Instructors - any favourite "bon mots" ?

[Fonsini]

Doesn't have to be a QFI of course, any old salt with words of wisdom to trainees will do.

A couple of my favourites:

"Why are you rushing your landing, the ground isn't going anywhere".
---------
Trainee - "I see we are on a weather hold sir, perhaps I could take you to lunch"

Instructor - "You don't know enough to take me to lunch"
--------
Instructor in tower to student pilot on first solo - "there is an aircraft on the runway, go around."

Student - "Roger" (continues approach)

Instructor - "Repeat, there is an aircraft on the runway GO AROUND"

Student - "Roger" (student lands, taxis up to a big twin sitting on the runway, and goes around it)

Some of those may be apocryphal, but you get the idea.

(in hindsight maybe this should be in Jet Blast - apologies)

[57mm]

Student Cessna pilot stops at runway intersection after an especially bouncy
landing and requests permission to cross the runway; tower replies "Garn, you can jump it!"

[eckhard]

Written in a student's report after circuits: "He stalks the centreline with all the skill and cunning of a Canadian fur-trapper."

[ShyTorque]

RAF QFI reporting on his Jet Provost student: "By pressing the engine start button, Bloggs sets in motion a sequence of events over which he has little control".

[Haraka]

I have two remarks that solved problems instantaneously .
1. After learning initially on American Yokes,being very ham fisted on a Chipmunk control column." Think of the stick as rigid Haraka,and just apply pressure to it".
2. Years later making a total "horlicks" slamming airbrakes in and out on a glider on approach . "FFS Haraka treat them like a throttle!"

And one I will never forget:
Doing a solo EFATO practice, with Ken Wallis generally offering suggestions and looking on, with an Autogiro which terminated from 100 ft with what can, euphemistically, perhaps be best described as a very heavy landing.
Whilst unstrapping, switching everything off ,checking that I hadn't broken my back and rapidly preparing to vacate the premises, I was aware of KHW standing alongside.

"Terribly sorry old boy, I do appear to have dropped you in at the deep end a bit there".

[KPax]

After repeated attempts by a Controller to get a student pilot away from CAS 'Exam 45 adopt the callsign Failed 45 now in Controlled Airspace'.

[cyclic35]

Bloggs, when we apply full forward on the Jet Provost control column, why are the brakes applied?
"No idea Sir."
Well Bloggs, your leg restraints should be behind the column not in front.:=

[Planet Basher]

Instructor, "That is Don Bullock, don't ever fly with him".

Student, (Thinks, I never take any notice of people who bad mouth other people but...), "Yea, OK".

[MPN11]

"OVERSHOOT" ... he said it so often it's lodged in my memory.

[[email protected]]

A Scottish QHI on the RAF Sea King Conversion Unit - 'Did we land......or were we shot down?'

[[email protected]]

Ex Jag mate QFI to me on flapless approach to Linton -

'Can you feel that vibration mate?'

Me - 'Yes'

QFI - 'Well put the f**king nose down, it's the stall'

[ShyTorque]

Instructor, "That is Don Bullock, don't ever fly with him".

Student, (Thinks, I never take any notice of people who bad mouth other people but...), "Yea, OK".

Very good advice. At one air display I was put in fear for my life by someone of that name - even though we (myself, my wife and her parents) were on the ground at the time. :mad:

[Rosevidney1]

A harassed fellow instructor said his 'overseas' student showed all the smooth control of a copulating ferret.

[blind pew]

ACE if bull**** was a trombone you would be a full brass band

[SpazSinbad]

When I asked paddles how to improve my carrier landing grades:

LSO Answer: ‘Just fly a centred ball on speed on centreline all the way to touchdown.’

[Basil]

Not quite a QFI, but:

Leeming 1966.
JP at 9500ft - Leeming radar: Old pilot on ground tour.

JP: Leeming, JP FL950 request descent.
ATC: Roger JP, fire retro rockets now. Splashdown will be in Osmotherly reservoir.

[Maxibon]

Vale of York, late 80s in a JP3. Creamie QFI to me "Why can't you f£&@ing do that; are you some kind of spaz?" Hats off to your professionalism; you really earned your 'sir'.

[Danny42C]

Stude: "What's it like, Sir, this night flying ?

QFI: "Much like day, Bloggs, except that the air's smoother, and you'll find the controls a lot heavier"

Stude: "Why is that, Sir ?"

QFI: "Because I've damn well got hold of them !"

(no, I was never a QFI)

[Wander00]

Gnat, Valley, turning finals, wind blowing me towards the runway so tighten turn. Aircraft descending like one of Messrs Otis's finest. Me fresh out of ideas when voice in my ears says through gritted teeth "I have control". Man in the boot rolls wings level and pulls out of descent fairly near the ground. As we climb away, "If you had been on your own you would be f***ing well dead". Lesson well and truly learned and thank you Vic W for the subsequent 51 years

[oldbeefer]

When teaching a student to hover a helicopter and trying to relax on the cyclic - "imagine you're a Duchess holding a tramp's cock"

[2 TWU]

Look, I can do it, the aircraft can do it, why can't you do it?

[Four Turbo]

It took us a long time to get a Prince solo. Afterwards: "Well R***d we finally made it". "Thank you sir; it would take you twice as long to solo on my camel!"

[Danny42C]

Good advice from drawling South Carolinan to get me to relax:

"Wiggle your piggies, son !"

Thanks, Bob Greer. - I'd never have made it but for you, if there's a bar on the Other Side, I owe you one.

[622]

"Can you see the airfield down on your left Bloggs"...pause..."No, the other Left Bloggs"

[goudie]

Saudi trainee pilot making a mess of short finals, lets go of the controls and wails 'all is in the hands Allah'. Voice from the back mutters ' no it's not, it's f***ng well in mine!

[Fareastdriver]

That's not the same prince who, having spread an aeroplane all over the airfield, was found sitting in the Ante Room denying that he was anywhere near it?

[Haraka]

F.E.D. That incident happened on Provosts IIRC. ( N.B not J.P.s)
Around that time another middle-eastern country, which will be nameless, had pilots attending more advanced training during which an instructor was overheard advising a student that on first seeing enemy fighters it was a good idea to "fly straight and level for a bit" until he was sure of what was going on.
Taken aside quietly he then explained:

" Think about it. It's highly likely we will up against these b*ggers in a couple of years time"........

[goudie]

FED Happened at Little Rissington, I believe and might well have been the same student

[just another jocky]

FED Happened at Little Rissington, I believe and might well have been the same student

And at Fenton.


Sounds like one of those apocryphal tales.

[2 TWU]

Trying to instill smoothness into instrument flying.

'Always imagine you have the Queen Mum down the back and you don't want to spill her G and T'

[Lonewolf_50]

From when I was a student:

There'd been some hard landings over the previous two months in our training squadron. A few birds were sent to the depot to get unbent / skin patched. At the quarterly safety stand down, one of the students stood up and asked "What can we do to prevent these hard landings?"
From the back my night flying instructor (I recognized his voice) drawled out ...
"Flare!"
The room broke up, and even the XO was stifling the laughter.


One from my IP days:
Me to student: "Pulling the nose up on short final won't make you go higher, nor get back on profile. It will make you go slower and fall faster. When low, lead with power."
Student to me: "Won't that make me go faster?"
Me to student: "We'll live longer dealing with having more airspeed than with having too little."
Student: "But I've been having trouble with floating."
Me: "No approach is too bad, nor too good, to wave off. When you make a decision to wave off, it is not counted against you. I count it in your favor that you used your head, and we get to try again."
Student: "Oh, I thought a wave off meant I failed the landing."
My jaw about drops. (Where the hell did he hear that?)
Me: "You fail the landing if you hit the ground wrong, or you stall and we crash."
I pause.
"Let's go and do some high work, and we'll come back to the landing pattern in a bit."
We left the pattern.
-------------------------------------------------
I asked around the other IPs for the next few days trying to find out where he would have heard that about failing the landing, and which IP was putting that word out? Had a long talk with the Standardization Officer. I was both puzzled and worried.
Nobody was teaching this. Apparently, this was one of those rumors running around among some of the students, who were always trying to figure out how to get the best scores on each flight .... yikes! Memo went out from the Standardization Officer to all flight leaders to do a bit of rumor control.

[staircase]

Duty instructor (DI) at Linton, must have been 1975, sitting in the tower reading the porn, when an R/T call on tower says;

‘C33 (odd number call sign so a student) Calling DI stud 8 for flame out!’

I immediately inform the ATC assistant to call the powers that be, and pick up the headset.

‘Where are you C33, what is your position?’

‘C33 is taxing in. The engine went out doing aeros 20 mins ago. I did the standard relight and it started so I finished my sortie. What I want to know sir, is should I put the aeroplane U/S?’

At this point the Station Master and the C/I are just arriving at the tower ……

[Basil]

Lonewolf_50, I initiated a go-around from my first B-747 approach (base training; no pax).

The Base Training Captain, a bit of a hard case, was ecstatic. I think I got more Brownie points than if I'd achieved a half decent touchdown.

[ACW599]

Instructor to colleagues in crew-room after trip and about to write report: "How do you spell congenital?"

[Wwyvern]

There's not much new. I heard about the foreign student, on a previous Chivenor course, who was discovered in the OM ante room after he left his aircraft at the end of the runway, in 1960.

On my course, my air to air gunnery instructor told me that the secret to good pipper control was to hold the stick "like you held your c*ck". My final OCU air to air assessment was "above average". Didn't repeat it on the squadron, though.

[Herod]

ACW599 wrote:

Instructor to colleagues in crew-room after trip and about to write report: "How do you spell congenital?"

Similar: "How many "b"s sin abysmal?" or "How many "t"s in atrocious?"

[Brian 48nav]

Herc' co-pilot training sortie at Fairford - instructor in LH seat is USAF exchange officer Major J J Smith ( RIP, sadly ).

J J is making notes as our hero in the RH seat flies downwind - co-pilot looks across at JJ with a worried look on his face.

" Don't worry G ****, I'm just writing a letter to my mother " says J J.

" Phew " says G.

" Dear Mother, what a dumb **** of a co-pilot I'm flying with ".

Even G managed to wet himself!

[Stanley Eevil]

Written in a student's report after a circuit trip: "Bloggs is so far behind the aircraft; if it were to crash he would be totally unharmed"

[Danny42C]

Lonewolf_50 (#32),From when I was a student:
..."one of the students stood up and asked "What can we do to prevent these hard landings?"
From the back my night flying instructor (I recognized his voice) drawled out ...
"Flare!"... Excerpt from my Page 120, #2391 on "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII":

..."At one point on the Course there was an epidemic of "ground-looping". The AT-6 is above-averagely susceptible to this at the hands of the ham-fisted (or I suppose I should say, the ham-footed) student. There were cases on night landing, and our instructors devised a special technique to deal with it.
You came in at 70 mph, flaps down, with enough power set to give a descent of 700 ft/min. Then you simply flew into the runway with no attempt to check or hold off. There was an almighty bang, you shoved the stick forward, the aircraft skipped once then thumped down, tail-up onto its wheels. You held it there until it had slowed down enough to let the tail down.

It was a "controlled crash". How the AT-6 stood up to this barbarous treatment, I'll never know. The undercarriage must have been massive. I suppose, as a training aircraft, it had to be. At least, none of ours broke"...

Danny42C (class of, in the US Army Air Corps Arnold Scheme).

[ACW418]

Initial instrument flying sortie on the JP3. My Master Pilot instructor said "You've got a touch like a Scandinavian Midwife". Still don't know what he meant but I guess it must have been something like you are crap!

ACW

[Freefly170]

Parachute freefall course, my first 60 sec delay using a BOC (Bottom of Container) mounted pilot drogue (Which you cannot see when in freefall).

Instructor: OK bloggs, just before you reach your deployment altitude, left arm above your head and with your right hand reach down beside your right arse cheek, find the handle, grip it and with one smooth motion extract and throw it out to the side and return to the stable position.

Me: What if I reach down and accidentally miss the handle ?

Instructor (deadpan) Do you often go to wipe your arse and accidentally miss it ?

Much sniggering from the lads behind me.

[sharpend]

A few from my past:

Don't say 'Ooops' say 'Spoiler'. VC10 stuff.

He stalked the runway using all available cover. (flapless in a Hawk)

[ExAscoteer]

He stalked the runway using all available cover.

I had similar to that:

XXX sneaked up on the runway using all available cover and then, catching it by surprise, leapt out to grab it unawares when it wasn't looking.

[cyclic35]

That's not the same prince who, having spread an aeroplane all over the airfield, was found sitting in the Ante Room denying that he was anywhere near it?

Was that flap from the same JP hanging on L-O-O 3 Sqn Students' Crew Room wall? :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

JP QFI after IF sortie: "Well, young ShyTorque, it was much smoother today!"

S: "Why, thankyou, sir!"

QFI: "Not you, you **** - I meant the weather!"

[Basil]

The late lamented (and extremely brave for not taking control from Bas) Roger Forbes-Harris in the debrief: "And why did you do that on finals?"
Don't ask, just imagine a combination of stupidity and misunderstanding.

[tartare]

...this is priceless.
A Duchess holding a tramp's cock :}

[Fonsini]

All this talk of Saudi princes pretending not to have crashed made me look it up. I'm assuming it was this one:

ASN Aircraft accident 15-AUG-1960 Percival Provost T1 XF614 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=145208)

But then it was also hard to ignore this one:

ASN Aircraft accident 05-JAN-1960 Percival Provost T1 WV537 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=56613)

[BEagle]

A tale was doing the rounds a few years ago about a helicopter accident involving a foreign student:

It seems he was flying his Gazelle on a navex, when he was caught short, so landed in a field. Unfortunately he pranged the helicopter and rushed off to complete his urgent business behind a hedge.

A QHI flying in the same area spotted the downed helicopter and decided to land to check whether the pilot is OK. After landing, he couldn't find the pilot so set off to look for him.

Meanwhile the student finished what was doing, hopped back over the hedge, jumped into the serviceable Gazelle and took off - much to the chagrin of the QHI who returned to find that he was now left with the remains of the other one.

Was this really true - or a fable?

[treadigraph]

Well if it isn't true it bloody well ought to be... :)

[ShyTorque]

No, no - it was an army pilot who landed on a small pinnacle then went forwards into the jungle to take a comfort break. He left the aircraft running, it fell backwards off the pinnacle. Another pilot saw it happen, landed on the pinnacle, left it running, first pilot comes back unawares and takes the second aircraft...... Etc. Was it a Sioux, or a Scout, or both?

Not to forget the RAF Puma pilot in Norway who got whiteout on landing and damaged the landing gear. A Gazelle landed to assist, got whiteout, crashed and trashed it. Second Gazelle arrives, same thing happened. Puma has to get airborne to take everyone home!

The last one was true.

Also a Gazelle landed in an icy, snow covered car park, shut down, slid downhill into snow bank. Second Gazelle landed, slid slap into the back of the first one.

I can't remember if the above incidents were the same, I think not.

[ShyTorque]

An RAF colleague of mine set off in a Puma for a task. He returned a few minutes later, complained bitterly to the ground crew chief that the aircraft was u/s. He was allocated a second aircraft and the "lineys" were sent into the hangar to tow it out. He signed for the new aircraft but before it was towed out he went back out to the first one and took off in it again! Best thing was, the crewman was still in the first Puma, he thought they were OK to take it after all! My colleague thought he had swapped all the kit over to the new one.

[Fareastdriver]

#52

I don't remember the first one but as you say the second was true.

[lsd]

And the student on our solo night flying phase who (allegedly) was allocated and signed for JP 'A', ventured out into the darkness and got into 'B', and on completing his sortie came back into the line office to sign off 'C' as u/s.

[charliegolf]

Not to forget the RAF Puma pilot in Norway who got whiteout on landing and damaged the landing gear. A Gazelle landed to assist, got whiteout, crashed and trashed it. Second Gazelle arrives, same thing happened. Puma has to get airborne to take everyone home!

The last one was true.



I was the crewman who took everyone home!:ok: Imagine how careful we were on that approach!

CG

[John Eacott]

My instructor on 705 NAS was Dave "Malarky Jim" Mallock, one of a very few A1 instructors at the time.

Favourite saying (helicopter drivers will appreciate) was 'go the way you're pointing, and point the way you're going'.

Later I managed my first Deck Landing with Mike Lehan. In the debrief the opening was along the lines of 'when you get front line that's an excellent approach and landing. As you're a stude, that's a fail'.

[Ali Qadoo]

Dear reader, I was that clueless stude...

One of my early trips on the TWU course at Chiv, thumb in bum, mind in neutral, taxying out too close to the aircraft ahead.


Voice from the back seat (clearly trying to get idiot Bloggs to use the gunsight to work out the range): "So, Bloggs, what's the minimum spacing on taxy?"
Me: "Hundredandfiftyyards." (Chest swelling at my own cleverness)
Voice: "So how do you judge 150 yards, Bloggs?"
Me (without thinking): "Ooh, it's about a well-struck 7 iron."
Cue a string of deleted expletives from the back seat.

[BEagle]

It is said that a Gnat student managed to get lost at night....

....whilst taxying at Valley. For those who've never flown it, you sit so close to the ground in a Gnat that you cannot see very far. This chap turned onto some piece of tarmac which proved itself not to be the taxiway when grass appeared dead ahead. So he shut down, which meant no radio. Or lights. He then got out and made his way to the tower...

"Where did you leave it?"
"Errmm - don't know. On some bit of tarmac on the airfield!"

As it was very dark, they couldn't run the risk of someone running into the abandoned Gnat, so people were diverted until dawn revealed wherever it was that our hero had left it.

[oldbeefer]

SHY -Ii believe the first of your incidents happened on Troodos mountain in Cyprus to a pair of Sioux. The Gazelle one on the icy, sloping car park is true. The second pilot was the flight commander who had set off when he heard about the incident to bollock the first pilot!

[oldbeefer]

More of a 'I Learnt About Flying From That' was the Wessex pilot who parked his aircraft on a sloping parade square and hung his helmet by its strap from the rotor brake handle in the cockpit roof. Went off for a brew. The brake lever disengaged itself from its clip, helmet dropped and flicked the parking brake lever to off. With no chocks, the Wessex trundled down the square and trashed its tail rotor on the wall at the bottom.

[MPN11]

...This chap turned onto some piece of tarmac which proved itself not to be the taxiway when grass appeared dead ahead. So he shut down, which meant no radio. Or lights. He then got out and made his way to the tower...
Not an aircraft incident, but one very foggy night at Strubby I set off in a Mini to turn off the Pundit on the north side of the airfield [I think it was left on for Manby night-flying, if they could]. That achieved, it was now both dark and foggy. And, as a Strubby ATCO, it took me bloody ages to find my way back across to the south side.

(Apologies, that's out of context. Just responding to a previous Gnat post.)

[Prangster]

643GS Kirton in Lindsey mid 60's. Foggy fog fog, so foggy it was really foggy. (Just makinga point so you grasp how foggy it was) Not forecast just dropped out of the sky like a stone leaving six assorted Mk111's and T21's littering the launch point. After a miserable hour with no sign of it lifting and the day drawing to an end CFI orders eveything to be towed in. Easier said then done. One Landy vanished into the gloom with a Mk111 dangling on the rope Half and hour later Landy emerges from the gloom near the hangers. (glider wot glider) It took some finding.

[Wander00]

I suspect this thread could run and run......

[Dan Winterland]

QFI to me mimicking an ATC call. "

"Fast moving contact in your 6 o'clock, range 5 miles, same heading, same altitude same speed. Might be your brain!

[megan]

Five decades ago the following story had currency among we students. Always had doubts over its veracity, until discovering these clips.

Snq_CT_7rrk
k5LoTgDfYYg

[ACW599]

Another good one from a crew-room many moons ago:

"Bloggs, if your brains were dynamite there wouldn't be enough there to blow your bloody hat off".

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#62),

Totally irrelevant to Thread, but whenever did that stand in the way of a good story ?)
Your:
Not an aircraft incident, but one very foggy night at Strubby I set off in a Mini to turn off the Pundit on the north side of the airfield [I think it was left on for Many night-flying, if they could]. That achieved, it was now both dark and foggy. And, as a Strubby ATCO, it took me bloody ages to find my way back across to the south side.
You are in good company, Sir ! (it can happen to anybody) - Dum-Dum, 1943:

To cut a long story short, I turned off, missed the first (proper) track, which looked small and insignificant, and took the next. When that looped round, heading off the airfield, the penny dropped. I was on a contractor's access road. I stopped, stuck.
There was no room to turn round and the VV had no reverse gear. I shut down and sent (mutinously muttering) "Stew" back on foot to confess. He didn't have far to walk: my absence had been noted. "Where's Danny?" - "He landed behind me", said Number Five, "so he must be on the field somewhere". The Flight truck raced back up the taxiway and found us.

They had to fetch a tractor and towing dolly to haul me out, ignominiously, tail-first back down the track to the flight line. The Boss was not well pleased, time had been lost, the word "idiot" may have been used. Others chuckled that, as a rule, aircraft got lost in the air - not on the ground
!
Danny (ex-ATCO, Strubby)

and

megan (#67) - Marvellous ! D.

[Dougie M]

A multi engine /crew story from the dim and distant involved a splendid QFI with the name of Taff John. It was a night CT sortie at Colerne in a Hastings that it occurred. The Handley Page Hastings did not conform to Perf A standards and there was a perilous gap between Vr and Flaps up safety speed. In a heavily laden craft the unwritten drill for EFATO was to put the nose down Bannerdown Hill and aim at Bath Abbey until the ASI quivered up to the approved 3 engine speed. In those days a practice EFATO could be initiated by bottling one of the four Bristol Hercules engines without any disastrous effects (a practice continued for a while on the Herc until they realised that the remaining three Allison turbo props at max throttle would take you straight to the scene of the accident!) Anyway that night Taff reached forward at take off and retarded a throttle. There ensued a frenzy of activity whereby the Co misidentified the HP cock of the engine and switched off the adjacent one. The Engineer saw the HP cock off and retarded the appropriate throttle on his own panel and switched off the wrong LP cock . The Captain was now double asymmetric and tried to restart an engine which they all cocked up and the remaining engine spluttered to a halt for want of fuel. The mighty Hastings was then utterly quiet in the night sky apart from the wind blowing over its wings when a dry Welsh voice intoned. "Rrright! Now will everrybody put everrything back where they found it!"

[Old Bricks]

Pakistani exchange QFI - "Old Bricks, you are trying to kill me....again!"

[Haraka]

Dougie M Thank you so much for retelling that classic story. I heard it at Farnborough c.1970 in Southern Squadron word-for-word and it is great to see it properly recorded in writing after all these years.

[mcdhu]

QFI to Bloggs (me) briefing a JP 4 aeros trip.
"Barrel rolls are like t1ts, some like 'em big and some like 'em small"
mcdhu

[Fonsini]

Robin Olds recounts a similar tale from the days after the war when he served as an exchange pilot on an RAF Meteor squadron (ultimately becoming the first american to command an RAF squadron I believe).

On being instructed by a slightly plummy sounding RAF flying officer regarding the Meteor's controls, he was advised as follows regarding the engine start procedure:

"Now do you see these two things here old chap, well when you want to start an engine you just have to push one of the t!ts...."

Olds was said to be more than comfortable adopting the new abbreviated term for an "engine start push button".

[BEagle]

Anyway that night Taff reached forward at take off and retarded a throttle. There ensued a frenzy of activity whereby the Co misidentified the HP cock of the engine and switched off the adjacent one. The Engineer saw the HP cock off and retarded the appropriate throttle on his own panel and switched off the wrong LP cock . The Captain was now double asymmetric and tried to restart an engine which they all cocked up and the remaining engine spluttered to a halt for want of fuel. The mighty Hastings was then utterly quiet in the night sky

HP and LP cocks in a piston-engined aircraft? I don't think so...

There is no way a Hastings would have remained airborne with so many engines failed / mishandled; I simply don't believe this tale.

Neither would a single engine shut down any time after V1 have been a problem for the C-130.

[Danny42C]

BEagle (#75),

Well spotted, Sir ! When did a Herc ever have Allison engines ?...

(#70)..."Herc until they realised that the remaining three Allison turbo props" !....

I give you Wikipedia (Specifications):


Powerplant: 4 × Bristol Hercules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Hercules) 106 14-cylinder two-row air-cooled radial engines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine), 1,675 hp (1,249 kW) each.

I should think that our Chugalug will be "up in arms" when he reads of this calumny on the Queen of The Skies !

D.

[ExAscoteer]

When did a Herc ever have Allison engines ?...

(#70)..."Herc until they realised that the remaining three Allison turbo props" !....



Albert has always had Allison engines. Specifically variants of the Allison T56 Turbo-prop. Indeed the T56 was specifically developed for the Herc.

The current C-130J (or 'Super Hercules') has Rolls-Royce AE2100 Turbo-props but these themselves are a derivative of the Allison AE 1107C-Liberty, Allison being now part of Rolls-Royce North America.

[Brian 48nav]

With all due respect, I think you've got your Herc' and Hastings mixed up.

The Herc' K model had Allison engines with IIRC Hamilton props - being a lowly Nav' who left 'The Mob' in '73 I think I'm right.

The Hastings had Hercules engines - Bristol?

[ExAscoteer]

a practice continued for a while on the Herc until they realised that the remaining three Allison turbo props at max throttle would take you straight to the scene of the accident!

Having an engine shut down on Albert above Vr does not present any issues with handling (since Vr is > Vmca1). The reason that routine engine shutdowns to simulate engine failures (practice assymetric) were banned on Albert was the loss of XV198 at Colerne in Sep 1973 which, while overshooting practice assymetric lost a second engine at 400ft.

During my time on Albert you only ever got to see practice assymetric once during the OCU (Ex 3 IIRC), and that was done straight and level in the cruise.

At all other times assymetric (whether single or double) was simulated assymetric ie the power levers were retarded to set zero torque.

[Fareastdriver]

On the V force in the sixties the procedure after an engine fire was to go through the motions for the affected engine and then shut down the adjacent one to cater for debris, fire spread etc.. On practices one would go through the motions for the affected engine and then retard the adjacent and carry out a two-engine approach and landing. The thrust line was sufficiently close to the centreline for you to be able to carry out a two engines on one side overshoot.

Ken Baker was overseeing his co-pilot carrying out this procedure in a Vulcan 2. That's when they found out that the rudder on the 2 couldn't contain the yaw of two Olympus's on one side at full chat.................

[BEagle]

ExAscoteer, the practices in earlier years were somewhat more demanding. Whilst on UAS Summer Camp at Thorney Island in 1970, I went for a trip in a C-130. It was an MCT trip and the co-pilot was flying - we'd literally just got airborne when the captain reached up and T-handled the #1 engine....

:hmm:

[roving]

apologies posted on the wrong forum

[Pontius Navigator]

Les Baker was overseeing his co-pilot carrying out this procedure in a Vulcan 2. That's when they found out that the rudder on the 2 couldn't contain the yaw of two Olympus's on one side at full chat.................

Ken Baker.

At the time of this crash the Vulcan was operated to 104% take-off power, later it was restricted to cruise power which was quite adequate.

I am sure BEagle can retell the proper throttle management for a roller after a simulated engine failure. While it is correct that there was insufficient rudder authority the problem was the live engines had a more rapid response to throttle movement than the two at idle.

I wonder how many fatalities were caused from practising asymmetric than actually occurred for real? How many actual asymmetric incidents were saved from previous practise? I know the later figure is probably too difficult to assess, but in addition to the notorious Meteor and Canberra crashes, the Vulcan one mentioned, I know of a Valetta one, essentially the same as the Hastings one above where the wrong engines were shut down. The Kegworth crash was also mishandling but was an actual emergency.
.

[Danny42C]

TO ALL CONCERNED,

Brian 48nav (#78) is right ! I've got my Hastings and Hercs in a twist ! Put it down to Senile Decay. Apologies for any confusion caused !

Danny.

[Old-Duffer]

Re post 80/83, I understand that Ken Baker did something similar in a Valiant, when he was a sqn ldr and was v-lucky to get away with it.

We are just a month away from the 53rd anniversary of his playing the same trick in a Vulcan B2.

O-D

[50+Ray]

During my Vulcan time I do not recall any occasions when I rolled from an asymmetric approach. A simulated Double Engine Failure After Take off was initiated by throttling back the pair on one side. After a routine heavyweight circuit and instrument approach i believe 93% on the working pair was more than enough for a safe climb away. Asymmetric safety speed was one of those things demonstrated on an early OCU sortie, never approached again in real life.
OCU QFIs may well correct me, but I never found the excess power available a problem. Was roller from asymmetric landing demoed on the OCU? Too long ago for my memory.

[reynoldsno1]

My 1st ever PAR in a JP3 - not briefed, as the Lincolnshire weather had turned for the worse after a bright start to the flight.
Landed, after a fashion, but with a lot of moisture shed from the pores. Taxying in carefully, as visibility was an issue.
"Well, r1, your first instrument approach, eh? Reminded me of a Shakespeare play"
Thinks ...
"Ah, 'As You Like It' sir..."
" Err, I was thinking of the 'Comedy of Errors' actually..."

[parabellum]

Polish fighter pilot WW2, later QFI RAF and civilian instructor to ab initio service pilots. Aircraft lands after a dual sortie, instructor and student dismount;


Instructor: "What does your mother call you Taylor?"


Taylor: "Michael Sir",


Instructor: "Well Michael, you're chopped".

[Pontius Navigator]

50 Ray, I see you are a little younger than me so you were obviously on the OCO much later than this. Ron Dick had also recovered from a similar situation a little earlier when his sqn cdr managed to loose a wheel which bounced through the QRA dispersal.

I think you are right about not rolling but that does not mean that experienced captains will not do an overshoot if their co-pilot's need more practise. Ken was an experienced sqn cdr, except his experience was not on Vulcan and he was a brand new sqn cdr.

As you say, 2 at 93% and 2 on flight idle was enough but 2 at 104% was way too much.

[BEagle]

A 4-e roller following a 2-e approach was only flown with an OCU QFI as captain. It was part of the Intermediate Co-pilot Course. I can clearly remember that part of that trip: "I have control" followed by the OCU boss carefully and deliberately going through the procedure - zero scope for error!

Following the landing, all engines were brought to idle, the nosewheel placed on the RW and the rudder trim centred. Then the engines were cautiously brought up to the normal take-off setting; once airborne only 80% was needed for climbing into the visual circuit and 72% when level. In the latter part of the visual approach on 4-e, only 66% was needed, then hi-drag airbrake at 300' decelerating from approach to threshold speed.

With a DEFATO, once the landing gear was up and pattern speed achieved, 93% would give a climb rate of about 1500 ft/min.

[ACW418]

53 years ago - my how time flies. For the record Ken Baker was not doing a roller at the time of the accident. It is believed the co-pilot came heads up below 200 ft and got confused by the bright starlit night and the airfied lights and overshot. The inevitable happened. Also for the record I was at dinner when it happened and the result was horrendous. There were other issues which are better left untold now.

ACW

[DGAC]

Another story about the Hastings and Taff John

The Hastings was a bit of a handful, especially during the approach and landing, when the handling pilot needed both hands on the control column and then asked the Flight Engineer to select the desired power setting, using his own RPM and power levers. By the commencement of the approach RPMs were max, and hence just the Boost settings were called for. On an ideal approach, and from memory the sequence of calls was:

"Two-six inches engineer"
followed further down the approach by
"Two-two inches engineer"
followed by
"One-eight inches engineer"
and finally at the point of roundout
"Slow Cut engineer
When the handling pilot started the roundout and the Flight Engineer slowly brought the throttles to idle power.

With luck, the aircraft would then settle, but more often than not - BOUNCE

During a copilot trainining sortie, with Taff as the instructor, Taff finished the sortie after a runway kangaroo by the copilot with the words:

Copilot, the call is "Slow Cut" not OH ****" !!

[Pontius Navigator]

DGAC, during a round dispersal CT sortie the QFI to stn cdr after approach at Lyneham said "if that was at Lindholme you would have hit the boundary fence"

Back at Lindholme he hit the boundary fence.

Never a truer word.

[KG86]

I was a stude, learning to fly helicopters on the Whirlwind (big aircraft, single jet engine which could, and was often, flown with a manual throttle!).

Trip 4, and I am wobbling back towards dispersal at Tern Hill. Both of us are wearing throat mics, combined with a bad aircraft intercom.

QHI says to me "Have you seen a Hover Engine Off yet?" I reply no. "You need to see one... crackle...... solo." He takes control, then says "Put your hand.. crackle... Speed Select ..crackle.." So I put my hand on the Speed Select Lever [like an automatic throttle]. He goes on "crackle... crackle ... retard it rapidly...crackle.." I look at QHI, QHI looks at me and nods his head. So I rapidly retard the SSL to Ground.

There is a scream from the QHI, the ac lurches around, controls move in a blur and we hit the ground like a jangling sack of spuds.

After a short period of silence, QHI says "F*** me, that one was for real. What I said ..crackle...crackle.. on the count of three, retard the Speed Select... crackle.."

Ah. But at least I got a tick for a Hover Engine Off demo!

[RetiredBA/BY]

Overheard in standards office at a long ago jet refresher school:

Senior QFI has just completed a FHT on V senior officer and is completing " assessment of ability" on report.

QFI looks at VSO then writes Ab. which he then crosses out and writes "average".

Hang on, says VSO, you were going to write "above average", why the change of mind?

No sir, says QFI, I was going to write abysmal but I couldn't spell it !

[layman]

Or it could be silence.

Told this tale by a 2FTS QFI

One of his students missed an item or two in his pre-start cockpit checks. A bit of prompting and he got it. Same for the post-start.

And then again at the runway hold point. No more prompting. Flight cancelled.

Was told it was a very quiet taxi back to dispersal.

[oldbeefer]

KG86 - am I missing something?

[KG86]

O-B,

I guess my crackles got in the way of the story!

What he had actually said to me was, 'On the count of 3, pull the Speed Select Lever back.' He was then going to count '3... 2... 1... Pull'. He would then be ready for the rapid yaw, sideways movement and descent.

Because I pulled it back with no countdown, as I hadn't heard that bit due to the crackling intercom, he was completely wrong-footed, and faced with a 'real' no-notice, engine-off in the hover, an extremely challenging exercise in that ac.

Hence his bon-mot 'F*** me, that one was for real.' It was a remarkably calm response, bearing in mind my actions.

[ShyTorque]

A similar thing happened to an ex-QHI colleague of mine. The pre-brief went along the following lines, as per the SOP:

Student was to handle the throttle whilst the QHI flew the aircraft throughout. The run in was at 120 kts and 200 ft agl (might have been lower, it was a very long time ago). The aircraft was to be "zoom" climbed and a variable flare EOL carried out to the airfield (again Tern Hill).

Commands from the QHI were to be: "Identify the throttle" (student to reach up and to place hand on throttle, situated on overhead panel).

Then QHI: "On my command, 3-2-1 NOW!" (On NOW! the student was to fully retard the throttle).

What happened was: "Identify the throttle" - Student reaches up, grabs throttle and retards it!

Gazelle incapable of reaching airfield....but thankfully it was a safe, albeit embarrassing, landing in the adjacent farm field.

[BEagle]

There can also be problems when the instructor has a significant foreign accent....

During an early ciné weave sortie ("Co..........mmence. Track, track, throttle back, roll, airbrake, power") with our French exchange officer, I was at the 'power, stage when he announced "Poweurre eurff", which surprised me. So I did as he instructed and closed the throttle, whereupon the lead Hunter disappeared upwards and we knocked it off....

"Non, non - I say poweurre eurrpp, not poweurre eurff!" he explained...:\

Great chap, but the crew room would go IMC with garlic when he opened the lunch box his wife had provided! Normally on asked one's instructor whether he would like a coffee during the debrief; Roger would always reply "Non, merci. But eef you 'ave a little red wine...??". So one day towards the end of the course, that's what I offered him after an ACM trip. It was accepted with alacrity!

Another TWU instructor was a Luftwaffe exchange pilot. One day he went off with his student for an ACM 1v1 trip. "Outwards turn for combat...go" "Inwards turn...go!" was quickly followed by his student calling "Splash, knock it off" as he sat firmly in the Luftwaffe mate's six. So they set up for another run....with the same result. After which his student called "Just like the war, eh Reiner?"....

The reason for his success was that the said student was in fact a highly capable Gnat QFI on his way to flying the Jaguar!

[ShyTorque]

A certain French exchange QHI at Shawbury often had temporary difficulty finding the correct words. According to a fellow student, in the late stages of an eventful engine off landing in the Whirlwind, the words had been something like:

"Pull up more on ze... Pull up more on ze, er...!

"Boing!"

"Ze collectif!"

[BEagle]

On the Vulcan OCU, we had to get the 'challenge and response' checks word perfect...

Some USAF exchange pilot was in the RHS. Came the co-pilot's left-to-right checks:

"Engine Air Switches?"

"Off"

"No...."

"Shut"

"Still No...."

"CLOSED, SHUT, OFF whatever...NOT goddam ON!"

[oldbeefer]

SHY - HaHa! Did a similar thing with Dave R***y, but we did just creep in over the fence.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, wasn't there something like 53 ways for off, closed, shut, no pressure, up, down, left, right, push, pull for the switch process? A co-pilot wrote a ditty on it.

[MNRAF]

On the Vulcan OCU, we had to get the 'challenge and response' checks word perfect... . . . .
Did a lot of them go on to be Cathay instructors? :E

[ACW418]

On take off on the Vulcan the correct response was 1,3 and 4 on 2 off. This was because no 2 engine air had no pressure regulation to allow cross feed starts to the other engines. One day when very inexperienced I got the on and off positions mixed up although my responses were correct. The net result was the bootstrap turbine oversped on full throttle on take off and we all nearly blew out our ear drums. I was not popular and was made to sit at another table to eat the post flight meal.

ACW

[Tashengurt]

ShyTorque,
I can't help wondering how many things there are that you'd want to pull up on in that situation?
Surely the context said it all?!

[Danny42C]

À propos of nothing in particular, the honour of the attempted asymmetric roller to end all asymmetric rollers should surely go to the Middleton Ghost (name forgotten) who, seeing he was going to go off the far end after an attempt at an asymmetric Meteor landing at MSG, whacked open the good one and described a wide arc through the camp before meeting his own room in the Mess, through the window of which he inserted the nose.

Might have got away with it, too, but the aircraft took out a lot of the supporting brickwork, and (in the words of John Henderson, an ATC oppo of mine, in the Tower at the time: "The lintel fell on his Swede").

John was later SATCO of Teeside airport (MSG that was). Seems the stude's Ghost haunts the West Wing of the (now) St. George's Hotel to this day.

So the story goes.

[Herod]

Danny. In my old airline, we used to stop in the hotel. Our attempt to persuade the female cabin crew that their rooms were haunted and they should share with us didn't work ( at least, not for me. I can't speak for the young First Officers).

[SASless]

À propos of nothing in particular, the honour of the attempted asymmetric roller to end all asymmetric rollers should surely go to the Middleton Ghost (name forgotten) who, seeing he was going to go off the far end after an attempt at an asymmetric Meteor landing at MSG, whacked open the good one and described a wide arc through the camp before meeting his own room in the Mess, through the window of which he inserted the nose.

Might have got away with it, too, but the aircraft took out a lot of the supporting brickwork, and (in the words of John Henderson, an ATC oppo of mine, in the Tower at the time: "The lintel fell on his Swede").

John was later SATCO of Teeside airport (MSG that was). Seems the stude's Ghost haunts the West Wing of the (now) St. George's Hotel to this day.

So the story goes.


I kept looking for that nice fellow while living there flying for Bristow out to the Ekofisk in T-Birds.

The only thing that scared me there was the thought I would get the wrong wake up order....and find myself looking at a Glass of Warm Milk and Smoked Kippers.

It was also said what a nice Chap he was for seeing that not only was it his own room he destroyed...but also his automobile in the car park as he passed through on the way to his room.

[ShyTorque]

ShyTorque,
I can't help wondering how many things there are that you'd want to pull up on in that situation?
Surely the context said it all?!

Don't you believe it....my one and only incident whilst instructing on the Gazelle occurred when my fairly experienced student (actually someone else's student until that trip) pulled the cyclic hard back when he should have been raising the collective to cushion the touchdown. That resulted in a slight "Boing"......and a subsequent slight bollocking for me, for not being quick enough to stop him doing it!

[ShyTorque]

I know someone who thinks he met the Middleton St. George ghost, in the gents loo! Mind you, he was once in the Royal Navy. I think the ghost is meant to be of a Plt Off. Norman, the ill fated pilot. He supposedly took out his own MG, which was the only car in the car park.

[Rasputin412]

My most memorable response from a student came when flying a 'Practice Double Engine Failure' in Snowdonia. The Shawbury stude was used to flying these over a very nice, flat, Shropshire - not down the side of a mountain. Into wind was down the slope. As we mirrored the surface, like on a ski-jump slowly getting closer and closer to the slope, I looked across at the wide-eyed student and asked 'what are you thinking?' to which the response was " I don't know sir - I've run out of ideas" - followed swiftly by my response "I have control"! At least he was honest!

[Danny42C]

Herod (#109),

Hard luck - should've used more finesse ! This afternoon I've wasted an inordinate length of time trying to trace a relevant tale I told on "Pilot's Brevet" years ago (no problem; I am in "boarding kennels" ["Respite Care"] to let daughter Mary, who takes tender care of me, have a few days to herself with pals in the Lake District). Inmates here all brain dead, so my time is my own. Predictably, "Search this Thread" no use at all, Google cannot help, so here it is again, from memory:

During the war, the Grand Hotel in Calcutta would allow through its portals officers and Sgt aircrew (but no other sgts or other ranks); Rs10 a night full board (say 13/-). Only you were in a shared room for two (males only), who you got as a "roomie" was pot luck. On this occasion, I got a friendly young American with an interesting background.
He'd entered the USAAC as a flight cadet (same as me) but got chucked out from Primary with 40 hrs Stearman time, left to go back to civil life (which was his right), trotted round to the China National Aircraft Corporation (that distant forebear of Cathay Pacific), who operated DC-3s "over the Hump" Calcutta-Chunking with American crews - and got taken on as a second dickey !

Really he was little more than a human autopilot minder. His Captain would do the navigation, and all the take-offs and landings. He was there to keep an eye on the autopilot and look out for mountain tops, and for someone the Captain to talk to (and to make the coffee). For this onerous task they were paying him Rs700 a month, which was three times what I was getting as a Sgt Pilot (and getting shot at into the bargain). And I'd completed the very Course that he'd been washed out of ! But it was really "danger" money, for the mountains were about at the ceiling of a heavily loaded freight Dak, weather was dicey and they ploughed in with monotonous regularity.

Now for the beef in the sandwich: occasionally they flew VIPs as well as freight, so of course they then needed a hostie on board. I think they sourced them from Pan Am. In those days it was a top job for a girl, like Top Model today, and there was no lack of applicants: naturally they chose the stunners. For that reason, they never lasted long before they snagged their millionaire, and there was a rapid turnover (no comment, please).The possibilities were obvious: one hairy old Captain devised a Fiendish Plan for each new girl. Picture:

It is a sunny lunchtime; a "slip" crew is chatting idly over coffee on the terrace. the Captain tells a strange story of Old China. Seems that, on another of the Company's routes, they overnight stop somewhere in the firm's "resthouse". This is an old mansion, formerly the residence of the high powered mandarin in charge of the province. Naturally he had a string of concubines, but #1 was getting a bit long in the tooth, #2 was getting more and more attention. This was getting up #1's nose, she consulted the Apothecary, and #2 expired, seemingly of Natural Causes. But the Mandarin queried the verdict, did a bit of digging, and got to the truth. #1 then expired horribly in turn, and #3 took over: what happened to her is not known.

The Spirit of #1, however, did not rest, and on moonlight nights returned to the scene of her former triumphs, and checked the place out to see what was going on. She looked into every bedroom, a girl in bed with a man was no threat to her, but a girl alone was Clear and Present Danger. She appeared to any such, screaming and threatening with claw-like talons to tear her (potential) rival's eyes out. Of course, being only a spirit, she could not in fact do any harm, but the performance was so vivid that the victim (who, oddly, was the only one who could see or hear anything) was reduced to a piteous mass of abject terror, packed her bags and left.

But of course, these superstitious Chinese will believe anything, won't they ? Another coffee all round ? .................Nothing more was said about the story.

What the Captain knew, but kept to himself, was that his crew were due to be swapped onto this very route in a couple of weeks.. Again, nothing was said, and after dinner the hostie retired to her virginal couch at one end of the corridor, the chaps to the other. Now you know how these old wooden buildings creak and groan with the fall in temperature: the night birds call eerily; moonlight shadows move as the night breezes rustle the trees .... and the girl remembers the story. She tries to put it out of her mind. But auto-suggestion is very powerful, pretty soon she is visited by the Demon .... The Captain (whose room is, by chance, nearest to hers) lights a cigarette and waits ...... Eventually a terrified little waif scratches at his door, begging for sanctuary in his bed. .... Let Conscience be your Guide !

In the light of dawn, the now throughly ashamed hostie gives up her job and returns to the States. Her replacement comes out, on a sunny terrace with a coffee .......

Neat, eh ? True ? How do I know ? It's just what he told me.

[exMudmover]

Early 80s at TTTE. Student Pilot solo supersonic run (flown at 2000ft over the North Sea), Rather inexperienced Staff Nav in the back.

With wings 45 stude selects reheat and electric jet leaps forward , (clean jet, no tanks, no pylons). As speed winds through about 550 kt, Nav calls:

“Check Wingsweep!”

In response Stude grabs WS lever and moves it the wrong way, selecting 25 wing instead of 67. Jet instantly climbs about 1500ft.

Slightly bent jet flown carefully back to base, Staff Nav ruminating on choice of words.

[Herod]

Lovely story Danny. If only we had that sort of time. Sadly, 60 min report before departure can't compete with a couple of hours on a sunny terrace. :)

[SASless]

Shy,

I can recall a very similar down the mountain ride...except it was for real....and I was both the senior guy and at the controls.....and pretty near out of usable ideas.

The running account would sound boring out of context....but it was a very near thing but turned out okay at the bottom....barely.

I would much rather have gained the benefit of that experience by means of some idle chitchat over Tea in the Pilot's Ready Room as compared to the way I did.

That was another time I managed to droop the Rotor RPM on a Chinook to the point the Generators dropped off line.

[Fareastdriver]

I've told this story once before but here it is again:

The beginning of August 1967, 230 Sqn morning prayers. Dave Todd, the boss, used to give a question to one of the pilots and today it was Eric Smart's turn.
'You are flying back from the Plain at 200 ft downwind and the engine stops. What do you do?
'Easy,' says Eric, 'do a full flare until about 45 knots, wrack it around into wind and do a constant attitude engine off landing.'
'You can't do that,' says the boss.
'Of course you can, chorused the crowd in the briefing room.
225 and 230 Squadrons had both gone out to Borneo from Germany and practised this procedure. Dave Todd was ex FEAF in Singapore who did not.
'Right. says Chunky (ex 225).' He rubs out the days flying programme and puts everybody in the room on a 20 minute LL EOLs training sortie with him.

I am about No3. I climb in the RHS with Chunky in the LHS. We take off and Chunky knows that I can do them so we go straight into the first one. Downwind in the middle of Odiham airfield, 200ft, 90 knots. He asks me if I am ready, I say OK and he pulls the speed select. I do it as previously described and on the ground he announces that he is going to do one.

Off we go, not quite 200ft (180), not quite 90 knots and he tells me to pull the lever. There is, as far as I am concerned, no problem, I had done them from lower than that. He was pattering, as QHIs do until we reached 45 knots and then he turned. Left; A Whirlwind in that position will only let you get away with it when you turn right.

I knew something was wrong because the patter dried up. The aircraft was fighting against the turn and by the time we were into wind we had about 160ft and zero airspeed. Chunky stuffed the nose down to try and get some knots so we plummeted down towards the grass. At the last moment he pulled back, which made no difference to the rate of descent or the airspeed and we three-pointed onto the ground.

It did not feel very hard but the starboard undercarriage had collapsed so I watched in fascination as the rotor blades slapped on the ground and eventually we came to rest on the starboard side.

There was then a lot of huffing and puffing from the LHS as Chunky exited through the window. A fraction of a second he was back in because the engine was still running and he had put his face over the jet pipe. He shut down the engine and dived out again followed by me who had tidied up the switches and levers.

We stood outside the wreckage wondering what to do and guess who was first to arrive. Air Vice Marshall Micky Martin, AOC 38 Group. He had just arrived outside his HQ during his first week in charge and was the closest to the prang.

We were shut up in a room in the squadron to sort a story out but there was not a lot we could do. The aircraft was left for about five days providing an excellent scenario from the officer's mess bar windows. XR478 was the first aircraft with a monstrosity known as the package winch that was attached to the starboard side. This had been forced into the frames and stringers so the aircraft was a write-off. Chunky knew everybody on the B o I and he was effectively the expert witness. He got away with an AOC's reprimand.

[Herod]

Blimey. How to take the memory back fifty years with just three names. Dave Todd, Eric Smart and Chunky. I believe Chunky sadly passed away many years ago. Any ideas of the other two?

[D120A]

Herod, please see your PMs.

[ShyTorque]

SHY - HaHa! Did a similar thing with Dave R***y, but we did just creep in over the fence.

Old Beefer, You did it to Riggers, or vice versa? :ok:

SAS, that wasn't my story, it seems to have been a Mad Monk wot did it.

[SASless]

Old Beefer, You did it to Riggers, or vice versa? :ok:

SAS, that wasn't my story, it seems to have been a Mad Monk wot did it.

Sorry.....old age and no reading glasses did me in!

[8028410q]

Words to me in 1984, 18 Course, 7 FTS, Church Fenton.. "well, Bob, as far as I'm concerned, you're chopped...."
Are there any other variants of the 'you're chopped' that our esteemed readers have heard or used on those unfortunate ones?

[rolling20]

When chopped I was told by the Boss, that he would like to keep me on for entertainment purposes etc...but the rules didn't allow it!

[ORAC]

As one of my colleagues regularly reminds me, at the end of the first session where I had him as a student (he subsequently passed); I had him get two mugs of coffee, sat back on the other side of the table and said, "well Paul, there are other jobs in the RAF....."

[ian16th]

An odd item about Danny's haunted St George Hotel.

For the 1966 Football World Cup it hosted the North Korean football team.

[oldbeefer]

SHY - Riggers pulled it on me! The other time I 'just crept over the fence' was on my CFS(H) acceptance ride with the Boss - we were running in towards Ternhill, I pulled the throttle on him. He entered auto, looked at the airfield, looked at me, folded his arms and said 'I want nothing to do with this'.

[[email protected]]

ISTR you did something similar to me on my QHI course... put a massive student error in for me to take control on an EOL, then chopped the throttle and sat back to watch......

[oldbeefer]

crab - really!!!!!!

[Fortissimo]

The first 5 students I flew with as a new QFI on the JP all tried to kill me one way or another. In addition to trying to spin out of a stall recovery, student #2 (who became a very average ATCO shortly thereafter) caught me out with his novel crosswind landing technique. I had unwisely let him continue the landing as we were not quite halfway over the downwind side of the runway, and was totally unprepared for him kicking off the drift by using full rudder in the wrong direction. I took control (too late, obviously) and slammed the mighty Viper to fully loud (it was a Mk 3 JP...). I then showed student #2 that it was possible to nibble the light buffet whilst exiting the runway 30 degrees of heading at 0.5 feet, carefully avoiding the runway edge lights, which appeared to be about 14ft high. Student #2's comment: "That was fun, wasn't it Sir?!" QFI comment, from B2 list of useful phrases: "No, you c**t"

[Timelord]

Words to me in 1984, 18 Course, 7 FTS, Church Fenton.. "well, Bob, as far as I'm concerned, you're chopped...."
Are there any other variants of the 'you're chopped' that our esteemed readers have heard or used on those unfortunate ones?

Nav School Finningley - early 90s and the first female students were going through. One was allegedly chopped with the words: " Well, the good news is you'll make someone a wonderful wife and mother"

[ShyTorque]

SHY - Riggers pulled it on me! The other time I 'just crept over the fence' was on my CFS(H) acceptance ride with the Boss - we were running in towards Ternhill, I pulled the throttle on him. He entered auto, looked at the airfield, looked at me, folded his arms and said 'I want nothing to do with this'. I like your Boss's style!

My saving grace after my student "franged"us (only the slightest touch, your Honour) at Ternhill was that the new Sqn Cdr (in post only that very day) and his student Cat 3'd their aircraft 100 yards away some twenty minutes later. Very much like CG did after their Norwegian whiteout episode, I eventually gave them a lift home to Shawbury and I think theirs went back on a low-loader.

[oldbeefer]

SHY - the Boss was Barry P and, in retrospect, I think his actual words may have been slightly more colourful!

[Basil]

. . . . . I took control (too late, obviously) and slammed the mighty Viper to fully loud . . . .
I do recollect, as a stude, that an idling Viper did seem to take an age to produce thrust esp when desperately required. :E

[Fonsini]

I am about No3. I climb in the RHS with Chunky in the LHS. We take off and Chunky knows that I can do them so we go straight into the first one. Downwind in the middle of Odiham airfield, 200ft, 90 knots. He asks me if I am ready, I say OK and he pulls the speed select. I do it as previously described and on the ground he announces that he is going to do one.

Off we go, not quite 200ft (180), not quite 90 knots and he tells me to pull the lever. There is, as far as I am concerned, no problem, I had done them from lower than that. He was pattering, as QHIs do until we reached 45 knots and then he turned. Left; A Whirlwind in that position will only let you get away with it when you turn right.

I knew something was wrong because the patter dried up. The aircraft was fighting against the turn and by the time we were into wind we had about 160ft and zero airspeed. Chunky stuffed the nose down to try and get some knots so we plummeted down towards the grass. At the last moment he pulled back, which made no difference to the rate of descent or the airspeed and we three-pointed onto the ground.

It did not feel very hard but the starboard undercarriage had collapsed so I watched in fascination as the rotor blades slapped on the ground and eventually we came to rest on the starboard side.

There was then a lot of huffing and puffing from the LHS as Chunky exited through the window. A fraction of a second he was back in because the engine was still running and he had put his face over the jet pipe. He shut down the engine and dived out again followed by me who had tidied up the switches and levers.

We stood outside the wreckage wondering what to do and guess who was first to arrive. Air Vice Marshall Micky Martin, AOC 38 Group. He had just arrived outside his HQ during his first week in charge and was the closest to the prang.

We were shut up in a room in the squadron to sort a story out but there was not a lot we could do. The aircraft was left for about five days providing an excellent scenario from the officer's mess bar windows. XR478 was the first aircraft with a monstrosity known as the package winch that was attached to the starboard side. This had been forced into the frames and stringers so the aircraft was a write-off. Chunky knew everybody on the B o I and he was effectively the expert witness. He got away with an AOC's reprimand.

Interestingly, this exact account is now the official version of events on the Aviation Safety Network in respect of the demise of said Whirlwind. They lifted Fareastdriver's post word for word.

ASN Aircraft accident 07-AUG-1967 Westland Whirlwind HAR10 (S-55) XR478 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=158210)

[Dan Winterland]

Are there any other variants of the 'you're chopped' that our esteemed readers have heard or used on those unfortunate ones?

Boss: "Well Dan, the way I see it, you can either become a multi engine pilot, or a smoking hole in a hill".

Me (After a short deliberation): "I'll be a multi-engine pilot sir".

Boss: "Good choice".

[ShyTorque]

"Well, Bloggs, I don't know how the RAF would cope without you - but starting from now, it's going to try!"

[Four Turbo]

When I was being trained (1958) there was a big shortage of Navs. Trainee Pilots were aplenty. Senior staff went around for fatherly talks. "If you were chopped would you go Nav?" Correct answer was "Never", or stronger words to that effect. We lost several good hands who dithered.

[Danny42C]

Off Thread, but this Bon Mot from a Station Commander to his assembled underlings may amuse:

"It has come to my notice that some of you young gentlemen have been inviting into the Mess young ladies of a kind with which you would not normally associate..."

Rather well worded, I thought (I was there).

Danny.

[Haraka]

Following on from Danny's Thread drift.
Grads appeared at the Towers early 70's. At that time the only incoming telephonic communication from the outside world was by telephone to the College Hall porter, who would then tannoy the potential recipient ( and the rest of RAFC ) to come to his desk to take the call. The problem was dress code, as we were supposed to be either in uniform, or suits, to walk the hallowed halls ( apart from Sports afternoons).
The question was raised at a CHM meeting in 1973 . "If I am in the shower, am I supposed to hurriedly dress in a suit in order to dash down to take a call?"
The (IIRC) Wg.Cdr. Eng.PMC's response was very conciliatory.

"Not at all. Under those circumstances ,Sports Jacket and Tie is perfectly acceptable."

I leave you to guess the reaction from the assembled throng.

[JagRigger]

Wrecks & Relics - Aircraft & Airshows Past (http://www.airshowspast.com/wrecks--relics.html)










Was still around in the 80's

[Danny42C]

Haraka (#140),

Supposed to have been a wartime case in Shepheard's Hotel in Cairo, when a young officer was court-martialled for running starkers down a corridor at night.

The defence was: "He was suitably dressed for the sport in which he was engaged !"

[Fareastdriver]

When I was being trained (1958) there was a big shortage of Navs

When I did my assessment in Salisbury, S Rhodesia they offered me a post as a navigator instead of my wish to be a pilot because of a problem with my sight. I dithered but my father, ex RAF pilot, said.
"If you are going to be killed in an aeroplane you may as well be flying it."

I went to a high class optician who declared that there was nothing wrong with my eyes so I went back to the RAF. Another assessment, this time as a pilot.

Interestingly, this exact account is now the official version of events on the Aviation Safety Network

Who was the third person in the aeroplane?

[Jhieminga]

Interestingly, this exact account is now the official version of events on the Aviation Safety Network in respect of the demise of said Whirlwind. They lifted Fareastdriver's post word for word.

ASN Aircraft accident 07-AUG-1967 Westland Whirlwind HAR10 (S-55) XR478 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=158210)
Don't blame the ASN site owner. The site has two databases and this accident is in the Wikibase so it was most likely one of our own from PPRuNe who copied it across.

[Herod]

That Wrecks and Relics page (post 141), has Wessex XT677 on it. My last flight on the OCU was on that airframe, brand-new from Westlands. 12 Apr '67. At least, so far, I've survived in better condition.

[megan]

Pardon the slight thread drift, but with the tales of instructor daring do I'm forced to inquire. Scuttlebutt had it that you chaps did EOLs in the Whirlwind to the ground without using collective, by running it on in the flare on the rear wheels. Truth is what?

[BEagle]

All these posts from people who used to fly those awful clattering devices merely go to prove that, not only are helicopters dangerous bloody things, but QHIs are too....:p

[Fareastdriver]

by running it on in the flare on the rear wheels. Truth is what?
It's possible. but not intentionally. I did it myself on my second solo flight on the Whirlwind.

I had an indicated engine fire at 200ft so being new I went through the full fire drill which included shutting down the engine. By pure luck I arrived at a field at about 45 knots only to find it straddled with power lines. This encouraged a GodAlmighty flare and I stopped, levelled the aircraft and I was on the ground with virtually zero speed.

I got a Green Endorsement; Bacchus got lots of thanks.

Flash forward seven or so years and I landed at Crossmaglen in Armagh, unloaded and reloaded and took off with BOTH fire lights on. I knew why but the VSO in the jump seat didn't and he was having kittens.

[teeteringhead]

The thread is already drifting a bit, so I feel happy to add a bon mot from a student. Some decades ago, when I was that "dangerous bloody thing" a QHI (thanks BEags), I was doing an out-of-phase check or refresher on the mighty Wessex for the Staish, fine chap (now deceased) D*** S******.

The sortie was "circuits and emergencies" at the Secret Shropshire Helicopter Base; since the Staish had last flown the Queen Mother of the Skies, a check of IFF selection had been added at the end of the after take-off checks. The Staish kept missing this out; cue smart@ss crewman - sorry: diligent downstairs professional - declaring on each occasion:

"With the IFF at Standby, your checks are complete Sir!"

Grumbling noise from Staish, followed by:

"Crewman: the IFF IS at standby and will remain so for the rest of the sortie. I shall not mention it again and would be grateful if you did not either!!"

Nice one Sir! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Nav on Chinook sqn to Boss, "Boss, I've decided to PVR."

"D, that is the best decision of your life."

Sadly perhaps the only one as he was killed in a light aircraft crash not long afterwards.

[charliegolf]

Nav on Chinook sqn to Boss, "Boss, I've decided to PVR."

"D, that is the best decision of your life."

Sadly perhaps the only one as he was killed in a light aircraft crash not long afterwards.

PN, was that the crash out of Popham?

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

I suspect it was, DN

[charliegolf]

Knew him on 230 in Germany.

[Pontius Navigator]

CG, can you send me a link?

Looked after his dog once.

[Fonsini]

Who was the third person in the aeroplane?

Obviously a typo as I'm pretty sure you would have noticed someone hiding back there.

In spite of that little slip ASN is regarded by many as the go-to resource for accident investigation information, I think it's a bit of a feather in the cap to have your account become unofficial record on the incident, but then that's just me. Nevertheless I was impressed.

[HHornet]

Herod (#109),

Hard luck - should've used more finesse ! This afternoon I've wasted an inordinate length of time trying to trace a relevant tale I told on "Pilot's Brevet" years ago (no problem; I am in "boarding kennels" ["Respite Care"] to let daughter Mary, who takes tender care of me, have a few days to herself with pals in the Lake District). Inmates here all brain dead, so my time is my own. Predictably, "Search this Thread" no use at all, Google cannot help, so here it is again, from memory:

During the war, the Grand Hotel in Calcutta would allow through its portals officers and Sgt aircrew (but no other sgts or other ranks); Rs10 a night full board (say 13/-). Only you were in a shared room for two (males only), who you got as a "roomie" was pot luck. On this occasion, I got a friendly young American with an interesting background.
He'd entered the USAAC as a flight cadet (same as me) but got chucked out from Primary with 40 hrs Stearman time, left to go back to civil life (which was his right), trotted round to the China National Aircraft Corporation (that distant forebear of Cathay Pacific), who operated DC-3s "over the Hump" Calcutta-Chunking with American crews - and got taken on as a second dickey !

Really he was little more than a human autopilot minder. His Captain would do the navigation, and all the take-offs and landings. He was there to keep an eye on the autopilot and look out for mountain tops, and for someone the Captain to talk to (and to make the coffee). For this onerous task they were paying him Rs700 a month, which was three times what I was getting as a Sgt Pilot (and getting shot at into the bargain). And I'd completed the very Course that he'd been washed out of ! But it was really "danger" money, for the mountains were about at the ceiling of a heavily loaded freight Dak, weather was dicey and they ploughed in with monotonous regularity.

Now for the beef in the sandwich: occasionally they flew VIPs as well as freight, so of course they then needed a hostie on board. I think they sourced them from Pan Am. In those days it was a top job for a girl, like Top Model today, and there was no lack of applicants: naturally they chose the stunners. For that reason, they never lasted long before they snagged their millionaire, and there was a rapid turnover (no comment, please).The possibilities were obvious: one hairy old Captain devised a Fiendish Plan for each new girl. Picture:

It is a sunny lunchtime; a "slip" crew is chatting idly over coffee on the terrace. the Captain tells a strange story of Old China. Seems that, on another of the Company's routes, they overnight stop somewhere in the firm's "resthouse". This is an old mansion, formerly the residence of the high powered mandarin in charge of the province. Naturally he had a string of concubines, but #1 was getting a bit long in the tooth, #2 was getting more and more attention. This was getting up #1's nose, she consulted the Apothecary, and #2 expired, seemingly of Natural Causes. But the Mandarin queried the verdict, did a bit of digging, and got to the truth. #1 then expired horribly in turn, and #3 took over: what happened to her is not known.

The Spirit of #1, however, did not rest, and on moonlight nights returned to the scene of her former triumphs, and checked the place out to see what was going on. She looked into every bedroom, a girl in bed with a man was no threat to her, but a girl alone was Clear and Present Danger. She appeared to any such, screaming and threatening with claw-like talons to tear her (potential) rival's eyes out. Of course, being only a spirit, she could not in fact do any harm, but the performance was so vivid that the victim (who, oddly, was the only one who could see or hear anything) was reduced to a piteous mass of abject terror, packed her bags and left.

But of course, these superstitious Chinese will believe anything, won't they ? Another coffee all round ? .................Nothing more was said about the story.

What the Captain knew, but kept to himself, was that his crew were due to be swapped onto this very route in a couple of weeks.. Again, nothing was said, and after dinner the hostie retired to her virginal couch at one end of the corridor, the chaps to the other. Now you know how these old wooden buildings creak and groan with the fall in temperature: the night birds call eerily; moonlight shadows move as the night breezes rustle the trees .... and the girl remembers the story. She tries to put it out of her mind. But auto-suggestion is very powerful, pretty soon she is visited by the Demon .... The Captain (whose room is, by chance, nearest to hers) lights a cigarette and waits ...... Eventually a terrified little waif scratches at his door, begging for sanctuary in his bed. .... Let Conscience be your Guide !

In the light of dawn, the now throughly ashamed hostie gives up her job and returns to the States. Her replacement comes out, on a sunny terrace with a coffee .......

Neat, eh ? True ? How do I know ? It's just what he told me.

Danny42C - Brilliant and I am sure that you have lots of these stories to tell - maybe enough for a book ? I do hope that if you have a few days of free time, that you put fingers to the keyboard and get them recorded.

[Danny42C]

HHornet (#156), Thanks !

Have told many such since I came aboard five years ago on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread. Started on Page 114, #2262 et seq. Have been told to "write a book" on occasion, but (a) old fingers far too weak and frail, and (b) think that the market for war books is saturated.

And my war is almost as far in the past for today's youngsters as was the Crimean War for me when "I were a lad". (you don't list your age).

Cheers, Danny.

[ian16th]

And my war is almost as far in the past for today's youngsters as was the Crimean War for me when "I were a lad". (you don't list your age).

Cheers, Danny.

One of those 'frightening' statistics.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I was at a party about 10 years ago and got to talking to an elderly American gentleman. He was a retired USAF fighter pilot and somehow the topic got on to flying instructing. I asked him if he had done an instructor tour during his time in the Air Force.

His response was no, he had never been selected for an IP tour although he had asked for one as his last pre retirement posting. He figured that the powers that be, must have thought him unsuitable as he had flown operationally in WW 2, Korea, and Vietnam, and been shot down in all three wars !

[Beancountercymru]

The Kirby Cadet Mk111 used in Air Cadet gliding was open cockpit and generally communication from bellowed from the instructor in the back seat to his hapless cadet in front, so those at the launch point could often hear these friendly words as it passed over on the final approach.

[Danny42C]

ian16th (#158),
One of those 'frightening' statistics.
Another one: seems London no further from PyongYang than Los Angeles (I read).

If so, the Great Fat Un is as much our worry as Trump's. Uncannily reminiscent of the rise of Hitler in the late thirties - same policy of pushing the boundaries. Who'll "Bell the Cat" this time ?

Danny,

[Wrathmonk]

seems London no further from PyongYang than Los Angeles (I read)

Thread drift alert....about 600 miles shorter to London.

Only difference, an ICBM going west about has (most likely ;)) got to cross a fair size chunk of China and Russia. I don't reckon it will get as far as UK before being dealt with. Followed shortly by the problem in NK going away once and for all.

[Chinny Crewman]

...(I) think that the market for war books is saturated...

Danny,
The last word will never be written on WW2, Richard Overy has recently published a new book on Bomber Command. The appetite is there and your story is definitely worth telling. Maybe get a ghost writer (please?).

[Danny42C]

Chinney Crewman (#163),

My story is out on "Pilot's Brevet" Thread for all who want to read it. It is not a tale of
heroics and "derring-do", which is what a publisher needs for a proper "War Book" to sell.
If I were tempted to self-publish (which, "thank the Lord I'm not sir !"), I would go the Kindle wayto limit my losses.

War Books are still, as you say, being published - but are they being sold ? The clientele will probably be limited to the few of the old-timers who are here already. Look around, how many of our own members are under 50 ?

Over all, I'm too old and too frail to bother any more ! Sorry, Chinney.

Danny.

[BossEyed]

It is not a tale of heroics and "derring-do"...

So you say, Danny. Others may differ. :ok: :D

[MPN11]

So you say, Danny. Others may differ. :ok: :D
Indeed. We have had the privilege, over the last few years, of sharing the 'ordinary' existence of a man who went through extraordinary things [rarely recorded, AFAIK] .. and narrated in an impeccable style. :ok:

To ask Danny, at this stage, to write a book may, perhaps, be asking the gentleman just a little too much. But we, we happy few, have been able to bounce along with his landings [many of which were successful] and watch him transfer from the Gods of the Sky to the irascible Gods of the Ground [ATC]. The tales are told with humility and wit, as befits his heritage, and have enlightened and entertained our smoky cyber-crewroom beyond measure.

Right, Danny, that's your ration of flattery for this week ;)

[Melchett01]

Danny,
The last word will never be written on WW2, Richard Overy has recently published a new book on Bomber Command. The appetite is there and your story is definitely worth telling. Maybe get a ghost writer (please?).

It's a bit of a cheat, but if you can't face putting pen to paper - and let's face it, none of us really enjoyed writing essays or we probably wouldn't be here! - there are people who will do it for you on the basis of sitting down with you and talking over your life, what you've got up to etc. You talk, they listen and write, you approve and job done, book published. I believe they are often used by people wanting to pass a story down through the family, but I'm sure others have gone to print in a more commercial sense. I know we don't do advertising here, but I'm sure a quick search along the lines of 'we write your biography' would turn something up. And it'd be one heck of a read!

[Fonsini]

I was hoping that someone would give truth to the story about an instructor asking a student who seemed to be confused about his altitude:

"well, are the cows getting bigger ?"

[megan]

It is not a tale ofheroics and "derring-do", which is what a publisher needs for a proper "War Book" to sellIt's very unfortunate what you say is true in the commercial world Danny of publishing, but there would be a market, how large is difficult to tell.

A lad from our area flew Hurricanes in the Western Desert and was shot down over Sarajevo later in the war while flying a Spitfire. Became POW and liberated by the Russian and spent best part of a year in their custody before repatriation and demobbing.

Came home to return to his previous life of farming. Died an early death, a result of dysentery after effects suffered in the Western Desert. Used to foul the bed every night his wife wrote. Pilots used to fly just wearing shorts, canopy open due heat, and cockpit would be covered in faeces on return, such was their state. A snippet you wouldn't read in a commercial venture I dare say.

His wife wrote and self published a little compendium of paperback size. No great tales of daring do or heroics in the usually accepted sense, just the story of a bloke like yourself who answered the call, and performed his duty as was asked of him. You do have a story to tell, as elicited in your thread, and one which we doff our caps to. You do have a flair for words Danny, and their use. Every time an individual passes a library burns down.

[Hydromet]

Albert Facey, author of "A Fortunate Life", thought he was just putting down a few words for his children and grandchildren. It turned out to be one of the best books of its genre. I'm sure yours would be the same, Danny.

[son of brommers]

War Books are still, as you say, being published - but are they being sold ? The clientele will probably be limited to the few of the old-timers who are here already. Look around, how many of our own members are under 50 ?
Danny: I'm below the half century mark and make it my mission to get at least one war or mil related book per birthday and Xmas. Carpe Liber and all that..................

[Danny42C]

BossEyed (#165) and MPN11 (#166),

Thank you both for the kind words - and I can lap up any amount of flattery. Keep it up , MPN11 !

''''''''''''''''

Melchett01 (#167),

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinny Crewman

..."Danny,. Maybe get a ghost writer (please?). - there are people who will do it for you on the basis of sitting down with you and talking over your life, what you've got up to etc"...

That's as may be. But do I want him "sitting down with me and talking over my life ?" No I damn' well don't !

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Hydromet (#170),

..."It turned out to be one of the best books of its genre. I'm sure yours would be the same, Danny"...

Thanks for the compliment, but I rather doubt it !

''''''''''''

son of brommers (#171),

..."Danny: I'm below the half century mark"...

"One swallow doth not a summer make" (Aristotle).

..."and make it my mission to get at least one war or mil related book per birthday and Xmas. Carpe Liber and all that" .......

..."my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end"...
(Ecclesiastes 12:12 Parallel Verses King James Version).

(At my age, "Carpe Diem" is more appropriate. No one on "Pilot's Brevet" has made 96 yet AFAIK - keep your fingers crossed).

''''''''''''''''
My thanks to you all for your interest - but, once and for all, I ain't doin' it ! Sorry !

Danny.