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pasir
2nd Sep 2017, 19:21
I am seeking confirmation that JU52's were definitely operating out of Croydon Airport in 1946 via BEA with Railway Air Services under regs.G AHOF and G- AHOC as both issues are absolutely denied by a certain pedantic poster. I realise that some JU's may have been revamped and renamed Jupiters or whatever. I should mention that this particular adversary requires that the 'exact' reference must be applied when discussing what many of us refer to as for instance, a Dakota with its specific reference number or name clearly shown such as C47- DC3 - Sky Train - Gooney Bird - Pionair etc. (Yes I am aware there are certain tech differences). Any info appreciated.

Kieron Kirk
2nd Sep 2017, 21:17
"War Prizes", Phil Butler, Midlands Counties, ISBN 0 904597 86 5.

Page 114 shows photograph of ex.JU 52/3m g8e as the first of the "Jupiter" class at Croydon Airport in BEAC colours as G-AHOC at the inauguration of the London-Liverpool-Belfast service on the 18th November 1946.

Kieron.

Buster11
2nd Sep 2017, 22:34
I certainly recall seeing Ju. 52 G-AHOG at Croydon in around 1946 and that was with BEA, if that's any help.

megan
3rd Sep 2017, 00:50
When he discussed the types of aircraft to be used, the Parliamentary Secretary agreed that we were suffering now, and should suffer for some years to come, from the inevitable neglect of civil aviation during the war. The war time concentration on combat aircraft meant now that there would have to be three stages in the production of civil aircraft. In the first, we should have to rely on the conversion of bombers; in the second, we should be using civil developments of types originally used as military aircraft; but, in the third stage, there would be a complete breakaway from previous designs, and aircraft specifically designed from the outset for civil use would come into operation.

These three stages, and the numbers of aircraft to be used—so far as they were disclosed—are shown in another accompanying table, but it must be appreciated that the "stages " overlap.

Mr. Thomas made the astonishing announcement that Ju 52s would be used on internal routes until suitable British machines were available.https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%200190.html

In November 1946, BEA's first service to Northern Ireland departed Croydon for Belfast (Sydenham) via Liverpool, using an ex-Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 52/3m operated by independent airline Railway Air Services on the fledgling corporation's behalf. The following month, BEA's Belfast operations transferred to Nutts Corner while Dakotas replaced the "Jupiter" class Ju 52s from 1947. BEA's early "Jupiter" class bare metal finish livery at Manchester Ringway on 25 September 1947

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Junkers_Ju52.3m_G-AHOF_BEA_Ringway_25.09.47_edited-2.jpg

All the Ju 52's operated in Britain. Dates of registration to relevant operator, final date is registration cancellation.

G-AHBP Railway Air Services 20-8-46 BEA 1-2-47 2-2-48
G-AHOC Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 1-10-46 2-2-48
G-AHOD Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 19-10-46 2-2-48
G-AHOE Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 14-11-46 2-2-48
G-AHOF Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 26-11-46 2-2-48
G-AHOG Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 22-10-46 2-2-48
G-AHOH Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 12-3-47 2-2-48
G-AHOI Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 28-1-47 2-2-48
G-AHOJ Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 1-3-47 2-2-48
G-AHOK Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 9-1-47 27-1-47 (destroyed)
G-AHOL Ministry of Civil Aviation 21-5-46 BEA 21-12-46 2-2-48

pasir
3rd Sep 2017, 09:32
Thanks everyone for your most helpful replies info and photos. I was a Junior with KLM at Croydon Airport in 46 and would wander around what I feel certain were JU52s in various airline livery but as they may have been revamped and renamed as Toucans CASA Jupiters etc I need to be prepared to have solid info available to answer a most pedantic adversary and I am grateful you have all replied with the info that should settle the score.

One more request. This same person also states categorically that NO DC3
AIRCRAFT OPERATED IN OR OUT OF CROYDON AFTER 1939 . Bearing in mind the many variants or names to muddy the water including C47 - Dakota - Travelair - Skytrain etc - what I need is info clearly designating that DC3's were operating at Croydon after 1939 and through the Post War years.

pasir
3rd Sep 2017, 13:26
Thanks Tagron - The problem being that although there are many reports on DC3 movements in and out of Croydon in the years quoted his argument seems to be that they are ALL WRONG ! He insists they were not DC3's but would have been C47's and other variants of the C47. I don't know if its possible to define a TRUE DC3 but if anyone can confirm with some details or link an 'original' DC3 at Croydon any year from 1940 to its closure date then that's what I am now seeking. Thanks.

DaveReidUK
3rd Sep 2017, 14:29
Thanks Tagron - The problem being that although there are many reports on DC3 movements in and out of Croydon in the years quoted his argument seems to be that they are ALL WRONG ! He insists they were not DC3's but would have been C47's and other variants of the C47. I don't know if its possible to define a TRUE DC3

A DC-3 is a DC-3, and a C-47 is a C-47. The two designations are not interchangeable and every example built is either one or the other.

It's perfectly possible that all those movements were former military C-47s. For example you will see plenty of references to BEA "DC-3"s, but their Pionair and Leopard fleet were in fact civilianised C-47s. It's worth bearing in mind that there have only ever been 20 or so DC-3s on the UK register, but nearly 300 C-47s.

pasir
3rd Sep 2017, 16:01
Yes -I may be asking for the impossible, taking into account that even official and air line company reports over that period often refer to the a/c as DC3's which cannot be relied upon due to their true definition in many instances where they are shown as DC3's could have been of C47/Skytrain or one of the other designations allotted to this type of aircraft.

megan
4th Sep 2017, 03:42
The UK register has the following variants.

16 X DC-3
297 X C-47
3 X C-53
2 X R4D

BEA never owned a DC-3, and BOAC only had two, AGBD and AGEN.

pasir
4th Sep 2017, 05:35
Thanks - Several European airlines operated services at Croydon post 1945 KLM alone had up to 8 DC3's (or were they/C47's ?) daily. What is being alleged is that there were NEVER ANY DC3's at Croydon after 1939. The inference being that they were either C47's or one of the other DC3 style variants, He is stating to the effect that any refs of DC3's at Croydon post war are wrong and they are in fact C47s or other variants. Is he right ?

treadigraph
4th Sep 2017, 05:51
I think Swissair still operated their original DC-3s as well as C-47s post-war, would have thought they'd have flown into Croydon.

pasir
4th Sep 2017, 06:16
I think Swissair still operated their original DC-3s as well as C-47s post-war, would have thought they'd have flown into Croydon.

Thanks Treadigraph - Could be just what I am looking for ...



DOUGLAS DC-3-216, HB-IRA / 1945, SWISSAIR (SR / SWR)

This picture is R.A.Scholefield Collection and may not be used or published without permission.

CONTACT R.A.SCHOLEFIELD COLLECTION

Registration: HB-IRA

Construction Number: 1945

Model Douglas DC-3-216

Operator: Swissair (SR / SWR)

Airport: Croydon (EGCR), UK - England

Photographer: R.A.Scholefield Collection

Date Taken: 1938

Views: 366

Assembled by Fokker and delivered to Swissair 10.06.37. Has titles under the cabin windows. Sold to Ozark in 05.55.

DaveReidUK
4th Sep 2017, 06:59
The UK register has the following variants.

16 X DC-3

There have been 21 UK-registered DC-3s, as per my previous post (8 x DC-3, 2 x DC-3A, 11 x DC-3C).

I suspect you haven't accounted for the 5 that are still current on the register.

treadigraph
4th Sep 2017, 07:56
They may be registered as DC-3s but weren't they built as C-47s?

DaveReidUK
4th Sep 2017, 08:58
They may be registered as DC-3s but weren't they built as C-47s?

About half of them were (so are still technically C-47s).

The ones registered as "DC-3C-R-1830-90C" are a bit of a giveway (R-1830 is the military designation of the Twin Wasp) and were formerly C-47Bs. In addition there were two former C-47As, designated "DC-3C-S1C3G".

The other 10 were built as DC-3s/DC-3As.

pasir
4th Sep 2017, 09:57
About half of them were (so are still technically C-47s).

The ones registered as "DC-3C-R-1830-90C" are a bit of a giveway (R-1830 is the military designation of the Twin Wasp) and were formerly C-47Bs. In addition there were two former C-47As, designated "DC-3C-S1C3G".

The other 10 were built as DC-3s/DC-3As.

>>>


So to conclude - Those aircraft depicted or shown as being DC3's seen or photographed at Croydon post war would almost certainly have been not DC3's but a C47 or variant or anything other than an original DC3.

WHBM
4th Sep 2017, 12:15
The only true DC3s were those built pre-war.


The likely candidates are, as described above, the Swissair ones, which carried on throughout and actually well into the 1950s, and the KLM fleet. Most of the latter was lost in various ways in WW2 but a couple which had been in the UK survived to be handed back to KLM afterwards.


The real issue is whether they actually came to Croydon once civil flying restarted in 1946, when European operations restarted they were generally at Northolt, and long distance ones the first Heathrow users. They may of course have come on government service, which actually accounted for muchmediate post-war flying.

pasir
4th Sep 2017, 13:18
Yes - Swissair seems more likely to qualify. The irony is that as a lad I was with KLM at Croydon airport who only operated, with few exceptions, what we all assumed were DC3's, where I spent many hours typing out KLM passenger sheets, loading sheets and export docs all showing a DC3 reference.

megan
4th Sep 2017, 13:52
Dave, your correct, I missed including those current.

Davidsa
4th Sep 2017, 13:59
>>>


So to conclude - Those aircraft depicted or shown as being DC3's seen or photographed at Croydon post war would almost certainly have been not DC3's but a C47 or variant or anything other than an original DC3.

What are the differences - technical and otherwise - between DC3's and C-47's?

Thanks

David (sometime SLF in one or the other)

pasir
4th Sep 2017, 14:55
Could involve some or all of the following - Wider cargo door, re-inforced floor for loading, different power units, tail cone etc but others with technical knowledge will probably be more specific

WHBM
4th Sep 2017, 15:31
Another possibility at Croydon would be DC3 G-AICV c/n 1943 of Skyways, a charter operator in the late 1940s (not the same name reused later). This had started as KLM PH-ALV in 1937, had been confiscated by the Luftwaffe and was still intact at the end of the war. It was given back to KLM but not used by them, they sold it to Skyways, who operated it from 1946-8. Very likely to have been through Croydon in that time.

The DC3 was built for civilian operators, whereas the C47 is a military designation, for of course the military completely took over the production.

The C47 is characterised by a large rear port pair of cargo doors, with a smaller passenger door inserted into one of them. The DC3 just had passenger doors. Changing the draughty double doors back to the DC3 passenger arrangement was a common postwar modification. The structure was pretty flexible, it seems, as pre-WW2 American Airlines DC3s had their doors on the opposite side, because the previous aircraft in the American fleet, Curtiss Condors, had the same, so ground procedures were standardised. American was also the principal (although not only) purchaser of the DST, Douglas Sleeper Transport, available all through the DC3 production time, which had an extra row of narrow windows above the main ones (but were otherwise airframe identical) to suit to overnight services with two-tier sleeper berths, giving a narrow lookout to the upper berth. These likely got incorrectly described as DC3s as well.

Regarding engines, I understand both P&W and Wright units were options on both the prewar DC3 and the C47. Someone can advise how interchangeable they were.

DaveReidUK
4th Sep 2017, 16:00
Regarding engines, I understand both P&W and Wright units were options on both the prewar DC3 and the C47. Someone can advise how interchangeable they were.

I believe a handful of DC-3s have had their Cyclones replaced by Twin Wasps (and possibly even vice versa). I suspect a bit of work is involved.

AFAIK, no C-47s were built with Wright engines.

Looking at some notes I put together a while back when answering a different question, there were 8 basic families of variants as defined by the various FAA Type Certificates:

A-607: DST (Wright Cyclone)
A-618: DC-3, C-49, C-50, C-51, R4D-2 (Cyclone/R-1820)
A-619: DC-3A (P&W Twin Wasp)
A-635: DC-3B (Cyclone)
A-647: DST-A (Twin Wasp B)
A-669: DC-3A, DC-3C, DC-3D, C-41, C-47, C-48, C-52, C-53, C-68, C-117A, R4D (Twin Wasp/R-1830)
A-671: DST-A (Twin Wasp C)
6A2: Super DC-3, C-117D, R4D-8 (Twin Wasp/R-1830)

megan
5th Sep 2017, 00:26
The ones registered as "DC-3C-R-1830-90C" are a bit of a giveway (R-1830 is the military designation of the Twin Wasp) and were formerly C-47BsAre you absolutely certain of their provenance Dave? The reason I ask is of the following (FAA TCDS),

Optional Engines DC-3C

Interchangeable with the S1C3G engines. Ratings are same as S1C3G. 100 min. grade fuel must be used unless carburetor setting is revised to permit use of 91 grade fuel. All must have 16:9 reduction gearing:

R-1830-49, R-1830-57, R-1830-82, R-1830-96, R-1830-92

Interchangeable with the S4C4G engine at identical ratings. Ignition timing must be modified to 20 for 91 grade fuel. All must have 16:9 reduction gearing:

S3C4G, R-1830-90C, R-1830-65, R-1830-43, R-1830-90D, R-1830-67, R-1830-43A

So the engine designation would not necessarily point to the aircrafts ancestry. Of course the British may do things differently, and is the reason for asking Dave.

I have no idea of the British requirements, but the FAA required,Upon completion of the conversion to certificated status, the manufacturer's nameplate on the aircraft should be altered to include the date of conversion and the new commercial model designation. In case the original nameplate is not sufficiently large to include this additional information, a similar plate should be installed near the original plate. Under no circumstances should the original or any succeeding nameplate be removed from the aircraft.The nameplate would make it the unambiguous reference.

In Australia all the airline aircraft I saw and rode in were Wright powered. Many were ex C-47 that had the P&W removed, in fact don't know if any were "real DC-3's". RAAF aircraft were P&W.

For readers you may find the FAA TCDS of interest.

P&W powered

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/9abe2e0331b73aee862577dd006a0c85/$FILE/A-669%20Rev%2032.pdf

Wright powered

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/47b08b9db4b8ba99862577dc00575f64/$FILE/A-618%20Rev%2023.pdf

Many thanks too Dave for listing all the TCDS, thought I'd include the links to a couple.

DaveReidUK
5th Sep 2017, 07:05
Are you absolutely certain of their provenance Dave? The reason I ask is of the following (FAA TCDS),

Optional Engines DC-3C

Interchangeable with the S1C3G engines. Ratings are same as S1C3G. 100 min. grade fuel must be used unless carburetor setting is revised to permit use of 91 grade fuel. All must have 16:9 reduction gearing:

R-1830-49, R-1830-57, R-1830-82, R-1830-96, R-1830-92

Interchangeable with the S4C4G engine at identical ratings. Ignition timing must be modified to 20 for 91 grade fuel. All must have 16:9 reduction gearing:

S3C4G, R-1830-90C, R-1830-65, R-1830-43, R-1830-90D, R-1830-67, R-1830-43A

So the engine designation would not necessarily point to the aircrafts ancestry. Of course the British may do things differently, and is the reason for asking Dave

True, but if an aircraft is designated as a DC-3C, then that means by definition that it started life as a C-47 or R4D.

TC A-669 (the first of your links) specifically identifies (P9) the following MSN ranges (all originally C-47Bs, I think) as applicable to the DC-3C-R-1890-90C:

20599-20898
25524-27223
32527-33626
34134-34135
34137-34144
34146-34167
34169-34190
34192-34211
34213-34233
34235-34249
34251-34263
34265-34277
34279-34290
34292-34304
34306-34317
34319-34409

though it doesn't necessarily mean that every MSN in those ranges was converted.

megan
6th Sep 2017, 02:29
Agree about where the C's started life, but the airframes were rebuilt by Douglas and given new MSN's. The data plate would no longer reflect its heritage, except to an anorak. Being pedantic I guess.

WHBM
6th Sep 2017, 04:30
Back to the Junkers, Charles Woodley's definitive "History of BEA" is on line with a couple of pages and photos about Ju52 operations at Croydon.


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6h1C4IEWnNEC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=junkers+52+bea+jupiter&source=bl&ots=OoVwuEOIHe&sig=LqlC8igQ_OrGjjzLxyJv_iPiSOw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZj96F24_WAhUQZ1AKHdbRAN4Q6AEITDAJ#v=onepage&q=junkers%2052%20bea%20jupiter&f=false

pasir
6th Sep 2017, 08:05
Thanks again WHBM - Seems to settle all doubts regarding BEA JU52 ops at Croydon. postwar. Also same again regarding DC3's at Croydon same period.

pasir
7th Sep 2017, 08:32
If Davidson scolls back to my OP it should help explain the complexity of the problem I am engrossed in with an individual who appears to have set himself up as the ultimate authority on a/c movements at Croydon Airport after 1939.

This is his argument -

Bea never operated at Croydon post war
Bea did not exist in 1946
Junkers 52's and DC3 's were never seen or used at Croydon Airport post war.

Helpful assistance has already been supplied but with no proof that DC3's which were converted to C47 etc may or may not have been converted back to DC3's - and BEA JU52's were no longer JU52'S but would be known as Jupiters when operated by as BEA, then it becomes a little more clear to see how difficult the task is going to be to disprove his claims.

Jhieminga
7th Sep 2017, 13:54
The debate about what constitutes a DC-3 is one that I would like to stay away from, but I think that you may be able to score a couple of points on the Junkers front. You say that the problem lies in the fact that the BEA Ju52s were known as 'Jupiters', but that was only a name that the marketing department (if they had anything like that in those days) stuck on the type. It did not change anything about the designation of the type. The page from Woodley's BEA book shows a photo of Ju.52/3m G-AHOC, if you look at the original registry entry for this airframe: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-AHOC.pdf you will see that this is still a Junkers Ju.52, no matter what the marketing name for the type was.

With that in mind, the Woodley book provides enough information to disprove at least two of his claims if you ask me.

WHBM
7th Sep 2017, 15:16
BEA in their earlier times had a tradition of calling their aircraft types by different names, generally a title that reflected the individual names they had given to each of the aircraft. They did this with their piston aircraft, but it died out with turbine types where they started to use the manufacturers' name instead, the Viscount being the first such. So the Vickers Vikings were known as "Admiral", the Airspeed Ambassadors as "Elizabethans", etc. It actually reflected old practice with classes of ships and railway locomotives.

The BEA Ju52s were used for a short while on Scottish internal routes, which apparently caused considerable opprobrium from those recently returned from the war. Probably elsewhere as well. I wonder why they even bothered, with fleets of DC3s - ah - C47s, and crews and engineers qualified on them, standing surplus everywhere.

ANW
8th Sep 2017, 09:19
Look up 'Early Ringway (http://www.edendale.co.uk/download/index.html)'

BEA Ju52, at Manchester : refer pages 62 (text at bottom), 63 (photos) and 65 (text at top).

They were scrapped at MAN February 1948.

Groundloop
8th Sep 2017, 09:56
They did this with their piston aircraft, but it died out with turbine types where they started to use the manufacturers' name instead, the Viscount being the first such.

Actually BEA called the Viscount the Discovery Class.

DaveReidUK
8th Sep 2017, 10:37
They did this with their piston aircraft, but it died out with turbine types where they started to use the manufacturers' name instead, the Viscount being the first such. BEA's practice of naming its aircraft fleets on a common theme became redundant with the introduction of the "red square" livery in the early 60s, which did not have provision for painting individual names on aircraft.

By then, the upcoming Vanguard fleet had been allocated names (based on warships from Nelson's era) but only G-APEA wore (briefly) the old peony scheme and I don't know if that featured its individual name "Vanguard" (which was also the class name).

WHBM
8th Sep 2017, 13:51
The one class I missed was Pionair, for the DC3 - er - C47 (with Scottish Aviation mods, although not huge ones).

Does anyone have any idea what Pionair actually referred to ?

DaveReidUK
8th Sep 2017, 14:52
Does anyone have any idea what Pionair actually referred to ?

I'd always assumed it was because they were all named after pioneers of the air.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/beadac.jpg

Some better known than others ...

megan
8th Sep 2017, 15:10
Does anyone have any idea what Pionair actually referred toDave's suggestion seems eminently correct, a play on the word "pioneer".Few, if any, civil aircraft have given such long and sterling service as has this Douglas twin-engined series. It is fitting, therefore, that in the evening of this worthy machine's life, B.E.A. should have chosen to honour the type by naming its Pionair fleet after the great figures of British aviation. Thus the spirit of men like Sir John Alcock, Sir George Caley and Sir Sefton Brancker will travel with these aircraft as they enter yet another phase of a seemingly endless career.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%200107.html

Seeing as the mods were done by Scottish Aviation I wonder if the fact they used the name "Pioneer" as model designations for some of their aircraft could have had some influence. There was the single engine "Pioneer" and the "Twin Pioneer". Who dreamt up the name "Pionair", Scottish or BEA?

A30yoyo
9th Sep 2017, 20:15
Really the only way to decide if a DC-3 is a genuine pre-war civil DC-3 is from the constructors number and an accurate production list like the Air Britain book, the rest are military production C-41/C-53/C-47/C-117/R4Ds..Post-war DC-3Cs were low time military airframes civilianized by Douglas and the 28 DC-3Ds were completed from the undelivered cancelled C-47 production line.
As said already the handful of pre-war genuine DC-3s briefly seen at Croydon came from Swissair, KLM , and a couple on the British register.Transair were a significant Dakota operator at Croydon until it closed and produced their own improved version which , like the Pionair had 4-abreast seating .
Question for PASIR...do you remember any more details about the reported KLM Skymaster visit to Croydon when you worked for them?