Air Berlin filing for bankruptcy?

[Southside Hangers]

According to the Deutsche Welle

[Less Hair]

Confirmed by AB and LH. Etihad halted it's payments for AB. Flights continue. Fed government is funding some bridging. LH is said to be taking over parts of AB soon.

[fendant]

Yep, German Government has opened a 150 Mio Euro Interim credit line to ensure current operations and orderly wind down. Germany has something similar to US chapter 11 in ist insolvency law.
Looks as if the AB days are numbered, seems to me to be a better invest than Alitalia:yuk:

[atakacs]

I guess I can say goodbye to the various compensations they still owe me...

[Thaihawk]

As reported on the BBC just now.

Some of their operations to be merged with LH?.

Air Berlin files for insolvency but flights continue - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40935559)

Either way, AB's days seem to be numbered.

How long before AZ goes the same way?.

[smith]

Not surprised really, they had too diverse a fleet and network. You'd always see just about every variant of every type at the stand in PMI.

[fendant]

I guess I can say goodbye to the various compensations they still owe me...


If the compensations are due under a German employment contract, you have a very good chance. Get yourself a German attorney asap who will file the Claims. Salaries are 1st in line under German law!

[rog747]

If the compensations are due under a German employment contract, you have a very good chance. Get yourself a German attorney asap who will file the Claims. Salaries are 1st in line under German law!

maybe he means EU compo for delays?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

150 million won't last long. Needs to be shut down sorry

[AviatorDave]

The 150M aren't supposed to last very long. Thery're meant as a bridge to shut down operations properly without leaving people stranded.

[testpanel]

So, i thought i better spend my earned miles in their "top bonus shop"....
Guess not....:ugh:

[PAXfips]

...without leaving people stranded.
..just before the Bundestag elections in late september.:suspect:

[Tu.114]

Yes, this money will be burnt up just like the other millions this airline has used up.

However: there are two reasons for this state-backed loan.

Firstly, there are elections coming up. If the government was to let thousands of German holidaymakers get stranded due to one of the major airlines folding, this would come to hound them.

And secondly, there has been quite some lobbying by LH who has wetleased nearly 40 of ABs aircraft for use on their own network (some for LH, some for OS). Were AB to halt all of their flying operations, as would have been required, was German insolvency law followed strictly if there had been no such loan, this would have dealt quite a blow to LHs operation as well.

So this loan is to buy AB some time to allow closure of the ongoing negotiations between them and LH on taking over some parts of the failing company, possibly including employees. Had AB folded today, there would have been a gap usable for FR and the like and the loss of German jobs would have been inevitable (see also the previous words on the upcoming election).

I´d expect there to be an agreement within a few days to weeks: LH will take over some profitable parts of AB, some slots may go to U2, and the rest of the airline will be scrapped possibly at the end of October.

[CDRW]

The Middle East three will be licking their chops with anticipation of qualified crew applying for employment.

[oldchina]

People have forgotten what "Low Cost Carrier" means

[racedo]

The Middle East three will be licking their chops with anticipation of qualified crew applying for employment.

Middle East 3 have pumped money and lost it in Alitalia and AB................ wonder who else will soak them of their money.

[safelife]

German media now reports AB to be split between LH and U2...

[Tu.114]

All of the ME3? Is it not rather only Etihad that went on a shopping spree, throwing train loads of money down Alitalias and Air Berlins bottomless pits?

Ryanair, in the meanwhile, has found the development much to its dissatisfaction. A complaint with the German anti-trust authority has been lodged, claiming that the present arrangement only served to allow LH to take over AB sans its debts and, therefore, was in breach of German and EU anti-trust legislation.

[oceancrosser]

Wonder how fast sales are going to dry up...

[racedo]

Ryanair, in the meanwhile, has found the development much to its dissatisfaction. A complaint with the German anti-trust authority has been lodged, claiming that the present arrangement only served to allow LH to take over AB sans its debts and, therefore, was in breach of German and EU anti-trust legislation.

It is if selective hiving off without seeking other buyers and leaving the bad bits behind.

LH will claim strategic but figure EU won't go along with that.

[Tu.114]

May well be, I´d be surprised though if LH was going into this unprepared and without having obtained a quiet nod or two from those that may be in charge already.

After all, LH has been in negotiations with AB for a while already, trying to find an agreement on buying one or another part of the latter. As a part of this, already for a few months, nearly 40 AB aircraft are flying wetlease on LH and OS routes. That EY would pull the plug today was likely not foreseen though: when Ms. Merkel visited the UAE some months ago, she was apparently promised that EY would stand by their commitment at least until November (i. e., after the German elections!).

It may be that a court will see a breach of anti-trust rules here after todays developments, but the opposite can be plausibly argued as well.

Assuming the federal bank guarantee has been granted already earlier this year (it has been requested, but the response did not make it into the news as far as I know) and just been paid out today may well turn todays declaration of bankruptcy a legal formality and explain the mode selected: there has not been a caretaker appointed by the court as would have been the case, was there no money at all left. The company has been allowed to appoint their own manager for the process, which is a sign that the court did not see all lost. And if the company is allowed to attempt to rescue itself, what is to keep it from carving itself up and selling parts of itself to get money and to keep going?

[RoyHudd]

Irrespective of federal bank guarantees, pax will cancel bookings and look elsewhere. AB is on the way out.

[Hussar 54]

It is if selective hiving off without seeking other buyers and leaving the bad bits behind.

LH will claim strategic but figure EU won't go along with that.



Well, that'd be a first for anything connecting the EU and LH.

It's usually the EU that seeks LH's approval before doing anything, not the other way round.

[lear999wa]

A little tidbit I found on the Internet.

EasyJet and Lufthansa will share Air Berlin
BERLIN - As a complete take-over of Air Berlin by Lufthansa is not possible under the cartel law, the British low-cost airline Easyjet will take over parts of the insolvent airline. "In essence, Air Berlin will be destroyed.

Lufthansa and EasyJet will continue the operation, "the newspaper" Welt "(Wednesday issue) quoted as an insider,

depending on the outcome of the anti-trust negotiations, which parts and routes go exactly to the two airlines the EU Commission contacted about it. industry experts are assuming that the Brussels competition authority decides on the future of Air Berlin.

the Easyjet competitor Ryanair is clearly outside in the filleting of Air Berlin. the Irish airline had already afternoon the rescue measures the Federal criticized.

the bankruptcy petition had been arranged "very clear" with the aim that Lufthansa could take over the Air Berlin, said Ryanair spokesman Robin Kiely. This would violate all German and EU competition rules. Ryanair appealed to the Federal Cartel Office and the European Commission.

[Hotel Tango]

So, if I've got this right, RYR appealed against DLH getting all of BER, so half has been given to EZY. Is that giving the finger to MOL by any chance?

[Denti]

Well, apparently currently negotiations are ongoing with LH and two other parties. The parts of the company will only be sold to companies that will keep most of the workforce under german contracts. Which of course is something ryanair would never agree to.

[lederhosen]

Easyjet moving into the Airberlin terminal at Tegel would certainly take a bit of pressure off Schönefeld, where the terminal is bursting at the seams. Even Ryanair would probably welcome that, as the date for opening BER recedes ever further into the future. The transport minister seems to be in favour of keeping Tegel open as long as possible, maybe indefinitely. But that would be logical, so its probably not going to happen.

[Bigt]

Is this the same Air Berlin that started off in the 1970s with money from a group of Oregon farmers?

[rog747]

air Berlin first time round yes was an american owned carrier operating holiday flights through the corridor like Modern air aeroamerica plus UK carriers Laker Dan air and channel airways did too
as German airlines were not allowed to fly into and out of Berlin until the wall came down


AirBerlin – the start of a success story on 28th April 1979, a Boeing 707 took off from Berlin-Tegel for Palma de Mallorca. This inaugural flight was the start of airberlin’s success story. During the oil crisis of the 1970s, the US pilot, Kim Lundgren, lost his job at Pan American in Europe. Instead of going back to the USA, he realised his dream and set up a charter airline. In 1978, the airline was incorporated in the US state of Oregon under the name “Air Berlin Inc.”.
This was because at that time, before the reunification of Germany, air traffic to and from Berlin was restricted to airlines from the Allied countries. The fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 brought a new challenge. Kim Lundgren lost his special privileges to Berlin and had to look for German majority shareholders.


1978-1990: American charter airline in West Berlin

Air Berlin's aircraft livery has changed several times. The original Air Berlin USA livery was used on the airline's Boeing 707s and Boeing 737-200s...

The Original Air Berlin USA
Originally registered as Air Berlin USA,the company was founded in 1978 as a wholly owned subsidiary of Lelco, an American agricultural enterprise headquartered in Oregon, to operate charter flights on behalf of German tour operators from Berlin Tegel Airport, mostly to Mediterranean holiday resorts.

The co-founders of Air Berlin USA were:

Kim Lundgren, a former Berlin-based flight engineer of Pan American World Airways;
John MacDonald, a former station manager of United States supplemental and charter airline Saturn Airways at Berlin Tempelhof Airport in the 1960s and subsequent general manager Europe and vice president at the Berlin Tegel Airport base of the former United States supplemental carrier and charter airline Modern Air from 1968 until 1974;
Mort Beyer, Modern Air's executive vice president from 1967 until 1971 as well as the airline's president and vice president of the National Air Carrier Association in 1971 and founder of United States aviation consultancy Avmark
Lelco was the agriculture business of Kim Lundgren's family in the United States.

As a United States airline, Air Berlin was able to access the West Berlin airline market. During the Cold War, Berlin's special political status meant that the air corridors into and out of Tegel Airport could only be used by airlines registered in France, the United Kingdom or the United States. The airline's headquarters were initially at Tegel Airport. Leonard Lundgren was the first chairman.

After the company was issued an airline licence and acquired two Boeing 707 jet airliners previously owned by Trans World Airlines, Air Berlin USA commenced revenue services on 28 April 1979 with a flight from Berlin-Tegel to Palma de Mallorca. Plans were made to start long-haul flights on West Berlin-Brussels-Florida routes,in cooperation with Air Florida (an agreement to that effect had been signed in February 1979).

In 1980, the Air Berlin USA fleet grew to include the Boeing 737-200, when two aircraft of that type were leased from Air Florida. In 1981, Air Berlin USA was continuing to operate scheduled transatlantic Boeing 707 service on a weekly routing of Berlin Tegel Airport - Brussels - Orlando;however, by 1982, the 707s had been phased out, and during most of the 1980s, Air Berlin USA operated only a single 737-200 or (from 1986) a 737-300. In 1990 and 1991, two modern Boeing 737-400s were also placed into service

707-331 plus -123B -321B -331b versions operated

in 1991 the air Berlin as you know today was formed as the USA owned airline no longer had privileges to fly from Berlin -

German reunification led to significant changes to the Berlin aviation market, since German airlines gained access to the city. In 1991, Air Berlin (which had 90 employees at the time) was bought by Joachim Hunold (de), a former sales and marketing director with LTU International, and restructured as Air Berlin GmbH & Co. Luftverkehrs KG, a German-registered company.Following an order for ten Boeing 737-800, Air Berlin grew and by 1999, the fleet comprised twelve aircraft. In 2001, Air Berlin became on of the first airlines in the world to have their Boeing 737-800s fitted with blended winglets

n March 2007 after enormous growth, Air Berlin took over famous German leisure airline LTU, gaining access to the long-haul market and becoming the fourth largest airline group in Europe in terms of passenger traffic. This deal led to the introduction of Airbus A330 aircraft into Air Berlin's fleet. The merger of the LTU operations, aircraft and crew was completed on 1 May 2009, when the iconic LTU brand was discontinued.

[ChiefT]

I wonder why Lufthansa should "take over" AB?

I believe they are interested in aircraft and crews only, possibly some parts of the maintenance in order to expand Eurowings quickly. All the rest is not necessary and thus would be unnecessarily expensive, wouldn't it? And taking over the assets only might avoid any questions related to antitrust law things...

[gearlever]

SLOTS. ......

[ChiefT]

Yes,sure.But they could buy them out for less...
The slots are the only valuable assets AB has...

[Thaihawk]

Easyjet moving into the Airberlin terminal at Tegel would certainly take a bit of pressure off Schönefeld, where the terminal is bursting at the seams. Even Ryanair would probably welcome that, as the date for opening BER recedes ever further into the future. The transport minister seems to be in favour of keeping Tegel open as long as possible, maybe indefinitely. But that would be logical, so its probably not going to happen.

Will Berlin Brandenburg actually open in the lifetime of anyone reding this thread in 2017?.

The alleged corruption involved in this project would make airport construction in Thailand look squeaky clean in comparison.

[Less Hair]

BER will not open before 2020. Construction works look like being almost frozen now. No visible progress anymore.

The even bigger problem is that the entire airport concept doesn't seem to fit anymore. They'd need some lowcost airline airport and one with way bigger capacity than BER alone can manage. Without airberlin even more so. I'd dare to say Tegel will have to remain open for some way longer time maybe forever.

[Litebulbs]

RASK €6.97
CASK €8.19

Why?

[Litebulbs]

The Remuneration Committee exercised its discretion to make alterations to the Remuneration Policy in respect of the remuneration package for Mr Winkelmann, on the basis that the circumstances prior to agreeing the remuneration package with Mr Winkelmann were both exceptional and genuinely unforeseen. The Remuneration Committee has balanced the Company’s need to secure Mr Winkelmann’s services at this critical time with a desire to ensure he is not rewarded for failure.


The following terms of Mr Winkelmann’s remuneration package shall form part of the remuneration policy: In order to compensate Mr Winkelmann for disadvantages relating to his pension incurred as a result of joining the Company, the Company granted Mr Winkelmann a one-off payment in the amount of EUR 300,000, payable 1 February 2017.


Mr Winkelmann was granted an annual gross basic salary of EUR 950,000 and a maximum variable payment (as determined by the Remuneration Committee) of EUR 950,000 subject to achievement of certain targets. Mr Winkelmann’s variable compensation will be settled in cash.
Mr Winkelmann is entitled to a one-off fixed minimum bonus of EUR 400,000 his first year in the office, payable 31 January 2018. Such payment will be set off against any other annual bonus paid to Mr Winkelmann in the course of his employment with the Company.


Mr Winkelmann’s service contract has an indefinite term with a notice period of six months for either party to take effect no earlier than 31 January 2019. Where the Company serves ordinary notice to terminate (ordentliche Kündigung) the employment contract which takes effect prior to 31 January 2021, Mr Winkelmann will be entitled to receive a severance payment equal to the total amount of his contractual base salary which would otherwise be payable for the period from the date the termination becomes effective up to 31 January 2021.


Where the Company has terminated the employment contract and there is a dispute between the parties as to the effectiveness of the termination of employment and/or whether Mr Winkelmann has any outstanding claims to remuneration or compensation against the Company, the Company will be required to continue to pay Mr Winkelmann’s contractual entitlements into an escrow account (EUR 400,000 on 31 January 2018; and his monthly salary and benefits) up to a maximum of EUR 4,500,000 (taking into account any other amounts received by Mr Winkelmann in connection with his employment with the Company), unless the parties either reach a settlement agreement or a court of first instance passes a judgment on this matter such that a lesser amount is payable. On reaching any settlement or receiving the court judgment, Mr Winkelmann will become entitled to the relevant amount, if any, from the escrow account

In order to secure the Company’s payment obligations under the service agreement for the period up to 31 January 2021, an irrevocable bank guarantee has been provided in favour of Mr Winkelmann in the amount of up to EUR 4,500,000.

[Litebulbs]

The annual report -

airberlin IR ? 2016 (http://ir.airberlin.com/en/ir/financial-reports/interim-and-annual-reports/2016)

[Litebulbs]

airberlin IR ? 2016 (http://ir.airberlin.com/en/ir/financial-reports/interim-and-annual-reports/2016)

[Litebulbs]

Or google airberlin annual report

[ChiefT]

This article in German "DER SPIEGEL" tells the story of the by bank guarantee secured remunerition of Mr. Winkelmann. In German only, sorry:

Air-Berlin-Insolvenz: Gehalt von Thomas Winkelmann abgesichert - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/air-berlin-insolvenz-gehalt-von-thomas-winkelmann-abgesichert-a-1163201.html)

[voice_of_peace]

it is interesting to note that the bridge or rescue package for Malév was blocked by EU, and all previous financial assistance immediately due for repayment (under the auspices of EU competition laws) when Malev hit hard times. Thousands lost their jobs and a great symbol of the nation's pride was lost. clock forward a few years and the AB rescue package goes through. a regular customer of both MA and AB they were both great companies, and i feel equally for employees of both organizations. i do. hope that AB employees find a good way forward in whichever form that might take. it is only a pity that nothing was done, and nothing was allowed, in the case of EU operator Malev, that flew for 66 years connecting central and eastern europe to the rest. it is clearly a double standard, unless of course legislation has been updated and new policy issued, during the interim.

[Denti]

There might be a difference. The current 150 million is not a rescue package, it is a loan that has to be repaid before any other creditor will see any money. It is not issued from the government, just secured from it. There was no prior financial help from the government at all. Which i believe is quite different to the Malev case.

The aim is to assure that the company can continue operating until it is sold off in pieces, which is expected in a few weeks. Original debt holders (mainly the unmentionable airline) will probably see less than a penny per dollar of their investment, if they do see anything at all.

[lederhosen]

It will be interesting to see when the dust has settled if there are any legal ramifications for senior management past and present. Some of the financial engineering appears to have been lets say imaginative. The sale of the frequent flyer program, which by the way is not surprisingly suffering some 'technical issues' right now is perhaps one example worthy of investigation. The only good news is that the pilots look to be very welcome in the LH group, one of the few potential win wins in this whole sorry saga.

[Denti]

Well, it is the truth after all. The loan is given by the KfW, not the government itself. Yes, the KfW is secured by the government, but not entirely controlled. And the aim is to sell airberlin off. The proceeds of those sales will repay that government secured loan first, and then go to all other debt holders. As the least likely interested party has already tendered a substantial bid well in excess of the 150 million for the whole company, i would guess that that loan is a very sure bet by the KfW.

No idea if the jobs will be safe, i would think that those on the ground are not as safe as many wish, and even those on board will face some uncertainty, although i have to say it is interesting to see how much the pilots LinkedIn inboxes light up all of a sudden.

[EAM]

Well, that only works if LH is paying for AB, so there is money to pay back the loan. But what if HRW will buy AB for the famos 1€, who will then pay it back? You know his concept.
The whole thing is setup, LH sent one of there managers a few month ago to AB, leasing 11 or whatever a/c for the Eurowings ops, they start a cooperation with Ethiad, now Ethiad stops sending money and LH wants to take over AB and all this with the support of Mr. Dobrindt. The only problem.....if you are flying a Dash, then you will be without a job in a few weeks.

[His dudeness]

Ryanair, in the meanwhile, has found the development much to its dissatisfaction. A complaint with the German anti-trust authority has been lodged, claiming that the present arrangement only served to allow LH to take over AB sans its debts and, therefore, was in breach of German and EU anti-trust legislation.

RyanAir feeling betrayed, dissatiesfied and sad ?

Monty Python could not make that one up... poor ole O´Leary....

[lederhosen]

Well MOL is reportedly now worth over a billion, so I guess that sugars the pill somewhat.

[Denti]

Well, that only works if LH is paying for AB, so there is money to pay back the loan. But what if HRW will buy AB for the famos 1€, who will then pay it back? You know his concept.

Yes, of course i know ;) Anyway, this time there is a court appointed lawyer who has to get the highest price, i doubt 1€ will cut it this time. Rumours are, he presented a bid over 1 billion €, which sounds rather high. Still, i dont see him even getting a place at the negotiating table.

[EAM]

We hope so ;)
So there is a lawyer to do the job, I thought the management does all on their own, no Insolvenzverwalter.

[gearlever]

Maybe HRW is a dummy for someone.....?

[BEA 71]

If my memory does not fail, no airline has ever been able to operate domestic services profitably since the first Lufthansa Convair 340 took off for a domestic flight in April 1955. Which has something to do with the size of the country. Exeptions have been " longhaul " routes, like Munich-Hamburg, or Stuttgart-Berlin, but only on Monday mornings and on Friday evenings, when the loads of Business class passengers were reasonable. Many knew better, many failed. Some have still to learn this. In my view it would be best, if Lufthansa gets the biggest part of the Air Berlin business. They could make the best use of slots, aircraft, and personnel. It has nothing to do with illegal take over, it would just be common sense. Having worked for a large airline, I know very well how important it is to work for a company with sound financing, good working conditions, high safety standards, and a decent pension scheme. Lufthansa would fit into this frame. I did not, by the way, work for LH.

[Denti]

We hope so ;)
So there is a lawyer to do the job, I thought the management does all on their own, no Insolvenzverwalter.

Well, yes, there is no Insovenzverwalter, instead there is a court appointed Sachverwalter who keeps an eye on everything and informs the relevant court and debt holders if something isn't done according to the law. Additionally there is a court appointed Generalbevollmächtigter who helps the management in matters of the restructuring and insolvency proceedings, in this case he is acively involved in the sale negotiations.

And yes, of course HRW is a dummy, but he doesn't say for whom.

I believe the inner german services out of berlin from Pan Am, BA and Air France were quite lucrative and very profitable, however, that was not really a normal situation, flying through the corridors over eastern germany.

[BEA 71]

Centi, some of the ISG routes were profitable, such as BER-MUC, BER-DUS which were in the " longhaul " category. Losses were made on most of the shorter routes which were subsidised from the profits made on the longer ones. Pan Am, who were operating widebodies on the BER-FRA sector, never made any gains. Most People travelling were connecting on to other airline´s long haul flights, Pan Am only got a very small portion of the total fare. Flights were always full, with long wait lists, but the income was poor. Very poor. The only airlines making big profits on German domestic routes after WW 2 were KLM, SAS, SABENA & Swissair, who, in the sense of the word, were monopolists. And they took advantage of it.

[BEA 71]

Apologies, I meant Denti...

[safelife]

Latest gossip is, 70 aircraft including crew to Lufthansa/Eurowings, A320ies to be put into a new (or recycled) AOC, A330 to go the SunExpress Germany, some of them to be based at Munich, 30 A320 including crew for easyJet.

[h3dxb]

anticipating I am an aircraft owner; what would I do ? I would have taken more than 0,76% of the value per month. This is what was done. Based on the former Tax law in Germany, people invested in Aircraft Fond. AB played with it as well.
unfortunate, you cannot survive as airline if you need to pay more than 1% monthly, even when a good friend supports you. Now he is busted based by a certain reason of pricing from the black substance coming out of the ground.
Hence he lays off all the high management and hope for better times.

yepp, now I can buy cheap aircraft's and slots and hell yaa I will do so

Irony off

All above is fiction, except I bought my aircrafts, OHH was not Air Berlin, was Transaero ;-)

[Fokkerdriver]

Safelife.....nice rumour :-)

As an EasyJet pilot who is very interested in working in Germany - is there any rumour about the 30 busses going to Easy being based somewhere in Germany....

Also Munich?

[safelife]

No details. Possibly Berlin, as it seems that 20 Airbus including crew are to be taken off ABs TXL base. But just rumours!
Still interesting since U2 was on the retreat to some degree, closing the base in HAM and not really expanding SXF.
But now the situation might have been reconsidered.

[Fokkerdriver]

I like that rumour :-)

I am based in Hamburg and did not really like the prospect of moving to a country where I do not really want to be - so any expansion in Germany is a very wellcome thought.

And Yes .... after the decision was made to close Hamburg most of us believed Berlin was next....so I am happy for both us and the Air Berlin Crew if we all get to stay in Germany on the reasonably good EasyJet German contract :-)

[BluSdUp]

For those of you that work in AirBerlin, I lost my job in a bankruptcy and dont wish it on my worst enemy.
Looks like your old LH are looking after you, but if not, I would consider contacting RYR if you flew B 737 and want a German base.Even with any command.

I know for a fact that RYR would be interested.
I have commuted since March 1999, I do not recommend it.

5 on 4 of within 1 hr drive from home is the good life.

[Denti]

Any pilot at airberlin that has a linkedin account already got the offer of a direct ryanair contract (not via one of the agencies) at the base he wants, no matter if he is rated or not. In fact, they were the first (of a lot) of interested employers to send that offer. It is however not something most would consider. At the moment the situation looks pretty good for those in the pointy end, less so for those on the ground.

[055166k]

Chance to pick up some DH8 routes. Enhance DUS base plans with German reg A/C and crews. Here's a freeby from a regular c
ustomer....market and paint job "FLYDE"...!

[gearlever]

QATAR is stepping in....
https://www.austrianwings.info/2017/08/qatar-airways-wirbt-um-air-berlin-piloten/

[Falck]

And Norwegian roadshow 24th of August in Berlin.
Together with OSM agency............

[Iver]

I hear Condor is also in the mix. Would they be looking at just narrowbodies or both A320/21s and A330s?

I wish everyone at AB the very best going forward.

[CCGE29]

Thomas Cook are searching for more second hand 330's however I doubt that they would take these as they are not Trent engined.

EasyJet will not want the aircraft, just the slots.

Condor could take around 10 A320 series aircraft

The 330's will probably go to Eurowings as will the rest of the 320's.

[Fokkerdriver]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air-berlin-lufthansa-thomas-cook-grp-idUSKCN1B416F


Let us see what happens...

[Less Hair]

Might become a longer debate. However they are said to burn their cash fast.

[oliver2002]

Thomas Cook are searching for more second hand 330's however I doubt that they would take these as they are not Trent engined.

EasyJet will not want the aircraft, just the slots.

Condor could take around 10 A320 series aircraft

The 330's will probably go to Eurowings as will the rest of the 320's.

There is no slot concept in Germany. Easyjet is out to get flight crew and some A320.

[Less Hair]

All AB long range flights from Berlin-Tegel seem to end soon. DUS long range flights seem to carry on.

[A0283]

About an hour ago the news said that Ryanair had stepped out ... Quoting their CEO... Because they could not get access to the takeover/bidding process...
And repeated the Ryanair claim that the bidding process was rigged and the timing of the bankruptcy declaration being in sync with the German elections.
Both aspects giving an 'asymmetrical' advantage to Lufthansa.
Expectation being that LH would take the best parts and only be limited by German and European anti-trust authorities.

[Denti]

Ah well, but everybody who wants has access to the bidding process, apparently currently talks are ongoing with at least 10 different parties, one of which is Lufthansa. MOL as usual was in it for a quick round of press attention in germany.

[A0283]

Same business radio station that i referred to yesterday had an update today. A major German aerospace/airline investor has pulled out of the bidding too. His statement was that he had access like everyone to the process, but refused to sign the required associated non-disclosure agreement.
The station added that probably four out of ten bidders would be left. But bidders probably interested in the same slots. Which suggested that LH at this stage would not bid for the whole company.

[atakacs]

Apparently AB has cancelled numerous flights today due to many pilots calling in sick (https://www.thelocal.de/20170912/air-berlin-flights-to-remain-grounded-on-tuesday)... Any more info about this ? What do pilots have to gain precipitating de demise of the company ?

[ATNotts]

In my experience, "throwing a sickie" is often cover for going for a job interview. Wouldn't surprise me if this was the case here.

[Hotel Tango]

Stress from not knowing wtf is going on probably! And what ATNotts says!

[lederhosen]

The union reportedly thinks the rather abrupt winding down of the long haul operation is a way of legally getting rid of the more expensive senior pilots. It is reported that ten of the A330s are now being returned to the leasor Aercap. A meeting between management and pilots ended unhappily yesterday and it appears today's chaos may be connected to that.

[atakacs]

I hate to break it but AB is for all intent and purpose bankrupt. They are just lucky that the German election are impending IMHO.
Not sure the pilots have a really strong negotiation position at this point. Yes the outcome will be painful but some might prefer worse conditions to no job.

[EYZ]

Now though instead of wasting AB/EY money they are wasting the German people's money, I'm afraid it's the last act of a dying pilot group, let's hope they find jobs someplace else soon.

[virginblue]

250 pilots have called in sick, so that would be a lot of job interviews on the same day...

From what is known, the company has refused a deal with the pilots about the conditions of the unavoidable redundancies and as a result, after yesterday's announcement of the end of most longhaul routes in two weeks time that will lead to a first orund of lay-offs, they have called in sick today.

[ironbutt57]

interesting....

https://www.eurocockpit.be/news/goodbye-etihad-thank-you-mess

[virginblue]

The insolvency administrator has urged the pilots on strike to show up for work - if not, he will have to ground the airline at short notice and close the shop for good.

[rog747]

is Fly Niki trying to save itself ?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

So the Pilots throw a sickkie and the Airline in even more stress than it is already. The Airline goes bust and without doubt the Pilots will be the ones who get jobs - might not be where they want to be - whilst the Ground Staff end up on the rock n roll. #great

[Hotel Tango]

The Airline goes bust Effectively, it already has. The pilots have nothing to lose. And let's be honest, would the ground personnel care about the pilots if the shoe was on the other foot?

[ExDubai]

Would be interesting to know why Aer-Cap pulled the plug.

[STN Ramp Rat]

All the bids have to be in by Friday. Maybe no one wants the long haul business so they have dumped it and its AB that have pulled the plug and not Aer-Cap

[virginblue]

The irony is that from the limited funds airberlin has available, the pilots are the only ones who get money from those funds - while salaries at the moment are paid by an insolvency fund and not the employer, airberlin has to pay the balance for all salaries that exceed a statutory cap - and these are the salaries of the better earning pilots.

[EcamSurprise]

At least one airline I know of who is involved are going to be asking for records and opinions on crews before offering them joining interviews. They are not going to be automatically taking everyone and so calling a sickie might not be the wisest move right now...

[StudentPilot479]

I have not had to deal with an employer going bankrupt (yet...), but I can hardly imagine how much stress this puts on all of the staff. How will they pay their bills and mortgages, what will happen in a month, three months, six months, etc.

I would expect (and hope) that many pilots who do not have a significant other that makes a good living individually and/or a large stash of cash saved for such situations would be under huge amounts of stress and should be calling in sick in this type of situation where you know your employer is bankrupt and you have no idea where you will end up, yet you are still expected to go to work every day as if nothing were amiss.

[oliver2002]

Each and every employee of AB knew this was coming. I seriously doubt this is hurting the crew out of the blue wrt bills and mortgages.

[ATC Watcher]

Apparently some have also have been told the conditions of the LH "rescue". Pilots not going to have LH contracts but Eurowings ones = 40% less for an AB Captain + Uncertainty about the A330s .
I understand from the media here that it is almost only Captains calling in sick. Same today apparently.
VC Cockpit not behind it.

[TBSC]

How killing off their present company will help that? Either they take the -40% or won't be employed and can go to China. They do not cause trouble for a functional company (which would be the point of a strike to reach something) only expedite the sealed fate of a wreck. Who cares if it happens tomorrow or in 3 months other than themselves as the employees of the said wreckage?

[RAT 5]

On wonders how it took so long. Some years ago AB had some very strange looking policies, from the outside. They dubbed a large number of flights via PMI or Berlin. I could buy an AB local ticket from ABC to TFS but I had to stop off in PMI, when I could buy a local ticket with local competition on a direct flight for less money. Guess which was there choice. Unless you were in PMI or Berlin there were not many interesting direct flights within EU; or so it seemed.
Then, at one time, before the long-haul crazy adventure, they were operating (I think) 4 different short-haul types when the competition were all operating single types and obviously lower cost. How could they compete and survive with that business model. Did they not then buy LTU long-haul routes and venture over the horizon before they had consolidated their short-haul base? And they were trying to offer a premium short-haul service for LoCo prices and a high cost base.
It did not seem a recipe for success many years ago. And I don't think pilot salaries had anything to do with the demise. It seemed a daft business plan years ago at a time when the strong contenders were consolidating their own cost bases & business model.

[virginblue]

Apparently some have also have been told the conditions of the LH "rescue". Pilots not going to have LH contracts but Eurowings ones = 40% less for an AB Captain + Uncertainty about the A330s .
I understand from the media here that it is almost only Captains calling in sick. Same today apparently.
VC Cockpit not behind it.

I think there is a misconception about the "Lufthansa" rescue. "Lufthansa" as the group of companies wants to come to the rescue, not "Lufthansa" as the airline. Lufthansa is a global company brand that includes something like a dozen separate airlines, only one of which is Lufthansa the airline (plus dozens of other non-airline companies). So it is a bit fanciful to assume by airberlin employees that they will be employed subject to the contract conditions of the Lufthansa group airline that pays the highest salaries. No sane investor in a bancrupt company would do that.

I have not had to deal with an employer going bankrupt (yet...), but I can hardly imagine how much stress this puts on all of the staff. How will they pay their bills and mortgages, what will happen in a month, three months, six months, etc.

They are getting paid for three months from an insolvency fund and so should be fine. Just like almost anyone else, pilots are not career civil servants with guaranteed lifelong employment, so redundancy is a risk they share with all employees who have to pay bills, mortgages.

I understand from the media here that it is almost only Captains calling in sick. Same today apparently

Calling in sick is reportedly a small group of captains on very generous former LTU contracts. They are not taking the "we enjoyed it while it lasted" (i.e. for decade since LTU disappeared) approach, but expect to keep the conditions with a future employer. With is quite understandable from their perspective - but realistically, they are not the ones calling the shots. What they apparently fear is that because of their fat cat salaries airberlin and the potential investor want to get rid of them by way of closing down longhaul ops which would give airberlin the opportunity to make them lawfully redundant before the company is taken over by someone else. Bit like brushing up the high maintenance bride...

[Denti]

They are getting paid for three months from an insolvency fund and so should be fine. Just like almost anyone else, pilots are not career civil servants with guaranteed lifelong employment, so redundancy is a risk they share with all employees who have to pay bills, mortgages.

The amount of money guaranteed however is less than half of the normal salary for pretty much all pilots at air berlin. So no, their pay isn't guaranteed.

Calling in sick is reportedly a small group of captains on very generous former LTU contracts. They are not taking the "we enjoyed it while it lasted" (i.e. for decade since LTU disappeared) approach, but expect to keep the conditions with a future employer. With is quite understandable from their perspective - but realistically, they are not the ones calling the shots. What they apparently fear is that because of their fat cat salaries airberlin and the potential investor want to get rid of them by way of closing down longhaul ops which would give airberlin the opportunity to make them lawfully redundant before the company is taken over by someone else. Bit like brushing up the high maintenance bride...

Again, not entirely correct. Yes, there are quite a few ex LTU captains in that group, but they are not alone there by far. And they do not have better contracts than the rest of the airberlin pilots, in fact the last LTU contract is around 40% less pay than the current airberlin contract. And since airberlin has no exclusive longhaul fleet but rather only MFF (mixed fleet flying) there is no way one can fire only those old LTU guys, however, prospective buyers of parts of the company could of course cherry pick, which they cannot anymore if a normal germany procedure called Sozialauswahl (social selection) would be followed. And the sick out is only about going into that social selection procedure, which is governed by employment law.

[virginblue]

The amount of money guaranteed however is less than half of the normal salary for pretty much all pilots at air berlin. So no, their pay isn't guaranteed.

Doesn't airbelrin cover the balance between the agreed salary and the statutory cap in order to stop the pilots from leaving the sinking ship?

Again, not entirely correct. Yes, there are quite a few ex LTU captains in that group, but they are not alone there by far. And they do not have better contracts than the rest of the airberlin pilots, in fact the last LTU contract is around 40% less pay than the current airberlin contract. And since airberlin has no exclusive longhaul fleet but rather only MFF (mixed fleet flying) there is no way one can fire only those old LTU guys, however, prospective buyers of parts of the company could of course cherry pick, which they cannot anymore if a normal germany procedure called Sozialauswahl (social selection) would be followed. And the sick out is only about going into that social selection procedure, which is governed by employment law.

So bottom line is that it is about one group of pilots against the other? And those on strike would rather sink the whole ship than keep it afloat if as a result the other group of pilots has better chances to get hired? I don't see how management can cave in here - if the striking pilots get their will, the majority of non-striking pilots will see their chances of employment with an investor shrinking.

[Hussar 54]

A bit harsh of anyone to come on here to call out any AB crews trying to maintain their T&Cs given the strike record of LH's crews over the past couple of years.

[virginblue]

Well, last time I checked Lufthansa never stood on the edge of the cliff...

[atakacs]

A bit harsh of anyone to come on here to call out any AB crews trying to maintain their T&Cs given the strike record of LH's crews over the past couple of years.
The situation is hardly comparable.
The striking pilots are playing a very dangerous game IMHO - I understand that they might only have bad choices but it could backfire quite violently...

[Hussar 54]

Well, last time I checked Lufthansa never stood on the edge of the cliff...


Agreed.....

But was it 14 or 15 or 16 strikes over the past couple of years and always about their own T&Cs....Never about the poorer T&Cs in other Lufthansa Group Companies such as Aerologic, Tyrolean, Eurowings, etc.

And let's be honest, AB fell off the cliff months or even years ago - it isn't stood on the edge and, as always, hardly anything to do with or fault of the crews.

[Hussar 54]

This gives me no great pleasure, but....

https://centreforaviation.com/insights/analysis/airberlin-must-aim-for-a-profit-in-2016-after-eighth-straight-operating-loss-in-2015-and-1q2016-loss-279882

Eight successive years of operating loss

For airberlin 2015 was its eighth successive year of operating losses and its seventh net loss in the past eight years. The only net profit reported in that period, in 2012, was achieved only thanks to the sale of its topbonus loyalty programme to Etihad, shortly after Etihad became airberlin's biggest shareholder in late 2011.

[Hotel Tango]

A few posters have made similar comments and I wonder what the factual basis is for them?

Perhaps RAT5's post is closest. I remember thinking along the same lines several years ago. Their business model was basically a shambles from around the time they went for the PMI hub and their acquisition of LTU. I remember, at the time, flying DUS-MAD-DUS in their European Business Class for €280.00, and thinking it won't last.

[EDDT]

Agreed.....

But was it 14 or 15 or 16 strikes over the past couple of years and always about their own T&Cs....Never about the poorer T&Cs in other Lufthansa Group Companies such as Aerologic, Tyrolean, Eurowings, etc.


The actual number of strikes was much less, because the tactics was "needle stitches".
Example:
Monday short haul, Tuesday long haul.
Some months later 6-12h clock long haul, the rest of the day short haul...
So the media (or public relations) just counted every fleet as another event.

And one can only strike for ones -own- collective agreement. It's illegal to strike for anything else.
That's the problem. Employer tries to outplay the different pilot groups against each other.
But Eurowings could strike as well, they have their own CA. Not Eurowings Europe though, their AOC is not even in Germany.

Btw. Aerologic is not a Lufthansa group airline whatsoever. They are just a joint venture with DHL and their pilots do not have a collective agreement / union representation. Their wages are freely negotiated. Neither can they switch companies within the group.

[Denti]

And one can only strike for ones -own- collective agreement. It's illegal to strike for anything else.
Actually, sympathy strikes are legal if certain guidelines are followed.

[ATC Watcher]

Except this was not a strike but individual people calling in sick.( or more correctly unfit to fly)
Big difference from a legal point of view.
I also understand that VC Cockpit is not supporting the action. So AB cannot even call it a collective action so I do not see AB going to court over this.

[Denti]

No, they won't. Because they know, even if there was a somewhat organized thing, that it wasn't the reasons for the cancellations. The sick rate for captains was 8% higher than the average, for FOs around 5%. That is well within the normal day to day variations. And the company did cancel flights where the crew was already on board and preparing to fly, for no apparent reason.

Already six months ago they knew that they won't have enough pilots for the september schedule, and that got worse three months ago when they decided to go from 60 to 75 minutes check in time and from 30 to 45 check out time starting 1st of september, which increased the crew demand considerably.

Apparently a huge operational problem was covered up by having a convenient scape goat.

[ATC Watcher]

Thanks for that inside info Denti. Sounds exactly to what the Spanish old ANSP (AENA) did with the controllers in Madrid some years ago. Diversion to hide a bigger problem and using the media to focus on easy "overpaid" targets . Sadly it worked .

[ITman]

It seems like that Niki Lauda is interested in Air Berlin

Former F1 champion Niki Lauda eyes parts of Air Berlin, Transport - THE BUSINESS TIMES (http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/transport/former-f1-champion-niki-lauda-eyes-parts-of-air-berlin)

[RoyHudd]

Lauda, along with other vultures, is looking to pick up "profitable" carrion.

None of those fools know what they are doing, just airline failures on their cv's.

[jaja]

CONDOR seems to be part of it as well :

http://www.avitrader.com/2017/09/14/niki-lauda-and-condor-join-forces-to-bid-on-part-of-air-berlin/

[virginblue]

Interesting post on the German PPRUNE - an insider claims that it is all a stitch-up and Lufthansa group has bought 10 of airberlin's A330-200 from AerCap in order to stall the interest from other investors in taking over airberlin inclusive of the long-haul ops. Another source alleges that IAG had been looking into that part of airberlin with the aim to expand Level. Depending on how the sale of airberlin itself works out, it is said that Lufthansa is planning to get Eurowings long-haul started at DUS with the help of Brussels Airlines (while until now Eurowings longhaul is exclusively operated by SunExpress)

[oliver2002]

The bids are in:
Mehrere Bieter für insolvente Air Berlin | Reuters (http://de.reuters.com/article/deutschland-air-berlin-idDEKCN1BQ1WC)

LH Group is offering a low 3 digit million € figure to get 70-90 aircraft, probably as a stand alone unit of A320 aircraft and crew to serve EW. Condor and Lauda are bidding for A320s, as is Easyjet. It doesn't look like anyone bid for the longhaul business, probably because of high LTU flight crew contracts. LH it seems made deals behind the scenes with Gecas and/or Aercap to take the A332 for EW longhaul.
Zeitfracht wants the LGW, Leisure Cargo and the MRO operation.
Utz Claasen, Wöhrl and Jonatan Pang each want to take over the airline completely... :D

[Denti]

It doesn't look like anyone bid for the longhaul business, probably because of high LTU flight crew contracts.

There is no LTU flight crew deal. There is still one for the cabin crew though. The current flight crew deal is the air berlin one, which applies to all pilots, no matter from which company they originally came. There was a special deal for some high seniority FOs, however that is gone by now as well as they have been trained to be captains.

Anyway, longhaul is by now pretty much evenly operated by ex LTU and AB crews, and all of them are rated on both the A320 and A330.

[lederhosen]

An interesting aspect of Denti's point that AirBerlin has been undercrewed is that up to now there has been a significant monetary incentive for people to work on days off. But if you are not sure that you will ever see the money then why bother?

[industryhack]

Pilots calling sick just accelerates the end. Staff at Air Berlin are not happy with pilots ruining chances of successful takeover

[ReallyAnnoyed]

It looks like IAG are interested in parts of Air Berlin as well:

AviTrader ? Lufthansa and IAG emerge as main contenders in bidding war for Air Berlin (http://www.avitrader.com/2017/09/20/lufthansa-and-iag-emerge-as-main-contenders-in-bidding-war-for-air-berlin/)

[daz211]

The airberlin bankruptcy reached a new level of complexity and uncertainty, after a creditor filed an application to declare Austrian subsidiary NIKI bankrupt as well. The legal action, if successful, would likely torpedo previous rescue efforts and lead to the collapse of most, if not all, proposed transactions by potential investors to pick up parts of the airline. Once declared bankrupt, NIKI would lose its operating license and its airport slots, the basis on which bids have been made. ...

[rog747]

was Niki making money - they seemed an OK airline

[Bigpants]

Normal Bankruptcy or Alitalia style Euro Bankruptcy?

[atakacs]

I don't see the German leaving an outsider pickup any significant part of AB.

[dirk85]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-22/lufthansa-easyjet-get-inside-track-on-buying-air-berlin-assets?

[MKY661]

Interesting Read:
Airberlin Ceasing Operations As Of November 1, 2017? - One Mile at a Time (http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/09/28/airberlin-ceasing-operations-as-of-november-1-2017/)

[MKY661]

Ceasing Operations on 28 October. Niki & LGW as well as all aircraft leasing arrangements will continue as normal.

[Denti]

Ceasing operation under the air berlin brand, flight operation will continue as wet lease operator, all slots to be sold will have to be operated by air berlin until the eu commission gives their green light.

[rog747]

is Niki going under too?

[Annex14]

rog747

As far as news and TV reports say - No !
It appears LH Group has placed a very attractive bid for Niki. Amazing also that offer for LGW. Well, as of Thursday we should know how the case proceeds.

[pax britanica]

Was there anything more to Air Berlins failure than

1 Not controlling costs
2 Stupid venture into long haul for aLoCo
3 the disaster of BER , their planned hub and homebase being ten years late in opening and therefore not allowing optimum use of their fleet.

or is the silent but heavy hand of LH doing more behind the scenes to contribute to its demise before it harmed the LH operation

[lederhosen]

Actually LH was pretty happy that AB was filling a space that would otherwise have been filled by much more threatening competitors.

[Denti]

Lufthansa today signed the deal with airberlin. They bought LGW (20 DHC-8-400) and Niki (21 A320) plus slots for another 13 A320 from AB, they already own another 20 A320 that are currently operated by airberlin. Additionally to that they will wetlease seven 737s from TUIfly.

So far they have applications from 8 pilots from airberlin, the rest is not interested at the current offer. Which means that around 33 aircraft they bought will be grounded very soon due to lack of crews.

[atakacs]

Lufthansa today signed the deal with airberlin. They bought LGW (20 DHC-8-400) and Niki (21 A320) plus slots for another 13 A320 from AB, they already own another 20 A320 that are currently operated by airberlin. Additionally to that they will wetlease seven 737s from TUIfly.

I guess there is no surprise here - there was zero chance for an outsider to enter this market.

So far they have applications from 8 pilots from airberlin, the rest is not interested at the current offer. Which means that around 33 aircraft they bought will be grounded very soon due to lack of crews.

That's the interesting part of the story - I'm really curious to see who will move first (ie LH proposing bette conditions or AB pilots lowering their guard).

[Hussar 54]

Ah....At last....A fellow traveller.

I've been banging on here about LH and its acquisitions and immunity to monopoly considerations for the past five or six years....

Disgraceful, shameful, ridiculous what they have been allowed to get away with - almost invites anyone, and I mean anyone, to believe that the EU is run for German benefit.

Wonder if the corrupted ( sorry - meant to say acquiescent but don't know how to spell it ) ones in Brussels will insist that LH give up a percentage of the AB slots they have acquired at FRA as they inisted on the BA takeover of BMI....

Look....A pig !


Edited to add.....There are quite a few rumours and whispers in the UAE that a certain airline in the Middle East are seriously considering taking legal action for compensation from more than one single party / civic group as, they argue, the fiasco which is the 'new' Berlin airport contributed significantly to AB's inability to fully implement the strategy agreed when the Middle Eastern airline agreed its initial investment in AB.

Now that really would be interesting....

[Heathrow Harry]

"almost invites anyone, and I mean anyone, to believe that the EU is run for German benefit."

"the race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet" Dmanon Runyon

[His dudeness]

almost invites anyone, and I mean anyone, to believe that the EU is run for German benefit.

In the words of the black Adder: Hussar54, who is currently using the family brain cell ?

If you have not understood til now that the EU is an instrument mainly for the benefit of big corporations (them being German or any other "nationality"), then...you can´t be helped me thinks.

And just for your information (although I do have a feeling you already now that and that you also like to express your animosity against citizens of a neighboring country):

Lufthansa is not Germany nor German per se. Its a company that stock is traded. Even you can "own" it.

Have a look: main stockholder lufthansahttps://investor-relations.lufthansagroup.com/en/aktie/shareholder-structure.html

[Musician]

Lufthansa pays taxes in Germany. If they do well financially, it benefits Germany. I think most countries would wish to support their industries, and most politicians would wish to keep their sources of tax revenue. Go look in that Bombardier thread what the US are doing for Boeing. Money makes the world go 'round. (That doesn't mean that the EU aren't run for Germany's benefit. Ask Varoufakis, or read his book.)

[Heathrow Harry]

Shock horror.. major airline tries to build a monopoly....

Alitalia,Qantas, BA, JAL, SAS never thought of that .......

[BCAR Section L]

no you make it quite clear you don't think. It is not being done legally and is being supported by a government is the tone of the german press and others. That should make you concerned.

Imagine the same government is dictating brexit terms with the same integrity. Did monarch get the same level of government support?

The whole scandal and it is a scandal has wide ranging implications once the story develops a little more.

[gearlever]

The difference is 60 millions GBP to bring the Monarch pax back home are paid bei British tax payers.
Most probably German Government/tax payers will get the 133 mio GBP AB credit back pretty soon....

[BCAR Section L]

it seems pprune really is UK orientated.

Many inner german routes will now only have lufthansa or eurowings flying the route. Previously air berlin competed on such routes.

Carsten Spohr (Lufthansa CEO) stated this week that passengers have no need to worry about price hikes on such routes as eurowings and lufthansa will be competing. He obviously also thinks the general public are as intelligent as heathrow harry.

The sell off of parts of air berlin is also very interesting as lufthansa have been allowed to cherry pick exactly what they want unchallenged. Easyjet are still in discussions but are reportedly unhappy at the slots lufthansa have left them and have therefore reduced the size of their offer. Discussions continue.

Lufthansa are also championing as fact they saved around 3,000 jobs at Niki and LGW as a result of the takeover. Niki and LGW did not declare bankruptcy and are going concerns. So some strange logic in use there as well.

[lederhosen]

Pretty unlikely LGW and Niki would have survived long on their own. Air Berlin sold the seats so the creditor situation is an interesting one. Actually it is amazing that Air Berlin is being wound up in a more or less controlled fashion. Some sort of legal follow up with long drawn out court cases seems highly probable.

[Machrihanish]

Niki Lauda in todays Welt am Sonntag. Basically the German Sunday Times.
He gladly sold ailing LaudaAir to the Austrian government in 2000.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/1322190/Lauda-ditches-Austria-after-losing-airline.html
AUA-Verkauf besiegelt: Kranich soll Flügel verleihen « DiePresse.com (http://diepresse.com/home/wirtschaft/economist/435595/AUAVerkauf-besiegelt_Kranich-soll-Fluegel-verleihen)

[Machrihanish]

Lufthansa are 34% government owned ...
Time to destroy some pages of your manual. Cave: this time around, the right ones... :8

[Annex14]

How about we all stick to original theme of this thread : Air Berlin filing for bancruptcy ??
Fact is Air Berlin went bancrupt afer all these many years of losses.
Fact is the German Government took its responsibilities for its Citizens - AB Passenger - serious and enabled a well coordinated repatriation for those abroad.
Fact is the KFW credit of 150 mio Euro will be payed back from the payment of 220 mio Euro LH layed on the table for "aircraft".
So very different from that Monarch case no tax money wasted.
I tend to bet that in a month or two no "better knowing" and even more the public will waste a word on the case.

[Machrihanish]

Germany’s transport ministry already faces allegations by the European Commission ...
About time.


The truth ... :uhoh:

[Musician]

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-air-berlin-lufthansa/lufthansas-swoop-on-air-berlin-stirs-competition-concerns-idUKKBN1CI1SI
That's an interesting article on the monopoly situation. Some quotes:

"The German cartel office said it expected the European Commission to take a close look at the deal."
"Ryanair (RYA.I) CEO Michael O‘Leary has called it a “stitch-up”, saying it would give Lufthansa a 95 percent share of the German domestic market."
"Lufthansa has said it has a market share of 34 percent on routes to and from Germany, while Air Berlin had 14 percent. With the takeover of parts of Air Berlin that will remain below 48 percent, which Lufthansa says is equivalent to Ryanair’s market share in Ireland."

Ryanair was operating Berlin-Cologne, but with the recent spate of cancellations, that one got cancelled. Maybe German domestic flights aren't all that profitable? There's the high-speed rail system, the fact that the central airports Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich are at capacity, that anyone who has slots there (including Ryanair) can more profitably use them to operate international flights (European or intercontionental), and that with the cost development in air travel, many smaller airlines and regional carriers have not been able to operate profitably (obvious examples would be Niki Lauda selling Niki, and Air Berlin going bust). So the options for domestic air travel seem to be either a) Lufthansa doing most of the flights, b) nobody doing them, or c) tickets getting a lot more expensive, which would allow for competition to be profitable again, but creates the situation that competition is meant to avoid.

I think it's much ado about nothing.

[Machrihanish]

I wonder how pprune would have responded if monarch had been given a government loan and then the public informed that a committee would deal with the sale to the highest bidder. On the committee would be british airways and british airways end up buying all the good bits at a very good price...
So BCal was an orderly shut down.

As was BeeMed.

As was Midland.

Thank heavens.

Michael O'Leary has judged the air berlin situation correctly. This is not about an orderly shut down ...
... making dearly needy Qatar happy with ATOL money.

[Machrihanish]

... There's the high-speed rail system, ...
... which, as a system, is bleeding time and again at tax payers' expense.

So the expectable boost in rail fares will free up tax money for infrastructure refurbishing, which seems a better investment than domestic flight from no less packed airports at giveaway fares.

But, yeah, ol' Eary has been wanting Air Berlin so badly for so many years now.

[ExXB]

Time and again we have seen that in relatively low populated countries two or more airlines are financially unsustainable.

Only in the US, with its significant market size, do we see a plurality of (relatively) successful airlines

In an industry with a $10 per passenger profit, in good years, this shouln’t be a surprise.

If you want to make a small fortune in this business, you need to start with a large one.

[heavydane]

Funny to watch this supposedly professional pilots network, where pilots are screaming for more competition.
When has competition ever done anything good for T & C's in Your profession gentlemen?

[Machrihanish]

lets see if the EU will be fussy about rules /regs/laws when a gain can be made?
It's not been in a long time.

Heck, from the German side, Air Berlin was meant to be a German Virgin or easyjet, but they never found the people to do it. Deutsche Bank was a driving force in the glueing together of smaller German airlines, one of which former British Airways'-IGS-successor Deutsche BA a.k.a. flydba, and IPOing that vehicle. The masters of da universe had spoken, which led former chairman of the LH supervisory board Weber to eliminate Deutsche Bank's seat in said board.

Now the modu's taxi drivers have spoken.

[gearlever]

Funny to watch this supposedly professional pilots network, where pilots are screaming for more competition.
When has competition ever done anything good for T & C's in Your profession gentlemen?


You nailed it....

[PAXfips]

Last longhaul flight landing in DUS with a special pilot feat..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N78rajMN0Mo

as seen from ATC https://m.facebook.com/thomas.einwag.3/posts/1702720496416451

[Hussar 54]

And yet more....

https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/english/press-releases/all/lufthansa-group-submits-a-concept-for-establishing-a-re-structured-alitalia/s/42e98152-a9a8-43b6-ad36-704bed9a4929

[atakacs]

I am really surprised by this development. Unless they manage to impose drastically lower T&C (unlikely) I don't see the business case.

[Farrell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-5ZvTgc3F4

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Pilots never learn you have to assume AB were not aware

[Nightstop]

Passengers on board? Not acceptable, no matter what imho.

[stator vane]

You must be joking?

A little roll back and forth? What is the problem?

Live a little!

What has aviation downgraded to?

[172_driver]

If they're trowing in the towel after this what would they care...

[Nightstop]

Pax are paying for a safe flight from A to B, not unwilling participants in a flyby. These guys should be hang, drawn and quartered. Don’t bother applying for a job at my Airline either, we don’t want you.

[EDMJ]

And what exactly do you do at that airline? Anyway, don't worry :hmm:The engines had hardly spooled down before the Luftfahrtbundesamt in vorauseilender Gehorsam blew their trumpets in the public, announcing that they were onto the case.

Unprofessional behavior, yes, but there are in my opinion other issues in aviation that need more attention than this..

[Spunk]

Tower asks me for tower inspection like once a week. So, what’s the point. Flying without approved SOP for “flyby”.
Damn hysterical germans.
And for the LBA: where have you been when the management :mad:. What happened to the proof of economic capacity required for all the small airliners struggling every day.
Instead you‘re going after a pilot who finished his last day at the company with some melancholy and who dares to fly his plane in manual mode.

[EDMJ]

Approx. €700 Million deficit during each of the last couple of years, wasn't it? Operations only possible because of Emihad's cash injections?

[Jonty]

Looks like a standard go around to me.
Good for them.

[paperHanger]

Looks like a failry standard go around to me.

The press claim i caused "alarm" amongst the pax, if you listen to the onboard recordings made by pax, everyone was laughing and clapping.

Now, if they had rolled it ... ;)

[student88]

Excellent display by the Germans! Someone give that man a job!

[msbbarratt]

SLF here: if they're going to fly an uneventful, boring flight, it had better be on time.

On the other had; if the captain said on the tannoy "ladies and gentlemen we are going on a low level tour of the airport and surrounding countryside", count me in, screw the schedule, forget the taxi, lets go burn some fuel. And yes please, do a barrel roll but please make the first one at some decent altitude because I don't think you'll have had much practise with them on this type.

[ShotOne]

No doubt the same authorities (and pprune PC-pilots)who see nothing wrong with pay-to-fly bare-minimum training schemes, zero-hours contracts, wet leased aircraft operated for years far from their regulator, rostering to exhaustion and beyond will be tireless in their investigation of this "incident".

[SMT Member]

Well done that man and his crew!

If I was the owner of an airline, I'd be making a beeline for his LinkedIn account faster than you can say 'DFO'. We need real people with real skills in the cockpit, who can use their vast experience and skills to perform out of the ordinary when called for. This guy certainly know his aeroplane, and used a once-in-a-lifetime chance to send his airline off in style.

And I will bet you all the tea in China, the passengers in the back was loving it as much as the crew up front. As for the LBA, quite possibly one of the most inept, arrogant and in-bread regulators in the civilised world, they can go stuff themselves.

Well done, well done indeed!

[His dudeness]

Pax are paying for a safe flight from A to B, not unwilling participants in a flyby. These guys should be hang, drawn and quartered. Don’t bother applying for a job at my Airline either, we don’t want you.

This implies that the flyby was unsafe. It wasn´t, case closed. I sure hope what YOU want does not play a role in the airline you are.

[wheels_down]

Pre Approved manoeuvre.

Bunch on whiners on here as per usual from the children of the magenta line.

[RHS]

The crash databases are full of non compliant, unprofessional "stick and rudder Gods"

Come on with this "children of the Magenta whining" rubbish, it's not exactly a hard manoeuvre to pull off, and if it wasn't sanctioned/approved/briefed/trained then he/she probably doesn't own a license anymore. Bent metal box much.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

UK CAA would go after them also. What would be the yay men's attitude had something gone wrong.
I wonder if the Captain will put this on his cv....

[gearlever]

Would the UK CAA ignore a video taped incident like this (0:28)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kle80KB_s3I&t=28s

German LBA/BFU did.....

[RAT 5]

As someone said, a standard ground: due to losing the visual reference at low level because of tears in the eyes. A/C about or trending towards unstable, so a GA is the SOP. ;)

[Dan_Brown]

Leave the air show antics, to the current air show pilots, who are current on type.

[cactusbusdrvr]

Pax are paying for a safe flight from A to B, not unwilling participants in a flyby. These guys should be hang, drawn and quartered. Don’t bother applying for a job at my Airline either, we don’t want you.

If the rest of the pilots are like you then, no, no one would want to bother applying to your airline. GMAFB, it's a go around, not an inverted fly by.

[cactusbusdrvr]

No doubt the same authorities (and pprune PC-pilots)who see nothing wrong with pay-to-fly bare-minimum training schemes, zero-hours contracts, wet leased aircraft operated for years far from their regulator, rostering to exhaustion and beyond will be tireless in their investigation of this "incident".

No doubt. Lots of people on here who appear to be required to be lead by the hand for everything. I worry about the guys who wouldn't do a last fly by. No soul.

[PAXfips]

The A320 (registration D-ABDX) on flight #AB3928 from Düsseldorf arrived in Reykjavik at 10:55pm yesterday, but the return flight earlier this morning was cancelled.
Isavia, Iceland’s airport operator issued a statement saying “Air Berlin filed a petition of the opening of insolvency proceedings in August and the unpaid airport charges incurred prior the insolvency period.”…”Isavia will have additional member of staff located at the airport to assist those who will be affected by this action if needed.”
http://www.airlive.net/breaking-air-berlin-a320-grounded-in-iceland-due-to-unpaid-airport-charges/

[Denti]

There might be a problem then. Before official insolvency proceedings are opened next month, air berlin cannot, by law, pay any open bill from before they filed for insolvency. And then Isavia will get the same deal as any other creditor, probably a cent per Euro or less.

[Chris2303]

There's about as much chance of that happening as the German Accident Investigators investigating fume events!

[gearlever]

Wait - they have to "investigate" the go around of AB at DUS.....:ugh:

[Less Hair]

So what happened to easy said to take over parts of AB? All quiet today.

[RAT 5]

Could ez have used AB's AOC in some way rather than an Austrian? Too late now I guess.

[MKY661]

Looks like Niki will be Integrated into Eurowings Europe:
https://www.reuters.com/article/air-berlin-lufthansa-eurowings/eurowings-to-withdraw-austrias-niki-brand-idUSL8N1MZ2G0

(I thought this would happen btw)

[Denti]

Could ez have used AB's AOC in some way rather than an Austrian? Too late now I guess.

Well, one of ABs AOC probably, there is still one in the works currently in which easy has reportedly a minority stake (Aeronautics GmbH). However, that is probably only needed to transfer slots, not for flight operations, they do set up their austrian at the moment.

Talks are ongoing, couldn't get much out of the easy guys today. Easy is holding a week long interview marathon in berlin for air berlin crews, both flightdeck and cabin, simulator events for the flightdeck crews are scheduled throughout november and probably into december depending on simulator availability, they try to get as many as possible simulator slots in SXF instead of gatwick. First start date with easy is scheduled for 8th of january.

The article says that the flyNiki brand will vanish, but the company will continue to operate on its own under the eurowings brand. How many AOCs do they have there by now? Germanwings, Eurowings (Germany), Eurowings Europe (Austria), LGW, Niki, SN Brussels, TUI, Sunexpress Germany. I do wonder how such a complicated setup is supposed to compete with real LCCs.

[Rescue3]

that's a lot of AOC's - but LH is german so no oversight or questions from either the german government but more specific the european union [MMC].
So if a german [or probably a french] airline whats to do whatever they want it seems to be they can.................... domination comes to mind

[Sea Eggs]

What's Easyjet doing? How come they are not closing the deal?

[atakacs]

I'm sure there is some hard bargaining / poker play in progress...

[The Flying Cokeman]

Deal has been signed today. 25 planes from Tegel from next year and up to 1000 crew members from Air Berlin will be recruited over the next months.

[pabely]

So what happens to airberlin technik GmbH, I'm sure EZY would like to get their hands on that as well?

[Non-Driver]

Its a consortium between Zeitfracht and Nayak, presumably the former taking the cargo ops and the latter taking the maintenance. Nayak do line maintenance in several European countries for several carriers including EZY.

[atakacs]

Deal has been signed today. 25 planes from Tegel from next year and up to 1000 crew members from Air Berlin will be recruited over the next months.
Are we to understand that Easyjet will also operate from Tegel (I guess it's unavoidable given current SXF capacity)?

[kcockayne]

This is very good news for Air Berlin’s crews. Congratulations on joining a top rate airline, after all the uncertainty of recent months. I hope that it will all work out well for you all.

[Denti]

Are we to understand that Easyjet will also operate from Tegel (I guess it's unavoidable given current SXF capacity)?

Yes, 20 to 25 aircraft will be based in TXL additionally to those already in SXF. Apparently the Terminal C, formerly mainly used by air berlin will be very orange soon.

[Smooth Airperator]

Nothing for Condor/Thomas Cook Group? What about the 330?

[Denti]

Not yet anyway, there should be some capacity left for Thomas Cook, but it has been very quiet about that.

The A330s are long gone, Lufthansa and Eurowings do fly some of the routes now, operated by Lufthansa for their routes and Sunexpress Germany and Brussels Airlines for the Eurowings routes.

[gearlever]

Open letter to AB pilots.....
Offener Brief der Eurowings-Europe-Belegschaft - Austrian Aviation Net (http://www.austrianaviation.net/detail/offener-brief-der-eurowings-europe-belegschaft/)

[lederhosen]

One very noticeable aspect is that Easyjet has a reasonable reputation as an employer (not perfect but dramatically better than Ryanair or Eurowings for anyone who has been in the business a while), which should be a learning point for the other would be employers. They can make promises but when they need pilots the potential employees will look at the long term track record rather than hot air.

[pabloc]

Apparently Easy were going to buy my old outfit,Monarch,but hey ho must have been asking to much!!....I digress,sorry back to Air Berlin.

[ExXB]

Will easy be able to spook up their Tegal operations quickly enough? The use it or lose it rule applies to all slots in the EU (and elsewhere) including the Air Berlin operated slots.

The northern Winter season began 29 Oct and ends 24 March, 146 days. A daily slot has to be 80% used or 117 out of the 146 or whomever risks losing them.

Controllers have a limited ability to look the other way, but the regulation is clear.

Of course the same applies to Monarch’s slots.

[Denti]

Apparently Lufty got a special dispensation for the slot rule, as it applies to them even more so. And they do not have the personnel to fly it. I would think that Easy is applying for that as well. Apparently regulatory authorities do not count the 80% rule until the final OK is given by the EU commission on the whole deal.

[ExXB]

Lufty can merge the Air Berlin slots with their own. By playing with them they can mitigate the issue. ie if they have an AB slot at 0900 and a LH slot at 0905 they can operate Monday using the AB slot, Tuesday using the LH slot: delaying the expiry. Slots are not tied to a particular route.

The EC wants to reduce the percentage to 70%, as does the Parliament. I’m not so certain they will simply give a blanket waiver. Lots of other airlines would want those slots.

[Hussar 54]

Apparently regulatory authorities do not count the 80% rule until the final OK is given by the EU commission on the whole deal.

The EC wants to reduce the percentage to 70%, as does the Parliament. I’m not so certain they will simply give a blanket waiver. Lots of other airlines would want those slots.



But let's not forget that this is LH we're discussing here....

[BRE]

Nach Air-Berlin-Aus: Lufthansa fliegt mit Jumbojets zwischen Berlin und Frankfurt (http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/handel-konsumgueter/nach-air-berlin-aus-lufthansa-fliegt-mit-jumbojets-zwischen-berlin-und-frankfurt/20525730.html)

Apparently, demand is high and they don't have the ex-AB planes yet, so are replacing most runs in November with long haul planes that happen to be returning from intercontinental flights.

[KelvinD]

As with many things Lufthansa, it is all a bit confusing. An A320, D-ABHK, formerly belonging to Niki Air and transferred to Air Berlin earlier this year, flew into LHR on 25th October as a Eurowings flight (EW9466). And it was still dressed in Niki livery.

[inbalance]

@KelvinD, yes you are right. Its not a secret that planes start to fly better as soon as you write the word Lufthansa on their belly.

[george234]

new information from the administrator of the bancrupt air berlin:

it looks like the creditors will get nothing payed out from the air berlin bancrupts assets, because it is nothing left by now
even the loan of the german state can obvisualy not be payed back

source in german:
www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article170246170/Alle-Glaeubiger-von-Air-Berlin-drohen-komplett-leer-auszugehen.html

[Denti]

German news sources report tonight that Easyjet signed a CLA with verdi about the integration of air berlin staff. Besides a somewhat simplified application procedure there will be „hold“ pay of up to €40.000 as they will need until september next year to train all of them. Training capacity seems to be rather stretched with close to 800 pilots and around 1700 cabin crew to be recruited in 2018.

[diamantaire]

the way the whole thing was handled stinks.
the biggest winner LH , the biggest loser the german people & the investors of AB

[gearlever]

What?
The German people? How that?
The investors?

Why to invest in something that doesn't sound right? AB was mismanaged from the beginning. My sympathies to these "investors" are just zero.

[gnarlberg]

German people pay a second time for their ticket DUS MIA or TXL JFK. obviously it will be the same aircraft, the same personnel, and the same route, they just bought the ticket a second time.

Investors?
There have been big companies interested in airberlin paying money, investors would at least get a bit or a small percentage. Somebody, he wears glasses, took away interesting routes and aircrafts from airberlin so other companys wouldn't pay as much as with etops 330 etc... the guy with glasses now bought big parts of airberlin for much less money

[oliver2002]

So what in your opinion should have been done instead?

[Kerosene Kraut]

Pilot's Union Vereinigung Cockpit vetoed some accelerated direct move for AB-Pilots to Eurowings Germany recently. So these pilots have to formally reapply from scratch for less paid work at Eurowings Europe (Austria) now. Thanks.

[Fokkerdriver]

I hope a lot of the crew will get the opportunity to join us in easyJet and at least work for decent money. As far as I am aware they will also join - not only getting a bridge pay of up to 40.000 euro - but also on a certain 'salery step' getting our loyalty bonus according to years served in Air Berlin.
I looked into joining EW when easyJet proposed to close The Hamburg base and was thoroughly shocked at the terms and conditions

[Denti]

Pilot's Union Vereinigung Cockpit vetoed some accelerated direct move for AB-Pilots to Eurowings Germany recently. So these pilots have to formally reapply from scratch for less paid work at Eurowings Europe (Austria) now. Thanks.

There is quite a bit more to that, and the Veto was actually done on request of the majority of AB pilots. Even for EWG there was no direct entry way, the application process was identical to the one used for EWEU. Not a full DLR Test for AB pilots, just an interview with someone from the company and two psychologists from the DLR.

I hope a lot of the crew will get the opportunity to join us in easyJet and at least work for decent money. As far as I am aware they will also join - not only getting a bridge pay of up to 40.000 euro - but also on a certain 'salery step' getting our loyalty bonus according to years served in Air Berlin.
I looked into joining EW when easyJet proposed to close The Hamburg base and was thoroughly shocked at the terms and conditions

Indeed, that seems to be true. The system isn't perfect and has some unusual quirks, but it is nice that Easyjet actually acknowledges the experience of those entering from AB. Quite a few are applying and most are really looking forward to join EZY.

[Less Hair]

Why should AB pilots prefer to work for EW Europe instead of EW Germany?

[gnarlberg]

because ab pilots could build up their own seniority list on EW Europe base germany... and then they wouldn't loose anything...
at EWE at german bases there is actually no Union/ VC supporting, but entering EWE, pilots could build up everything with vc/union and decide themselves. would be more interesting than going to EWG for same money and be the last one on the seniority list

at the moment :

EWD (not possible)
VC Union, MTV VTV and Seniority list existing
(AB Pilots entering would with TV Wachstum enter the seniority list at the end, the salary list according to 700hours/step but max step 11 -> upgrades from ab would be given to EWD colleagues and AB colleagues would remain as FO their whole life, and EWD FO´s would get a super boost fasttrack upgrade because AB Pilots enter the sen list at the end = unfair)

EWE
contracts according to EWD MTV/VTV
(AB pilots entering would work via german law, this means that they can form a union or get VC in there. Then with just AB pilots on german Bases they could take their old seniority list, no upgrades would be lost and they would have the same as at EWD)

[Less Hair]

So VC wants to infiltrate EWE at the cost of the pilots as this will be their future union battleground versus Lufthansa?
EWE in the future might have many non german pilots so VC should have an interest to force feed germans into that pipeline to keep their punch there. AB-Seniority could be accepted at EWG as well if VC wanted. They just use this to lure people into EWE. Not sure how much support VC can expect from those diverted crews.

[EcamSurprise]

It's unfair that EW own FOs will get command before people joining from another airline?
This isn't a normal take over but rather a bankrupt airline having some of its assets and people saved.

If you have an issue with time to command, you can join easyJet where you will just have to wait your 6 months / 2 sim requirement and you can have your name on the list for assessment like everyone else. No seniority other than time on the waiting list.

[gnarlberg]

It's unfair that EW own FOs will get command before people joining from another airline?
This isn't a normal take over but rather a bankrupt airline having some of its assets and people saved.



Its a too big picture for people not really involved. The fact is, aircraft will change with crews. Because Crews make the price. The AOC with the best option will get the staff, and because of that the A320´s will move to that AOC.
It hasn't been finally decided yet which aircraft is going where. Yes 13 to LGW blabla bull**** ! if they don't get the staff they don't get the AC.
So if all airberlin staff join EWD they just rise the volume. If upgrades are made procentually, nobody will loose anything.

[Denti]

Well, Easyjet seems to have a lot of applications at the moment and is indeed the preferred airline for many air berlin pilots. Not only those based in Berlin, many consider moving or even other bases in the easyjet network.

[gnarlberg]

thats true.

[a350pilots]

Why should EZY reward seniority for the time served in AB?
I do not get that.

[EcamSurprise]

Happy pilots are a lot more efficient that ones who feel hard done by?

[a350pilots]

Does this statement apply for easyJet pilots at certain bases, in which NO loyalty bonus is paid for service years? Seems quite unfair to me. In EZY most AB pilots will receive a substantially better package than their former employer anyway.

[EDDT]

There is no seniority list at EZY.

Let´s say there is a FO, who worked 8 years for Air Berlin. He was due to upgrade to captain next year.
Joining EZY he'll get his upgrade much quicker than with Eurowings Germany (where a seniority list has existed for decades).

That´s why those Air Berlin pilots prefer a new job with EZY . (and because the package for a lowcost airline is good)

[a350pilots]

This was not my point. A previous poster stated that the time in AB is rewarded as per bonus schemes. Although there is no seniority scheme with regards
to upgrading, there is a waiting list of all the bases with regards to command course allocation once you have been accepted to start the command process. People also can bid for a certain base, hence people can get a quicker command for unpopular bases. On the other hand for popular bases, one can wait for many years. For AB, it is a different story, as it has been acquired as per the deal to receive the slots in SXF, and the commitment to employ AB crew if they apply and pass the recruitment.

[Denti]

No slots for SXF, it is a new base in TXL. No UK License needed, german licenses are fine, ICAO level 4 is sufficient. As far as i know the retention pay of up to 40.000€ and loyalty pay based on pay grade (not seniority) with airberlin is meant as an incentive scheme to make sure enough airberlin pilots, especially those in the higher pay grades, apply. It is a CLA signed with the local union (verdi).

[Kerosene Kraut]

There is some last hour battle going on about who will get NIKI. The EU is said to have opposed LH taking it all and demanded that LH should give away slots. Now BA is said to be interested in NIKI. Decision by midnight tonight it seems.

[gnarlberg]

and Lufthansa was dumb enough to put LGW and Niki into one Request to Brüssels.
If Niki fails, they need to make a new request for LGW only.

getting hot down there in the alps now.

[gearlever]

It may become expensive for the unmentionable financial Ex-Investor. A multi Billion Euro case...

https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/air-berlin-im-news-ticker-fataler-brief-an-air-berlin-insolvenzverwalter-will-milliarden-von-etihad_id_7993120.html
Gutachten: Etihad haftet für Air Berlin - Austrian Aviation Net (http://www.austrianaviation.net/detail/gutachten-etihad-haftet-fuer-air-berlin/)

[gearlever]

Interesting international media didn't pick this up yet. It may affect the creditor real bad.... up to confiscation of xxx airline's planes.

[ExXB]

Is it possible to giver a summary of that report? Just the main points.

[gearlever]

Basically it's about a legal expert assesment about the creditor's (Airline xxx) financial liability involved with the AB bancruptcy until end of 2018!

[Sanderr]

They are investigating if the unmentionable is liable because of an email they sent promising financial support until at least the end of 2018. 4 months later they pulled out and AB went banktupt. The liquidator is now looking into presenting the unmentionable with the bill basically.

[andrasz]

Remind me, why exactly are we not allowed to speak out Voldemort's name when it it is explicitly mentioned in the linked aticle ?

[gearlever]

It MAY have to do with search engines...

[ExDubai]

But we are allowed to speak about "Hogans heroes", the Email was send by Hogan himself :}