Jetstar Lawsuit: 7 dismissed pilots suing over discrimination

[why panic]

How well does Jetstar Australia monitor and/or control the ethical behaviour of it's subsidiary companies? Judging by this long running lawsuit against Jetstar Japan, it would appear that out in the provinces you can get away with anything.

Three years ago, Jetstar recruited around 20 highly experienced A320 Captains for their Tokyo based fledgling airline. It is alleged they were all subjected to an appalling array of dirty tricks including, unnecessary medical tests, lost documents, constant translation errors, and ridiculous sim failures while the local low houred Japanese pilots sailed through. None of this group was ever allowed to fly. Some of this group passed all checks and medicals and still couldn't fly. The Australian managers just stood back and watched. The end result is a number of lawsuits presently going through the Japanese courts. There our five in one class action group and two individual cases. I believe the two individual cases have both received positive judgments.

There is a current effort to see if these cases can be brought before the Australian courts as Jetstar the parent must bear at least some responsibility, anyway, that is one for the lawyers.

If this thread is not deleted, I will keep readers informed of developments also if any members of the press want further information I can give them a book full.

[maggot]

Now everyone can fly!
Oh wait, not you whitey

[galdian]

Solid rumour a couple of lawsuits from Japanese Captains as well who encountered "difficulties" with the CP and his number 1 henchman.

Bearing in mind Qantas own 51% of J*J, from Jetstar HQ management down, they have enforced stuff all of Operational Control within J*J.

Strange way to use your controlling interest in an industry that can be very unforgiving if the sh*t ever hits the fan.

Cheers. :ok:

[PoppaJo]

There is a current effort to see if these cases can be brought before the Australian courts as Jetstar the parent must bear at least some responsibility, anyway, that is one for the lawyers.
Once upon a time a JQ A330 FO did something similar.

I wouldn't recommend it. Always ends in tears. Deal with it in Japan.

[titan uranus]

"How well does Jetstar Australia monitor and/or control the ethical behaviour"

Two words at least in that sentence are mutually exclusive

[PDR1]

"Australia" and "ethical"?

PDR

[galdian]

My guess would be "Jetstar" and "ethical" if anything.
Suppose "monitor" and "control" could be contenders.

Cheers.

[bazza stub]

Who owns Jetsar again???

[unobtanium]

Australia has a similar system too, its called IELTS. Do these 20 A320 pilots speak and write fluent Japanese?

[galdian]

Not part of the minimum requirements for ANY expat airline in Japan either from the airline or JCAB.

So your point is.....??

Cheers.:ok:

[titan uranus]

Australia has a similar system too, its called IELTS. Do these 20 A320 pilots speak and write fluent Japanese?

That's ridiculous

[TriStrPlt]

Having been one of the original ExPats to be hired I will submit that the treatment we received by the CP and his designated simulator hit man was some of the most egregious unprofessional behavior I have experienced in over 30 years in aviation.
The entire experience was reported to the placement service as the weeks/months long process of trying to force us out took place. To the point the placement service suspended any further supplying of candidates to JetStar Japan!
Delaying of contract commitment/Pay,ignoring hotel payment obligations, delays in required training to avoid mixing ExPat with Japanese in class, delay of simulator periods to allow Japanese students to take the periods all done to try to get us to quit.
Ultimately when the acts of discrimination were called to their attention in HR they never argued. JetStar simply offered a buyout to hide the matter.


The experience caused extensive loss of earnings due to the delays (months wasted with all the shenanigans) and flying currency lost which further delayed securing employment. This matter needs to be exposed and a spotlight shone on the CP and his underlings who deserve to be named publicly for their actions!

[Sunfish]

Moral of the story: Expect discrimination outside your home nation.

[unobtanium]

Yea and you Aussies back home you guys give expats ( 457s ) a warm welcome and lots of love too? Don't get upset when a country actually values locals over foreigners. Japanese are a proud people, and above all they love their country, they support their local industry and products, and thus the "go back to where you came from" treatment, Mr gaijin.

While we're here, why do you call yourselves expats, when back home foreigners are called things like 457s, cheap labour.... Isn't that discrimination?

[xyz]

Would you believe that J*J didn't pay me for me for the first seven months !!! Yes, it's true, and the same for all the others. They said they couldn't pay me till I got a Japanese bank account. To get a Japanese bank account you have to be a resident. You can only get residence by the company sponsoring you, which Jetstar would only do once you pass the JCAB check and had your ATPL issued. You were set up to fail the JCAB check by being trained for proceedure X but you were tested on proceedure Y. When you failed, you were fired with no pay !! Yes, there are many that spent months of hard work preparing for that check and walked away without a penny to show for it.

My sim partner and I were the first expats to pass the JCAB check only because after a month of sim training, the night before the check my sim partner was talking to two Japanese first officers in the hotel bar who told him what the check really entailed and he wrote it all down on the back of some bar napkins, and came round to my hotel room at 10:00 pm so we could prepare. Sounds ridiculous, but this is what happened. Welcome to the Jetstar alternate universe. The JCAB check has been the same test for eons and all the Japanese know exactly what it is.
Back to the payment issue. Several months in we did some research and found out that Japanese labour law says that an employee can only be paid salary directly into his bank account if he agrees to this, else he must be paid in cash. We sent the Australia manager a copy of the law, but nothing happened. He said the accounts department would only pay into a bank account and that was that.

This is all true, all documented, I have the emails, and it is only a small part of the total law suit and what went on.

It would be very nice if somebody from Jetstar finally apologized to us all. They know perfectly well they dropped us all into a viper's nest of their own creation and then pretended it wasn't happening.

Finally, in reply to unobtanium's post: You seem to be saying it's OK to treat us badly because we weren't Japanese - That's just wrong. We were invited (recruited) to go to Japan. We were told that we were wanted and needed. The local pilots had no A320 experience and we could help to build experience and add to safety. Also it was an Australian owned (not completely) and managed company where we could reasonably expect Australia standards of treatment and managerial conduct.

[-41]

Yea and you Aussies back home you guys give expats ( 457s ) a warm welcome and lots of love too? Don't get upset when a country actually values locals over foreigners. Japanese are a proud people, and above all they love their country, they support their local industry and products, and thus the "go back to where you came from" treatment, Mr gaijin.

While we're here, why do you call yourselves expats, when back home foreigners are called things like 457s, cheap labour.... Isn't that discrimination?

As an Aussie whom has walked the tightrope offshore I always obeyed the "it's their train set" dogma and it served me well.

On your assertion that we treat 457's poorly -

Most 457's are now holding Australian citizenship! Seems like a great deal to me. I'm yet to see any 457 holder treated in an unsatisfactory manner.

[dragon man]

Would you believe that J*J didn't pay me for me for the first seven months !!! Yes, it's true, and the same for all the others. They said they couldn't pay me till I got a Japanese bank account. To get a Japanese bank account you have to be a resident. You can only get residence by the company sponsoring you, which Jetstar would only do once you pass the JCAB check and had your ATPL issued. You were set up to fail the JCAB check by being trained for proceedure X but you were tested on proceedure Y. When you failed, you were fired with no pay !! Yes, there are many that spent months of hard work preparing for that check and walked away without a penny to show for it.

My sim partner and I were the first expats to pass the JCAB check only because after a month of sim training, the night before the check my sim partner was talking to two Japanese first officers in the hotel bar who told him what the check really entailed and he wrote it all down on the back of some bar napkins, and came round to my hotel room at 10:00 pm so we could prepare. Sounds ridiculous, but this is what happened. Welcome to the Jetstar alternate universe. The JCAB check has been the same test for eons and all the Japanese know exactly what it is.
Back to the payment issue. Several months in we did some research and found out that Japanese labour law says that an employee can only be paid salary directly into his bank account if he agrees to this, else he must be paid in cash. We sent the Australia manager a copy of the law, but nothing happened. He said the accounts department would only pay into a bank account and that was that.

This is all true, all documented, I have the emails, and it is only a small part of the total law suit and what went on.

It would be very nice if somebody from Jetstar finally apologized to us all. They know perfectly well they dropped us all into a viper's nest of their own creation and then pretended it wasn't happening.

Finally, in reply to unobtanium's post: You seem to be saying it's OK to treat us badly because we weren't Japanese - That's just wrong. We were invited (recruited) to go to Japan. We were told that we were wanted and needed. The local pilots had no A320 experience and we could help to build experience and add to safety. Also it was an Australian owned (not completely) and managed company where we could reasonably expect Australia standards of treatment and managerial conduct.

Mate, Jetstar everywhere will always be a cancer on aviation. Good luck to you, I hope you do them like a dinner.

[Ollie Onion]

So what's new, when they setup in New Zealand they totally ignored NZ Employment law and it has taken 8 years to get most of the kinks ironed out. Running other airlines from Melbourne is fine if you have some knowledge of the territory you are operating in. Unfortunately I have always found the 'managers' to be blind to other countries laws and the only answer you ever get it 'why would we give you that when we don't get that in Australia?'. Jetstar is absolutely tied to policy and procedure and if HR Policy is no payment in cash then their will be no payment in cash even if Japanese law says to do this in Leiu of a bank account. I mean Jesus Christ the Jetstar NZ pilots had to fight for 6 years including a trip to the Supreme Court to get Jetstar to compensate them for the rest and meal breaks allowed for under NZ Employment Law.

[Sunfish]

This entire thread simply confirms my earlier postings to the effect that Qantas is going to lose its entire investment in the Jetstar Asian model. The simple reason is that Asians won't let foreigners make a profit off other Asians in their home countries if they can help it. The sad tale of Japanese skulduggery is a perfect example. Now multiply this same behaviour in every facet of your Asian business and guess what happens.

Jetstar and Qantas should have known this because it has been common knowledge since at least 1935. Mr. Packer and Crown Casinos has recently also made this same discovery the hard way.

[TriStrPlt]

Yea and you Aussies back home you guys give expats ( 457s ) a warm welcome and lots of love too? Don't get upset when a country actually values locals over foreigners. Japanese are a proud people, and above all they love their country, they support their local industry and products, and thus the "go back to where you came from" treatment, Mr gaijin.

While we're here, why do you call yourselves expats, when back home foreigners are called things like 457s, cheap labour.... Isn't that discrimination?

Well it was Jetstar that came over looking for us to join their ranks because they couldn't find enough staff of their own.

Our culture treats invited guests with respect and all the graciousness that is appropriate.
If they didn't want us there why go to all the trouble of recruiting us and then treating us like the bastard stepchild?

[xyz]

Part of the recruitment process at Jetstar is having to pass the Qantas Psychometric Test. This is a pretty tricky, time pressured reasoning test. One day in the office, I asked one of the managers if the Japanese pilots had to do this test. He answered, "Yes, Australia insists on it". I replied, how on earth do they pass the verbal reasoning section as for the most part, their English is pretty woeful. (It is a whole other thread as to how most of them manage to get Level 4 English) He said, that they only have to do the test, the result is completely ignored and the test is usually given AFTER they are recruited.

I witnessed first hand, the giving out of exam answer sheets to the Japanese pilots prior to sitting exams. I obtained a copy of the RVSM test answer sheet and reported the matter in writing to management. This was then passed on to the CP to investigate. Talk about Dracula in charge of the blood-bank. This obviously puts into question the validity of the Japanese pilots qualifications to fly, certainly in the ground studies area.

Japanese pilots are allowed to choose their own medical examiner whereas the ex-pats cannot. In my case, my Class 1 renewal was disallowed by the CP. He told me I couldn't fly until I redid my medical, not as a renewal but a whole new initial with the doctor of his choice. It had to be at this particular clinic, that was so highly efficient at finding medical problems. The CP then told me that JCAB (Japanese CASA) would not accept my present medical. This made no sense. I had the issued Class 1 in my hand. With an interpreter in tow, I traveled into Tokyo to visit the JCAB head of the medical department, to ask why they would not accept my medical. He was amazed when he heard what the CP had told me, and assured me that of course I had a fully valid Class 1 medical. On the basis of this information from JCAB I refused to attend his clinic as I had a pretty good idea as to how that would play out.

Japanese pilots can fail in the simulator and be given second and third chances to get through, whereas to my knowledge non Japanese pilot were rarely offered more training or a second chance in the sim after a failure. I have the simulator programs which verify this. It is easy to track Japanese pilot "X" and his multiple failed tests followed by more training and yet another test.

This is all Racial Discrimination, pure and simple. In the UK, if a foreign (ethnic minority we might call them) pilot was subject to this two tier treatment there would be outrage directed at the employer in question, questions in the house even. Probably very similar reaction in Australia as it rightfully prides itself on being a fair and multicultural society.

[zanthrus]

Maybe they need a reminder?

Let's not venture there, shall we ? The thread can stand on its own merits. JT

[johnnyringo42]

Australia traditionally does not even give foreigners a chance to apply in their country so why complain at the Japs?
They're only giving them a taste of their own medicine.

[pilotchute]

Why would they Johnny? There are plenty of GA pilots in Oz. Japan on the other hand doesn't have a bucket full of people to choose from when they open an airline.

[halas]

Unobtabium. A 457 complaining.

halas

[Wizofoz]

Australia traditionally does not even give foreigners a chance to apply in their country so why complain at the Japs?
They're only giving them a taste of their own medicine.

Utter and complete rubbish. Australia has immigration controls like any country. But, once legally in the country, it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of race, and I have never seen anyone unfairly treated in the Aviation industry on that basis.

You are talking c0ck.

[morno]

Australia traditionally does not even give foreigners a chance to apply in their country so why complain at the Japs?
They're only giving them a taste of their own medicine.

I have flown with pilots of varied backgrounds from around the world in Australia, and in all areas of aviation, from GA through to airlines.

What you’re saying is complete and utter crap backed up by nothing.

[exfocx]

You must be kidding me about not treating 457 via holders poorly. Oh, 711, Dominoes and a host of high level "celebrity" restaurants etc have been taken to court for DELIBERATELY under paying their 457 workers. RE 711, after the court action some of the franchisors took cash off their reimbursed workers. The FW Ombudsman has said that 457 workers in Australia have, on their estimates, been underpaid to the tune of 1 billion.

[Icarus2001]

it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of race Just to be clear race and nationality are not the same thing.

[Bend alot]

You must be kidding me about not treating 457 via holders poorly. Oh, 711, Dominoes and a host of high level "celebrity" restaurants etc have been taken to court for DELIBERATELY under paying their 457 workers. RE 711, after the court action some of the franchisors took cash off their reimbursed workers. The FW Ombudsman has said that 457 workers in Australia have, on their estimates, been underpaid to the tune of 1 billion.
I think you will find most the 711 "underpaid" workers were not on 457 visas, Many were on Student Visas these visas have "work restrictions" that can make it difficult to get employment. This condition is what 711 was exploiting and that extended to underpayment for work done.

Domino's main offence was/is Sham Contracting and there was no discrimination on this - visa or no visa. Coles and Woolies trolley collectors played this game.

"Celebrity" restaurants also underpaid everyone they could.

The Ombudsman has a greater concern for migrant workers than 457 workers only. Recent checks by Fairwork on large numbers of companies in a number of states I have seen show under payment of wages is common. It was like 50-60% some amounts were small but some very large and considering the number of employed persons to 457 visa holders it is safe to state many workers are treated poorly in Australia citizens included. At my aviation work place, we have a number of workers on various visas and they are all treated just as poorly as me - an Australian citizen.

I often rent out a room to Work Holiday Visa holders. One Swedish lady "worked" on a dive boat in exchange for some form of dive training (I do not recall its title). This was for around 3 months and she was on the boat most of the time 5-6 days and nights a week, this was for no pay. I expected she was getting ripped off but she insisted that was the deal and she was more than happy. She was a lawyer but just loved diving the reef every day. The other 3 lady's all different places of employment, have all said "at least we get paid properly here". Previously they were all working in Sydney.

[Lead Balloon]

Also it was an Australian owned (not completely) and managed company where we could reasonably expect Australia standards of treatment and managerial conduct.What “standards” would they be?

[Slippery_Pete]

I hope you take them to the cleaners.

[FL11967]

Anybody been to Japan? It's mono culture. It's like being in another planet. Being culturally polite does not mean they like foreigners. Not surprised at all with what happened at Jetstar.

[Wizofoz]

Just to be clear race and nationality are not the same thing.

Got the clarity- not sure of the relevance??

[Lead Balloon]

Wizofoz said at post #26:[I]t is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of race.

Icarus said at post #29:Just to be clear race and nationality are not the same thing.

Wizofoz said at post #34:Got the clarity- not sure of the relevance??

Icarus will correct me if I’m wrong, but I take him to be saying that:

- “Australian” and “Japanese” are nationalities, not races, and

- a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race is not a law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of nationality.