FILLING THE RANKS

[BEagle]

An interesting report, which highlights the parlous state of Armed Forces recruiting: https://www.markfrancois.com/sites/www.markfrancois.com/files/2017-09/Filling%20the%20Ranks%20-%20Report%20on%20the%20State%20of%20Recruiting%20into%20the% 20United%20Kingdom%20Armed%20Forces%20-%20by%20the%20Rt%20Hon%20Mark%20Francois%20MP%2026.07.17.pdf

The Regular strength of the UK Armed Forces is currently 138,350, 4.8% below the required number (liability). In the year to April 2017, 12,950 people joined the UK Regular Armed Forces but in the same period 14,970 left.

A combination of lower retention than expected and failure to achieve recruiting targets means this under manning is worsening and indeed has been for some time. The Royal Navy and the RAF are now running at around 10% short of their annual recruitment target, whilst for the Army the shortfall is over 30%. Constant pressure on recruiting budgets has only compounded the difficulty.

:uhoh:

[Wrathmonk]

Doesn't surprise me - all you read on specialist military aviation themed forum boards these days is posts on how life in the RAF isn't a patch on the good old days.;)

Some great soundbites....

There is a higher penetration of female officers at senior rank than for their BAME equivalents in the Armed Forces.

And the liberal snowflakes are going to love this one (quote not related to the one above!):

One way to address this would be to make the role of the Armed Forces a part of the national curriculum, so that every child leaving school will have at least a basic understanding of our Armed Forces and the role they play defending our nation.

[Heathrow Harry]

We could just pay them more....................

[brakedwell]

How do you penetrate female officers at senior rank :E


What happened to plain english?

[Melchett01]

As per para 7, 'retention issues are formally beyond the scope of this report', or words to that effect.

And there in a nut shell lies a goodly part of the problem. Recruit all you like, but if you can't get people to stay, or aren't flexible enough to keep people who are past certain ages or who are professional but not competitive for promotion, then you've only answered half the question.

[MPN11]

How do you penetrate female officers at senior rank :E
Never managed higher than flt lt, until I married a successful one ;)

[Training Risky]

As per para 7, 'retention issues are formally beyond the scope of this report', or words to that effect.

And there in a nut shell lies a goodly part of the problem. Recruit all you like, but if you can't get people to stay, or aren't flexible enough to keep people who are past certain ages or who are professional but not competitive for promotion, then you've only answered half the question.

I have always thought that, no matter how bad recruitment got, it is always better in the bean-counters' eyes to let experienced flt lts go at the 16/38 point and replace them with APOs who may cost a fraction of the salary/pension but occupy the same space with a bit of TRG. That must be why assimilation is so rare.

How are you Melchy?!;)

[gr4techie]

The problem is the bean counters do not differentiate between bums on seats and suitably qualified and experienced personnel (SQEP).
They could recruit tons of spotty kids fresh out of school, but they won't know what they're doing for years. You can't beat experience for fault finding complex systems. On one aircraft type they reckon SQEP takes an additional two years on a Sqn after all training courses.
What would happen when they can't retain the SQEP? Cancel flying to have maintenance days ?
The problems could include constant ops in a main operating base and our lads and lasses still get **** accommodation and sub standard food not fit for purpose.

[Blacksheep]

The Regular strength of the UK Armed Forces is currently 138,350,There were 155,000 in the Royal Air Force alone when I joined. Our commitments "East of Suez" were drawn down in 1971 and that was an excuse to downsize the armed forces - but hang on a minute: aren't Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan East of Suez? Never mind, we don't need all those soldiers in Germany now that we're Best Friends with Russia, eh? and the world is such a peaceful place now, with all potential enmities sorted and no chance of a war breaking out anywhere, why do we need any armed forces at all?

[Bigbux]

It's those pesky Beancounters again. I would have thought that with the RAF being run by senior Aircrew and Engineers who can do big sums, they would have been able to identify who these people are and put an end to their infernal meddling.

[Crromwellman]

I don't suppose the situation will get any better when the bean counters have decided to lift the 1% cap on public sector pay for those "essential and valuable" people. who will be the ones at the back of the queue? Because they are not unionised and "there are no votes in defence" I offer three guesses but only one will be needed. Some of us are old and crusty enough to remember the fireman's strike when they pulled the Green Godesses out and the media discovered that the fireman were striking for a rise that was greater than a Private soldiers total salary. Oh boy did the proverbial hit the low tech air conditioning device!! Unfortunately it takes such a crisis and for the politicians and bureaucrats to see votes disappearing down the pan to concentrate their minds and something gets done. Until then the Forces will continue to bleed manpower faster than it can recruit/retain them and will become a uniformed training organisation where people sign on to get their qualifications and then go. Rant Over and Out.

[Bigbux]

Perhaps we should recruit more Chinese personnel. They don't seem to have a problem.

[ian16th]

Some of us are old and crusty enough to remember the fireman's strike when they pulled the Green Godesses out and the media discovered that the fireman were striking for a rise that was greater than a Private soldiers total salary.

And lots of Squadies found out, quit the army as soon as they could to do the easier job for more money.

[gr4techie]

And lots of Squadies found out, quit the army as soon as they could to do the easier job for more money.


I wonder how many PVR'd to become firemen?

[superplum]

It's those pesky Beancounters again. I would have thought that with the RAF being run by senior Aircrew and Engineers who can do big sums, they would have been able to identify who these people are and put an end to their infernal meddling.

Shouldn't that be "senior Aircrew, and Engineers who can do big sums,"?
:confused:

[Rigga]

I feel that the lack of pay isn't the whole thing of leaving - or joining, for that matter!

The great and good of HMG and MOD have, through the systematic withdrawal of perks, privileges, pay and prospects, inevitably turned the former armed forces "Career" into a "job" that people quickly become bored with.

Add to that, the extremely slow promotion path of the RAF ground trades and lack of recognition for jobs with responsibilities and you have the almost perfect formula for driving people out as soon as they possibly can.

What's worse is that the armed forces are now perceived as a low paid job that can regularly put you in danger of being shot, in an unfriendly place too...nothing like the computer games at all!

Finally, I believe all this comes from people at HMG, living in the Chelsea/Notting Hill bubble and having never served in the forces or never had a proper 'career' before moving into politics - i.e. today's professional politicians and the pseudo politicians in MOD.

[charliegolf]

I feel that the lack of pay isn't the whole thing of leaving - or joining, for that matter!

The great and good of HMG and MOD have, through the systematic withdrawal of perks, privileges, pay and prospects, inevitably turned the former armed forces "Career" into a "job" that people quickly become bored with.

Add to that, the extremely slow promotion path of the RAF ground trades and lack of recognition for jobs with responsibilities and you have the almost perfect formula for driving people out as soon as they possibly can.

What's worse is that the armed forces are now perceived as a low paid job that can regularly put you in danger of being shot, in an unfriendly place too...nothing like the computer games at all!

Finally, I believe all this comes from people at HMG, living in the Chelsea/Notting Hill bubble and having never served in the forces or never had a proper 'career' before moving into politics - i.e. today's professional politicians and the pseudo politicians in MOD.

... agree, and to add: young people are not as stupid as we'd like to think. Whilst serving one's country is still admirable, potential recruits who can read have a plethora of media links which are analysing every overseas dabble we get into. All the gory details are there in glorious technicolour. They are thinking, "Well Iraq was a cock-up, look at the outcome- Afghanistan, same. I would willingly protect my country, but I'm not dying for a politician's ego."

I've had such discussions with potential recruits.

CG

[[email protected]]

The great and good of HMG and MOD have, through the systematic withdrawal of perks, privileges, pay and prospects, inevitably turned the former armed forces "Career" into a "job" that people quickly become bored with
Yes, crap IT - DII is a disgrace and Modnet won't be any better, the introduction of JPA to really discourage people from claiming their entitlements and PAYD (the biggest failure of all leading to poor quality, poor choice and poor service) are 3 of the main degradations to service life that help people make their decision to leave.

Add in the pension restructuring and changing flying pay to retention pay that takes forever to qualify for and you have some pretty good reasons for life in uniform being far less attractive than it was.

And don't get me started on boarding school allowance or the appalling maintenance of MQs and public buildings......

[Lyneham Lad]

All well and good to highlight the conditions today - but how was Service life (all ranks) in for example, the mid-1930s (budget constraint-wise, reluctance to spend on new programmes etc etc) as a comparison?

[Crromwellman]

Lyneham Lad - All well and good to highlight the conditions today - but how was Service life (all ranks) in for example, the mid-1930s (budget constraint-wise, reluctance to spend on new programmes etc etc) as a comparison?

All well and good to suggest comparison but what about comparing where it all led to? A major conflict with totally unprepared Armed Forces thet took nearly three years to bring up to speed - we won't have the time if it happens again

[WilliumMate]

I was working down Pompey way yesterday and was talking to a lad who had left the Andrew as a Chief Tiff two days before at the age of 36. Off to work for a local defence company with an instant payrise of 45%. Asked if he thought he would miss life in a blue suit he said he would miss his oppos but likened service today to working for the local council. Too many bosses, not enough troops, budget constraints, petty bureaucracy, empire building. Waterfront Manning came in for particular criticism.

Takes a long time to replace a Chief Tiffs experience.

[gr4techie]

CPO (equivalent to Flight Sergeant ) by the age of 36.
Must have quick promotion in the Navy.
Makes me wonder what's the incentive to be certain trades in the RAF?

[Blacksheep]

The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]

[gr4techie]

The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]

Blacksheep. We no longer get accelerated time promotion.
Unless you're air traffic control or a nurse.

[The Oberon]

The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the RAF we also trained for three years and while most of us managed to graduate as Junior Technicians (Able Seaman) with accelerated promotion to Corporal (Leading Seaman), it took another four years to make Sergeant. So, as you point out gr4techie , the RAF got us on the cheap. [At least we never got seasick and slept in a bed every night.]

I have had this discussion before over promotion speed but with the technical branches of the Army. I don't know about the RN but the Army speed up the ladder was dictated by most of them having to leave at age 40. This meant that to give the high flyers chance to get to WO1 by retirement they were promoted quicker than the RAF who, barring acts of god, could stay until they were 55.

As a normal graduate, I passed out from Locking as an 18 year old J/T, Cpl. at 21, SGT. at 25 and Chf/Tech. at 30. Theoretically this gave me 7 years to "get my crown", I didn't, but there were some that did. There were a handful of brainy ones who passed out as 18 year old Cpl.s and were Chf/Tech.s at 27 and easily made Flt/Sgt by their mid 30s.

[WilliumMate]

The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.
As I remember it. It wasn't unusual to see PO Tiffys without a good conduct badge (four years of undiscovered crime) and Chief Tiffys well below 30 years of age. Someone once suggested that, if they had one, their specialist badge should incorporate a hammock. Can't think why.

:E

[Bigbux]

Shouldn't that be "senior Aircrew, and Engineers who can do big sums,"?
:confused:


Give yourself a "qss". Well done.

[BEagle]

The 'Oxford comma' is incorrect with only 2 items conjoined.

To avoid ambiguity, if the desired sentence needs to indicate that it is only engineers who can 'do big sums', although both aircrew and engineers are senior, I would recommend 'Senior engineers, who can do big sums, and senior aircrew'. In this form, the commas are used in parenthesis, so the comma appearing before 'and' is probably acceptable.

PS - I never did idiot scribblers' school! Nor the 'C' exam, for that matter!

[Haraka]

Beags. I read the sentence as implying " Senior Aircrew, and those Engineers who can do big sums"

But having been neither........

[Lyneham Lad]

Lyneham Lad - All well and good to highlight the conditions today - but how was Service life (all ranks) in for example, the mid-1930s (budget constraint-wise, reluctance to spend on new programmes etc etc) as a comparison?

All well and good to suggest comparison but what about comparing where it all led to? A major conflict with totally unprepared Armed Forces thet took nearly three years to bring up to speed - we won't have the time if it happens again

Which was the aim of my post - i.e. what followed the 1930's hollowing out of the Services.
(My post underlined for clarity).

[Melchett01]

Perhaps we should recruit more Chinese personnel. They don't seem to have a problem.

That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/24/too-fat-for-pla.php

Training Risky,

I think you're right and it's a sense I've had for a while now of a deliberate attempt to shift the demographic of all the Services from experienced wafighters to young, cheap and disposable labourers in uniform - think a military version of Primark (if my young teen cousin's description of Primark is accurate I should add!). So not only numerically smaller but also shallower in terms of experience, but crucially for the Treasury (as its their opinion that matters) cheaper in terms of both pay and pensions. Their ability to do more than one turn of a handle or grow that experience in to a credible war fighting capability is a happy coincidence should it occur.

(Other than that, I'm doing fine, seemed to have slipped through the net and am still rolling my eyes at some of the questionable decisions but it keeps me from having to work for a living!)

Edited to add now I've read to the bottom of the thread - Rigga & CharlieGolf, you have definitely highlighted a big part of the problem. We don't join the Forces to chase the big money, so if you take away the other aspects that attract people in the first place of course they will walk. And this goes exactly to my point of recruiting being only part of the solution if politicians want a capable and competent military, capable of winning wars at short notice when they screw up.

[superplum]

The 'Oxford comma' is incorrect with only 2 items conjoined.

To avoid ambiguity, if the desired sentence needs to indicate that it is only engineers who can 'do big sums', although both aircrew and engineers are senior, I would recommend 'Senior engineers, who can do big sums, and senior aircrew'. In this form, the commas are used in parenthesis, so the comma appearing before 'and' is probably acceptable.

PS - I never did idiot scribblers' school! Nor the 'C' exam, for that matter!

Basic error there,, engineers never come before aircrew. I had a "qss" - I think it's somewhere in the garages.
:cool:

[turbroprop]

Yes they do..

Did not Lord T set up the technical training with the start of the brat scheme, before training for drivers (airframe)!🔧

[ian16th]

The RN trained their Artificer apprentices from scratch and upon graduation they are/were equivalent rank to Navy P.O. or in the other services, Sergeant. I say "were" because the last of the Tiffys passed out of training in 2010.

In the 1950's we had RN guys on courses at Yatesbury, they were technically the equivalent of a J/T, but were P.O.'s and lived in the Sgt's Mess.

The RAF has always under appreciated its technical staff, even though it is very dependent upon them.

[langleybaston]

[QUOTE=Melchett01;9886297]That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
Young Chinese are being rejected by army because they're too fat, masturbate excessively: Shanghaiist (http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/24/too-fat-for-pla.php)

Only 8%?

Now I am worried. What is excessive? Is it too late to stop?

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE=Melchett01;9886297]That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
Young Chinese are being rejected by army because they're too fat, masturbate excessively: Shanghaiist (http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/24/too-fat-for-pla.php)

Only 8%?

Now I am worried. What is excessive? Is it too late to stop?

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.

I know. I shudder to think what the Chinese recruiters would think if they looked over here - I'm sure some units do it competitively.

[Pontius Navigator]

I am reminded of the urban legend that a RN destroyer's crew were secretly ballloted to find the extent of self-abuse. 98% said that they did, and 2% told lies.

Or that other statistic concerning wash basins.

[Melchett01]

Or that other statistic concerning wash basins.

There are no stats there PN, just hard fact. There are those that have used the basin and there are those that have lied about it!

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember, in the 30s, and 60s, you got 3 square a day, free food and accommodation, clothes etc all probably better than civvies and 4/6 weeks leave against 2 and a 6 day week.

For an officer in the 60s you had a barman, in a quarter too, and quarters were often new or less than 30 years old. An officer's quarter was better than the semi I grew up in. The aircraft I flew in were all new. Venerable types such as Varsity and Meteor were less than 10, the Hastings and Anson the oldestc at under 20. We had a future.

[Haraka]

Blimey Pontius ,You had a barman-I only shared a batman!

[Onceapilot]

There are no stats there PN, just hard fact. There are those that have used the basin and there are those that have lied about it!

Must admit, I might have been :yuk: in mine after a few too many! :oh:

OAP

[BEagle]

Must admit, I might have been :yuk: in mine after a few too many! :oh:

After GW1 ended, we still had to fly the odd CAP support AAR trip from KKIA, Riyadh. We were 2 to a room; one night before a morning trip, I was in my pit when my co-pilot blundered in clearly the worse for wear... After some vile noises, the bugger finally dropped off.

Come the morning, I found that not only had he chundered by his bed, he'd also blocked the sink in the same manner. I didn't wake sleeping beauty, the stink of alcohol and chunder was bad enough as it was. After shaving under the shower and getting dressed, I found another (and much better) co-pilot at breakfast who was happy to go flying.

My co-pilot room-mate later bragged about how he'd unblocked the sink with MY toothbrush.


A good job he never found out what I did with his though...:E

[langleybaston]

funny how often the bloke in the next door room "brushes his teeth" at 0300.

If it wakes you, try formation piddling, get the whole wing of the mess at it.

[Bigbux]

[QUOTE=Melchett01;9886297]That won't work Bigbux - apparently the Chinese are finding recruitment equally tricky but blame it on the poor state of recruits due to excessive computer games and masturbation (apparently 8% of cases of med fail)
Young Chinese are being rejected by army because they're too fat, masturbate excessively: Shanghaiist (http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/24/too-fat-for-pla.php)

You've got me really worried now.

"The report follows numerous studies done in recent years which have found that the physical fitness level of Chinese youths is deteriorating at a worrying rate. Earlier this year, one study found that China was home to more obese children than any other country on earth"

When I was a lad there was a common urban myth regarding what would happen if every Chinaman jumped up and down simultaneously. They were fit and athletic then.

[Bigbux]

I never did idiot scribblers' school! Nor the 'C' exam, for that matter!


Good darts, Sir!