Qantas / Jetstar JV

[Deano969]

This is a rumor I overheard from QF management a few weeks ago

Part of the reason for routeing QF1/2 through Singapore is it is the first step in making Singapore a mega hub for both Qantas and Jetstar to Europe

The quirky thing is that Qantas is in negotiation for second hand A380s with low cycles
These A380s will run from Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth through Singapore to various destinations in Europe
However
They will not be entirely Qantas, only the upper deck will be Qantas with the lower deck being leased out to Jetstar

Flight crew will be Qantas along with upstairs cabin crew, with Jetstar responsible for staffing the lower deck
All flights will carry duel flight numbers

Seat configuration is still being decided but Qantas will carry no economy seats upstairs and Jetstar will likely have a 3 class deck below

Qantas and Jetstar will be responsible for filling their respective decks

Secondary ports such as Canberra, Cairns and Darwin are also likely to factor in with A330s again split in the middle being front half Qantas and Jetstar down the back

The idea being, that as patronage grows beyond these 50/50 flights each brand would start flying their own metal on routes as demand dictated

If this does in fact come to pass it could be Alan's greatest moment or biggest mistake
Either way, it is a game changer

[Keg]

Why would they bother? This was suggested back in 2003 immediately after JQ launched. The logic was identical back then- a 'Jetstar class' in the last 15-20 rows of a (say) 767 that wouldn't get any food/ drinks and would have to purchase everything. It was pitched domestically but the same logic applied.

Heck, they could do that now by buying a bunch of extra A330s and running them between SYD/ MEL/ BNE with the back 130 seats being 'Jetstar class'.

So not really a 'game changing' idea. Simply an old idea being revisited.

[ruprecht]

...the first step in making Singapore a mega hub for both Qantas and Jetstar to Europe

Didn't Singapore used to be a hub into Europe for Qantas?

:hmm:

[B772]

The first A380's to be released by SQ are going to Hi Fly of Lisbon so it will be some time before any A380's will be available.

[mickjoebill]

Today, Scoot MEL to Singapore deal A$276, could be combined with an onward flight to LHR on Norwegian air for under A$700, return.

Fare does not include meals and baggage on Scoot.

Royal Brunei have been offering full service sub A$1k fares for a few years.

Where would Jetstar fit into this market?

Used to be that an Aussie backpacker would save for a year to fund a trip to Europe!

Mjb

[RENURPP]

What would be the difference between QF economy and Jetstar? pay for your bags and miss out on a crappy wine/beer? The server is standards are pretty much aligned.

[Deano969]

Word is that the 380s will be ex EK

It's all part of the bigger picture
EK and QF want to dominate flights from Aus to Europe and stifle any potential LCC from entering into the market
On the lower deck Jetstar Asia will also feed into European destinations served by the JV along with onward journeys to Australia ensuring relatively full loads for all sectors

Did you stop to think why Qantas pulled out of Dubai and still kept their deal with Emirates ?

Emirates growth has slowed lately and they still have plenty of 777s and 380s due
Emirates sees only 2 routes from Aus to Europe, via ME and Asia
With code shares on each others flights effectively EK will tie up both routes

Qantas needed a whole lot of convincing to take the plunge into the Singapore mega hub option and behind the scenes EK and QF have negotiated "mates rates" for up to 20 used 380s
Combined with QFs 787 order and expect another 18 to be confirmed about 2 months after Perth-London has started with Qantas citing both UK and USA routes are performing above expectations and they have the metal to make it happen

Qantas has also been green lighted by Emirates on east coast Australia non stop to Europe as Emirates saw it was going to be inevitable at some point, but this way Emirates also gets a piece of the pie...

[crosscutter]

Some manager has a personal vision and we all have to hear about it. Just let this thread die a natural death.

[IsDon]

All pigs fuelled and ready to scramble.

:O

[Keg]

Well it is a rumour network after all.

When the first JV A380 is pushing back from the gate then I'll see it's a done deal. Until that time it's got less than a 1% chance of getting going. In fact it's up there with RedQ in terms of 'idea floating'.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Given that QF management now publicly admits that the N777X will be 43% less fuel, per seat, on average, compared to the A380 (with the B787-8/9 and current B777/A350 also beating the A380 hands down on the same criteria) and the fact that the cost of fuel, even at present prices, is not trivial, I will believe that when I see it.
Tootle pip!!

[Aussie Fo]

Firstly, it's rumour, routing,and dual.

Secondly your idea is absurd, both in its idea and secondly that Qantas management is your source.

Look at where Qantas is today. It has shrunk to being the smallest international footprint in its history. The idea that they would spend any significant money on international aircraft is absurd. They have significant codeshare agreements with Emirates, China Eastern, and American Airlines, all making money. The investment community would run 1000 miles if Qantas were to invest in how many aircraft to operate from each state capital? And A380?

They have 8 787 arriving before the end of next year and that is it, although I accept more of those could be announced shortly.

Qantas of yesteryear will never exist again. I'm talking 5 services a day to London, plus Paris Frankfurt and Rome. The proof is Yay Per LHR .............no more Mel LHR.

I don't disagree but Qantas is about maximising profit and putting everyone else on a code share.

They are a virtual airline, tying people to their operation with Australians infatuation with frequent flyer points, overseas holidays, and the hope of the odd upgrade.

Qantas has 53 (I think ) orders and options for 787s that range out to mid 2025? I can be corrected on that. But in that time 5 747s will leave next year, and the oldest 330s are now 14 years old, and the oldest 737s are 15/16? Granted they may order 777 if it achieves 22 hours flight time. Is Qantas going to be the launch customer, is there going to be a engine manufacturer.

Sorry the last little bit has ended in a rant but I believe Clifford and Joyce will Leave Qantas in the next year without any aircraft on order and both Airbus and Boeings books full. No 737s yes options for the group of A320/321s, most of those Jetstar bound. How old are the 717s ? And the F100s

Qantas will be short of capacity in a growing Asian market. It will loose market share because of the many failings of management.

Rant over

[Ken Borough]

I'm talking 5 services a day to London,

Someone is dreaming! I'm able to remember a max of 3 per day to Heathrow ex Australia. You might get to 5 if the dual flight (not code-share) numbers are included.

[standard unit]

Two via Singapore one via Hong Kong and one via Bangkok.

[Deano969]

Please understand that their thinking is more about cheaply and quickly growing Jetstar into Europe on the back of Qantas
My understanding is that they will gear up to fly
2 x 380s ex Syd
1 x 380 ex Mel
1 x 380 ex Bne
1 x 787 ex Per
1 x 787 ex Adl
All to Singapore
All with 50/50 configuration

2 of the 380s will continue to Lhr
1 of the 380s to Cdg
1 787 to somewhere in Germany
1 787 to Mumbai

Emirates are very involved in this and to a degree are backing it with cheap aircraft

[Rhodes13]

There's one fatal flaw in this argument though. The "20 mates rates 380" from EK aren't owned by them, but rather are leased (much like the vast majority of the EK fleet). So how do you propose EK could gift something to QF that they don't own?

Page 98 on the annual report for 2017
https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/report/annual_report_2017.pdf

[Going Boeing]

Given that Joyce is vehemently opposed to getting any more A380's (stated "over my dead body"), then this rumour has no hope of flying.

The three major obstacles for this are: 1. Excessive fuel burn, 2. Excessive maintenance costs, & 3. Diluting the premium product.

[Deano969]

There's one fatal flaw in this argument though. The "20 mates rates 380" from EK aren't owned by them, but rather are leased (much like the vast majority of the EK fleet). So how do you propose EK could gift something to QF that they don't own?

Page 98 on the annual report for 2017
https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/report/annual_report_2017.pdf

Which is another reason EK is pushing this
EK is having issues with leasing companies willing to finance 380s as there is little to no second hand market for them and those finance the 380s are taking a loss if they are sold for scrap
So the deal takes 20 380s from the scrap heap and keeps them flying for this venture giving EK a better deal on new 380 leases
There is some complex accounting that I don't have the details on, but I can assure you that EK is a big winner on this deal....

[Deano969]

Why would qantas want second hand 380s when they still have 8 brand spankers on order?

Also, mixing JQ and QF pax would be a disaster. Imagine paying good money for a relaxing premium QF service only to have it ruined by the noise and smell of JQ bogans on the same aircraft. 🤧

Perhaps heavy duty curtains have been ordered for the 787s :ok:
As for the 380s, there will be no issues here as the stairs will be removed to allow for extra seating

[ruprecht]

As for the 380s, there will be no issues here as the stairs will be removed to allow for extra seating

At least it will stop the SOs fighting over who gets the upstairs ditching. :rolleyes:

[Derfred]

Not a new idea, but interesting if it is being seriously revisited.

Seat configuration is still being decided but Qantas will carry no economy seats upstairs and Jetstar will likely have a 3 class deck below.

Qantas will carry zero economy? I doubt that.

[ebt]

Deano, EK don't give a stuff about the residuals on A380s, which is why they sell a bunch of them to unsuspecting Korean investors. It is getting harder as they are wording up on residual risk - at least one deal fell apart - but this rumoured deal would do nothing to change that equation. Add to it, the EK A380s that are coming off-lease soon have the wrong engine type and the reconfiguration costs will be HUGE.

Better use of capital would be 787-9s for JQ/3K to go SIN-Europe, but with Norwegian and Scoot playing that game, I can't see it happening.

[Global Aviator]

Yep horse seems to have bolted on Singapore - Europe Low cost.

Jetstar started a few years ago with the 330 we'll not Europe but what a shambles that turned into.

Always wondered why QF or JQ didn't push more through Sing like Enzud with JitCinnict et .

[Deano969]

It begins

EK announced that they will be taking over the vacated QF1 sector that Qantas will vacate to re route through Singapore
This is all part of the deal where EK will have exclusivity on services via the ME with Qantas / Jetstar via Singapore and non stop

3 other points that I have become aware of

1) EK will pull out of Dubai - Asia - Australia and opt for direct flights only and will also vacate trans Tasman services
2) EK and QF are using their combined buying power to help get QF the ULH frame they are seeking
3) EK are seriously looking at taking control Fly Dubai and changing aroung 1/2 of the operation into a Jetstar type LCC while the remainder will be repainted into EK livery so they can open up a whole lot of new smaller destinations to feed into their hub

Watch this space....

[Fuel-Off]

EK will pull out of Dubai - Asia - Australia and opt for direct flights only

Given that those sectors are consistently full of both pax AND freight, I would highly doubt that EK would give up those flights.

EK and QF are using their combined buying power to help get QF the ULH frame they are seeking

Why on Earth would EK want to help another airline purchase aircraft that are capable of completely bypassing their hub to Europe? Part of EK's business model is to have pax doing a stop over in DXB to help bump up the coffers of Dubai Inc.

EK are seriously looking at taking control Fly Dubai and changing aroung 1/2 of the operation into a Jetstar type LCC while the remainder will be repainted into EK livery so they can open up a whole lot of new smaller destinations to feed into their hub

Both EK and FZ are owned by the Dubai Investment Corp. (The Dubai Royal family). What was publicly announced a while ago now, that the two airlines will be seeking 'synergies' in both operations to better compliment eachother. Neither controlling the other and the Chairman has even openly said there will be no take over or merger. Whether there will be painting of aircraft, can't really venture any answers as nothing has been made available on that front either.

Stop sniffing the diesel oil.

Fuel-Off :ok: