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suchac500
18th Aug 2017, 22:51
Hello guys,
I Would like to ask you for help...
I Almost finished whole ATPL (13 from 14 subjects - done). But unfortunately Im not lucky with performance exam. I already 2x failed (always from graphs) and my next attempt is last.
Im quite desperate because rest of exams I passed with avg. 88%+ even with new question. And what is worse my second attempt was worse than first one.
Before CAA I had 97-100% in my practise test. I read CAP 698, Padpilot, oxford book and still donīt know how to pass new graphs with ridiculous close answer and with very little time.
On the CAA I just get quite tricky question. I never seen before more than 30% of graphs (new graphs for ROC and take off - not CAP attachment) and totally donīt understand how to pass test with +-30ft answers.
Usually in CAP 698 are just simple examples. (no examples for min/max headwind or tailwind component - in my exam I had 30% graphs on this). The same in padpilot but on CAA examples were more complicated. And even when I thought that is correct - it was wrong. And I donīt know why.

I need probably more training on these graphs but where?
Dou you have please any idea where I could try these graph? I know factorization, but its very difficult to pass something what you see first time of your life.

thanks :sad:

ersa
19th Aug 2017, 02:24
You need to seek help from an experienced ground instructor for this, its your last attempt .

Bristol groundschool do brush courses in the UK, which I think you can pay for and sit in

Also contact capt.gs (http://www.captonline.com) they will be able to help

paco
19th Aug 2017, 06:07
Why is your next attempt the last one? You have 4 attempts at each exam.

Also, the graphs in the CAPs have the wind factorisation included, if you didn't know already. That's why the tailwind lines have a greater gradient. However, this excludes the graphs for obstacle clearance, as the wind component for obstacle clearance does not require factorisation.

When using a chart for the purpose it was designed, travel to the reference line first, then follow the grid lines to the relevant data point. Then move to the next grid. Otherwise, travel to the data point first, then follow the lines to the reference line before moving to the next grid.

Accuracy should be to within one small square.

suchac500
19th Aug 2017, 11:55
Hi,
Thanks for you answers.
Paco > Itīs my last attempt. Because I didnīt expect so big troubles during this exam so unfortunately I donīt have block anymore (just my last one). I was on performance twice and I know about 4 attempts but due to block I have last ... :( It stupid rule, I understand 4 attempt on subject but I donīt understand 6 block during 18 month.... Im stuck more than 3 months just with performance... :( I completed 13 subjects in 4 block.

But back to my problem, I know that CAP Graphs include factorisation but for me itīs difficult to understand new kind of example when I didnīt see it before. I would say that I even know basic concept how to work with them (I know about 1,43 for landing, I know about 1,25 for TO, I know about 1,3 for wet grass, 1,2 for dry short grass...) and this is everything ok. I had this example correct in my practise test but then on CAA everything wrong.
For example what I mean in bristol you have simple question headwind with +- 5kts margin on answers "determinate maximum headwind" and you will find result quite ok (+- 2 knots) Then I just came to my CAA and 1/3 question was on wind, with TORA, ASDA, TODA in question and margin in answer was 2 kts (!!).

The same with ROC graphs - on CAA I get version what I never seen before... ok, I applied principle what I learn before. The result was 1600ft/min - possible answer 1590 or 1620. I choose 1590 and it was wrong...

But for me its biggest problem, that I dont know where I had mistake. And thanks to "great" rules after exam (they will show you question but not correct answer, you canīt notice this question etc.) I donīt understand it at all because in av ex or bristol my answers are correct and then on CAA was all wrong. Im not only one who has got problem with perf exam.
How Can I Fix my mistake?

paco
19th Aug 2017, 18:34
OK, so you have run out of sessions as well. Bummer!

It's hard to know what to suggest if you are successfully using Bristol and Av exam - can you remember any specifics?

suchac500
19th Aug 2017, 20:54
paco please... Im not bummer, previous 13 subjects I finished in 4 blocks.
Because Im normal human being it means I canīt just stop my life and spend 6 months just for ATPL. I have to work and so on.... Of course that Im not genius - it means that I donīt know everything.
In Av exam I have always 97-100% - and It is not memorizing. (I always to know principles). Bristol the same.

But I really didnīt expect performance so difficult it was reason why I expected that 3 block will be more than enough. A lot of my friend is in same situation Im not only one.
My specific problem is with graph (I had just one mistake in theory, rest - just graphs).
Examples from Av Ex are just simply, in Bristol they are a little bit more complicated sometimes but still Im able to calculate them.

For example, on my CAA exam I had more than 1/3 graphs on "determination min or max headwind or tailwind component" - Well, in av ex you have one example of this. In bristol you have 1 or 2 example about this topic. But all of them are simple and answer are with big margin. On CAA I had 2kt margin among answer. I was suprised because even BASIC ground roll I had wrong. - totally donīt understand.

Maybe you could help me with these type of question please.
TORA: 2300ft
ASDA: 2500ft
TODA: 2750ft
RWY: Paved and level
MASS: 3300Ib
Pressure alt: 1000ft
temp: 31 C

1) 10tw
2) 5hw (< my result, can you confirm me please correct answer?)
3) 20hw
d) 3tw

(ASDA / 1,3 = 1924ft enter to graph)

Or

Use figure 2.4 CAP 698

Determinate the minimum or maximum wind component
Mass: 3400Ib
Pressure alt: 2000ft
Temp: 32 deg C
RWY LDA: 1750ft
RW Slope: +2% upslope

1) max. 7kt tw
2) max 2kt tw
3) min 22kt hw (< my result, can you somebody confirm?)
d) max 5kt tw

(1750ft / 1,43 = 1224ft - enter to graph)

Then I was suprised my friend had this question in his exam and meanwhile according av exam is D correct, according czech CAA its wrong. When you want appeal it you have to do it immediately after exam. (why you donīt have chance to check it before appeal it???)

Assuming all other factors remain unchanged, how ill a Headwind Component (HWC) affect the Speed for Maximum Range and the Speed for Maximum Angle of Climb?
The HWC

A) leaves the speed for maximum Range unchanged and increases the speed for maximum angle of climb
B) leaves the Speed for Maximum Range and the speed for Maximum Angle of climb unchanged
C) Reduces the speed for maximum range and increases the speed for maximum angle of climb
D) increases the speed for maximum range and leaves the speed for maximum angle of climb unchanged (Wrong answer according czech CAA)


Basically, I think that I donīt have problem with theory - but with graphs. And even when I thought that I know principles how to use it. Result is very often wrong on CAA.
I did aprox. 68% on CAA with graphs wrong.


Another question was on increasing V2.
Possible answer were improved climb gradient (agree) and another is Increase v1, increase take off mass ( This was my option)
I donīt understand why are answer so close when question are so generally. There was no info about field lengh, obstacles. And both are correct arenīt?
> Increase TOM, increase V1 due to mass, increase V2. ( so usually when you incrase V2, you will increase as well V1 because you need better TOM)
> I know that improved gradient fits better. But at that moment first answer was better for me.

Another thing is quality of supplements on CAA (!!) and I donīt understand why is on Perf exam just 60 minutes when 65% of question are graphs. On RNAV you have 1:30 and in one hour you are finished. But please ignore my crying about exam quality... I will appreciate any help with this.

paco
20th Aug 2017, 06:07
Sorry, I didn't mean you personally - I meant that your situation was unfortunate - please excuse my British humour! :)

There has always been a problem with time on the performance exam, and you are right to mention the quality of the of the graphs in the exam - they are awful - and the margin is very close.

Your answer to the first one is correct - assuming the aircraft was an SEP with flaps up for take-off. You must enter the graph with the defactored distance of 1924 ft as you would if you were trying to find the field-length-limited TOW.

I will try to make some time to look further at these later.

suchac500
20th Aug 2017, 11:58
Hehe... no problem paco I thought it is a joke. :-))

Thank you very much for your help I appreciate it!

Martin_123
21st Aug 2017, 10:21
when you mention CAA, which CAA are you referring to? UK or Czech? I did my Performance exam in May with UK's CAA and what I found was that the margins are actually bigger than in Bristol question bank. I found the graph questions quite easy and passed the exam no problem. The graphs were also decent quality. If you see the answers that are so close to each other, perhaps it's worth appealing your results on the basis that the graph quality or resolution doesn't allow you to accurately identify a 30ft difference?

gerpols
21st Aug 2017, 10:34
Have a look at www.aviationexam.com

suchac500
21st Aug 2017, 19:25
Hello,
Martin > I mean czech CAA, my friend who were on exam prior May passed quite OK.
But during last three months I would say there are some trouble there. Just a few people passed with quite low % above minimum. On my last exam during august I had aprox 50% brand new questions.
How I mentioned before - Whole new supplement ROC graphs and take off graphs out of CAP 698. 30ft difference was namely on example on ROC with new graph (didnīt find it anywhere unfortunately, just with label EQDB / no CAP). And even when I thought that I understand principles - my result was 1600ft. Answer were 1590 or 1620.

Another point is that really half of my examples was whole new unfortunately.
Probably just bad luck. But its quite frustrating when even simple ground roll is wrong. (every from this graph with minimum 100ft margin). What is really sad is... that program on our CAA will show you neccessary information completely without logic.
For example like that:

Temp: 28 deg.

Mass: 3450lb.

Pressure alt: 1630ft

I mean W.T.F - you have to write it on paper first then you can continue because otherwise its crazy to still find some information what you need.
How can you prepare yourself for something what you donīt have chance to see before?
These question are very often conceived to see them first. Then you can choose what fit best. (sorry for this spam)

I even recieved message from Av exam that is NOT recommended to sign on Performance exam right now - "there is some bigger problem".
Im not only one who has got this problem and I know 4-5 another people with same problem like me.


Gerpols: Thanks. I wrote it above - I knew their DB from 97-100% and even this I failed. (not just question but principles)

Im not saying that Im genius - of course not. And I can improve my knowledge for another exam (and I will) but this is very frustrating you have to be lucky on question.
If there would be some official attachment where you can see used graph in exam and try it somewhere thats OK, but this....



EDIT: "without logic" I mean huge space between information...

gordonquinn
29th Aug 2017, 08:28
Good luck when your exam does come around!

ersa
29th Aug 2017, 08:51
The issues you are facing now, have been building for a while , the EASA questions are being replaced with new questions, it will catch a lot of people out. Until some of the theory schools have had new feedback this is the new way....

suchac500
3rd Sep 2017, 19:46
integrated > yep, sure I agree.
I at least will try improve my knowledge about these graphs and factorization but main problem IS that there is no chance to practice these new types of question.
Otherwise my theory knowledge were ok - one mistake.
Because just very simple examples on these graphs are in AE / Bristol / CAP 698 ..
Really even in explanation you have just basic principle.
But then on your exam you will get more difficult example. With solution what you never seen before. And actually you can know theory very well, then fail in graphs (and because they are more rewarded) you will fail perf exam.

I donīt think this is correct way. At least when students have got chance to practice somewhere.... but they donīt.

But yeah... next time I will do my best.

And thanks gordon!

keith williams
8th Sep 2017, 10:39
It is good to hear that you passed the exam keeflyer, and your advice regarding using the examples and material on the graphs is absolutely correct.

But this stuff should be the absolute starting point in the lessons provided by any performance instructor. Any instructor who fails to emphasis the value and importance of the examples and information on the graphs, does not deserve to be called a performance instructor. When I instructed this stuff the lessons included a full examination of each graph, followed by 6 or 8 practice questions, all of which were the fully debriefed. The student might complain that the work rate was exhausting, but they could not complain that they had not been fully prepared for the exams.

paco
8th Sep 2017, 11:00
Agree with that one, Keith, and working both ends to the middle!

thomasr
17th Sep 2017, 22:52
Hey Paco,
I just did my performance exam, and failed big-time after getting 90% in qbanks(no guarantee-I know).
I had the same experience as you, surprises by the amount of graphs and their content. Many I've never seen before and don't know what to do. I want to do the exam asap but very afraid of what I might encounter.
Can you tell us how it went(if you did your exam) and what you have done to prepare yourself?

Thank you!

paco
18th Sep 2017, 17:58
I didn't take them - I teach it! :)

Perhaps some of the other guys can answer?

suchac500
27th Sep 2017, 21:48
Hey Paco,
I just did my performance exam, and failed big-time after getting 90% in qbanks(no guarantee-I know).
I had the same experience as you, surprises by the amount of graphs and their content. Many I've never seen before and don't know what to do. I want to do the exam asap but very afraid of what I might encounter.
Can you tell us how it went(if you did your exam) and what you have done to prepare yourself?

Thank you!

Hi,
I just wrote email to EASA because I think that this situation IT IS NOT fair.
I know, life is not fair but this stupid system is incredible. What was my point was simple, I just asked lady from EASA if she can tell me from what source I can learn new type of graphs. Because performance exam is very time limited and when you have 2-3 new graphs as me before - it is not good.
I recieved answer "time is sufficient and answers are not close".
Well sometimes they are not, but sometimes they are very very close to others!

My next attempt is 11OCT - if I will pass trough > it wonīt be end from my side, this system cost me half year of my life (just on perf exam!) and their arrogance is endless.
I really donīt have problem with learning of new stuff but problem their point of view.
First of all I will want to provide all others student reliably suplements.

I mean - jesus christ we have to pay a lot of money for these exams and they will give me blured graph.

All others subjects I pased without problem even with new question (meteo, gnav, rnav, fpl).
And perf is only remaining subject because if you will fail 2 graphs for 3 points you are going home with fail.
Of course when you donīt understand principle of these - ok then. But mostly you will fail just because your result is 1050ft and possible answers are 1000 or 1100ft.

paco
28th Sep 2017, 06:58
I hear you - the system is terrible, when the schools are just given a vague learning objective that the student is expected to understand at the end of their training and you get questions on such obscure elements of it that nobody could have foreseen (I'm thinking dengue fever instead of just plain old malaria here, or the S-N curve in AGK). Of course, the schools are clearly mistaken in thinking that there should be safety oriented questions here - oh no, can't have that. The real problem is not that some material is irrelevant, you could cope with that if the questions matched the learning objectives.

When you have a system where the only reference to what is being asked is in the question and not the syllabus, there is something fundamentally wrong.

And yes, the standard of graphics for the annexes is often appalling. The excuse is "that's what you can expect around the world." I can tell you that, in Dubai, at least, the standard of graphics for flight planning is pin sharp.

paco
28th Sep 2017, 14:34
It's the law so you won't get far there. If the question bank could be trusted I would be an advocate for reducing the number of attempts per subject down to two.

Martin_123
28th Sep 2017, 15:15
I feel this is something you have to take up with Czech CAA, I have a friend who just did the exam with IAA (Ireland), no issues whatsoever, graphs clear and readable, answers with decent margins in between them, just like in my exam with UK CAA.

If the Czech CAA are not using the same question banks as UK CAA/IAA and possibly rest of the EASA, then there's no surprise your EASA lady seemed a tad bit ignorant. As far as I know, the problem you describe used to exist years ago, but now seems to be fixed, therefore from her point of view the problem really doesn't exist and you're just some bitter student who can't get it right..

I would recommend rally up with other students in the same boat and demand your CAA some explanations

thomasr
11th Oct 2017, 11:56
Thanks for the answer Paco.

Have my performance exam coming up in a couple of weeks. All focus will be on the graphs onwards.

suchac500, please let us know about your experience with your exam today.
Good luck!

Piloto Maluco
11th Oct 2017, 20:05
Everyone is failing on Perf exam in Portugal...

thomasr
13th Oct 2017, 15:46
Wtf is going on with that exam? And in general with the latest changes?

Do you know if something will be done abou this or is just classical EASA things going on.

Officer Kite
13th Oct 2017, 17:56
to change is to admit something was wrong ... expect no change therefore

paco
14th Oct 2017, 08:12
It was suggested that the UK CAA did the whole lot on behalf of EASA and the other countries just chipped in, but that idea got blown out of the water.