Southwest Airlines pilot looking to move to Europ

[Beech Balls]

I've done tons of research and digging around but could use some fresh info and tips.
Current status:
Dual citizen USA/E.U.
10000+ hours, 2700 Turb PIC on turboprops.
Typed on 1900, SF340, B737 (classic/NG)
FO at Southwest, may be upgrading in a year.
Interested in moving back to Europe, Italy specifically, and would like to know what it's like flying there, and what the job market is looking like.
I am speak French and Italian but don't speak German.
I know I will most prob need to get FAA converted to JAA.

Thanks for the input!

[Officer Kite]

For the 737: Ryanair are probably your biggest bet, massive expansion with Italy being key to it, Norwegian are also expanding in Rome I believe, depends on where in Italy you want to be exactly. You'll only need English for those two.

[Job Knockey]

You will regret leaving Southwest Airlines for a seat, any seat in Ryanair, period.

Do not do it.

[Sunrig]

I don't work for neither Ryanair nor Norwegian. But from my point of view it doesn't make any sense to leave Southwest for those carriers. Even if you might have a chance at getting in as a DEC you would be looking at 110-120K € max before tax. I assume that you already make more than that and pay less taxes in the US. So if you can upgrade in Southwest in a year you would only have half your salary here in Europe. Is it worth it?
And from your Ryanair salary you have to pay your medical, uniform, parking at the airport, hotac for simulators and much more! Even the water on board!
And remember that getting an EASA license needs a lot of studies for the written test!
All the best!

[Barnouz]

Coming back home always makes sense, especially after so many years in the USA.

[EatMyShorts!]

Stay where you are. The jobs in Europe are rotten.

[JetpoweredMigrantWkr]

If that's where you want to be, I say go for it.
But I would only try to go over as a DEC.
Also, the conversion is kind of a PITA.
You gotta do the EASA 14 written tests.

[B2N2]

So you're probably making $160k/year and shortly up to $200k/year.
Good luck finding any job in Europe that pays that much.
You'll be lucky if you start with half of that.
Don't forget the cost of living in europa-land.
You may be better off moving to Europe and commuting.

[Fire and brimstone]

Stay where you are. The jobs in Europe are rotten.

Never, in the field of human history, has one post summed up the situation so well.

Give him a medal.

[733driver]

You may be better off moving to Europe and commuting.

You don't really mean that, do you? I agree that Ryanair is very far from being the best employer out there and I too would not wish to join them but I would never suggest that a transatlantic commute would be a better option. Maybe (!) if one is super senior in a US major on a long haul fleet doing two trips per month or so then such a commute could work longer term. However, commuting is never fun and money is not everything contrary to popular belief in America.

[Metro man]

Get upgraded first and look at DEC after a year or two unless going to a legacy airline where getting on the seniority list is number one priority.

Many pilots in Europe would kill to work for a good employer like Southwest. Anti union, pilot hating Ryanair might be a shock to the system.

[SOPS]

I've done tons of research and digging around but could use some fresh info and tips.
Current status:
Dual citizen USA/E.U.
10000+ hours, 2700 Turb PIC on turboprops.
Typed on 1900, SF340, B737 (classic/NG)
FO at Southwest, may be upgrading in a year.
Interested in moving back to Europe, Italy specifically, and would like to know what it's like flying there, and what the job market is looking like.
I am speak French and Italian but don't speak German.
I know I will most prob need to get FAA converted to JAA.

Thanks for the input!
No offence...but are you crazy? Stay where you are!

[B2N2]

You don't really mean that, do you? I agree that Ryanair is very far from being the best employer out there and I too would not wish to join them but I would never suggest that a transatlantic commute would be a better option. Maybe (!) if one is super senior in a US major on a long haul fleet doing two trips per month or so then such a commute could work longer term. However, commuting is never fun and money is not everything contrary to popular belief in America.

Previously employment I've personally flown with a Captain who lived in Italy and works in the USA.
Present employer has Captains living in Hong Kong, Phillipines, Europe and commuting into their base.
And money doesn't buy you happiness but crying in a Mercedes sure as hell beats crying on a pedal bike.

[hunterboy]

Seriously...stay where you are ....unless you parachute into a flag carrier job in the LHS.

[LLuCCiFeR]

For starters, Europe is spelled with an extra 'e" at the end. ;)

[LW20]

The most stupid idea I had heard in the last 10 years!

[AIMINGHIGH123]

How is it a stupid idea?
If the guy/gal is fed up with the USA it's not stupid.
I am fed up with the UK and seriously considering the Middle East. Some would say this is a stupid idea but some say it's a great idea.

My friend works at Easy based in Italy Milan, he loves it. Work is hard but he loves Italy, great food weather and the property he has he would never get here in the uk, access to the slopes for skiing in winter mountain biking in summer and an awesome view.

[Beech Balls]

Banks for the input!
Anyone in Italy have some info related to getting based there? I hear it takes s decade... I'd like Milan basing.

[dirk85]

As a Captain or F/O?
Being transferred to MXP on the right seat in easyJet doesnt take much time, or can even be obtained straight away if you are lucky with the timing.
Current waiting time for Captains is anything between 5/7 years.
All subject to change, of course (see Air Berlin or Alitalia...).

[button push ignored]

head in clouds.

Lets see how many European B-737 pilots would change places with you.
My guess that I'd be 100% of them.

If you need a break from ten legs a day, and never leave Texas.
Then maybe it's time to move on.
But pick somewhere better than where your currently at.

The barista at my local coffee shop asked me if her new hire boyfriend should leave Southwest for Fed-Ex.
I have the utmost respect for the whole Southwest organization.
But my advice was, YES.
That way you could be based in Germany and fly all over Europe and still earn top American wages.

[dirk85]

You can't put a price tag on being based at home.

And having lived in Texas and in Italy, I kinda understand him, Southwest or not.

[button push ignored]

Dirk85: Says, you can't put a price on being based at home.

Yes, you can.
It's called $300,000 a year.
Which I understand is entirely possible at Southwest.

[Contact Approach]

I'd try get a DEC if you were coming back over this way. Even if you have to wait a year.

[El Capitano]

head in clouds.

Lets see how many European B-737 pilots would change places with you.
My guess that I'd be 100% of them.

If you need a break from ten legs a day, and never leave Texas.
Then maybe it's time to move on.
But pick somewhere better than where your currently at.

The barista at my local coffee shop asked me if her new hire boyfriend should leave Southwest for Fed-Ex.
I have the utmost respect for the whole Southwest organization.
But my advice was, YES.
That way you could be based in Germany and fly all over Europe and still earn top American wages.


It is about time that this will be stopped!
Fedex pilots flying around in Europe and Asia
and in the meantime stealing local pilot jobs!
A big scandal which should be banned immediately!
They get their permits based on grand father rights from
WW II which is now more than 70 years ago!
In the meantime EU pilots are not allowed to fly commercial in the US.
Unless you have a green card and FAA papers.
Fedex UPS pilots must be stopped flying in Europe NOW

[button push ignored]

Banks for the input!
Anyone in Italy have some info related to getting based there? I hear it takes s decade... I'd like Milan basing.

Yes, my friend is an Alitalia B-777 Captain based in Milan..
He will swap his entire life for that of senior first officer at Southwest.
No you can't have his lovely wife.
But will include a lease on his lake home on Lake Majori.

Alitalia will be in business for about another two months.

[button push ignored]

It is about time that this will be stopped!
Fedex pilots flying around in Europe and Asia
and in the meantime stealing local pilot jobs!
A big scandal which should be banned immediately!
They get their permits based on grand father rights from
WW II which is now more than 70 years ago!
In the meantime EU pilots are not allowed to fly commercial in the US.
Unless you have a green card and FAA papers.
Fedex UPS pilots must be stopped flying in Europe NOW

FedEx bought Flying Tigers and TNT.

Flying Tiger Line was awarded right to provide essential air service after WWII.
If you don't think they deserve it, the ask the people in West Berlin if they appreciate them?

TNT was just about to go out of business, and both UPS and FedEx made an offer.
The EU turned down the UPS offer in favor of FedEx's.
You want to talk about the EU being fair?
In business you don't get to make a second mistake.
TNT didn't know anything except how to run it into the ground.

When you buy something, you also are buying the rights to all the company has.
When you are awarded something, it now belongs to you.

UPS were granted the rights to all they operate. For all other flights, they subcontract through Star Air, and MNG.

I fully understand your position, and sympathize if you are out of work.
But pilot jobs has nothing to do with hiring locals.
It is about big business.

[Tommy Gavin]

Don't want to steal this thread but BPI you don't really understand what you are talking about. Fedex and UPS operate more routes than the initial so called grandfather rights. And they load and unload in between, what is a very grey area. I am sure both Fedex and UPS would like to see the European network flown by European pilots as they are much cheaper and more flexible. In fact, I wouldn't be surpised if Fedex is using the TNT deal to expedite the use of using Euopean troops to move the cargo. Now, to use this as a bridge to the original topic. TNT/ASL are looking for 737 pilots. Money isn't great but you apparently work that hard and have a stable roster. Still, I would stay out of the EU LoCo business (except maybe Easy). Can you do parttime and commute?

[dirk85]

I would take 10k eur net a month in italy, or anywhere in europe for that matter, instead of 300k usd gross a year in the states, whatever net that would be, without even thinking.
It's about quality of life, at the end of the day.

As for Alitalia, we will see, I wasnt even born when they were supposed to go bankrupt the first time, and they are still here.

[LW20]

It is useless to live in the best place on earth, if you can't afford it, or have no time to be home because of your job you need to pay the bills.
As an FO in Europe you will most probably only find jobs which offer you both: no time at home and to little money to live.

[dirk85]

Not necessarily.
There are a few jobs, not many of them, I will give you that, that still allow you a very good lifestyle, in terms of pay and roster.
Easyjet contract in italy is one of these, as stated already.

[button push ignored]

I would take E:10,000 net a month in Italy, or anywhere in Europe for that matter, instead of US$300,000 gross a year in the United States.
It's about quality of life, at the end of the day.

Non National European airlines do not pay E120,000 net a year. With a taxation rate of 40% a captain that fly's a full schedule is lucky to take home E6,000 a month. And that's a grueling 900 hour a year schedule.

Southwest Airlines captains can easily make US$300,000 a year gross. With a taxation rate of 25%, that will give them close to $19,000 take home a month. And that's with a easier 750 hour a year schedule.

It's like you say all about quality of life, at the end of the day.
I like to fly my light aircraft on my days off. There are thousands of airports from grass strips to international gateways at my disposal, free of charge.
Now that's quality time in my opinion.

[Bubair]

I'd try get a DEC if you were coming back over this way. Even if you have to wait a year.

Very wise advice!

[Beech Balls]

Thanks for all the input fellas.
I would only take a direct entry captain position. Not really interested in swinging some other dude's gear anymore.

And no it's not all about money. $300000 a year in the US is nice but Europe is nicer to live in on many (not all) levels.

Can you guys tell me more about Easy Jet? Schedule? Benefits? Morale? Pay?

[Beech Balls]

I QM considering commuting to some extent. With vacation and 15 days off/month, we may be able to find a way to live in 'both' places at once.
Problem is we want to live in Italy (family/friends), but I love GA and warbirds and the possibility of staying in that game in the US. There is almost NO general aviation in Italy.

[dirk85]

Tax rate in italy for pilots is much less than 40%, and I confirm that 120k net a year is a standard figure for a Captain in easyJet, including loyalty bonus, and without considering pension.

Between 700 and 800 hours on average, 5 on 4 off.

Sure, waiting list is long for Milan, but not so much for other bases.

[Icejock]

Or you could go for DEC with Norwegian with a US-base and complete the ATPL through them and then bid for FCO-base. It would probably take you a year or something like that.

[button push ignored]

Tax rate in Italy for pilots is much less than 40%, and I confirm that 120k net a year is a standard figure for a Captain in EasyJet, including loyalty bonus, and without considering pension.
Between 700 and 800 hours on average, 5 on 4 off.

Don't you mean E120,000 a year GROSS (before taxes)?
And Easy Jet is the best of the low cost carriers.
All others with the possible exception of Jet2 sound horrible.

I've talked to Ryanair crews at Rome Ciampino waiting to be picked up in the aquamarine swede colored vans to take us to our planes.
The vast majority of them hated working for them.

As I understand it, British Airways top long haul captains make about GBP150,000 a year.

If you compare Easy Jet top pay E120,000 to British Airways short haul top pay at about GBP120,000 to top American pay.
Then I think you'll find that The United States pays about twice as much as anything Europe has to offer.

Sure, life's not all about money.
That's why I'll add that I fly less than 30 hours on average a month.
4 on - 10 off.
Pay to date this year is 311, and I've only done one trip of overtime and no emergency coverage.
Naturally, without even considering pension.

[BluSdUp]

Beech Balls, I shure can understand that You want to go home, but I am intrigued by Your attitude towards Your project.
I have a few questions :
Have you started reading for the ATPL?
You have to be a captain to go Direct Entry Captain ( DEC) You are not, as I understand it,
You fly the 737 and want to go DEC with Easyjet an A320 operator?

I am afraid it aint that easy......

[oboema]

Well BPI..

FO 737 KLM, total compensation package 2017 approx E151.000.
Living in Italy pilots pay around 28000 tax, flat rate.
Take home Nett: 123.000 (commuting from AMS)

Top scale widebody can match USA/ FedEx pay.
There is hope in Europe ;)

[dirk85]

Don't you mean E120,000 a year GROSS (before taxes)?


I mean net, after taxes and social security.

Great part time deals available too, with enough seniority.

[papazulu]

If you don't think they deserve it, the ask the people in West Berlin if they appreciate them?

So do we have to be grateful to the yanks also for the creation of the IS till the end of the times or would you like, as co-national of Tony Blair take your fair share of the merit too?

[Beech Balls]

Beech Balls, I shure can understand that You want to go home, but I am intrigued by Your attitude towards Your project.
I have a few questions :
Have you started reading for the ATPL?
You have to be a captain to go Direct Entry Captain ( DEC) You are not, as I understand it,
You fly the 737 and want to go DEC with Easyjet an A320 operator?

I am afraid it aint that easy......

Yes I realize I have to be a Capt, and have 737 Capt time. I have turboprop PIC time which apparently doesn't count, which is idiotic since it's a harder job...
I'm looking long term here, starting the conversion process and getting he frozen ATPL and then knocking the type ride out of the way once flight time gets closer.
Easy jet does hire non A320 typed DEC.

[TriStar_drvr]

Have you considered commuting? As an FO near upgrade you must be on or very near the eleven year pay rate. You could bid a line that flies 4 three day trips, trade two of them to have two six day work blocks and then have two weeks off between the blocks. You will soon, or already have 4 weeks of vacation a year, giving you 4 months of the year in which you only have to fly 6 days in the month if you drop all trips that touch your vacation week. Assuming you get 90 Trips for Pay for 8 months, and 80 Trips or Pay for four months, that would give you around $162,000 for working 120 days a year while flying around 750 hours at most.

Seems like to me you could be based in Baltimore or Chicago, fly in the day before and land in the afternoon. Do six days of AM trips, then catch the evening flight back to Rome or Milan.

I don't know what the Italian government would try to take in taxes. Don't forget that you can shelter $18,000 in retirement accounts from US taxes and also receive an extra 14% of that $162,000 plus profit sharing contributed to your retirement account.

I make it sound so good I'd try it if I had an E.U. Passport. Finally if you're senior to me, ignore all of the above and resign immediately ;)

[akindofmagic]

Non National European airlines do not pay E120,000 net a year. With a taxation rate of 40% a captain that fly's a full schedule is lucky to take home E6,000 a month. And that's a grueling 900 hour a year schedule.

I'm part time and I take home around €10k a month (plus around €12k net bonus once a year). That doesn't take into account a bonus based on company performance, free shares etc. (which I haven't included as they're not guaranteed).

[Bubair]

I QM considering commuting to some extent. With vacation and 15 days off/month, we may be able to find a way to live in 'both' places at once.
Problem is we want to live in Italy (family/friends), but I love GA and warbirds and the possibility of staying in that game in the US. There is almost NO general aviation in Italy.

With the easyJet contract you can be on leave for 15days every other month.
I perfectly know what you mean about GA in Italy....I am a Cpt for ezy based in Italy and every other month I hop to the west coast for GA flying......too bad there are no DEC positions in USA (very happy to be proved wrong on that sentence...:) )

[button push ignored]

Top hourly pay in United States.
Most airlines max out with 12 years seniority.

Delta $330
United $328
American $323
UPS $309
FedEx $296
Southwest $251
Kalitta $250
Allegiant $222
JetBlue $219
ABX $219
Hawaiian $207
Virgin America $189
Spirit $185
Air Transport $182
Southern $172
National $170
Sun Country $169
Frontier $167

For a average yearly pay, add three zeros and multiply by twelve.

[733driver]

That can't be right. I think adding three zeros is enough for a rough yearly salary.

[standbykid]

Multiply by 72 (Keeps you under 900 hrs per year)
Multiply by 12.
Probably gets you in the ballpark.

[sodapop]

Listen, if you are truly an Italian SWA pilot with a US passport, then you are either (here it comes);

1. An idiot who has never tried to obtain a flying job in Italy and doesn't understand how to obtain an EASA license.
2. An idiot who wants to leave SWA ( where I, a REAL dual US/Italian Citizen) have around 30 ex-USAF colleagues flying for SWA, thinking he will earn a decent living or get a DEC in Ryan or Easy with his outstanding right seat FO time. (Ridiculous KLM FO pay scale and bullsh*t Italian 28000€ flat tax rates aside)
3. An aviation troll (i.e. idiot) who flies drones around his backyard while trying not to burn his brats on the Weber.

Either way, man up and make a decision.


PS: after some decent Raboso di Piave vino I couldn't resist. Buonanotte a tutti

[arketip]

PS: after some decent Raboso di Piave vino I couldn't resist. Buonanotte a tutti

Just drunk talk then.

[sodapop]

Just drunk talk then.

Said the non-pilot in his sober wisdom