Early morning drinking and low cost profit

[N707ZS]

This subject seems to be quite hot at the moment but how big a loss would it be to airports who have low cost airlines?


Could early morning airport drinking be banned? A change in the law is being discussed - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/early-morning-airport-drinking-ban-12869166)

[vctenderness]

Well Mental Micky wants to ban the sale of alcohol in airports in order that his 'guests' can spend a bit more on board!

Would have been more believable if he had said he was going 'dry' if the airports did.

[N707ZS]

I see Jet 2 are thinking about an 8.00am start.


Had to post the attached just for the photos!


Jet2.com bans the sale of alcohol on all early morning flights (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/jet2-com-bans-sale-of-alcohol-on-all-early-morning-flights/)

[oldart]

Would you get overseas airports to do the same, I suspect not!

[WilliumMate]

I spent a couple of years flying LTN-AMS on the first Easy flight on a regular basis. I didn't see a great deal of drinking going on at 0500-0600. What I do see is a lot of pre-loading away from the airport. Yesterday afternoon having a quiet beer with an oppo four young lads were caning it for three hours before hopping a mini-cab up to the airport for their flight to Palma. No trouble but they put away a good deal of alcohol. When they can get four pints for £12 and pitchers of cocktails for £6 there is no incentive to pay inflated airport prices so no method of control over excessive drinking.

[whitelighter]

Alcohol shouldn't be served until 11. Who the he'll needs to drink for breakfast?
Hopefully it will make flying more pleasant for all

[ImPlaneCrazy]

But what does that mean for the flights that depart after the ban, in the afternoon? The problem must surely still exist... I know I'd rather have an extra hour in bed in the early hours whereas for an afternoon flight I would imagine people wouldn't mind arriving a little bit earlier.

It can't just be the morning wave that suffers with drunken disruptive pax...

[EastMids]

The airports are just money making machines who do not care about anything else.

Yep, like most businesses airports aim to make money, and a fair bit of it comes from sales of alcohol. Bars are often one of the biggest concessions on an airport. However admirable the cause, if you take that income source away then the money will need to come from somewhere else - like higher prices for car parking, drop off zones, and landing fees (which will directly affect air fares).

[Harry Wayfarers]

One day I had a crack of sparrow fart's 2 hour drive to LHR for a SAS flight LHR/ARN, straight in to a meeting at the (then) SAS Flight Academy, back out of the meeting just in time for a tea-time flight back to LHR.

By Christ did I need a beer but I had my car waiting for me at LHR ... Good ol' SAS, they had an very low alcohol beer on their menu, I could drink till my heart's content and still not worry about getting drunk or the old bill on the way home.

So here's a question ... How many airlines offer very low alcohol beer?

[mikkie4]

maybe....but it still tastes like gnats pee...sorry not for me

[Harry Wayfarers]

maybe....but it still tastes like gnats pee...sorry not for me

You mean Coke, Sprite and all those other drinks loaded with sugar taste better?

[easyflyer83]

Some airlines have tried Becks Blue. Needless to say, it didn't sell.

[Mr Mac]

Basic problem is flying is too cheap. LOCO do not want to pay any landing fees at all if they could and pay little as is. They do not want to spend on airbridges so its a bus or even better walk to plain. The airport has to cover the cost of terminal / fire serveice etc from somwhere, therefore food concessions / Duty Free / Bars / Parking are there only way of generating incom. My wife was involved for a number of years with a group of UK airports and the tales of LOCO negotiations made for intresting afterwork chat to say the least. If you could somhow wind the clock back to early mid 80,s with fares at those levels adjusted for inflation, and you could stop the airlines being greedy you may not have to generate income from booze sales also you may also change some of the clientele not to say other areas of society act well when heavily under the influance.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Trossie]

The airports are just money making machines who do not care about anything else.Yep, and exactly as EastMids has said "like most businesses airports aim to make money" as without it they go out of business. As so many of the pax are paying rock-bottom fares, there's not a lot for the airports to get from the airlines so they have to make their money some other way. It is hugely expensive running an airport (just ask what one de-icing run on the runway costs, if you want your eyes opened wide! ... and that is just one tiny cost compared with everything else). The money has to come from somewhere. So in the world of low fares, don't be surprised if the airports need to make as much as they can. I'm not supporting airports with anything in particular here, just explaining a bit of reality.

And as someone has mentioned, what is the difference between 8am and 11am? Are afternoon flights always an example of perfect sobriety?

[AirportPlanner1]

From the experience of lads/stag trips I've been on, morning flights we've got there as late as possible, picked up a bacon sandwich and headed straight to the gate. Anything later in the day and we've arrived at the airport in good time shall we say. Now, we're intelligent enough not to go overboard. While I know some others don't exercise the same restraint, I also know there aren't that many that intentionally arrive earlier than they need to at the crack of dawn for a 'session'. You can tell this easily, head into departure lounge Wetherspoon's at the crack of dawn and you'll see most people having breakfast.

Banning alcohol in the morning would do very little.

[Hotel Tango]

The only way to police excessive drinking is for airlines to impose a reasonable but set limit and warn passengers that random breathelizing will take place when boarding. Anyone who fails is off loaded with no refund. I of course use the word "random" loosely!

[Andy_S]

If people are determined to drink, they’ll find a way to drink. Binge drinking, unfortunately, is an integral part of some people’s holidays, and those holidays begin as soon as the subjects leave home. Closing bars until lunchtime will simply move the problem somewhere else, and as has already been pointed out will punish responsible drinkers.

I don’t have an easy answer, but ultimately the perps need to be forced to take responsibility. That may mean being refused boarding if they are obviously drunk or behaving anti-socially, or arrested either at their destination or on their return to the UK if they cause trouble on the flight.

[edi_local]

The problem with preventing boarding from taking place is that tanked up stag do's and hen do's will get violent. I've seen it happen many times. So often on one airline I used to handle that we had to have police at the gates on certain routes. Many GHAs use young ladies to board flights who cannot stand up to a group of angry shouting pissheads.

Like so many things in life there simply has to be a blanket action which affects everyone. The problem has just got too big in the UK. Sorry for those who can handle a drink at the airport and travel without affecting others, but far too many cannot and the softly softly, threatening to offload, divert, arrest, ban or cancel return trips just isn't working. It still goes on. Breathalyser tests at the gates, administered by bouncer style employees who can handle a drunk or an outright ban on all alcohol before certain times of day need to be introduced.

[Andy_S]

The problem with preventing boarding from taking place is that tanked up stag do's and hen do's will get violent. I've seen it happen many times. So often on one airline I used to handle that we had to have police at the gates on certain routes. Many GHAs use young ladies to board flights who cannot stand up to a group of angry shouting pissheads.

I'd suggest that allowing those sort of passengers to board - basically passing the buck to the airline - is extremely irresponsible. All the more reason for a crackdown. I don't pretend it would be easy, but looking the other way won’t solve the problem. It might take time, but if the message starts to get through that if you’re drunk and disorderly at the airport then you won’t be flying off on your holidays anytime soon then maybe these idiots might hold off on the drinking for a few hours.

And as I said previously, a blanket ban at the airport is likely to be ineffective. People who are determined to get wasted before they even board their flight will find other ways.

[edi_local]

I'd suggest that allowing those sort of passengers to board - basically passing the buck to the airline - is extremely irresponsible. All the more reason for a crackdown. I don't pretend it would be easy, but looking the other way won’t solve the problem. It might take time, but if the message starts to get through that if you’re drunk and disorderly at the airport then you won’t be flying off on your holidays anytime soon then maybe these idiots might hold off on the drinking for a few hours.

And as I said previously, a blanket ban at the airport is likely to be ineffective. People who are determined to get wasted before they even board their flight will find other ways.

But at least then people who are wasted when the arrive at the terminal will be either refused check in or refused to pass through security. They won't be contained airside where it's harder to get them and their bags off and removed from the airport.

I don't condone letting drunks on to aircraft either, not one bit, but the sad reality, in the UK anyway, is that it is happening too often because ground handling agencies either don't have enough staff to properly manage gates, don't have tough enough staff to stand up to thugs and drunks or the airlines simply don't give their GHA gate staff the authority to deal with them properly.

[SWBKCB]

The airports are just money making machines who do not care about anything else. Customer service, decent treatment of staff, all irrelevant if they can make money.

Just like airlines


Manchester Airport being a prime example as demonstrated by the stupid duty free shop you are forced to zig zag past just before emerging into the public area on arrival in terminal one and the ridiculous location of staff parking. Who cares about how long it takes to get to and from your car when on min rest when you can sell parking near to the terminal to the Public for a vast amount of money!

You could park nearer if your airline paid the going rate, and I don't think airports are responsible for airline rostering

[EGAC is Better]

I watched astounded a few months ago as a barman served more alcohol to a group of guys who were already so drunk they could barely stand. This happened airside at Belfast International Airport.

I'm not sure if they ever made their Easyjet flight to AMS after realising the 'gate is closing lads' and staggered on the long walk to the gate.

The fix is simple but probably very controversial; there must be common sense approach with zero tolerence enforcement. Airports must be made to responsibly serve alcohol and airlines must start refusing to fly those who turn up at the gate drunk. Don't just offload one, offload the entire party which forces a level of responsibility on those who are involved in this type of behaviour.

There will be confrontation to begin with of that there is no doubt. Plan for it and hire extra security staff. Once the message of zero tolerance gets out the problem will reduce.

Two weeks ago I sat next to a couple on a flight who earlier this summer had been subject to 'hell' on a flight from Belfast to Palma which was full of stag and hen parties. They were travelling with a young family and were stuck in the middle of rowdy, swearing and totally ambivalent groups who gave zero regard to their surroundings. The drunken state of these passengers was evident at the gate yet they were allowed to board. I find the airlines' disregard the for safety and comfort of the majority of their passengers quite distasteful.

[Hotel Tango]

I find the airlines' disregard the for safety and comfort of the majority of their passengers quite distasteful.

Indeed, but as has already been alluded to a number of times, the airlines only care about the revenue these idiots generate and don't really care a ###t about the rest of their customers!

[A4]

.....but the ground crew shouldn't let them through the gate in the first place. This is simply passing the buck to the Cabin Crew on the aircraft which is a much more difficult environment in which to deal with the problem.

In the past the Captain was informed if there was a problem passenger(s) at the gate, but now with everything time target driven, in my experience, it doesn't happen any more. All the pax through the gate by STD-15 - job done. The fact that 10 of them are a stag party and drunk doesn't come into the equation because that's now somebody else's problem (CC and Flightdeck) :rolleyes:

A4

[B2N2]

.....but the ground crew shouldn't let them through the gate in the first place. This is simply passing the buck to the Cabin Crew on the aircraft which is a much more difficult environment in which to deal with the problem.

In the past the Captain was informed if there was a problem passenger(s) at the gate, but now with everything time target driven, in my experience, it doesn't happen any more. All the pax through the gate by STD-15 - job done. The fact that 10 of them are a stag party and drunk doesn't come into the equation because that's now somebody else's problem (CC and Flightdeck) :rolleyes:

A4

Not to mention gate staff ate frequently no longer directly employed by the airlines but by third party contractors and paid low wages.
Constantly threatened job security if they don't 'make the numbers'
Also mentally not connected with the 'final product', they're just a 'cog in the machine'.

[handsfree]

Is it too simplistic to ask why the solution isn't just to strictly
enforce the Air Navigation Order which states that no person
shall board an aircraft, or be in an aircraft, while drunk.

Edit: sorry just read the previous posts and see they think same.

[vctenderness]

In more sensible times the ground staff would ask the Senior cabin crew to take a look at any passenger who had a bit too much to drink.

If their assessment was they were too far gone they would inform the Captain who would always say "If you think they are not safe to fly then off load them". Never had a problem with pre-loaders when this routine was followed.

[Meesterredmist]

There are relatively simple answers to this problem: it requires a will to resolve it and some decent co-operation and co-ordination between the relevant parties at the Airports. They all know the 'general' flight destinations that the 'target groups' will be flying on.

If they have a 'purge' and a) insist the bar staff at the airports warn people not to have too many before flying, and refuse service to people who are clearly OTT b) have additional security and police around for the 'target flights' and c) refuse offenders boarding at the Gates , then I reckon that the penny will drop with the people who over do at, as they'll either miss their holiday or have to pay out big time for subsequent flights......

at the moment, the 'guzzlers' know it's a free for all and they can do as they please.......

[inOban]

In past times, the road traffic acts said that you couldn't drive when drunk. It was realised that a measurable criterion was needed, so we had the breathalyser.

Surely the Air Navigation Order needs to be similarly amended to define drunk. The blood alcohol limit doesn't need to be quite as low, but the gate staff should have a duty to breathalyse any customer showing signs of undue 'merriment'.

[AirportPlanner1]

I noticed signs up at Glasgow warning of being refused boarding if you've had too much. That's the first and only time I've seen it in the U.K., in fact the first time I've seen it anywhere.

If the situation described by the previous poster in Belfast is true, that's actually a criminal matter because the server would be in breach of the licensing act to serve patrons who are clearly inebriated.

So again it comes back to a point I previously made, you don't need additional rules or restrictions you just need existing frameworks to be adhered to.

[Andy_S]

There will be confrontation to begin with of that there is no doubt. Plan for it and hire extra security staff. Once the message of zero tolerance gets out the problem will reduce.

This is my way of thinking as well. If the binge drinkers find that they miss 3 or 4 days of their holiday because they were denied boarding, then they might act more responsibly next time. It might take time, but hopefully the message will eventually become widely understood.

[Mr Mac]

Not always the obviouse routes either. My last two EK flights down to DXB were delayed leaving Manchester due to off loading of passengers who were actually denied boarding at the gate, and then had to have bags off loaded obviously. Good on EK and their ground staff I said, even though I personally then missed a connection on one occasion.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Pizzacake]

So, to the "you wouldn't see airports abroad stopping alcohol sales" guy, of course you wouldn't, while its not a exclusively British issue, its very much a mostly British issue. Most nations know how to behave, have a healthy relationship with alcohol and most of the people who behave like this, are flying home very hungover from airports abroad.

I feel that we need to just start hammering anyone who disrupts a flight with removal of passport for a period of time, up to and including life depending on the severity of the incident. Those of us who can get on a plane with a few (but never excessive) number of beers in us and interact with the crew properly and not be a nuisance, should not be punished. Just make it clear to people what will happen to anyone who transgresses and let them hang themselves. A few high profile lengthy travel bans and attitudes will soon change.

The only change I would enforce on airports, as they need the money, is that sales of miniatures should be banned as these are almost certainly bought in the majority of cases buy people who intent to sneak them onto the plane. Also immediate removal from the airport of anyone consuming duty free on site, no refund, no holiday.

There's something wrong with the idea of managing everybody due to the lowest common denominator.

[pholling]

I watched astounded a few months ago as a barman served more alcohol to a group of guys who were already so drunk they could barely stand. This happened airside at Belfast International Airport.

I'm not sure if they ever made their Easyjet flight to AMS after realising the 'gate is closing lads' and staggered on the long walk to the gate.

The fix is simple but probably very controversial; there must be common sense approach with zero tolerence enforcement. Airports must be made to responsibly serve alcohol and airlines must start refusing to fly those who turn up at the gate drunk. Don't just offload one, offload the entire party which forces a level of responsibility on those who are involved in this type of behaviour....



Offloading/refusing boarding for a whole group for the action/state of one member would be dubious legally. If the entire group is not legally fit to fly or violates the contract of carriage, then sure you can refuse all of them. However, if they are legally fit to fly and meet the contract of carriage denying boarding would mean that they would be entitled to compensation. Incidentally, if a licensed person or premises is selling alcohol to an intoxicated person they have violated the terms of their license, which can be suspended or revoked.

On the crazier idea end. Maybe someone should start a private prosecution of an air carrier for violating the ANO.