BBMF Grounded

[Top Bunk Tester]

Breaking BBC News

Lincolnshire breaking news: Latest updates - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-lincolnshire-40902497?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=59946003e4b094949457daa9%26All%20Battle%20of%20B ritain%20Memorial%20Flight%20aircraft%20grounded%20after%20i nspection%26&ns_fee=0#post_59946003e4b094949457daa9)

[chevvron]

Skew gear failures as happened during WW2?

[Wensleydale]

Happy to see that the BBC are down to their usual sloppy standard of reporting with film of the Blenheim flying with Spitfires at Duxford - even their website report has a photograph of the Canadian Lancaster rather than the BBMF aircraft.

[cats_five]

"Engine issue grounds Battle of Britain Memorial Flight planes"
...
"A Lancaster bomber, two Hurricanes and three Spitfire planes are all affected by the problem.

The BBMF has three other Spitfires with different engines which are currently unavailable for other reasons."
...
"The problem is "related to the Merlin engine" - which powers aircraft including the Spitfire, Lancaster and Hurricane - but "affects all current and serviceable display aircraft", the BBMF said."


Engine issue grounds Battle of Britain Memorial Flight planes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-40957271)

Nothing on the BBMF website or Facebook page, at least not at the moment.

[Fareastdriver]

They probably failed some dreamt-up emissions test.

[VX275]

Have the BBMF had a MAA audit recently?

[[email protected]]

Yes, someone probably didn't have the 'bow-tie' up to date or their 5 main RTL in the right order.:ugh:

[Jetscream 32]

Sounds like Skew Gear problem that is critical to magnetos.... nobody likes the sound of silence when airborne other than glider pilots.....better safe than sorry and in all likliness a quick (:E) tear down, NDT / Dye test - tick - rebuild - display and back for tea and medals!

Hope they get back up in time for Scampers!

[Icare9]

In wartime conditions, I doubt whether any Merlin had a long life, so to keep these engines (and aircraft) going for a further 70 years beyond that is wonderful.
Sad that these issues seem to be occurring one after the other, the Lanc being grounded for what seems years, now this.

Did the problem (which more technical minds than mine) identify as skew gears come to light due to the recent crash of a Spitfire? We also had the Mustang prang at Duxford - was that skew gear related?

Come back when all is fixed, BBMF, we miss you!

[Davef68]

"Engine issue grounds Battle of Britain Memorial Flight planes"
...
"A Lancaster bomber, two Hurricanes and three Spitfire planes are all affected by the problem.

The BBMF has three other Spitfires with different engines which are currently unavailable for other reasons."
...
"The problem is "related to the Merlin engine" - which powers aircraft including the Spitfire, Lancaster and Hurricane - but "affects all current and serviceable display aircraft", the BBMF said."


One Griffon Spit and the Dakota are unservicable at the moment I believe.

IIRC they have 4 Merlin Spits (II, V, IX and XVI) and 2 Griffon ones

[Drainpipe]

Both Griffon Spits and the Dakota are unservicable at the moment I believe

An event I'm organising in September was expecting a Dakota flypast but the BBMF has said the Dak is u/s for the rest of the season. Shame.

[PDR1]

Are these skew gears in the magneto drive or the camshaft drive?

PDR

[Jetscream 32]

Come off the cam at right angles as a quill into the Mag - small shaft - Alex Henshaw wasn't a fan of such failures, as per this incident, so a quick grounding and Dye / NDT is well worth the effort in my mind, especially for the BBMF crews flying them and looking after them.
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/archive-exhibitions/alex-henshaw-flying-legend-a-life-in-art/view-selected-works/a-little-engine-trouble.aspx

[H Peacock]

The Merlin camshafts are all driven by a combination of spur gears and bevel gears. A bevel gear on the main crank drives 2 vertical shafts, one lower one upper. The upper vertical shaft drives another bevel gear which in turn drives 2 angled shafts, one for each of the 2 cylinder head banks.

Both magnetos (one on either side of the engine) are driven from a lateral shaft which is driven from the upper vertical drift shaft by a pair of skew (helical) gears. I believe that both magnetos share their drive from just one set of the skew gears.

[Nige321]

Does this help...?

http://www.avrosystems.co.uk/bomber/merlingearsmodded.jpg

[Nige321]

For those with a strong constitution, Jeremy Vine is covering this on his Radio 2 show at 12:00...
If the trailer is anything to go by, it will be complete BS.
He was droning on about them being unairworthy, decrepit, old, not maintained, time for them to go etc.
Blood boiling now...

[PhilipG]

If the reason that the BBMF Merlin engined fleet has been grounded relates to a specific Rolls Royce Merlin problem, does this have knock on consequences for other Merlin engined aircraft?

Further is the "problem" a Rolls Royce Merlin one or does it also apply to Packard manufactured Merlins?

Let us hope that whatever the problem is it is sorted soon.

[H Peacock]

Ah, great image. A picture paints...

You can see the lateral magneto drive shaft driven at 1.5 x engine rpm are driven by a single pair of helical (skew) gears - therefore a single point of failure for both mags.

The only other helical gears are to drive the fuel pump from the lower vertical drive shaft.

[GeeRam]

If the reason that the BBMF Merlin engined fleet has been grounded relates to a specific Rolls Royce Merlin problem, does this have knock on consequences for other Merlin engined aircraft?

Further is the "problem" a Rolls Royce Merlin one or does it also apply to Packard manufactured Merlins?


Or is it even a problem related to the contractor that overhauls the Merlins for BBMF....rather than an intrinsic Merlin (or Packard) design issue...??

Hopefully a resolution will be found soon.

[PDR1]

Or is it even a problem related to the contractor that overhauls the Merlins for BBMF....rather than an intrinsic Merlin (or Packard) design issue...??


I suspect that's more likely to be the issue for it to have such a sudden and widespread effect over such a range of merlin marques.

PDR

[TBM-Legend]

More than likely a QA issue with engine overhauler or parts supplier that they use. Not aware that other aircraft are grounded..

[BEagle]

I only heard the last few minutes of the segment on the Jeremy Whine show, but who on earth was that daft Epstein woman? Top marks to Geoff Brindle for keeping his cool when faced with such a ridiculous debate.

What exactly is the issue? Still nothing on the BBMF website, despite very strong interest in the situation...

[PDR1]

The silence is another indicator that it could be a contractual/QA/procedural issue which could well end up in a court...

PDR

[ACW342]

Wouldn't be the same industrial group responsible for the maintenance (or lack thereof) of the technically sophisticated Air Cadet Glider fleet perhaps?

[Nige321]

Wouldn't be the same industrial group responsible for the maintenance (or lack thereof) of the technically sophisticated Air Cadet Glider fleet perhaps?

Err... No...:=

[ACW342]

Thought not. There's been no hint of legal action in that particular mess. How DO they get away with it?

[Arclite01]

SERCO

SERCO was always controversial. In the late 80's early 90's while I was working at MoD many Contracts were market tested and many MoD contracts were lost to SERCO. There was a lot of suspicion at the time of how SERCO were managing to win so many Contracts. SERCO brand starts just before all the market testing, and Mrs Thatchers privatization of many Government services, on the board of directors at SERCO - a Mr Dennis Thatcher!!

Related ??...............or just a co-incidence ?

Arc

[Prangster]

Jump! Lets wait for facts

[cats_five]

...
nobody likes the sound of silence when airborne other than glider pilots.....
...

No, we like the scream of the vario telling us we are in a 10-knot climb or the sound of a glider flying fast, either between thermals or along a wave bar. :)

[BEagle]

Please confine Air Cadet comments to the relevant thread, chaps/chapesses/chapthings...

RETRO TRACK & AIR (U.K.) Ltd (http://www.retrotrackandair.com/aero-engines.html) would seem to be the company responsible for the overhaul of BBMF Merlins.

I also found this 'official' BBMF statement:

A routine inspection has highlighted a fault with one of the Merlin engines in a Hurricane aircraft. We are currently investigating the fault and as a precaution, flying of Merlin engine powered aircraft has been paused. We are still operating Griffon & Gypsy powered aircraft, including Spitfires and Chipmunks. We realise the disappointment this will be to our many supporters, however safety remains our paramount concern


One of the engines in a Hurricane....:confused:

[Innominate]

One of the engines in a Hurricane....http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gifI take BEagle's point, but look at it this way:


BBMF has several Merlin engines;
A fault has been found in one of them;
That engine is in a Hurricane.


Simples...

[aw ditor]

Shuttleworth now has three Hurricanes resident'. Are they similarly affected?

[skippedonce]

Having been fortunate enough to visit Retro on a couple of occasions a few years ago (2010), I'd be surprised if they're at fault, as I found them to be a highly professional, well-motivated and enthusiastic bunch.

[markstott]

You could always try Andrew Dixon who has access to a privately owned Dakota based at Dunsfold.


mark stott

[jonw66]

Could always let the engineers get on with the job

[Jetscream 32]

Could always let the engineers get on with the job

Exactly, it all sounds completely blown out of proportion.... ie. on engine being torn down for overhaul or during inspection as part of overhaul, hairline crack or fatigue found on skew gear...(if it is indeed that) - so much easier to ground all engines and inspect all due to outcome of problem if one fails...

This is a standard AD equivalent with absolutely no real news, yes its a shame it has been found mid display season... but top marks for finding it whatever it is and pro actively doing something about it to keep the airframes and crew safe..

Its not really a story, but im sure some dufus will use it as tool to stop the tax payer trying to fund it!!

[captainsmiffy]

Surely if it all went quiet up front....no problem...i've seen Dunkirk and the engine out performance of even a Mk 1 Spitfire is just incredible......

[unclenelli]

Daily Mail reporting a problem with a Hurricane Merlin engine "pin"
The Lanc was recently overhauled at Duxford - surely would have been spotted unless overhaul didn't include 4x engines

[OwnNav]

'Just Jane' to the rescue again ?

[AGS Man]

Whatever the problem is better safe than sorry!

[Icare9]

i've seen Dunkirk and the engine out performance of even a Mk 1 Spitfire is just incredible
Quite agree - dunno why the chap was so intent on chalking fuel/time left.
Obviously that Marque of Spitfire didn't have a Merlin but a witch's broom, as evidenced in the fire at the end.
That allowed space to be used for millions of extra rounds of .303 and a performance equivalent to a Merlin engined MkI.

Sad that this occurred so soon after the BBMF 60th anniversary. I don't recall any special mention of that back in July.
What's the situation with privately owned merlin engined aircraft, Spits, Hurris and Mustangs? If BBMF ground all theirs, surely so should they all?

[dakkg651]

According to the Telegraph, the problem is with the pin that holds the engine in!


Also states that the Hurricane with the problem had only just flown in a Royal Flypast insinuating the Queen was lucky not to have had a Merlin fall on her head.


Don't you just love the press.

[Heathrow Harry]

Why can't they just say what the problem is instead of fueling all this speculation?

[rolling20]

I recently visited BBMF. We were told that after XV230, things had become a lot more stringent safety wise. No bad thing I guess.

[H Peacock]

I recently visited BBMF. We were told that after XV230, things had become a lot more stringent safety wise. No bad thing I guess.

Perhaps no bad thing to a point, but there has certainly been an 'over reaction' by many involved in aviation. Thankfully BBMF has probably been one of the very few outfits where common sense has invariably prevailed in allowing activity to be completed (perfectly safely) rather than the 'stop everything until everything is perfect' attitude.

Imagine the scenario: Wind steady on the limit but gusting somewhat above - albeit straight down the strip. V V V important flypast to do. Two options: keep hangar locked and go home; ask Stn Cdr to ask AOC if ac can be towed to threshold, flown safely, flypast completed, landed safely by more than capable crew.

If you over-prioritise safety you can invariably find an excuse not to do fly.

Later in the same month, needing to do some CT in a modern twin-jet to be told - 'only one landing available'. We sheepishly asked why to be told the main door counterbalance spring needed changing (it's life was tied to the number of landings). 'Can we do just one cycle on the door but lots of landings' we asked - 'Nope'. Of course it was raining so we opened and shut the door 4 times during the see-off. Absurd, but the guys just had to do what the book said!!!!

Oh, the flypast was admired my the many thousands who saw it - probably all but a tiny handful unaware of the very slight increase in risk to achieve the TOT!

[noprobs]

According to the Telegraph, the problem is with the pin that holds the engine in!


Also states that the Hurricane with the problem had only just flown in a Royal Flypast insinuating the Queen was lucky not to have had a Merlin fall on her head.


Don't you just love the press.

The Telegraph also said that the BBMF would continue to fly the Griffon-engined Chipmunk!

[treadigraph]

the Griffon-engined Chipmunk

Bet that has an interesting C of G!

[dakkg651]

Make a great glider tug! They could call it a Chipfire or a Spitmunk.

[Wander00]

Torque rolls would be exciting......

[just another jocky]

Torque rolls would be exciting......

If you could actually taxi it first! :eek:

[mikemmb]

The Telegraph also said that the BBMF would continue to fly the Griffon-engined Chipmunk!

Whats even more worrying is that there are no doubt lots of others who know a bit about their subject (be it ships, medicine, plants, finance, joinery etc etc) who are shaking their heads in disbelief over all the other articles in the newspaper!

[thunderbird7]

Whats even more worrying is that there are no doubt lots of others who know a bit about their subject (be it ships, medicine, plants, finance, joinery etc etc) who are shaking their heads in disbelief over all the other articles in the newspaper!

Thats exactly what I always think. Bit like intelligence, news has to be filtered and confirmed from more than one source these days...

Forgive my ignorance but why is the Dak grounded? A separate issue to this one, I assume, as I don't think they ever made radial Merlin engines...?

[GeeRam]

Forgive my ignorance but why is the Dak grounded?

I believe its currently not equipped with its full compliment of engines.....;)

[Blacksheep]

Speaking as a not-so-humble Continuing Airworthiness Management Engineer: There are no Emergency Airworthiness Directives from the CAA for either the Spitfire or Hurricane aircraft, nor the Merlin engine - so civilian Spitfires and Hurricanes are not grounded. Why all the secrecy? If the Royal Air Force are aware of an airworthiness problem that justifies grounding their fleet, their duty on safety grounds is to share that information with all operators of the same type. Is it a due to (heaven forbid) a "Maintenance Error" within the BBMF? Have they for example, overrun a scheduled or mandatory inspection?

[Monsun]

Thunderbird7. Unfortunately they've had problems with another engine. I visited BBMF last Thursday and the Dak had its starboard engine removed and needed a replacement. Have seen elsewhere that it will be grounded for the rest of year.

[[email protected]]

Perhaps no bad thing to a point, but there has certainly been an 'over reaction' by many involved in aviation. That is something of an understatement:eek:

[PDR1]

Why all the secrecy? If the Royal Air Force are aware of an airworthiness problem that justifies grounding their fleet, their duty on safety grounds is to share that information with all operators of the same type.


Unless the issue relates to procedures, processes or documentation relating to (say) a subcontracted P.145 organisation which is unique to that organisation or the contractual relationship they have with the BBMF.

Personally I dismiss the "metal particles in the oil" story that's floating (sic) around - the BBMF's merlins cover a range of marques and they're all at different life-states, so I can't see that as a reason for a generic grounding.

PDR

[Blacksheep]

When it comes to air safety there are no "Unless" issues apart from, in this case, something within the military's own organisation - which is the point I was making.

As no airworthiness issues are identified in the civil environment, the problem seems to lie within the BBMF alone. If it were otherwise it would (or should be) a matter that needs to be shared with all operators of either Spitfire and Hurricane aircraft or Merlin engines, as well as other non-EASA "Permit to Fly" types that have Merlin engines installed. As the grounding affects different aircraft types and different marks of the Merlin engine, I suspect oil or fuel system contamination or something similar as a most likely scenario.

[JEM60]

NIGE321. I was unfortunate enough to hear the Jeremy Vine piece.Air show organiser on it, who was fine. Woman 'Historian' who was completely off the wall, hadn't got a CLUE about aircraft, engines, flying. or the world in general, .
Her main concern was what would happen if the Lancaster stalled on take-off at an airshow and crashed into the crowd!!. All these old aircraft should be in museums, not in the air putting the public in danger all the time she crowed. Even my wife [non aviation person] was in hysterics at her rantings. DIRE!!!!

[Rigga]

As no airworthiness issues are identified in the civil environment, the problem seems to lie within the BBMF alone. If it were otherwise it would (or should be) a matter that needs to be shared with all operators of either Spitfire and Hurricane aircraft or Merlin engines, as well as other non-EASA "Permit to Fly" types that have Merlin engines installed. As the grounding affects different aircraft types and different marks of the Merlin engine, I suspect oil or fuel system contamination or something similar as a most likely scenario.
Stitching together the few facts on here and stirring in a little more speculation like everyone else is...
This thread sort of suggests that the RAF (BBMF) may have selected a supplier to manufacture new shafts/gears and may have installed the same standard in all their Merlins. If this was the case, civil owned Merlins may not have used the same supplier and, therefore, not be affected.

[IcePaq]

Dang.....better ground every single warbird with a geared distributor drive worldwide.

They're all gonna fall out of the sky at the same moment!!!!!!!

[salad-dodger]

Do people really say "Dang"? Thought t was just in the movies.

[sycamore]

No...`Gosh,dash it all,chaps`!...FFS...

[Stitchbitch]

There are a number of civilian overhaul companies out there, BBMF use one of them, while civilian warbirds operators use others. I note RRs Mk19 hasn't been out for a while, does anyone know if this is engine related (yes, I realise it's Griffon not Merlin).

[Four Turbo]

The 19 has been putting on a great performance here in Eastbourne.

[pax britanica]

I know there us a tendency in the UK to pour scorn on experts and common sense- lets deafen all the men working on Big Ben , they are only workmen we still want to here that chimes that Napolean and Hitler couldnt stop etc etc. Surely we can keep the BBMF going , Dunkirk spirit etc etc

As has been said these aircraft are very very old and were designed with a life expectancy in months not decades and the lovely exploded view of a Merlin (no pun) earkeir on shows just why recips were ditched the moment they solved the metallurgy problems of jets - too many moving bits in conflict with each other.

Now i absolutely adore the sound of a Merlin and no book aviation or otherwise had a better title than Spit test pilot, Alex Henshaw's, wonderful 'Sigh for a Merlin'. But surely if there is a problem ground the aircraft for a few months and fix it rather than risk a catastrophic display accident which post Shoreham could well be the death knell for UK Airshows.

And having said that i ahve had the delight this weekend of seeing and hearing two Merlins , one I think on a Hurricane ( but I might have been wrong with that one) and then just a few hours ago a P 51 snarling across the sky over Camberley ( the Hurricane , cos it was surely not a Spit ) took the same route . Was I right about the identification , as they dodged from view through the tree canopy heading North to South. I do love the sound of big piston props on a fast moving fighter

[Jackonicko]

Pax,

That would be all well and good if the BBMF aircraft were being 'worked hard and put away wet', and if they were subject to the rigours of a wartime environment, and wartime servicing, out in the open.

Except that the Spitfire and Hurricane were never designed to 'last months' in the way that (say) the Bf 109 was, and were designed to be as rugged and as robust as it was possible to make them.

And then there's the fact that these aircraft have been stripped down and rebuilt using an astonishing array of new parts - in many cases today's flying Spits are new aircraft built around a genuine data plate, and with original parts used simply as patterns.

They simply aren't the creaking geriatrics that you imply (unlike some of the posters on here).

Moreover these aircraft are minutely inspected - frequently, and are subject to a 'no expense spared' maintenance and overhaul regime that means that every part that can wear out will have been replaced - probably several times, and that parts that are subject to fatigue will be even more carefully looked after.

[500 Fan]

Surely if it all went quiet up front....no problem...i've seen Dunkirk and the engine out performance of even a Mk 1 Spitfire is just incredible......



Yea, I noticed that too. There are gliders that don't glide as good as that particular Spitfire!:ok:


500 Fan.

[pax britanica]

JAckoNicko

Thats a fair point and i wasnt at all meaning to imply that the Hurricane and Spitfire were throw away designs. As you say they are still going strong in many respects but there was as they say a war on and corners sometimes had to be cut and perhaps the materials spec was a bit looser than say on a modern airliner. Oddly enough i though one of the reasons we ended up on the winning side was because unlike the Germans who engineered everything (at least in the earlier years) we , perhaps at items through necessity, did recognise that life cycles in war are short and that a better version is always just around the corner. Of course by 1944 Germany was on an synthetic/ersatz/rationed economy for almost everything and they couldnt make some of the futuristic designs they came up with and if they could it was in tiny inefectual quantities

However the point I was trying to make is that today they fly for fun and to remind us of times no one (well almost know one) wants to repeat ie a beautiful continent torn apart in war. They are not being sent up to defend London or rain fire on Hamburg they are just decorating the sky looking and sounding wonderful. However if there was to be a fatal accident and the cause was a known engine problem then the BBMF would be grounded and for good too and that would be an awful shame , in fact a tragedy because as any real memory of the horrors of WW2 are almost completely gone , younger generations need something to get them interested in what happened and why and these wonderful preserved aircraft are probably the most inspiring tools for that job.

[Mike51]

Is it a verified fact that the BBMF's current problems are with the magneto drive, or does all this discussion stem from an 'I once read a book by Alex Henshaw' statement?

[Mike51]

So, after 4 pages about magneto drives and glide ratios of Spitfires, it transpires that the issue is a chipped tooth on a pinnon gear in the reduction gearing. Nothing to do with magneto drives.

[PDR1]

Why has that led to a fleet grounding - did the BBMF have a whole batch of these remanufactured and fitted in all their Merlins?

PDR

[VX275]

I heard from a Warbird pilot here at work that they found metal fragments (he didn't know their origin) but the SOAP (Spectrographic Oil Analysis Programme) tests didn't show up anything out of the ordinary. Therefore, a 'better safe than sorry' inspection of all the other engines was called for to better understand why the SOAP tests didn't give a warning.

[Pontius Navigator]

Actung Spitfire Buzzed by PR19 at 1930 local, couple pf passes then final pass over the house rocking his wings as he climber away.

[Phil_and_Sand]

Why has that led to a fleet grounding - did the BBMF have a whole batch of these remanufactured and fitted in all their Merlins?

PDR

No, the crank gear on one engine was found cracked. All other gearboxes are to be checked. I believe all gears are original manufacture, but have proven to be very reliable in service.

[aw ditor]

Griffon engine , probably an ex Shack. 57'?

[airpolice]

pax britanica:

we still want to here that chimes that Napolean and Hitler couldnt stop etc etc.

I expect that you mean Napoleon, the great French warrior who died 37 years before they built "Big Ben" and therefore would not have been in a position to silence it.

[1.3VStall]

PN, that was a flypast for the 92 Sqn Centenary Dinner being held at the Golf Hotel, Woodhall Spa that evening.

[bobward]

Two BBMF aircraft are being advertised for the static park at this weekends Scampton airshow.:ok:

[Ruperts Trooper]

Two BBMF aircraft are being advertised for the static park at this weekends Scampton airshow.:ok:

Scampton have emailed that subject to a air test tomorrow, the BBMF Lancaster and a Hurricane, plus a Griffon-Spitfire will display at Scampton this weekend

[unmanned_droid]

Yep,

The BBMF Instagram account put up a similar message. So, as I said there, well done to all the guys working hard to get them back in the air!

[Valiantone]

Well, I can say the Hurricane was out today and flew over me in Metheringham tonight.

And it was almost tucked away when the Silver 19 got back from NHT. Lancaster was back in the hangar by then. It was engine running Thursday:D

Beers for sorting them out....

Horse^^^^ for the numpties on forums who fly armchairs:eek::eek:

V1

[Pontius Navigator]

Mk XIX, Lancaster and Hurri doing flypasts for the Arnhem commemoration in the village right now.

[4mastacker]

1 X Lancaster flew through the Vale of Belvoir this afternoon at low level between Woolsthorpe and Belvoir Castle. A lovely sight and sound.

[The Oberon]

Mk XIX, Lancaster and Hurri doing flypasts for the Arnhem commemoration in the village right now.
All 3 displayed at Scampton this afternoon, wonderful sight.
Great job by all those involved in getting them back in the air.

[Pontius Navigator]

TO, the escort returned over later. Presumably the Lanc went to the Stacker heap.

[dragartist]

Lanc was at Godmanchester yesterday 9th September. Unveiling of the memorial to the Stirling that crashed. Buy Rogers book, Stirling to Essen, support to various Service Charities.

[andytug]

Lancaster and Spitfire flew over us yesterday on their way from Southport, looking and sounding fantastic as usual.