Bad trip with Qatar No Reasonable fix for flight home

[zzuf]

Just flew Perth to Doha, economy with Qatar. Both thought the flight excruciating for a number of reasons, some self inflicted, others airline inflicted.
The main self inflicted problem was not researching how uncomfortable 10 abreast seating is in a Qatar 777, and how much discomfort is caused by having a fully reclined seat ahead in ones face for 12 hours. The airline added to the discomfort by moving me from my pre-selected window seat to the centre of the three seat block.
Anyway, the flights home seem to have plenty of spare seats at this stage, so to avoid a re-run I contacted the airline to find:
1. Buying a third seat for a three seat block was not permitted;
2. Buying an upgrade to BC is not permitted;
3. Buying an extra ticket for my wife or myself (on a new booking) is not permitted (to gain a three seat block);
4. Cancelling our non refundable economy booking and re-booking in business class is permitted.
While I am pretty well over air travel, I thought that this was a new level of perversity inflicted by the airline, on passengers, just because they can.
Or am I missing something in that it is better for the airline to fly an empty seat than accept cash from a long suffering pax who would really like to have the seat?

[Hotel Tango]

zzuf, unfortunately if you are in the cheaper Y fare category your ticket will not be valid for upgrade. You will find this with most if not all carriers and certainly not confined to Qatar. Indeed, the only avenue you can take is to cancel your Y fare (with no refund except perhaps certain taxes) and rebook in Business. They are the rules and they are indicated to you in the conditions of carriage.

[zzuf]

Ahh, pity the travel agent didn't point this out.
Doesn't explain why I was shunted from my selected seat.
Doesn't seem to explain why I can't buy an extra Y seat on a new booking.
Seems a strange business model to refuse an offer of thousands of dollars for an available seat (either BC or Y) because I apparently bought a "cheapy".
Having upgraded in the past, with a different airline, I must have, unknowingly, bought a "better" Y class ticket on those occasions
Anyway, expensive point plotted on my learning curve, thanks.

[ChrisJ800]

Sit at or near back of the plane as they usually load up front to back so seats at back have less folk so more chance of sitting next to an empty seat.

[zzuf]

ChrisJ, You read my mind, new seat allocations, two rows from last, block of 3 in the centre of the cabin. Left the middle seat empty, hoping no solo pax will choose it.

[Metro man]

Unfortunately you were unlucky and got one of the new B777s in 10 across, the older ones are 9 across. Et-ihad and Emirates are also 10 across which is the configuration most operators have gone for. Mercifully SIA, BA and Thai are 9 across for the moment. A look on SeatGuru.com will show you which aircraft will be operating your flight.

As for not being able to upgrade on a cheaper ticker, that's normal. I bought Malaysia Airlines promo tickets earlier this year which were dirt cheap but specifically stated non upgradable. Airlines want their business travellers to continue purchasing full fare tickets rather than cheap ones and then buying an upgrade. The target candidate for the airline is an infrequent traveller who might pay a bit extra to move up but wouldn't normally purchase business class. The airline gets to sell a premium seat which would otherwise stay empty and possibly resells the original economy seat at a higher price to a last minute buyer. They do not want people who "should" be paying full price taking advantage of these offers to upgrade and may not even make the offer if you are doing it too often.

A350 is good in economy as is the A380, B787 in 9 across is another nightmare.

[Andy_S]

Seems a strange business model to refuse an offer of thousands of dollars for an available seat (either BC or Y) because I apparently bought a "cheapy".

If you were willing to do that, it makes me wonder why you didn't buy a Biz Class ticket from the outset?

[zzuf]

Simple, the B777and A380 were on my list of tolerable to fly long haul Y class. The B787 was on the intolerable list, which now includes 10 abreast B777's.
Anyway, seems Qatar have relented and offered BC home from Europe for a little less than the half the original BC return fare (including the unused part of the Y class return fare).
Still leaves me wondering how one buys two seats for one person, apparently not an unusual situation.
Thanks to the contributors to the thread who pointed out the intricacies of Y class fares (and some aircraft types which may be tolerable), I realize that it is only luck that I haven't previously been caught out - over very many years of long haul air travel.

[Metro man]

Tell them you are booking the seat for a musical instrument. Procedures are well established for this as fragile and valuable pieces don't travel well in the baggage hold.

[Hotel Tango]

zzuf, long haul Y class became intolerable for me quite some years ago. I found that with learning a few little tricks, and not needing to book at short notice, there were some very reasonable C Class fares about. My personal maximum tolerance of Y class is 4.5 hours. Anything over that and it's C Class for me. Sure, it's still not cheap but it takes so much stress away from air travel these days. My sons have adopted the same principle and even convinced friends to do so too. ;)

[magyarflyer]

dont speak tickets languages but
being 6 6 and tired of killing myself on American Airlines decided to spend the money and get BC on Lufthansa from dallas to budapest via frankfurt
what a shame, the BC seat just a mockup of a bed, shoulders hitting the sides, no room for the feet, toes red from contact with the very closed end. Where are we going?
I am planning to just retire and fly my rv8 back and forth across the Atlantic and be more comfortable with 4 hrs flights

[gdiphil]

I must say I am glad I read these posts. I did not know carriers were now going to 10 abreast in the B777. Never come across that thank goodness but forewarned is definitely forearmed.
As for the B787, in Y it is a disaster from a passenger point of view. I've done 6 hours Bangkok to Muscat on Oman Air. Never again. Quite simply not enough room for an ordinary size bloke like me. So last January me and Mrs GDI flew to Miami on Virgin on a B787 in premium. She thought I was being fussy but went along with it. On boarding I told her to just try out a Y seat. She immediately agreed it was intolerable for a 10 hour flight.
Good to hear the new A350 is ok as I'm on a Bangkok to Heathrow Thai flight in Y.

[esa-aardvark]

gdiphil,
would appreciate to hear of your experience, as I fly to/from
Bangkok from time to time.

[Squawk 6042]

In May I flew Oman Air MAN-MCT-BKK and return, Airbus 332 on the MAN sectors, 787 on the BKK sectors. The 332 was much more comfortable, with I believe a 34 inch seat pitch in Y compared with 32 or maybe it was 31 inch on the 787.

[crewmeal]

So is this the way forward for carriers with 787 equipment? Seat pitches with unrealistic room for long haul travel? Meals that are inadequate for long haul? Paying extra for specific seats? What has aviation come to these days?

[surely not]

I'm amazed people think it acceptable for someone to book a seat they have no intention of using!
I might have an urgent need to travel on that flight and be prepared to pay a full 'Y' fare, but be denied travel because someone else has booked an extra cheap 'Y' ticket, that will remain empty, just so that they can be more comfortable!
How selfish is that!

[alserire]

That's capitalism for you ;)

[pax britanica]

With the comments about 9 abreast 78s and ten abreast triples maybe Airbus should make something of their better width , I know they call the 350 XWb but Joe Public is never going to see that or understand it. of course the 320 series is a lot more comfy than the ageing 73 for the same reason . Boeing can be forgiven for the 73 problem as the design is so old and maybe the triple but to build the 78 so you can squeeze in 9 abreast but not actually properly seems bit of cock up to me. especially if you call it Dreamliner

[Andy_S]

Airliners are purchased for reasons of economics, not passenger comfort.

[DaveReidUK]

Up to the point when they become so uncomfortable that passengers won't fly in them.

[Mid Life Crisis]

I had planned to fly the 787 this year with Virgin to HKG in economy class.
Having read the online reviews, I would never want to set foot on one unless I was in the premium cabin.
Have now booked with Emirates on the A380.

[Andy_S]

Up to the point when they become so uncomfortable that passengers won't fly in them.

Obviously that would be economically disastrous. The fact that there are so many 787's flying and on order would suggest that sufficient passengers are willing to suck it up.

(Not trying to defend the 787 here - to be honest I'm increasingly willing to pay a premium to avoid economy in any flight longer than about 5 hours - but I do think people rather overstate passenger comfort as a factor in choosing flights. BTW, Seatguru has seat width on the VS 787 as 17.5" and the EK 380 as 18". It's hardly a step change........)

[Rush2112]

A350 is good in economy as is the A380, B787 in 9 across is another nightmare.

I was on one of SQ's new 350s from HKG back to SIN the other week, and being on the company dollar, I was up the back. I thought the seat was pretty cramped, and the aisles quite narrow. I cannot imagine how awful Y long haul would be.

The funny thing is there is an SQ fanboi website I visit and they are all drooling over the 350 and feverishly anticipating each new delivery: I can only assume they haven't flown on one yet.

[Andy_S]

The funny thing is there is an SQ fanboi website I visit and they are all drooling over the 350 and feverishly anticipating each new delivery: I can only assume they haven't flown on one yet.

I came to the conclusion some while ago that people acquire a perception - good or bad - of certain aircraft, sometimes without even having set foot on that particular type. And once established, absolutely nothing will change that perception.

[PAXboy]

In my view, this aspect has been encouraged by the manufacturers. Now that there are two dominant names that everyone has heard of, they start the PR from the moment the design is signed off for development. The most recent example was the superb PR effort of Boeing to fins a name (Dreamliner). It has worked very well for them and we can expect Airbus to follow suit.

I have had only two sectors on the 787-900 (VS) in Premium Economy and was seriously underwhelmed. Perhaps that view will change later with more sectors/other carriers/classes.

[DaveReidUK]

The most recent example was the superb PR effort of Boeing to find a name (Dreamliner). It has worked very well for them and we can expect Airbus to follow suit.

Though don't expect Airbus to start naming their products any time soon.

Aside from the in-house Beluga, the only example of that to date has been the half-baked scheme to brand the A400M as the "Grizzly", complete with those silly pawprints they painted on the tarmac at the Farnborough show a few years ago.

Needless to say, A400M customers told Airbus where to stick their name (the RAF were very rude about it). In view of the dire sales prospects for the aircraft, perhaps "Grisly" would have been more appropriate. :O

[zzuf]

As the thread starter - I flew back to Oz from Berlin, Qatar Business Class, it was the old BC, and OK. Not really the 10 star utopia suggested on TV ads but an order of magnitude in front of 10 abreast economy.
Seeing the barrage of CNN etc continuous loop TV presentations, in various hotels, about Qatar's new business class, now with a bunch of aft facing seats made me think - haven't we been here before without a great deal of success?

[edi_local]

The aft facing seats are part of the Q Suite product and are most likely to be assigned to groups utilising that. When the walls come down the 4 seats together make one "suite" and is aimed at families, small groups, business meetings etc.

Most solo travellers I imagine would have these assigned to them as a last resort.

[Rush2112]

How splendid that will be for the rest of the cabin: an excited family group all able to jabber at each other all flight long...

[Heathrow Harry]

sounds like the galley TBH

[edi_local]

Well they will have done their research and found that this is a good thing to offer. I can't imagine the noise level would be any more intrusive than a family who are split up and keep wandering around to talk to each other or any other group who keep turning around to talk to one another in a normal set of 4 seats. That said, if it all goes tits up and they no longer want to offer the suite option then they can still sell 4 separate seats without the need to renovate the cabin again.

Also, QR provide noise cancelling headphones in J class so any low level chatter shouldn't really be an issue.

[Cymmon]

Try seat 27D on the 777, no seats in front.

[SeenItAll]

I must say I was prepared to hate the 9-across Y cabin on the 787, but after several TATL flights in it, I must say it doesn't feel significantly more cramped than a 9-across 777 -- or pretty much any other Y-cabin. While an 8-across 787 might feel actually spacious, I haven't yet had the pleasure to experience one.

[Andy_S]

I must say I was prepared to hate the 9-across Y cabin on the 787, but after several TATL flights in it, I must say it doesn't feel significantly more cramped than a 9-across 777 -- or pretty much any other Y-cabin. While an 8-across 787 might feel actually spacious, I haven't yet had the pleasure to experience one.

This is the thing…….

There seem to be a lot of negative views of the 787 on this forum, but I’m quite convinced that many of these are from people who have decided – even before they board the aircraft – that they’re not going to like it. And having made that decision simply find reasons to reinforce it.

It’s nice to see an objective view.

p.s. I'm sure someone can explain the reasons why better than I can, but I don't think the 787 is available in an 8 across economy configuration.

[slf001]

Japan Airlines have their 787s in a 2-4-2 configuration in economy [8 across].
I've not flown with them though, so can't advise if it's more comfortable.