying it. Despot has signed the rental agreement; not CX and that's the whole crux of the matter.

[PanZa-Lead]

Despot

You have just signed already. My lease is up end of November. Guess my landlord might not be telling porkie pies

[ANTIPHOLUS]

A venal mendacious Hong Kong landlord. Unheard of. The fact is you can sign what you want. Whether they agree to reimburse anywhere near that sum in the future is the issue.

[Strewth]

Swires ka-ching! (https://www.standard.co.uk/business/swires-cash-in-despite-cathay-pacific-turmoil-a3635821.html) Standard 150917

[Trafalgar]

I'm shocked...SHOCKED..... :ooh:

[flyhardmo]

From the article

"However, revenues at the UK-based holding company, chaired by billionaire businessman Barnaby Swire and led by chief executive Merlin Swire, rose to nearly £8 billion from £7 billion."

Perhaps by cashing in on a fuel hedge?????

[Trafalgar]

Unless the company if forthcoming with this information, there should be NO negotiations entered into regarding the overall financial health of CX. What is the point of discussing the issue if the company won't divulge the facts. Might as well be in a boxing ring, with a blindfold on.....and one arm tied behind your back.

[Progress Wanchai]

If you don't sign anything the current housing deal simply expires.


Simply incorrect.
The current ARAPA deal expires, or is rolled over or is paid as cash as per 2002-2004 when the last ARAPA deal expired.

The housing deal is perpetual.

[Trafalgar]

The clause in our COS that pertains to a 'market driven' costing is problematic for CX, as the current ARAPA deal was designed (by CX i might add) to achieve that very thing. Therefore, any lessening of the current amount of housing for ARAPA recipients is by association violating that clause in the COS.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Unless the company if forthcoming with this information, there should be NO negotiations entered into regarding the overall financial health of CX. What is the point of discussing the issue if the company won't divulge the facts. Might as well be in a boxing ring, with a blindfold on.....and one arm tied behind your back.

What negotiations? When did the company ever negotiate with us?

[raven11]

Traf you raise a good point, namely that they simply can't violate your COS, without your consent. The housing clause in our COS requires them to provide housing assistance that satisfies a "market driven" costing. Well, any sentient being would see through any attempt by them to argue that the current Hong Kong housing market justifies a reduction in assistance, much less the massive reduction they dream about. That's not to say that they won't try.

What leverage can they try and deploy that will force you to attach your signature to a new COS with more work for a reduction of pay and benefits? I don't expect them to deploy their sign or be fired arguement. I think they would be ridiculled publicly for trying that again. So what will they try and argue to force you to sign a new COS that will have you work even more for less?

-sign or you will never be eligible for a base.
-sign or you will never be promoted.
-sign the new COS and receive a small bump in HKPA, with back pay for several months.
-sign the new COS with reduced ARAPA, or keep your current COS with a massively reduced ARAPA....and never get a base.

It will then be up to each individual to weigh the cost benefit of not signing and the possibility of never getting a base or promotion....

The Company is weighing what they think they can get away with and how gullible they think we, and the public, might be.

[Progress Wanchai]

Traf you raise a good point, namely that they simply can't violate your COS, without your consent. The housing clause in our COS requires them to provide housing assistance that satisfies a "market driven" costing. Well, any sentient being would see through any attempt by them to argue that the current Hong Kong housing market justifies a reduction in assistance, much less the massive reduction they dream about. That's not to say that they won't try.

What leverage can they try and deploy that will force you to attach your signature to a new COS with more work for a reduction of pay and benefits? I don't expect them to deploy their sign or be fired arguement. I think they would be ridiculled publicly for trying that again. So what will they try and argue to force you to sign a new COS that will have you work even more for less?

-sign or you will never be eligible for a base.
-sign or you will never be promoted.
-sign the new COS and receive a small bump in HKPA, with back pay for several months.
-sign the new COS with reduced ARAPA, or keep your current COS with a massively reduced ARAPA....and never get a base.

It will then be up to each individual to weigh the cost benefit of not signing and the possibility of never getting a base or promotion....

The Company is weighing what they think they can get away with and how gullible they think we, and the public, might be.



But here's the conundrum that management face raven.
Our current contracts 99/08 already have clauses for bases, promotion etc. So I'm guessing COS17 will have a new clause;
"CX promises that despite the fact that they will ignore previous contractual agreements, we promise on our philanthropic hearts to abide by all clauses in this new contract."

What's the point in signing any contract with an organization that doesn't believe in honoring them? All you've done is given yourself a pay cut for a benefit you already had.

[raven11]

Progress Wanchai
I completely agree...

[Trafalgar]

Wanch. You have hit the nail on the proverbial head: what is the point of negotiating a contract with a group of venal managers who then will refuse to honour the terms of said contract as and when it suits them. As you said, all you will be doing is giving up pay and benefits for something you already have, for the guaranteed expectation that they will then violate the new contract at a later date anyway (as an example, CX hired me on A scale, promised me a 'wonderful career' and that I was 'valued' and 'respected'...we all now know what a load of crap those promises have become). That is why there is NO point dealing with these people. They are dishonorable, deceitful and malicious. The ONLY thing they understand is force. They are trying to apply that to us.....I suggest WE apply that to them. We have NOTHING to lose.

[Trafalgar]

Another question: why is it only US that has to adhere to our contract terms? Why is the management not beholden to the same standard? Why can they decide to change our terms as and when they like, regardless of the law, contract terms or even common decency and morality? I say they can't and they shan't. They can try, but we can and will hurt them back in every way we can. If they want to cost me and my family money, then they can be assured that the same policy will be directed right back at them. I seem to recall seeing two rows of shiny jets parked at the airport back in 1999, when a really awful 'flu' virus struck HK. I hear the same bug is floating around once again.

[BubbaJ]

We really need to start a SIGN NOTHING Campaign to be unified in this upcoming debacle.

Dan

If you know people in the right places and qualify you should already be part of said group

Pm me and I'll invite you

[Sam Ting Wong]

Sign nothing?

May I offer an example to show the problem with that?

Imagine you live in a rental. Your contract expires. Your landlord is asking for 10% more rent in order to renew the lease.You tell him I will sign nothing. He tells you, no problem, please hand me the keys on the first.

Not signing caused this mess in the first place, and not signing a second time won't be the solution either.

[Bob Hawke]

STW what the hell are you chewin' on buddy - it's a completely different issue, what a P155 poor example. Try again.

[cxorcist]

Sign nothing?

May I offer an example to show the problem with that?

Imagine you live in a rental. Your contract expires. Your landlord is asking for 10% more rent in order to renew the lease.You tell him I will sign nothing. He tells you, no problem, please hand me the keys on the first.

Not signing caused this mess in the first place, and not signing a second time won't be the solution either.

STW just highlighted the problem with his own thinking... retardation. It's scary that he is allowed anywhere near a cockpit. Having flown with him, I can tell you nothing reassuring. I sure hope the Company is on to him and that RQ is a long ways off still.

[raven11]

STW???

The context of the suggestion to not signing is one in which you refuse to sign your acceptance to a degradation in your current conditions of service...as opposed to voting yes or no on a union motion regarding a negotiated agreement which contains a raise in pay and conditions. Spot the difference?

If the vast majority of us don't sign whatever company "proposal" (read degradation to your COS) is in the works then whatever that "proposal" is (read degradation to your COS), the "proposal" (read degradation to your COS) will not affect those that don't sign.

Understand?

[Freehills]

Sign nothing?

May I offer an example to show the problem with that?

Imagine you live in a rental. Your contract expires. Your landlord is asking for 10% more rent in order to renew the lease.You tell him I will sign nothing. He tells you, no problem, please hand me the keys on the first.

Not signing caused this mess in the first place, and not signing a second time won't be the solution either.

Eh? If we are coming up with completely irrelevant examples - can I play?

Imagine you live in a house. You are having something delivered. Your courier is asking you to sign for delivery. .You tell him I will sign nothing. He tells you, no problem, and doesn't give you the item

Not signing caused this mess in the first place, and not signing a second time won't be the solution either.

[Shep69]

Eh? If we are coming up with completely irrelevant examples - can I play?

Imagine you live in a house. You are having something delivered. Your courier is asking you to sign for delivery. .You tell him I will sign nothing. He tells you, no problem, and doesn't give you the item

Not signing caused this mess in the first place, and not signing a second time won't be the solution either.

Yeah....perhaps it is a bit of a ridiculous example.

But maybe not so irrelevant.

If you DID buy and arrange to have something delivered, you would likely have signed some form of sales contract, or done so under terms and conditions delineated by the seller (in the store, on a website, etc.). Absent these there are uniform commercial codes and laws in the particular jurisdiction.

Not everyone reads these in full, so many of these entities (including websites) say "signature required for delivery" or "adult signature required for delivery", etc. such that the terms are clearly understood. So, these terms had been previously agreed.

And if you refused to sign on delivery, these would be the basis of what happens next. Perhaps it would be the deliverer simply drops off the item, noting the time and place and person contacted, and writes "signature refused." Or perhaps these terms and conditions require you to sign for delivery (which you would have agreed when you bought whatever it is you bought under the original sales terms or contract) and the deliverer doesn't give it to you without signing.

The key here is that you previously had agreed the terms and if the terms are ambiguous it defers to prevailing law.

Now, how about the case where an inferior set of terms are presented later. This would be exactly like the delivery person saying "sign here--oh yeah, there's a 1000 dollar delivery charge add on." (that you didn't agree to and wasn't in the original terms and conditions).

I don't know anyone who would sign something like that. And the seller would still be on the hook to deliver the goods as promised under the original terms.

[Sqwak7700]

Guys, the ever lasting single post count of STW should remind you that he is a troll.

Don't feed the troll. Just ignore and continue the discussion.

[flyboy007]

Eh? If we are coming up with completely irrelevant examples - can I play?

Imagine you live in a house. You are having something delivered. Your courier is asking you to sign for delivery even though he forgot one of the items and, you suspect, won't be coming back with it once you've signed. You tell him I will sign nothing until I have the complete package. He tells you, no problem, and doesn't give you the item. He returns the next day with the complete package as ordered. You sign.

Not signing fixed this mess.

[Uberskyjockey]

Despite the company's stance that any new terms will be negotiated, the new pilot contracts have been cited being printed secretly at night in CX City.