RPAS Gongs

[ExStacker]

Quick question to help inform an ongoing happy hour discussion/debate - are there any circumstances in which RPAS operators can be awarded a gong for conducting sorties over an operational theatre while physically being located in UK/US?

[RAF_Techie101]

By all accounts this very question is what's holding up the issue of the Op Shader medal. Personally, I can't see why you'd award them the same medal as the troops on the ground in country.

[Dougie M]

By all accounts the best Gulf Medal award was to the Guards polo team who were training at Happy Valley polo field in Episkopi Cyprus during the hostilities and were deemed to have been within "scud range" from Iraq. They were most surprised when the gongs arrived in the Adj's office.....allegedly.

[Daf Hucker]

By all accounts this very question is what's holding up the issue of the Op Shader medal. Personally, I can't see why you'd award them the same medal as the troops on the ground in country.


Surely that depends on what the medal is issued for. By your definition you'd only get a medal if you were on the ground in the operational area (would you need to be shot at to qualify?).
If on the other hand is that you provided operational effect in support of an operation, then surely that should be recognised. Traditionally, this is done with a medal.
I've nothing to do with RPAS by the way and I worked hard enough at school not to be on the ground in an op area :8

[The B Word]

Or a scribbly dishing out Dollars in fortress KAF...

Or a techie working in jets in mainland Italy for flight over the Balkans...

Or a PTI for running the gym programme at Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi whilst the jets fly over Iraq...

Or the mobile catering chefs supporting the jet efforts over Libya...

The fact is, if you are actively fighting the war by taking life from afar then surely you are as deserving (or maybe more) as the above?

[MPN11]

Surely that depends on what the medal is issued for. By your definition you'd only get a medal if you were on the ground in the operational area (would you need to be shot at to qualify?).
If on the other hand is that you provided operational effect in support of an operation, then surely that should be recognised. Traditionally, this is done with a medal.
I fought GW1 in AFOps in Whitehall, wearing a suit. I thus provided 'Operational Effect', by briefing PM, SofS, CDS, CAS and a few others during proceedings. Indeed, SofS used a sentence of mine in a speech to the House of Commons. :)

However, pi$$ed off though I am after all those 12-hour night shifts and getting no medal, I did no more than someone flogging himself to shreds in a UK Supply Depot shovelling the essential kit out to the front line.

I defer on the RPAS aspect ... that is indeed a conundrum. But I do know, having a mate from the business, that it's rather stressful at times [a.k.a. actually killing people].

[Haraka]

MPN11 I suspect that our paths probably crossed during GW1 (although my team was doing 24 on /48 off throughout). Although I never even thought about any "gong", having( like all of us) mates in theatre. I did have some angst directed against those who had made careers by staying "Close by their desks "etc. who were still busying themselves playing peacetime personal one-upmanship games around the various departments for the duration.

[BEagle]

Hi Haraka - that reminds me of a comment made by some thrusting Sqn Ldr MoD chair-polisher just after the South Atlantic war. He was desperate to go down south; when asked why, he replied "You are no-one in Town if you haven't been there!"

Quelle wanquerre - I hope he was eventually outed for what he was!

[Melchett01]

By all accounts this very question is what's holding up the issue of the Op Shader medal. Personally, I can't see why you'd award them the same medal as the troops on the ground in country.

In that case surely the OSM is the answer, with a clasp for service 'in country' and just the gong for service elsewhere - as per the OSM Afghanistan?

[Melchett01]

Having helped write the criteria for an OSM, I believe the key words at the time were 'risk' and 'rigour'

I always understood that the notion of 'risk & rigour' applied to all gongs for operational service, not just the OSM. That said, I still think we are too parsimonious with operational recognition. Given the ever-increasing demands being levied against personnel, I would favour a relaxation of that principle that recognised operational commitment without insisting that personnel had to live face-down in a puddle for months on end, under fire and having worked at least 20 hrs a day just to warrant consideration for thinking an operation is worthy of recognition. Surely more 'minor' cases of operational service should fall under a more general award rather than a fully fledged campaign or award for operational service? There seems to be precious little we can do for personnel these days, medals being one of the few things that hasn't been farmed out and remains within our gift; let's start using that gift a bit more sensibly to reflect demands of operational service.

[Easy Street]

I would have thought a twin-track approach would solve the problem: a SHADER OSM for those on the ground and the aircrew overhead, a la TELIC and HERRICK, and the GSM 08 with an "Air Ops Daesh" (or other suitably worded) bar for engineers, RPAS crews and others not in the line of fire. Establishing a differential in risk threshold between OSM and GSM would be useful as it would offer a means of recognising service without distorting the existing system too much; over time Army types would still distinguish themselves with a chest full of OSMs, while remote combatants would acquire only bars to a single GSM ribbon. Accumulating days of GSM-earning service would also unlock the ACSM, which would further recognise the enduring contribution made by many remote combatants.

A slight problem: they just need to finish awarding the contract to mint the GSM 08... only 9 years after its inception...

[gijoe]

The obvious answer:

OSM for everyone in Irak and possibly in the other country.

GSM 08 for all those supporting ops, including drone drivers, who have done a great job on SHADER, training teams in other places, other ME dets etc. All AcSM earning.

What is likely to happen?

Irak and other country - you get OSM(which stacks up towards AcSM).

The rest of you unlucky.

If this is the case then there are going to be some mightily annoyed people who have been sent on 'op tours' yet their time away etc won't be recognised.

Cue BS about X-factor etc.

RAF Techie idiot 101 - trotting the line 'should have worked harder at school' makes you look a fool. There are some incredibly capable and sharp individuals of all ranks running around the battlespace, or 'ground' as you call it. Maybe they wanted a bit more of a physical and mental challenge than you?

[RAF_Techie101]

RAF Techie idiot 101 - trotting the line 'should have worked harder at school' makes you look a fool. There are some incredibly capable and sharp individuals of all ranks running around the battlespace, or 'ground' as you call it. Maybe they wanted a bit more of a physical and mental challenge than you?


Without wanting to look like the idiot I'm apparently being, where did I mention anything about trying harder at school? I'm simply questioning the principle of awarding the same medal to someone flying a drone by computer screen whilst in their own country, having regular cups of tea and going home to their own bed each night as someone living in a tent in 40 degree heat wearing body armour and walking around with a pistol for self defence. I'm not saying they don't deserve recognition, but to award the same to both situations isn't in the spirit of what medals are about.

[Roadster280]

The obvious answer:

OSM for everyone in Irak and possibly in the other country.

GSM 08 for all those supporting ops, including drone drivers, who have done a great job on SHADER, training teams in other places, other ME dets etc. All AcSM earning.

What is likely to happen?

Irak and other country - you get OSM(which stacks up towards AcSM).

The rest of you unlucky.

If this is the case then there are going to be some mightily annoyed people who have been sent on 'op tours' yet their time away etc won't be recognised.

Cue BS about X-factor etc.

RAF Techie idiot 101 - trotting the line 'should have worked harder at school' makes you look a fool. There are some incredibly capable and sharp individuals of all ranks running around the battlespace, or 'ground' as you call it. Maybe they wanted a bit more of a physical and mental challenge than you?

It was Daf Hucker, not RAF_Techie101. I agree though; a moronic comment.

[H Peacock]

Irak Should have worked harder at school!!!

[The B Word]

Without wanting to look like the idiot I'm apparently being, where did I mention anything about trying harder at school? I'm simply questioning the principle of awarding the same medal to someone flying a drone by computer screen whilst in their own country, having regular cups of tea and going home to their own bed each night as someone living in a tent in 40 degree heat wearing body armour and walking around with a pistol for self defence. I'm not saying they don't deserve recognition, but to award the same to both situations isn't in the spirit of what medals are about.

RAF Techie

If I may answer the second half of the above quote?

- i would offer that there is just as much danger to someone operating on home soil as there is for someone sat in well defended operating base. Indeed we know that the bad guys are most likely looking to target the RPAS flyers on their way to work or as they go about their daily business - so they could be in MORE danger than the deployed personnel.

- We also need to consider the RPAS type. Watchkeeper is line of sight only and so is 'up country' operated anyway. Reaper is beyond line of sight and so you have a Mission Command Element that controls the RPAS from afar via satellite and then a Launch Recovery Element that operates the RPAS line of sight for take off and recovery which is 'up country' somewhere (in Afghanistan it was KAF).

- We also need to consider this warfare is different. The people that fly Reaper are exposed to the ooerations day-in day-out without significant breaks. They will develop targets and watch military/terrorist targets for days on end - often getting the full intimate pattern of life. Then when given clearance to do so they have to drop a building or take a life knowing the full effect of their actions. If they have to engage under self defence ROE for whomever they are providing overwatch for they may hear the shreaks of the wounded on the RT and then again watch the after effects of the weapons they have fired in full HD. They then have to go home and be a normal mum/dad afterwards. You also have to live with the consequences of your actions - did you get things right/wrong are you going to jail for killing outside ROE? This is stressful and to m is ample 'rigour'.

Then you have to offset this against supporting staff that get canpaign medals for dishong out kit, money, sports equipment and other stuff - to me RPAS operators deserve campaign medals for being at the fighting edge of the canpaign.

[Jimlad1]

I am a firm believer that RPAS operators do deserve gongs - its an emotionally and mentally stressful job, far more so in many ways than being in a rear echelon camp in country, because you have the daily head screw of taking kids to school, going to work, either observing someone or then dropping a bomb and killing that person, and then going home to tea with the kids.

Its hard work, there is no 'operational space' to get your head in the game and instead you have to constantly jump between two very different worlds. I wonder if a case could be made to put RPAS operators on regular short (e.g. 1-2 month) tours in a third location like Akrotiri to allow them the space to deliver the operation?

Perhaps two levels - the 'in theatre' and the 'out of theatre' to reflect same outcomes, different means of delivery?

[camelspyyder]

Then you have to offset this against supporting staff that get canpaign medals for dishong out kit, money, sports equipment and other stuff - to me RPAS operators deserve campaign medals for being at the fighting edge of the canpaign.

Agreed. A lot less chance of PTSD at Al Udeid or Al Mussanah than at Waddington/Creech.

[Shack37]

Posted by Daf Hucker
I've nothing to do with RPAS by the way and I worked hard enough at school not to be on the ground in an op area http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/nerd.gif



You can do that by not even going to school:rolleyes:

[alfred_the_great]

The problem is that, fundamentally, the Army think that medals should only to apply to those with boots on the ground. Indeed, they've denied medals to RN and RAF personnel on the basis our equipment has self-defence equipment (DAS), and thus fails to meet the "risk" element of "risk and rigour"...

[Melchett01]

The problem is that, fundamentally, the Army think that medals should only to apply to those with boots on the ground. Indeed, they've denied medals to RN and RAF personnel on the basis our equipment has self-defence equipment (DAS), and thus fails to meet the "risk" element of "risk and rigour"...

Well in that case, will they be giving up body armour?

[wokkamate]

Well in that case, will they be giving up body armour?

We all thought it, you said it! :ok: - add in Protected Mobility and ECM too then? No risk and rigour left, or at least equal or less than an aircraft flying in a relatively denied/degraded environment!

[alfred_the_great]

Well in that case, will they be giving up body armour?

hush now, this is hte Army. They instinctively think that unless they're involved, it doesn't count...

[chopper2004]

A funeral director employee belonging to a famous firm in London that was on TV a decade ago, who has contract with MoD received a medal for being in Bagram for 45 days on the trot....as he said during an interview on Brize.

[MFC_Fly]

During the Balkans an MT driver that never left Sicily (mostly running people to and from Palermo Airport) got his medal, whilst none of the MPA aircrew (flying in theatre with live weapons) did. Several crews did 2 tours in theatre and have nothing to show for it except log book entries.

Allegedly it was because the Lords and Masters (ex-FJ world) determined the qualification as being X months (6?) on the ground in the designated theatre (Sicily qualified) or Y number of flights in theatre. They didn't take into account that some crews flew very long sorties and didn't attain the high number of flights even though they almost certainly flew more total hours than some flying other types.

Hey-ho, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[RAF_Techie101]

So after a day of reading the other posts and collating my thoughts, here's a more in-depth look at my thoughts.

The whole issue revolves around what we give medals FOR. I know people all over the spectrum when it comes to medals - from those who think we should have more and look more like the Americans, to one who thinks that unless it's a Victoria Cross he isn't interested in the slightest. I sit somewhere in the middle on the fence - there should be medals for service and medals for actions, with the cross-over present too.

Campaign medals are struck to recognise active service in a conflict of some sort - the hard part comes in deciding what the qualifying criteria are. In the past some weird and wacky rules have come about as mentioned before, allowing people who happened to be in Cyprus on holiday almost to receive the same medal as those on the ground in the conflict zone. So do you say that you have to physically be in the country on the ground to qualify? As per Shader, many people are spending months and months away contributing to the fight but ultimately having nothing to show because the war is fought from the Med. In this case I believe two medals are being looked at for this very reason.

At the same time you could have been posted to Northern Ireland before 2007 for 3 years and gained a GSM and an ACSM for jsut being in the country. Stay there longer and the bars start to rack up. Then there's the OSM for Afghanistan which you could get for being in Oman at the right time, but being in the country gets you the clasp to go with it which is a reasonable idea. Look at the OSM Congo and you can't get it without having the DROC clasp at all. It's all a bit of a mess, and don't get me started on the American jockey who got a medal for flying over Northern Island due to a weatehr diversion...

Personally, I think campaign medals like the OSM's should be the reserve of people either in or over the conflict zone. There has to be some element of the risk and riguer that they're measured against. You may well be assisting with the war in other capacities, but it doesn't justify the Operational decoration. The GSM is more applicable in my opinion - Op Kipion is a prime example. People, myself included, have spent months away from families in sandy conditions but not at any particular risk apart from heatstroke. To recognise the time abroad the GSM with appropriate geographic clasp would be issued for say, slightly under 6 months total days. It is an Operation and despite some locations being nicer than others its worth recognition.

For the RPAS drivers I'm still not sold on the idea. Like being sat behind a desk in Whitehall and qualifying for a Gulf War medal, it's just not in the same spirit as those halfway round the world away from home.

There is no correct answer to it all and ultimately the decision is taken at levels infinitely higher than my pay grade. I am still waiting with baited breath for the RAF 100 medal announcement though....

[theuglyfendoff]

A operational campaign medal should absolutely be about the direct contribution that a person makes to that operation. The fact that the debate still continues around awarding RPAS Pilots/Sensor Operators/MICs medals and has still not been resolved is a total embarrassment and disgrace. Does it need to be spelt out in simple language again the fact that this group of people on that platform have provided more direct operational air effect/support than anything else in the military (SF aside) and most certainly the RAF. Is anyone actually seriously saying that someone who has actually worked on ops delivering ISR and kinetic strikes every working day for the last 3-10 'years' is any less deserving of a campaign medal than someone who has done a couple of 4-6 monthers! Risk and rigeur is mental as well as physical and if anyone also thinks RPAS still don't fit that definition then the definition needs to be changed to live in the modern world of warfare. Sorry mr Ripley but your definition isn't fit for purpose anymore.

Raf_Techie101, you may not have said 'should have worked harder at school' but you are a fool if you say something as moronic as directly comparing RPAS Pilots/Sensor Operators/MICs roles with 'sitting behind a desk in whitehall'.

[Tankertrashnav]

I like the story of the "overflight" GSM. When I got posted to Hong Kong from Singapore to Hong Kong in January 1968 I flew up in a Bristol Freighter of the RNZAF. We refuelled in Qui Nohn in Vietnam in a 45 minute stopover, which was really interesting as I had never seen so many helicopters in my life.

I met a US Army officer who was on R & R in Hong Kong and when I told him this he said that had I been in the US forces that would have entitled me to the Vietnam Medal. A few weeks later I got a package in the post. The guy had got hold of one, complete in its box with ribbon bar etc. All entirely unofficial of course and I've never yet been tempted to wear it alongside my single GSM on Remembrance Sunday. Maybe one day.

[Gnd]

2 pages - really??? No

[sidewayspeak]

When you have left the RAF, and are trying to earn a living in the real world, I think most of you will realise how pointless these 'turning up' medals really are...

Sure you may earn some respect for a gallantry decoration, and have really earned it. But for the rest, they will gather dust somewhere. Your salary and, if you are lucky, your annual bonus will allow you to reward your family in a way that a pointless trinket cannot.

Perhaps a few will flame me, but 5 years after leaving I wonder now what all the fuss was about for so many parts of Service life. The real world - and the requirement to earn a real living - focuses the mind and hones your motivation.

[Mahogany_Bomber]

sidewayspeak,


I'm not quite sure what or where the real world is. Having been on the ground in contact in places such as Iraq and Aghanistan, I can safely say that on each occasion I had a focussed mind, my motivation was honed and I was earning my living. If that's not real enough for you then you then I'm not sure I'd want to visit this real world of which you speak.


As for medals as pointless trinkets, it's an opinion to which you are quite rightly entitled but one with which I respectfully disagree. Everyone sees issues through the prism of their own experiences, I am no different and I wouldn't seek to tell anyone how they should think about this topic, simply to explain my own point of view. My time in Afghanistan hasn't seen my do anything particularly brave or distinguished, I've simply done the job I've been paid to do in some testing circumstances. The medal (to me) is representative of many things; 3 years in-country away from my family, friends who came home wounded or injured and some who came home dead. Others will view their own medal differently or have no view at all, and that's fine, but to me a pointless trinket it is not.


As for medallic recognition for RPAS crews, why not? Having been a beneficiary of a number of aspects of their work, observation of pattern of life being just one, I have a little insight into the peerless operational effect they deliver and have had many an occasion to be thankful for it. The stresses and strains underwhich they operate meet many standards of risk and rigour, just not the particularly narrow definitions required for campaign medals, perhaps it is time for medallic recognition to better reflect the contemporary operating environment.


MB

[unmanned_droid]

It's disheartening to hear that carrying out orders which see actions likely to be detrimental to mental health take second place to your position on a map when it comes to recognition of risk and rigour to an individual.

[sharpend]

By all accounts the best Gulf Medal award was to the Guards polo team who were training at Happy Valley polo field in Episkopi Cyprus during the hostilities and were deemed to have been within "scud range" from Iraq. They were most surprised when the gongs arrived in the Adj's office.....allegedly.

Agreed, and the schoolies/scribblies at Akrotiri got a medal too, whilst VC10 crews flying into an area with a few miles of the Kuwaiti border, and subjected to Scuds and Patriots having a go at each other (+ the occasional Patriot thinking a VC10 was a nice juicy target) got nothing.:D

[sharpend]

When you have left the RAF, and are trying to earn a living in the real world, I think most of you will realise how pointless these 'turning up' medals really are...

Sure you may earn some respect for a gallantry decoration, and have really earned it. But for the rest, they will gather dust somewhere. Your salary and, if you are lucky, your annual bonus will allow you to reward your family in a way that a pointless trinket cannot.

.

Totally agree all. Especially read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cruickshank Surely he deserved that VC if anyone did.

[gijoe]

Without wanting to look like the idiot I'm apparently being, where did I mention anything about trying harder at school? I'm simply questioning the principle of awarding the same medal to someone flying a drone by computer screen whilst in their own country, having regular cups of tea and going home to their own bed each night as someone living in a tent in 40 degree heat wearing body armour and walking around with a pistol for self defence. I'm not saying they don't deserve recognition, but to award the same to both situations isn't in the spirit of what medals are about.

Apologies - comment redirected. Phone, small print...

Most people living in a tent with with body armour and a pistol don't have an effect on the battlespace...Drone dudes do, very much so.

[RAF_Techie101]

Apologies - comment redirected. Phone, small print...

Most people living in a tent with with body armour and a pistol don't have an effect on the battlespace...Drone dudes do, very much so.

Apology accepted. I was more surprised at theuglyfendoff's reply which is his second post on PPRUNE and the first since 2011. Obviously a topic close to home.

A operational campaign medal should absolutely be about the direct contribution that a person makes to that operation. The fact that the debate still continues around awarding RPAS Pilots/Sensor Operators/MICs medals and has still not been resolved is a total embarrassment and disgrace. Does it need to be spelt out in simple language again the fact that this group of people on that platform have provided more direct operational air effect/support than anything else in the military (SF aside) and most certainly the RAF. Is anyone actually seriously saying that someone who has actually worked on ops delivering ISR and kinetic strikes every working day for the last 3-10 'years' is any less deserving of a campaign medal than someone who has done a couple of 4-6 monthers! Risk and rigeur is mental as well as physical and if anyone also thinks RPAS still don't fit that definition then the definition needs to be changed to live in the modern world of warfare. Sorry mr Ripley but your definition isn't fit for purpose anymore.

Raf_Techie101, you may not have said 'should have worked harder at school' but you are a fool if you say something as moronic as directly comparing RPAS Pilots/Sensor Operators/MICs roles with 'sitting behind a desk in whitehall'.

What both replies suggest is that metallic recognition should be more for the contribution you make to the war as apposed to just being there. This is a fair point to an extent - how many times do you see senior officers finding an excuse to go to a conflict zone for 30 days and then leaving again.

I gained my Afghan medal by doing 45 days accumulated service - I was TriStar ground crew and it took about 4 years of flying in and out to build up enough days in theatre to qualify. This obviously in no way compares to the army guys we took out there who were doing multiple six month tours and being shot st, but the qualification criteria are what they are. Who decides if you've earned it? The politicians? The medal office! Senior officers? The queen? Is flying in and out of an airfield in a 1970's airliner more dangerous than being inside the wire for the whole tour? They're all subjective questions and there's no right answer.

I am in no way saying that the RPAS operators don't contribute to the war effort - but in the sameness way doesn't everyone in the military do so? If my colleagues in the squadron hadn't fixed and serviced the aircraft before I came in to work to go to Afghan on it, it wouldn't have made it, so aren't they contributing too?

My personal opinion (and it's just that) remains that you should be out of the country at the very least. The RPAS engineers can't do their jobs from back in the UK after all.

Call me a moron or anywhere name under the sun if you wish, it's just my opinion. Just try not to bite too hard...

[mr ripley]

Interesting reading for those with a passion for this subject:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/61398/Medals-Interim-Report-July-12.pdf
Personally, I think that RPAS personnel should qualify by the rigour aspects to their role.

[gijoe]

Apology accepted. I was more surprised at theuglyfendoff's reply which is his second post on PPRUNE and the first since 2011. Obviously a topic close to home.



What both replies suggest is that metallic recognition should be more for the contribution you make to the war as apposed to just being there. This is a fair point to an extent - how many times do you see senior officers finding an excuse to go to a conflict zone for 30 days and then leaving again.

I gained my Afghan medal by doing 45 days accumulated service - I was TriStar ground crew and it took about 4 years of flying in and out to build up enough days in theatre to qualify. This obviously in no way compares to the army guys we took out there who were doing multiple six month tours and being shot st, but the qualification criteria are what they are. Who decides if you've earned it? The politicians? The medal office! Senior officers? The queen? Is flying in and out of an airfield in a 1970's airliner more dangerous than being inside the wire for the whole tour? They're all subjective questions and there's no right answer.

I am in no way saying that the RPAS operators don't contribute to the war effort - but in the sameness way doesn't everyone in the military do so? If my colleagues in the squadron hadn't fixed and serviced the aircraft before I came in to work to go to Afghan on it, it wouldn't have made it, so aren't they contributing too?

My personal opinion (and it's just that) remains that you should be out of the country at the very least. The RPAS engineers can't do their jobs from back in the UK after all.

Call me a moron or anywhere name under the sun if you wish, it's just my opinion. Just try not to bite too hard...

Let's hope it will be medallic and metallic recognition - there is too much chocolate floating around including LS&GC for officers.

If you join the RAF to mend jets, you mend jets. If you join the infantry to close and engage with enemy you might, just might, have to fix the bayonet one day. They are totally different roles - without the first, the second doesn't get to the point where he squeezes the trigger. So effect on the battlespace is a little moot. Enablers are as key as bayonets.

Drone drivers have most definitely had an effect on the battlespace during SHADER and this should be recognised.

[The B Word]

From Mr Ripley's link:

A rather different issue which we have not had time to look at in detail but which certainly needs to be considered more seriously by the MOD in the future is the changing nature of warfare, for example the question of recognition for those engaged in remote operations, firing cruise missiles or weapons carried by drones. They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes. Similar issues have arisen in the past for those who have made huge contributions to military campaigns but only in supporting or enabling roles, for example in the areas of aerial supply and maritime support, with limited physical presence in the area of operations. Numbers on the front lines in future campaigns may be limited, posing the issue of how to deal with support personnel ever more acutely. Serving personnel are very mindful of these changes to the nature of operations and what it may mean for the opportunities for medals in future.

I agree, give the RPAS pilots, sensor ops and MICs campaign medals for goodness sake. Either that or stop dishing them out to those engineers loafing about in a nice austere base miles away from any action - touche techie? :ok:

[Clockwork Mouse]

The way we control and conduct operations has changed dramatically in the last couple of decades. Though ground can only be taken and held with boots on the ground, enemies can be observed in real time, engaged and destroyed from thousands of miles away. Direct support of troops on the ground used to be the preserve of artillery and piloted close air support aircraft and helicopters. Now it is routinely provided by RPAS operators from the safety of the home country. The fact that those operators are not personally in harms way at the time does not diminish their vital contribution to the firefight and its tactical outcome and that should be recognised.

The current system of operational medals and awards has not kept up with the progress of delivering violence on our enemies. It is too geographically based, is no longer fit for purpose and needs updating. In principle I am generally in favour of parsimony, as opposed to profligacy, in the handing out of medals. I would not like us to emulate the Americans or North Koreans!

As an example of the illogicality, unfairness and divisiveness of the current system, the teachers in Cyprus received GW1 campaign medals, while servicemen and women who were directly involved in conducting operations were not.

The situation now is even more complicated and the purpose of operational medals urgently needs reviewing. It should be slanted towards including all those personnel making a direct contribution to a particular operation, regardless of their geographical location, while excluding those whose geographical location is currently the only criterion. RPAS operators should certainly be recognised for their involvement in combat operations. At the same time there must be a distinct recognition of those in the first category who were actually in harms way during the operation. Above all it should be credible and perceived as fair.

I do not believe it is difficult to devise a more modern procedure. Someone in MoD put a lot of time and effort into justifying a LSGC for officers, which many service personnel consider idiotic. I'm sure that the time and effort would be better spent bringing the operational medal award system into the 21st century.

[RAF_Techie101]

From Mr Ripley's link:


I agree, give the RPAS pilots, sensor ops and MICs campaign medals for goodness sake. Either that or stop dishing them out to those engineers loafing about in a nice austere base miles away from any action - touche techie? :ok:

Touché indeed - the report makes for interesting reading and it would be more interesting to read an updated version now we're 5 years down the line. It even mentions RPAS operators and the like and also the campaign support medal for those not directly involved.

Question for those who support the idea of the same campaign medal as those in country - what would the qualifying criteria be for a drone pilot?

[The B Word]

Hi Techie

I would suggest for RPAS crews it would be a set number of operational missions. Plucking a figure out of my rear I would go for 30 op sorties for Afghanistan in recognition of the 30 days qualification for the OSM?

The B Word

[RAF_Techie101]

Sounds reasonable. I'll be intrigued to see what they come up with in the end.

Just to add to the touché, one medal I'm glad I never qualified for was the Libya one - had a few techies on the squadron who qualified by flying 5 tanking sorties down to the coast off Libya and back again whilst eating, sleeping and watching movies for 8 hours a time. Not convinced about the risk and rigour there...

[Onceapilot]

Handbags at dawn!
I suggest that the whole UK gong award system has been unbalanced since the times of Blackadder series 1. :sad: . Pity that some seem to need to slag other's awards though? :=

OAP

[camelspyyder]

Truly, it has always been a muddle for aircrew not based in the territory in conflict. I do have a (undeserved) Gulf 90/91 medal from Akrotiri, but I don't have a clasp to my Iraq medal, despite having spent many months on the ground with incoming fires day and night. Go figure.

[RAF_Techie101]

Handbags at dawn!
I suggest that the whole UK gong award system has been unbalanced since the times of Blackadder series 1. :sad: . Pity that some seem to need to slag other's awards though? :=

OAP

No slagging of the award or the personnel receiving it - as with my own awards, I met the criteria and have been awarded them by the Queen so I shall wear them as required regardless of my own opinions, and should everyone else. My issue, as with this current situation, stands with those who invent the criteria to begin with. As Camelspyder says below, aircrew are a particular thorn in the side. As the 2012 report states, and as I said, earlier, you will never get it right as everyone has their own opinions and it's all entirely subjective. I enjoy the discussion and hearing other's viewpoints and rationale behind them - i try and avoid name-calling and personal attacks such as theuglyfendoff's which caused his first post in 6 years...


Truly, it has always been a muddle for aircrew not based in the territory in conflict. I do have a (undeserved) Gulf 90/91 medal from Akrotiri, but I don't have a clasp to my Iraq medal, despite having spent many months on the ground with incoming fires day and night. Go figure.

19th March - 28th April 2003 for the clasp - no wonder they're surprisingly rare. Used to be a fair few people on the kipper fleet with the Afghan OSM but no clasp - several on my presentation parade at Brize receiving just the clasp to add to it after going back with other fleets.

[gijoe]

Should have worked harder at school!!!

Ever worked with Yanks? Probably not my guess...

[gijoe]

Sounds reasonable. I'll be intrigued to see what they come up with in the end.

Just to add to the touché, one medal I'm glad I never qualified for was the Libya one - had a few techies on the squadron who qualified by flying 5 tanking sorties down to the coast off Libya and back again whilst eating, sleeping and watching movies for 8 hours a time. Not convinced about the risk and rigour there...

That's not an activity without risk...

[RAF_Techie101]

That's not an activity without risk...

...I don't ask for a medal every time I get on an aircraft.


Chinooks included...

[Onceapilot]

...I don't ask for a medal every time I get on an aircraft.


Chinooks included...

Again, you slag others. I suggest you troll off.:)

OAP

[Melchett01]

Clockwork Mouse,

A cogent argument, and one that I am broadly in agreement with.

The way we control and conduct operations has changed dramatically in the last couple of decades. ... The fact that those operators are not personally in harms way at the time does not diminish their vital contribution to the firefight and its tactical outcome and that should be recognised.

... The current system of operational medals and awards has not kept up with the progress of delivering violence on our enemies. It is too geographically based, is no longer fit for purpose and needs updating. In principle I am generally in favour of parsimony, as opposed to profligacy, in the handing out of medals. I would not like us to emulate the Americans or North Koreans!

... The situation now is even more complicated and the purpose of operational medals urgently needs reviewing. It should be slanted towards including all those personnel making a direct contribution to a particular operation, regardless of their geographical location ... At the same time there must be a distinct recognition of those in the first category who were actually in harms way during the operation. Above all it should be credible and perceived as fair.

What I would say however, is that your system of tying awards to operational effort vice geographical location does unintentionally run the risk of the profligacy you seek to avoid. If we go down that route, where does it stop? RPAS crews get awards - fine. But then what about the Sqn support staff? Or even Stn staff? Before you know it you end up with all sorts of folk who are doing their jobs but with only tangential impact to live ops getting operations medals. To do otherwise would be divisive, so I can see entire units being annotated as supporting ops when in reality their job would be no different if the sqns were or weren't deployed.

As I've suggested before, I think the answer is straight forward for deployed personnel. Either go down the route of an OSM with clasp / no clasp for service inside or outside the specific area of hostilities. Or a separate award to differentiate between those fighting and those supporting, but all still within the JOA. This could be as simple as a split OSM / GSM, or you could introduce a separate Ops Support medal - I believe the Canadians have done something similar. That way there's a definite distinction whilst recognising those deployed in places like Al Udeid, the Falklands, afloat on Kipion etc.

How you resolve the issue of personnel in the UK or outside the JOA, well that's the harder more divisive issue. But if we say it's awarded for supporting named operations then that's everyone at PJHQ looking for an award along with other similar places like AWC, opening up the issue of profligacy.

[Pontius Navigator]

Why not campaign stars?

[Genstabler]

I took part in a recent conflict as a staff officer, posted in from my unit for the duration. Although I visited the Theatre briefly, my post was in the JHQ from which the operation was commanded. My 6 months detachment there was very intense, high pressure and at considerable personal inconvenience. I worked very long hours deep underground and never saw daylight, but I slept for much of the time in a comfortable hotel and was never in harms way. My efforts were considered to have made a significant contribution to the success of the operation to the extent that I subsequently shook hands with the Queen when she pinned a gong on me. However, despite my contribution, I and my fellow workers did not receive the campaign medal for the operation we had taken part in. MoD civilians, who were stationed within theoretical missile range of the enemy but had no involvement in the operation, did receive it. That does not make sense to me.

[theuglyfendoff]

Whatever the qualifying criteria for rpas Aircrew it would be met quickly and exceeded by a country mile given how much they fly (missions/hours/years).

I see why the simplistic approach to awards has been carried on but, as many have said, it doesn't work anymore (and for some time). It seems a tough pill to swallow historically for those in posts directly supporting ops (pjhq/op hq). However, i believe the rpas issue becomes much more divisive as you now have aircrew flying an aircraft in theatre providing now the majority (or close to it) of all air effects (a figure that will only increase). So no comeback/counter-arguments on them being in a support role from somewhere else and therefore not 'actively' taking part. They are the directly supported asset! The fact you can have aircrew in a FJ doing a CAS role one moment and then the next year (assuming posted and retrained!) they are doing the same role but flying an rpas. The second getting no official recognition is where this is now too divisive and wrong.

I understand those who think medallic recognition probably gets too much attention/thought. It has a wider morale component, however, to those treated as second-class citizens for doing exactly the same job as their legacy manned bretherin.

It has to be more complicated to give greater credibility to the result. Something like a tiered system. Tier one for directly involved in ops (that would include rpas btw!). Tier 2 for all those supporting those directly involved. A clasp for those tier one guys/girls in country to recognise extra physical risk? I'm not going to dip into the discussion on where hq elements would sit within that tiered system!

I didn't realise there was a currency. Sorry, been a bit busy.

Thought Tristar ground-crew guys has thicker skins! Don't read between the lines 101 I wasn't calling you a moron. Just describing that particular comparison IMO..

[ValMORNA]

Genstabler,


I can appreciate your point of view, but, have to defend my award (less the clasp) as a civilian working with the Services in a nearby territory. It involved long shifts, quite often all evening and into the night, and proved beneficial to our authorities in the overall result. No cushy hotel stay, either!

[Genstabler]

ValMorna
Sorry if you inferred from my post that I thought you and others like you did not deserve your award. I do not think that. However, I believe that others further away from danger but more involved in operations should also have received recognition. By the way the hotel may have been cushy but all I saw of it was my bed!

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember that during WW 2 some serving never left UK and were never in danger but still got a medal.

An aunt, as a PBX operator in the MHQ in Birkenhead got nothing as a civilian. My mother, a nurse in India came home in 1941 with ships in convoy sunk en route. She was a civilian nurse - no medal. Her sister, as a SSgt in Cairo got 3 as well as trips to Luxor and Aswan and the leave centre in Cyprus.

There will always be some that should and don't and vica versa.

[airpolice]

I'm sure we all agree that RPAS staff are due recognition, of some sort, for their part in the prosecution of the war effort.

However, we should try to guard against ending up like the USAF, where even the civvy cleaners have stripes and medals.

[upsdaisy]

I am speaking with experience, I have operated both manned and unmanned platforms over the same theatres.
Do kinetic capable RPAS crews deserve recognition? Yes.
Do they deserve a medal? I personally do not think so, nor do I think any serviceman outside the theatre of operations warrants a medal.
A solution may be some form of RPAS medal, a single issue on completion of a full tour, otherwise in the current climate the medal count to RPAS crews would simply get ludicrous!

[Legofan]

A solution may be some form of RPAS medal, a single issue on completion of a full tour, otherwise in the current climate the medal count to RPAS crews would simply get ludicrous![/QUOTE]

I really don't understand this, why would there be too many medals? I respect your opinion but the system needs to modernise and simply being in a geographic area of operations is completely unacceptable.

There are a vast number of misconceptions and ill informed opinions floating around on social media by people who really have no idea what life is like for an RPAS crew on operations permanently for years. The fact that we are still having these discussions and that the issue has not been resolved must be having a severe impact on the morale of a force that is already overworked, massively stressed and underrecognised for their contributions. The fact that they have not been included in this recent medal is deeply disappointing for all involved.

[alfred_the_great]

I am speaking with experience, I have operated both manned and unmanned platforms over the same theatres.
Do kinetic capable RPAS crews deserve recognition? Yes.
Do they deserve a medal? I personally do not think so, nor do I think any serviceman outside the theatre of operations warrants a medal.
A solution may be some form of RPAS medal, a single issue on completion of a full tour, otherwise in the current climate the medal count to RPAS crews would simply get ludicrous!


The drawback is that the "theatre of operations" is significantly bigger than drawn by this putative OSM Syria.

[camelspyyder]

The Americans tried to award drone crews a medal for extraordinary achievement in 2013 - the Distinguished Warfare Medal. It didn't happen for 2 reasons:

1. It was ranked above the Bronze Star and Purple Heart which caused a huge Veteran's Lobby to rise up against it.

2. Drone Warfare is still vilified by a majority of the public, so there was little support for it.

However, the US Military have now made new distinctions for medal awards, be they in direct combat roles or remote ones:

RPAS crews, long range weapon system operators, cyber specialists and remote command groups can all be awarded medals:

Sailors, Marines Now Eligible for New Award Devices | Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/09/05/sailors-marines-now-eligible-new-award-devices.html)

Is this the way the UK should go?

[Davef68]

The idea of what happened with the South Atlantic Medal, with a rosette for service in the operational area, is proably too simple and straightforward (or expensive) for them.

[NutLoose]

Sorry, I just don't get it, they are not physically in theatre so are not in danger, like it or loathe it, even in the likes of Bastion you were not safe from attack, to award a medal to someone sitting in a portacabin in the uk where the worst danger they suffer is the possibility of piles or spilling their coffee in their lap just degrades the whole awards system to a meaningless bit of tin.
It also brings up the thorny question that it's not just pilots that get awarded campaign medals but also those in support, so are you going to present one to the guy that made his breakfast, changed the fuse on his monitor and cleaned the office, as they all played an part in processing the mission.
I watched the video in the command centre in Qatar on the Beeb news and couldn't believe that the AVM responsible for determining viable targets sitting at a screen in an air conditioned office was wearing a grow bag to do it. If anything I would give them a ribbon of some sort but not a physical medal, rather like the US does.

[Legofan]

What you don't seem to understand is that these people are killing people on a daily basis on the orders of the state. Do you not think that this makes a huge difference?? Or is it as routine as cooking someone's breakfast or cleaning the toilet. Seriously, we really need to move out thinking into the 21st century and give these guys and girls the support they rightly deserve. Standby for a further drop in moral and increasing pvr rates. To say it is without risk is preposterous. Do we live in a world where mental health is not recognised like back in the First World War? PTSD area are rife among reaper crews both in the RAF and USAF and we still do not know what the long term affects will be.

When we normalise killing we have a problem. Wake up

[camelspyyder]

Physical danger or not, that last post comes across as very disrespectful to a force that have been on 365 day ops for 10 years now without a break.

[gijoe]

Sorry, I just don't get it, they are not physically in theatre so are not in danger, like it or loathe it, even in the likes of Bastion you were not safe from attack, to award a medal to someone sitting in a portacabin in the uk where the worst danger they suffer is the possibility of piles or spilling their coffee in their lap just degrades the whole awards system to a meaningless bit of tin.
It also brings up the thorny question that it's not just pilots that get awarded campaign medals but also those in support, so are you going to present one to the guy that made his breakfast, changed the fuse on his monitor and cleaned the office, as they all played an part in processing the mission.
I watched the video in the command centre in Qatar on the Beeb news and couldn't believe that the AVM responsible for determining viable targets sitting at a screen in an air conditioned office was wearing a grow bag to do it. If anything I would give them a ribbon of some sort but not a physical medal, rather like the US does.

He's not an AVM - he is an Air Commodore and his job is to ensure compliance with UK rules of the road for anything that the UK strikes. One could be forgiven for thinking that the UK is running the campaign - it isn't. It is a US show and they wear growbags. He is playing their game.

This medal decision is one of the poorest I have come across during my 28 years of playing this game. It is simply pathetic.

[Legofan]

Really does anyone really care what they are wearing? Why should a pilot not wear a flying suit? Perhaps it helps to make them feel more in the zone- whatever. There are more important issues at stake here. Agree full heartedly that this decision is a disaster and I cannot even comprehend how worthless these RPAS crews feel that their monumental efforts are

[NutLoose]

Camelspyder, personally I think it is disrespectful to the men and women that put themselves in harms way to expect a medal when one doesn't.

As the RPA pilots wings are I believe edged in blue to show they are not real pilots as such, perhaps a blue rosette or blue letters RPA on the ribbon and medal would appease you to show that they were not won / earned in theatre. Will you now wish DFC's AFC's awarded to RPA pilots who are in no danger what so ever?

I cannot understand your point about the 365 10 years in service, the same could be said about the lowest LAC / SAC sitting at Brize maintaining the bridgehead, does he not deserve equal parity? As put by Legofan "overworked, massively stressed and underrecognised for their contributions" there are plenty more trades in the RAF under the same situation.

[sevenscars]

Nutloose,

Do you have any RPA experience ? If not you are no more qualified to comment on what RPAS crews do than the aforementioned LAC maintaining the bridgehead at Brize.

Sevenscars

[NutLoose]

RPA no, And why wouldn't I be qualified in knowing what it entails to maintain a bridgehead, do you
have any experience of that and the stresses entailed.

But that is just smoke and mirrors, it still does not get past they are not in theatre and are not subject to the same threat level and the criteria is cut and dried.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility#post-world-war-2-campaign-medals

[Pontius Navigator]

Come on, just being in theatre for the requisite time qualified for a medal even when there was no risk.

I qualified - we had targets and we were at 5 hrs readiness for a couple of weeks. Enemy troops made a para assault 300 miles away. The greatest risk I suffered was cutting my hand in the swimming pool.

OK, we had fighters on QRA, we had AA guns deployed, but there was no feeling of risk or danger. Got the medal.

Got held hostage in Belgium. No medal but a free meal and quantities if beer for free as the bill was was waived.

[Easy Street]

I do find it odd that some people get annoyed by aircrew wearing growbags in deployed ground jobs. If there is no chance of any ground defence activity being required then combats are equally redundant and the question is reduced to a trivial one of identity.

[NutLoose]

Then PN, that is more to do with poorly laid out zones than anything else, I still think like the Falklands a rosette etc to show in the active warzone as opposed to being outside it would be the way fwd.

But if you want to put the actual threat level outside the main theater of operation as a parameter, everyone in the UK and RAFG should have got a GSM during the NI troubles as barracks and individuals were tagetted, killed and bombed.

[gijoe]

Then PN, that is more to do with poorly laid out zones than anything else, I still think like the Falklands a rosette etc to show in the active warzone as opposed to being outside it would be the way fwd.

But if you want to put the actual threat level outside the main theater of operation as a parameter, everyone in the UK and RAFG should have got a GSM during the NI troubles as barracks and individuals were tagetted, killed and bombed.

Wrong - NI was a situtation where the police primacy in a part of the UK could not be ensured and the MOD helped out. This is a totally diiferent situation where another soveriegn nation airspace and land has been used to conduct legally approved violent acts. The idea of a rose for those inside the Irak and Syria and without for outside is a good one.

Drawing a parallel between changing a spark plug on a Tri* and being involved in a kill chain, or being 'on the ground' , indicates that you probably have no experience of either.

[gijoe]

The drawback is that the "theatre of operations" is significantly bigger than drawn by this putative OSM Syria.

Exactly - ATG we agree for once!

[BlackadderIA]

I do find it odd that some people get annoyed by aircrew wearing growbags in deployed ground jobs. If there is no chance of any ground defence activity being required then combats are equally redundant and the question is reduced to a trivial one of identity.

The US actually insist that all aircrew in a CAOC liaison role wear grow bags - the patches help identify aircraft type for those needing to field questions. I had to get the full Velcro set put on my desert flying suits after I rocked up at Al Udied with just the name badge Velcro (or else face the wrath of the SIDO).

[NutLoose]

Drawing a parallel between changing a spark plug on a Tri* and being involved in a kill chain, or being 'on the ground' , indicates that you probably have no experience of either. Oh do be serious, the kill chain as you put it runs all the way back to the man assembling the weapon, like it or not, the man releasing it is just the end product in a long line of people that need to come together to make that happen and are fully aware of the cause and effect of their jobs..

Without any of those in that line the guy would be sitting on the ground hungry, naked and outside still in the UK, because all of the people that come together to make it happen apparently are not part of the chain of events. If you mark one out for an award, then you need to recognise them all.

Tristars incidently have Ignitors not Spark plugs..

[gijoe]

Oh do be serious...I am, very.

Tri* don't have spark plugs...thanks for that. I have always wondered what happens after air is forced into Mr Whittle's inventions through the compressor blades, into the combustion chamber, mixed with fuel, a match put in until self-sustaining, which causes the mixture to explode and expand rapidly, goes reaward to the blades on the turbine that is axially linked to the compresser. No thanks, really. I have always wondered what the N1 and N2 meant.

I think everyone on here will make their own minds up about your thoughts.

[Gnd]

Children, behave. Just be glad that the MoD have found another set of mugs to pay to have medals court mounted - I am going into the mounting game when I grow up!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

Am I missing something? I don't seem to be able to find the other thread on this subject which was running until a few days ago. Is it hiding in plain sight (quite possible in my case!) or has the OP pulled it?

[camelspyyder]

This one TTN?

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/599727-iraq-syria-operational-service-medal.html

[pettinger93]

The royal navy have the same issues; the crew of an attack submarine who happen to be in range of sending a cruise missile to Afghanistan at the right time get medals. The crew of a Trident missile boat who spend 3 - 4 months completely underwater at action stations get only a badge.

[Toadstool]

My two penneth worth.

One of the worst phrases in the military is "because we've always done it that way".

The RPAS crews are tangibly involved in the current campaign. They don't meet the criteria for risk and rigour but perhaps this should be revisited.

I would go for a campaign medal that recognises those who have served on the ground or in the skies over Iraq and Syria. Fleshy bodies who have actually flown or served in Syria and Iraq would get the medal and rosette.

Apologies to the Engineers without which none of us would ever get to where we need to be. One team one fight and all that.

[NutLoose]

Which is what I suggested before I lost the will to live, but instead of a rosette a simple RPA badge added to the ribbon and a possibly RPA Syria bar on the medal, to delineate between the in and out of theatre operations, though it does a disservice to the rest of the RAF that put them there.

The fact one has not been issued does infer that I am not the only one that disagrees with it, senior politicians, the MOD and senior Officers appear to agree.............

but hey ho if someone wants to wear a bit of tin to feel better about themselves and put themselves on a level pegging with some poor squaddie who has had to scrape his mate of himself after an IED explosion and has only that medal to show for it.... then so be it.
It's one reason I do not wear my GSM, because Aldergrove was squat compared to what the Army suffered and had to deal with, and even though I was in the country I would be embarrassed to wear it.. Obviously I am alone in that, so GIjoe and Co, I hope you get your little bit of bling, but remember a lot of people in theatres the world over have suffered physically to earn theirs..



..

[Toadstool]

Nutloose

I agree with what you say to some extent, but I take great exception to your last paragraph.

This particular campaign has been fought, in the most (apart from SF), by RAF aircrew and others who have trained Iraqi forces. This campaign has been fought by many who have spent months away from their families and have been asked by their lords and masters to do so.

There have not been (to my knowledge) any UK Mil casualties in this fight, but there most certainly has been a fight.

You apear to be bitter because perhaps you may have not been in the forces when most of us have been involved in recent kinetic conflicts.

BTW, I was also around when terrorists such as PIRA were targeting us. I draw a massive distinction between that and my recent experiences.

This is not about wearing tin to feel better about ourselves, this is recognition for the efforts and hardships that many have been subjected to. I'm sorry that you feel that you have to denigrate the efforts of many who have been involved.

There is also an Ebola medal, but I don't recall any IEDs or enemy action. Is scraping mates up criteria for tin?

[upsdaisy]

Quite a few ‘pro medals’ chipping in here, listen I did it, I worked the admittedly annoying shift pattern with a long drive at either end. It was tedious most of the time, exciting sometimes, stressful at others, but PTSD, come on!!
The majority of people that I worked with were ‘medal light’, mostly due to their previous fleet or trade, I sympathise with their desire for a gong. Im afraid you simply dont warrant one for doing this role. I do however agree that many other people in previous conflicts got one that maybe shouldn't have, especially in locations away from the actual AO.
Its a strange job and Im sure it effects people in different ways, however if you chose to play on it, you could quite easily make a fuss of the mental effects.
For goodness sake, ringing in to Jeremy Vine, jesus wept!

[Tankertrashnav]

This one TTN?

Iraq and Syria Operational Service Medal

Yes that's the one camelspyder but if I'm not mistaken it has been renamed (by the OP I assume) as the original title referred to Op Shader.

Anyway thanks for taking the trouble.

[NutLoose]

You appear to be bitter because perhaps you may have not been in the forces when most of us have been involved in recent kinetic conflicts.


Not in the slightest, I just see it as the start of the slippy slidey slope where campaign medals etc start to get dished out to anyone regardless and their value and worth as an award is lost, they will simply become bling with no meaning.

Yes, RPA pilots play a vital role in the modern services, but then so do the rest of the forces out of theatre ( and in) and at the end of the day when they signed on the dotted line to become a RPA pilot they knew they would be based out of theatre and what the job entails, as did the rest of the RAF, to then try to change the goal posts probably comes under the bitter part of your quote above.

TS reworded it slightly, the Squaddie comment was an attempt to show that the medal to the average Soldier means a lot more to him as he has to go through more to earn it, I suppose that is why they tend to get them presented where as mine was more or less tossed to me in passing. I find the line "this is recognition for the efforts and hardships that many have been subjected to" strange, because surely everyone else involved is in exactly that same boat.

End of the day, you look a Squaddie in the eye who in some conflict past, present or future has suffered from it and fought long and hard to earn his medal and the right to wear it, then you tell him you got yours for sitting in a building in the UK safe and warm.... and see what his response is, I couldn't..

.

[Genstabler]

If I were the squaddie NL refers to and my life had been saved in a firefight by direct action by an operator sitting in a building in the U.K. safe and warm, I would bloody well insist he got the gong.

[Melchett01]

The change in the character of our operations means that using risk and rigour as the sole criteria for recognition will always be unsatisfactory. Risk to life comes in many forms, not just from incoming fire and rigour is a fairly subjective criterion anyway. At the risk of being controversial I would argue that in comparison with recent operations in Afghanistan - in themselves 'policing' rather than 'traditional full on warlike' operations - SHADER has been largely low level risk for most participants other than those few embedded with Opposition and Iraqi forces. We didn't send thousands of troops to go toe-to-toe closing with the enemy, and we weren't facing a credible air defence or Air Force which posed a threat to our ability to operate. And the politicians liked it that way as there is little appetite amongst either them or the public for high risk kinetic operations. So is risk and rigour even appropriate as a benchmark here in comparison with 1982, 91, 03 etc?

That doesn't mean what has been achieved to date isn't important or worthy of recognition. But until those running the medals and honours processes come to terms with the new operational dynamic, I sense there will be little change and we will continue to have a process bogged down by delays as they try to match outdated concepts with reality and divisiveness amongst those deployed trying to outcompete each other for who had the worst time on tour rather than acknowledging what has been achieved.

[theuglyfendoff]

Camelspyder, personally I think it is disrespectful to the men and women that put themselves in harms way to expect a medal when one doesn't.

As the RPA pilots wings are I believe edged in blue to show they are not real pilots as such, perhaps a blue rosette or blue letters RPA on the ribbon and medal would appease you to show that they were not won / earned in theatre. Will you now wish DFC's AFC's awarded to RPA pilots who are in no danger what so ever?

I cannot understand your point about the 365 10 years in service, the same could be said about the lowest LAC / SAC sitting at Brize maintaining the bridgehead, does he not deserve equal parity? As put by Legofan "overworked, massively stressed and underrecognised for their contributions" there are plenty more trades in the RAF under the same situation.

The main thrust here is that the debate shouldn't be a fight between different groups about who shouldn't get something as that just causes angst and ill feeling. It should be more about what more should people physically at the front-line (significantly less than the approx 3600 people eligible for the OS medal btw) - i.e. an additional bar/rosette - rather than what people absolutely directly part of the air campaign (that includes people flying a physical aircraft in theatre - RPAS crew) should not get...and I would agree that those at the next tier who support the people directly taking part in the campaign should also get recognition.

I see most people have identified your opinions are based on a lack of factual info/misinformed/ill-informed (whichever), however, some of your worst lines need correction IMO:

Very very few of the currently eligible OS Medal personnel are anywhere near front-line ops or risk/rigour criteria and therefore 'not in harms way' either (if you insist on sticking to the out-of-date and oversimplified legacy definition for a 'campaign' medal). Remember we are not talking about valour medals here. I would be pretty annoyed if I was techie in a supporting role in Cyprus fixing aircraft nowhere near front-line (no medal) compared to a techie in a supporting role that happens to be in Iraq fixing aircraft nowhere near front-line (medal). Army guys training troops nowhere near front-line ops....sound like the same role as training troops at home. Stats also tell you most accidents/injuries/deaths since Afghan happen in training not on Ops. The examples could go on...

Giving RPAS Pilots blue-edged wings was a fop to legacy thinking senior guys who couldn't get their head around new ways of operating aircraft/weapons systems. Doesn't make it right and it definitely doesn't make them 'not real pilots'. The only reason you don't think that is utterly insulting is because you (and others with no knowledge of the issues involved) think the 'blue wings' issue was done because they are 'different'. Where does that lead you...oh, I don't think a AAR Pilot is a real pilot either because his aircraft has way more autopilot functions than an RPAS so do they really ever 'fly' it anyway...I'm happy they are all real pilots btw (!) and intra-platform insults, beyond normal banter, gets us nowhere.

The 365/10 year in service thing was a bit of mis-quote. What he meant was 365/10 years operating an aircraft physically on Ops, in Ops, proving more kinetic/ISR support to the air/ground campaign than any other platform. So no, not comparable to any trade that is 'supporting' those flying aircraft physically in theatre. Again, based on complete lack of knowledge/awareness I'm afraid.

Yep, lots of pinch points in lots of trades therefore overworked, massively stressed and underrecognised for their contributions. None of the ones you mention are the supported asset on front-line doing all that whilst on ops and providing more than any other crew/platform for air support to grd campaign. So RPAS crews are not supporting a capability on ops - they are the ones providing that capability. As for 'kill chain' discussion the I'm afraid no-one you mention further back down the 'support' elements of the killchain are the ones pulling the trigger/approving the strike/guiding it in/responsible for it citing the right tgt and not killing anyone else etc. To quote otherwise is, again, ill-informed and incorrect. The line of determining who should get recognition for direct campaign air support is actually simple. For RPAS terms it includes the aircraft and the 'metal box' that houses the crew that fly it/operate it/employ kinetic strikes from it. They do much more than 6 sorties to 'earn' their recognition.

[downsizer]

Has anyone actually seen the qualifying criteria for the Iraq and Syria OSM? Are the engineers in Cyprus getting it or is it limited to people in and over country?

[Easy Street]

Has anyone actually seen the qualifying criteria for the Iraq and Syria OSM? Are the engineers in Cyprus getting it or is it limited to people in and over country?

30 days continuous or 45 days aggregated service in Iraq or Syria. Aircrew: 10 sorties over Iraq and/or 6 over Syria at a maximum rate of 1 per day.

The riskier operating environment over Syria presumably explains the difference in sortie requirement.

if I'm not mistaken it has been renamed (by the OP I assume) as the original title referred to Op Shader.

No, not renamed, there's just no-one posting there! There was an old thread about the possibility of a medal but I figured its announcement warranted a new one.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Is the guy flying this a "real pilot" too?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/18/article-2525553-1A29F4C500000578-740_634x423.jpg
A soldier launches a Desert Hawk Unmanned Aerial System during an exercise in Kenya.

[Wwyvern]

Aldergrove

I nearly bit through my after- lunch brandy glass. Aldergrove Ops not deserving of a medal? What NONSENSE.
Who says the arrest of a slightly inebriated airman found entangled in the barbed wire surrounding the military part of Aldergrove, whose very voluble cries and triggering of various acoustic warnings caused the guard to be called out, and whose cries only subsided when he was advised to pipe down and he heard the cocking of several guards’ weapons, is not in an operational area? That gave the Detachment Commander nightmares for several nights, and certainly warrants the description “risk and rigour”.
And what about the domestic problem of living in the Mess with young pilots of evil intent, one of whom dealt with another who was irritating him by pouring his newly-bought pint over the irritant’s head. “The best 2 and 6 I’ve ever spent” were his exact words after the event.
And what about the damage done to a brave crewman on an Aldergove Perimeter patrol, who acquired severe bruising by direct contact with a very grumpy ram whom the crewman had righted from the ram’s prone-on-his back position in a field close to the airfield? If we’d been in the USAF, would the crewman not have been awarded a Purple Heart?

Disclaimer:- Sorry, not trying to trivialise the subject. I think anyone with direct input to an operation should have medallic recognition. The rosette system of ”in and out” of theatre seems to fill the bill.

PS Before my time, but was here not a time when the GSM for Malaya was issued to new arrivals with their joining documentation?

[NutLoose]

Where does that lead you...oh, I don't think a AAR Pilot is a real pilot either because his aircraft has way more autopilot functions than an RPAS so do they really ever 'fly' it anyway...I'm happy they are all real pilots btw (!) and intra-platform insults, beyond normal banter, gets us nowhere.

Well put post theuglyfendoffguy, as for the above, the difference is risk, the guy in the AAR is at risk to life and limb if anything goes wrong and simply because the aircraft has autopilot does not mean he cannot fly the aircraft, he can, end of the day his life is on the line, the RPAS pilots isn't.

Thanks Traffic, that made me smile, those poor Army pilots really have to rough it not having an air conditioned portacabin in the field ;)

[camelspyyder]

The AC is for the computer racks, not for the crew you fool.

At least we know the Gunner flying the DH will get a medal...he must be within 10 miles of the enemy!

[NutLoose]

I know, Humour, it clearly passes over your head lol.

[theuglyfendoff]

Well put post theuglyfendoffguy, as for the above, the difference is risk, the guy in the AAR is at risk to life and limb if anything goes wrong and simply because the aircraft has autopilot does not mean he cannot fly the aircraft, he can, end of the day his life is on the line, the RPAS pilots isn't.


Thanks Traffic, that made me smile, those poor Army pilots really have to rough it not having an air conditioned portacabin in the field ;)

The AAR metaphor was directly related to your opinion of rpas pilots not being 'real pilots' and not to do with the risk discussion.

By your definition then anyone taking off in a manned aircraft anywhere deserves a medal...I think not.

It's worthy of debate at what point in the tiered system of rpas/UAS/UAS one could term the operating crew aircrew/pilot etc. For simplicity sake then it's probably easy to say there is a difference between that hand launched 2Lb uav and the 10000Lb reaper rpas that flies hundreds of miles for many hours carrying significant payloads through conventional airspace constructs.

Plus, since that guy will launch it at the front line line-of-sight then the medal argument is a guaranteed one for him!!:)

[NutLoose]

By your definition then anyone taking off in a manned aircraft anywhere deserves a medal...I think not.

In a high risk environment where an action is taking place and being part of the operational forces processing that action, then yes. Wasn't that one of the requirements for the Vietnam GSM for the Australian forces as it turned out, 1 operation flight..

[just another jocky]

As the RPA pilots wings are I believe edged in blue to show they are not real pilots as such...


That is unworthy of you.


As a minimum, RAF RPAS pilots must pass EFT (a bespoke course with more hours and skills than the current EFT).


Perhaps we should be looking at a "significant contribution to ops" medal? These guys & girls have done more than probably any other group to forward the operational outcomes of the war in Syria & Iraq. The fact that they don't get officially recognised for their outstanding and immensely difficult and personally onerous task is a disgrace.

[Wizzard]

Will giving these guys a medal make any difference to my life?



Go figure.

[NutLoose]

That is unworthy of you.


As a minimum, RAF RPAS pilots must pass EFT (a bespoke course with more hours and skills than the current EFT).


Perhaps we should be looking at a "significant contribution to ops" medal? These guys & girls have done more than probably any other group to forward the operational outcomes of the war in Syria & Iraq. The fact that they don't get officially recognised for their outstanding and immensely difficult and personally onerous task is a disgrace.

Hands up, but it wasn't what I meant, I was trying to get across that they hadn't gone through the same full sylabus as a air based pilot as opposed to a desk based...

These guys & girls have done more than probably any other group to forward the operational outcomes of the war in Syria & Iraq. The fact that they don't get officially recognised for their outstanding and immensely difficult and personally onerous task is a disgrace. As have all the other staff supporting them, it wasnt a matter of if they should but what they should get, as should the rest of those involved, my comments are that it should not be the same as those in the "frontline" Ie in the threat zone, whether you then do it with a rosette or some other mark, such as I suggested a bar marked RPA Syria etc.

[trim it out]

Is the guy flying this a "real pilot" too?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/18/article-2525553-1A29F4C500000578-740_634x423.jpg
A soldier launches a Desert Hawk Unmanned Aerial System during an exercise in Kenya.

How about this one?

ttps://youtu.be/X1VL9aDR5kY

[Nugget90]

Vietnam Medals

In reply to the observation made by Nutloose in post 102 it might help if I described in brief what awards with 'Vietnam' in the title were available to ANZAC forces in the period 1964 to 1974 (or thereabouts).

The Vietnam Medal (VM) was awarded under the Imperial Honours System, which is why as a British Imperial Award the medal has on its obverse the image of The Queen as she appears on the Coronation Medal. It was awarded to members of the Australian and New Zealand Armed Forces who between 29 May 1964 and 27 January 1973 served one or more days on the posted strength of a Unit or formation in Vietnam, or 28 days in ships or craft in inland waters off the coast. For example, the crews of the RAAF Caribou detachment based at Vung Tau qualified for the VM.

The Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal (VLSM) was established in February 1993 in order to extend recognition to persons who rendered service in support of the Australian Armed Forces (AAF) in Vietnam during the same period as for the VM but who did not qualify for the latter. Although by 1993 Australia (and New Zealand) were no longer parties to the Imperial Honours System, The Queen by an Order in Council gave permission for the medal that formed part of the VM to be used also for the VLSM.

The VLSM is/was awarded to persons serving in the AAF or who were integrated with the AAF: those who had been awarded the VM were ineligible for the VLSM, i.e. no-one could have both. Qualification for the VLSM included: membership of the crew of a ship or aircraft operating in support of the AAF; being attached to a unit or organisation operating in support of the AAF; or attached to or serving with a unit of the AAF or allied forces as an observer. For example the crews of RAAF Hercules that operated into and within Vietnam qualified for the VLSM. [Later, eligibility for the VLSM was extended to include members of the RAAF serving at Ubon in NE Thailand where they provided air and airfield defence for allied forces operating of there, i.e. the crews of RAAF F86 Sabres and ground forces protecting operations by USAF Phantoms and Jolly Green Giants, even though many of the former may never have set foot in Vietnam.]

Both the VM and the VLSM are accorded the status of War Medals.

The VLSM comprises the same (round) medal as the VM but differs first in that the supporter is plain, not embossed, and second that the ribbons are different. Both incorporate in the middle the canary yellow divided by three vertical red stripes of the flag of the Republic of Vietnam. The yellow part of the VM ribbon is flanked by red (for the Australian Army) on either side, with dark blue for the RAN on the far left (as you view it) and light blue for the RAAF on the far right. The VLSM has dark blue adjacent to the yellow part on the left, with red on its left, whilst on the right of the yellow central band lies a strip of brown (for the waters of the coastal and inland waterways) with light blue on its right. Both are quite colourful!

To any of my onetime colleagues in the RAAF who read this post, please excuse the abbreviated background as I have described it, for I know well that there is much more to this than I have been able to set down here. But readers will get the general picture.

To return to the thread, it occurs to me that having the same round medal but slightly different ribbons might answer the question as to how to award a medal to UK service personnel involved in operations where some are in theatre and others are outside. Those risking their lives and encountering rigour could have their medal suspended by an appropriate ribbon, whilst those engaged in qualifying support activities could have the same medal but with a ribbon in which the colours would be arranged differently. This might be an alternative solution to having a rosette aka the South Atlantic Medal (Falklands).

[RAF_Techie101]

To return to the thread, it occurs to me that having the same round medal but slightly different ribbons might answer the question as to how to award a medal to UK service personnel involved in operations where some are in theatre and others are outside. Those risking their lives and encountering rigour could have their medal suspended by an appropriate ribbon, whilst those engaged in qualifying support activities could have the same medal but with a ribbon in which the colours would be arranged differently. This might be an alternative solution to having a rosette aka the South Atlantic Medal (Falklands).

To add to this subject, all 4 Operational Service Medals (Afghan, Congo, Sierra Leone and Shader) have the same medal design. The ribbons only differ on the outer colour and this is chosen based on the area of operations (the inner three bands represent the theee armed services). Clasps are added if required but this varies with each medal. It's reasonable sensible - you only ever see the queen's head anyway and it saves on a new contract every time...

[NutLoose]

Another way to do it would be to issue another single medal specifically for RPA crews and staff, then simply add bars for regions as one does with the GSM.

[goffered again]

Just a couple of thoughts about awards for fighting a computerised war on a TV screen.

With 126 confirmed kills, shot down 7 times, into the drink twice and E&E'd through France once (all CFE WW2 Europe) should I be entitled to a few gongs?

They could of course be awarded the appropriate theatre medal with a gold "W" on the ribbon to indicate Weapons, Air Launched via Telemetry :\

[cynicalint]

appropriate theatre medal with a gold "W" on the ribbon to indicate Weapons, Air Launched via Telemetry

The bar could be engraved "Weapons are not kinetic, electronic reverie"

[NutLoose]

Or something similar to this? ;)

Play Controller Enamel Pin Badge | Pin Badges | Soft Enamel Pin Badge ? Power Up Pins (http://www.poweruppins.com/shop/play-controller-pin)

The ribbon idea though you could replace the yellow of the desert if there is any present with green to signify out of theatre.


..

[cynicalint]

Nutloose,
:ok:

[sevenscars]

Nutloose,

They do a pin badge for you too!

https://www.zazzle.com.au/i_amndt_cuckold_spalls_6_cm_round_badge-145377077323917061

[NutLoose]

Cool, but at least we would be operational AND working in theatre so to speak, not sitting at a desk beating it in front of a monitor :D

[Pontius Navigator]

On the subject of risk, I am aware of an RPA Driver, who is at risk, possibly more than in-theatre base wallahs, in a different way. If the address became publicly available the pilot and family would all be directly at risk.

This risk is personal in much the same way as the targets are personal, and not random as in a conventional aircraft attack.

[camelspyyder]

Indeed quite recently so called IS published the names and addresses of many US drone crews and declared a jihad on them, calling on their brethren to seek out and kill them wherever they were.

[airpolice]

On the subject of risk, I am aware of an RPA Driver, who is at risk, possibly more than in-theatre base wallahs, in a different way. If the address became publicly available the pilot and family would all be directly at risk.

This risk is personal in much the same way as the targets are personal, and not random as in a conventional aircraft attack.

Pontius makes a good point. In the 39-45 war all the foreign nationals, other than those of our allies, were locked up and denied contact with the outside world.

Yet today we allow people who are blatant supporters of the "enemy" to have unfettered access, to observe people coming and going from our military bases, and also allow them to communicate what they see, to "head office" where the troops are operating. It's madness on a General Melchett scale.

The people working in the IED factory can't really stop the Reaper from seeing them and prosecuting the war effort. I'm sure they would like to. However... if it is fair game for our forces to follow their staff to and from work, and then know who to kill, why would they not do the same thing?

We can't send in people to openly live on the ground over there, taking notes and sending back intel. Why do we permit them to do so?

Since the world's "leaders" seem determined to prevent the establishment of an Islamic State, which seems odd, as it would give us a place to deport folk to, we need to just lock *them* up here, in the absence of a country to send them to.

*Them refers to people openly expressing any opinion contrary to that of HMG.

[Pontius Navigator]

Them refers to people openly expressing any opinion contrary to that of HMG.

Treason?

Sedition?

"The Treason Act 1351 is an Act of the Parliament of England which codified and curtailed the common law offence of treason. No new offences were created by the statute. It is one of the earliest English statutes still in force, although it has been very significantly amended."

"By 1965, capital punishment had been abolished for almost all crimes, but was still mandatory (unless the offender was pardoned or the sentence commuted) for high treason until 1998. By section 36 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 the maximum punishment for high treason became life imprisonment."

Instead of cobbling together new offences let us just stick with the original Act.

[airpolice]

Pontius, I fully agree.

Perhaps we should start with the Labour party and any Conservative MP not voting with the government on any issue.

If we can't do that, then where is the line to be drawn? Chowdray, Galloway, Abu Hamza, Corbyn?

When people stand up in the street and say that what HMG is doing is wrong, that is sometimes more than free speech. There is a grey area between being critical, and inciting violence.

In my view, those who incite violence ought to be removed from the freedom of speech arena. As should some others who may not incite violence in public, but that leads to a Pinochet style of running the country.

Either way, I think the current level of protection for HM Forces will need to be shown to be lacking before steps are taken. Just as we need people to die or be seriously injured before we get junctions re-profiled or speed cameras installed.

[chopper2004]

In my IMHO the crews do deserve medals and awards ...no question about this.

In better news Waddo has hordes of the other ‘enthusiasts’ camped out at mo

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/anti-drone-protest-staged-raf-waddington-unmanned-aircraft-dangerous-claimed/?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=FacebookPage&utm_campaign=social