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Mooncrest
10th Aug 2017, 13:36
Which UK airports and airfields (including MOD) were the popular spots for circuits and bumps, instrument training and general handling back in the days when simulators weren't as commonplace as they are now ? At Leeds Bradford I remember Air Anglia and Air UK kept the Friendships busy on training jollies when they weren't flying to Amsterdam and Edinburgh. I'm sure BIA dropped in once or twice to do circuits with the Herald. That's all I can personally remember.

IIRC British Airways went to Brize Norton with the Concordes. Where did they go with the Viscounts and Tridents ? Britannia, Dan-Air, Monarch and so on ? Any memories ?

Simtech
10th Aug 2017, 13:46
BA Concordes and DC-10s used RAE Bedford on occasion.

rog747
10th Aug 2017, 13:52
prestwick was a fav along with stansted EMA and Bournemouth

also shannon & NQY

Cambrian went to Seville for their 1-11 training

Mooncrest
10th Aug 2017, 13:55
Stansted and Prestwick both blessed with long runways (and not much traffic) so ideal then. Jet2 use Prestwick and Doncaster. Nowadays I think Stansted may be a little busy for training flights.

rog747
10th Aug 2017, 13:58
a sad aside is that British airtours bent a 707 training at PIK and it burnt out

BMA crashed a Viscount and a F27 on training at MAN and EMA respectively both with fatalities and serious injury

Level bust
10th Aug 2017, 14:19
Monarch landed a 1-11 at Stansted with the gear up. One of many similar occurances!

Stan Woolley
10th Aug 2017, 15:19
In 1989 Britannia sent the 12 of us on the course to Shannon for the best part of a week with 6 instructors, a pair of students each. Stayed at the Shannon Shamrock. We left and returned to Luton.

Other places I've been for circuit training are EMA, BFS with ABCarriers, Ostend and some airfield in Denmark that I can't recall (LR 60), don't even know if I logged it! For the 767 at Brits we did Zero Flight Time training. Experienced 737 pilots (1500 hrs?) could go straight from the sim on to passenger carrying aircraft. No problem at all.

GAZIN
10th Aug 2017, 15:25
I remember seeing the Monarch 1'11 just before it departed STN, back to Hurn I believe? With very temporary looking skins blind riveted to the belly.
Growing up next to STN in the 70's the Qantas 707's, Invicta Vanguards, TMAC CL44's and various Britannias pounding the circuit are fond memories.

GGR155
10th Aug 2017, 15:25
RAF transport squadrons regularly carried out ILS approach and overshoots at several UK civilian airfields. Recall Britannia and VC10's at MAN.

Mooncrest
10th Aug 2017, 16:03
Seville seems a long way to go for training flights. I assume there was a very good reason when it seems the rest of the Brits were using East Midlands, Stansted and Prestwick. Maybe these three were getting too crowded with other training flights.

What were Qantas 707s doing so far away from home ? Were the aircraft still actually owned by the airline at the time ?

The RAF 6 FTS from Finningley used to frequent Leeds Bradford during the 80s with the Jetstreams and Dominies; sometimes up to three a day. Nowadays it's the Cranwell B200s and not nearly as often. There is the occasional transport from Brize as well.

Simtech
10th Aug 2017, 16:07
For the 767 at Brits we did Zero Flight Time training. Experienced 737 pilots (1500 hrs?) could go straight from the sim on to passenger carrying aircraft. No problem at all.

As an ex-Brit sim engineer, thanks for the compliment!

RAF transport squadrons regularly carried out ILS approach and overshoots at several UK civilian airfields. Recall Britannia and VC10's at MAN.

Jetstreams, Dominies and C-130s were regular visitors to Cranfield. Plus, on one memorable occasion, a VC-10. These days it's just an occasional Chinook or Puma.

TCU
10th Aug 2017, 16:22
Growing up in the village of Stansted Mountfitchet, my school holidays, more often than not, resulted in me jumping on my Puch 5-speed and cycling the 4 miles to the airport and loitering (as one could do quite freely in those days) with my CAM, bins, log book, air radio and salmon paste sandwiches, in various perch spots in and around the old terminal, carparks and grass viewing area.

Save the odd exotic 707 or DC-8 arrival for ATEL, Thurstons G-ASMY going round and round, Transmeridian (TAC) dispatching exotica around the globe in their diverse fleet, the comings and goings of the CAFU 748's and Ford 1-11's, it was always nice to enjoy the trials and tribulations of budding BA pilots being let loose on the big jets including 1-11's, Tridents, Tristars, 707's, VC-10's and 747's. I am sure the BAC Type 102 also made the odd training visit

I seem to recall Air Europe and Orion using Stansted for training during their early days

Very, very happy days.

JW411
10th Aug 2017, 17:07
Initial training on the DC-10 with Laker was at Stansted. In 1980, DC and I got our commands and the Company was trying to find time at a training airfield. DC made a couple of phone calls to old friends at Brize (we were not long off the Belfast) and so it was that we did our LHS touch and gos etc there (G-BBSZ 23.06.80).

mustbeaboeing
10th Aug 2017, 18:07
Monarch in the late 1970's did use, amongst no doubt other places, Bedford for circuits on the Boeing 720 B's

DaveReidUK
10th Aug 2017, 18:09
RAF transport squadrons regularly carried out ILS approach and overshoots at several UK civilian airfields. Recall Britannia and VC10's at MAN.

Not just transport squadrons. Leuchars-based Lightnings could be seen on the ILS at Edinburgh from time to time.

Fareastdriver
10th Aug 2017, 18:17
Way back in the sixties BEA used to do Viscount conversions at Luqa, Malta.

Offchocks
11th Aug 2017, 03:20
Monarch did use Bedford and Stansted for their circuit training, but I was fortunate enough to join in the 78-79 winter which was quite severe, and so our training on the 1-11 had to be done down in Perpinan. What a lovely introduction to my new Airline, rubbish weather in the UK and absolutely perfect in Perpignan! :)

treadigraph
11th Aug 2017, 06:57
I recall a Dan-Air 727 pounding the circuit at Gatwick one afternoon in the late 70s. Mind you, I think Gatwick was realtively quiet in the afternoons back then!

pendrifter
11th Aug 2017, 08:49
Sims or not still happening at Newquay.

RAF A300Ms over North Cornwall fairly regularly.

Sunny day for a change yesterday and one over us several times in the afternoon heading to Newquay.

Individual sound for a big bird.

Alan Baker
11th Aug 2017, 09:19
In his 1971 autobiography, "When the Flag Drops" Jack Brabham recounts a journey to Cornwall in his newly bought Cessna. Unable to land in the field suggested by the person he was visiting, he flew to St. Mawgan (not knowing the radio frequencies) and tried to land there, only to find "there was a BOAC Boeing 707 landing and taking off and doing circuits and bumps". He reckoned there was a ninety degree crosswind and "the 707 was nearly shunted every time it hit the ground and almost scraped its wing on the tarmac". He eventually landed on the disused cross runway and had to wait while "two people came out and held the plane on the ground while I knocked the power off"!

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Aug 2017, 09:59
The BMA Viscount crash at MAN was a positioning flight (so no pax, but with cabin crew) being used as a training flight. Mis-handled EFATO resulted in the aeroplane rolling inverted. Both flight crew and one stewardess killed, the other stewardess (sitting near the back) survived.

BA used to do line training on Concorde at Shannon and Prestwick, among other places.

I remember back inthe late '80s a KLM A330 (I think) bashing the circuit at MAN one Saturday afternoon for several hours, passing downwind over Wilmslow every second circuit (the alternate circuits were RH off 24). Bit busy these days at MAN for that!

Fareastdriver
11th Aug 2017, 10:13
In the late nineties Cathy Pacific used to do their circuit bashing up the road in the Peoples Republic at Huangtian, now Shenzhen International.

Then Chinese civil aviation went into top gear and there was no room for any training.

Mooncrest
11th Aug 2017, 10:33
It seems like there were no limits for training locations back then. Luqa for BEA - must have been an Empire thing but I'm surprised the Viscounts had the range to get there. Again, it seems a long way to go. I seem to remember seeing a TV programme featuring a Dan-Air 727 training at Shannon. I suppose a relatively long runway and quiet airspace helped enormously. Do AirTanker not use their HQ of Brize for circuits, I wonder ?

Krakatoa
11th Aug 2017, 10:58
BA did some Viscount training at Dinard and 111 training at Gatow

The Member
11th Aug 2017, 13:10
Seville seems a long way to go for training flights. I assume there was a very good reason when it seems the rest of the Brits were using East Midlands, Stansted and Prestwick. Maybe these three were getting too crowded with other training flights

The reason for using Seville or similar sunnier climes was due to weather in UK at time of year when training was required to be carried out.

rogerg
11th Aug 2017, 16:30
We went to Toulouse and Montpellier with BIAs 1-11s due WX also Manston was a favourite with BCAL for some night work.

Liffy 1M
12th Aug 2017, 11:41
Shannon was actively marketed, particularly in the 1970s and 1980s, as a suitable airfield for flight training. As well as British operators, KLM and Air France were frequent users. When KLM and Lufthansa were preparing to introduce the 747-400 into service, I recall seeing both carriers' first example of the type in the circuit at the same time.

hatton
12th Aug 2017, 11:48
I think Orion used Seville in the 1980s for their 737 training. Good weather, I'd guess for touch and go visual circuits.

Mooncrest
12th Aug 2017, 13:39
I forgot that good weather would also have been significant, hence continental Europe in the winter when the fleets were less busy. Obvious really. Also explains the comparative lack of training jollies at LBA. Given Bristol's sometimes unfavourable weather, how did they do for training ? With Filton and Fairford up the road, probably not so well.

hatton
12th Aug 2017, 13:50
I don't think LBA would be an easy airport to do training at anyway.

Mooncrest
12th Aug 2017, 13:58
Agreed. Short runway and tricky weather. Never seemed to bother Air UK and Capital but, as they were both based, dealing with the conditions was a necessity. Jet2 prefer to go elsewhere even though LBA is fairly quiet in the morning after the first batch of departures.

rog747
13th Aug 2017, 08:36
yes Cambrian had to up sticks and move their whole new 1-11 training sortie to Seville due bad wx
when they got there guess what - the rain in Spain did fall on the plains
sadly their history website is down - they had the story on there

couple of years ago Thomson were using NQY
i was there one fine evening watching their new 787's doing circuits and bumps

WHBM
13th Aug 2017, 21:41
London City has the unique Steep Approach, initially (with Dash 7s) at 7.5 degrees, later reduced to 5.5. Training flights are generally not permitted there.

An equivalent glideslope and runway markings were set up at Gloucester/Staverton, and the LCY operators used that for training. Specially angled PAPIs were switched on when doing this.

canberra97
13th Aug 2017, 21:52
The BMA Viscount crash at MAN was a positioning flight (so no pax, but with cabin crew) being used as a training flight. Mis-handled EFATO resulted in the aeroplane rolling inverted. Both flight crew and one stewardess killed, the other stewardess (sitting near the back) survived.

BA used to do line training on Concorde at Shannon and Prestwick, among other places.

I remember back inthe late '80s a KLM A330 (I think) bashing the circuit at MAN one Saturday afternoon for several hours, passing downwind over Wilmslow every second circuit (the alternate circuits were RH off 24). Bit busy these days at MAN for that!

KLM didn't didn't have A330's in the 1980's in fact the aircraft hadn't even been built at that time, it was more than likely a KLM A310.

canberra97
13th Aug 2017, 21:55
It seems like there were no limits for training locations back then. Luqa for BEA - must have been an Empire thing but I'm surprised the Viscounts had the range to get there. Again, it seems a long way to go. I seem to remember seeing a TV programme featuring a Dan-Air 727 training at Shannon. I suppose a relatively long runway and quiet airspace helped enormously. Do AirTanker not use their HQ of Brize for circuits, I wonder ?

British European Airways initially used their Viscount fleet extensively on the their continental European network so no surprise in the fact that they were seen at Luqa Airport, Malta.

canberra97
13th Aug 2017, 21:59
Seville seems a long way to go for training flights. I assume there was a very good reason when it seems the rest of the Brits were using East Midlands, Stansted and Prestwick. Maybe these three were getting too crowded with other training flights.

What were Qantas 707s doing so far away from home ? Were the aircraft still actually owned by the airline at the time ?.

Prior to the Boeing 747 entering service with Qantas in 1972 the airlines Boeing 707 were used on the Kangaroo routes so no real surprise to have seen them doing circuits at Stansted at that time.

WHBM
13th Aug 2017, 22:39
British European Airways initially used their Viscount fleet extensively on the their continental European network so no surprise in the fact that they were seen at Luqa Airport, Malta.
BEA at the time actually provided the aircraft for The Malta Airlines (Air Malta predecessor), which they part owned, and had a couple of Viscounts outstationed there to operate local flights to Rome, Catania, Tripoli etc under local flight numbers, rotating back to London on the main service. Having an operating base, significant engineering support, etc there it was an obvious "good weather" training point for them. In fact, as the outstationed aircraft had some very leisurely rosters, I'm guessing they maybe used those instead of positioning a specific training aircraft out there.

Wunwing
13th Aug 2017, 22:53
Qantas had crews based in London for both 707 and 747.

Their aircraft had about 12 hours on the ground at LHR every day so I suspect it was cheaper to do the training in UK than fly them home to do it in Australia.

Wunwing

parabellum
14th Aug 2017, 00:03
When QANTAS did do some of their training in Australia they often used Avalon, south of Melbourne, as the circuit was often empty.


Laker and Air Europe both used Beauvais for training at times.

Flightwatch
14th Aug 2017, 01:03
I did my BKS base training on the Avro 748 at LBA! 3 sessions including a short night one. 3 months later same again on the Viscount, we had to fly 2 types in those days. The first was in December the second in March so must have been lucky with the weather - runway was quite short in those days though.

In BEA/BA it was MME for the S1-11 and a day trip to PIK for the 74C, less circuits required as time went by. The 732 was at Lille and the 744 was done on the sim! Later when a TRE on the 744, for those not qualified for ZFT we used Shannon and Chateauroux, Concorde was often seen at both the latter.

Strangely enough it was said that AF preferred SNN for the duty free and BA Chateauroux as the handlers would lay on a minibus to the local "Hypermarche" for wine and cheese etc!

rog747
14th Aug 2017, 05:28
British European Airways initially used their Viscount fleet extensively on the their continental European network so no surprise in the fact that they were seen at Luqa Airport, Malta.


the BEA Malta route was via Rome iirc so a Viscount was fine, although I think it possibly could make it non-stop
Our BMA viscounts with 73Y pax load could do LPL-PMI and BHX-Mahon so Malta from LHR should be doable ?

I recall early tridents also could not make it non-stop to Malta

WHBM
14th Aug 2017, 09:46
I recall early Tridents also could not make it non-stop to Malta
Bear in mind the Trident 1 followed the Comet down the Hatfield production line. BEA had bought quite a fleet of Comets, which could handle all the medium-range points, and I understand unwisely depreciated them in the accounts over 20 years. One would be fine for the Malta run, although being a monopoly route (like Gibraltar) Vanguards were stuck on the non-stops long after prop aircraft had passed their sell-by date on routes of such length.

It was an old BEA tradition that the Eastern Med was served by flights which stopped at both Rome and Athens.

Wiser councils soon prevailed and the Trident 2 did have the range for everything that the Comets did, but the depreciation issue and a huge potential writeoff was still with them. It was the principal driver behind setting up BEA Airtours with them, once they were beyond scheduled service usage (the noise in the rear cabin being a key issue, but that's apparently OK for a Night Malaga at revenue of 18 return per pax).

pulse1
14th Aug 2017, 11:07
Ah, the wonderful noise of 1-11 crew training in the early Spring at Bournemouth as the Courts of this world trained up their crews for the Summer season. There seemed to be hardly a time when one couldn't hear one somewhere, usually extremely loudly as they practiced single engine go arounds.

I visited the Tower one evening when there were two 1 -11's in the circuit and the telephone was going non stop as people called to complain about the noise. To be fair ATC did try to share the noise around and told every complainant how much each movement contributed towards the local rates.

This raucous noise was often accompanied by the more gentle but intrusive drone of the College of Air Training Barons as the future 1-11 pilots practiced their holds and ILS approaches.

The military still seem to use EGHH a lot as we see quite a few C130, Merlin and Chinooks doing ILS approaches., perhaps as the crews are building up experience towards their civilian licences;)

A friend of mine practiced an ILS in a Sea Vixen and made the mistake of doing a touch & go. It resulted in a no tea and biscuits interview when Yeovilton got the bill.

BobbyHowie
14th Aug 2017, 11:25
Worked at Prestwick in the 70's when BA Concordes and Tristars were doing circuits. Actually walked under a Concorde to get to the canteen! Hard to believe I actually got bored watching Concorde all the time. Those were the days!

Mooncrest
14th Aug 2017, 12:29
I'd like to see Leeds Bradford get used for training more. The runway length is no longer an issue and there are quieter periods during the day. No escaping the weather though.

Herod, if you're reading this, did Air UK use any other airports than Leeds Bradford for training ?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Aug 2017, 16:21
KLM didn't didn't have A330's in the 1980's in fact the aircraft hadn't even been built at that time, it was more than likely a KLM A310.

Hence the "I think" in my post. Yes, could well have been a 310.

Flap40
14th Aug 2017, 16:22
In my time at AirUK i did training filghts at Humberside, Norwich, Leeds & Guernsey (F27). Stansted (146) and Manston (F100).

scotbill
23rd Aug 2017, 13:34
Don't recall Malta being used for Viscount training in the 60s although they operated the London-Rome-Luqa as well as Luqa-Tripoli-Benghazi and Luqa- Catania for Malta airlines. My V800 conversion was done at a deserted Stanstead

However, from 1964 Malta certainly was used for the massive Vanguard training programme as the Hamble graduates came on stream. This was partly because of the excellent winter weather statisitcs and partly due to a very attractive deal on landing fees. As before mentioned the training aircraft could be seamlessly integrated into the passsenger schedule.

As increasing traffic and increasing landing fees began to rule out old favourites like Stanstead and Prestwick, then continental options such as Beauvais were used for 757s.

When Trident automatic go-arounds from 14 feet were being practised at Prestwick, ATC sometimes could not tell whether the wheels actually touched (with consequent higher charge!)

Helen49
23rd Aug 2017, 19:36
BKS, Northeast, British Air Services and BA viscounts all used LBA for training through the 1960s and 70s. Through those years there were a number of 'based' training captains who would use LBA and sometimes MME when an aircraft was available in between the schedules.

There was a limited amount of British Midland training with both the viscounts and DC9s.

As for the RAF, the Hastings based at Lindholme....when it was an airfield and area radar unit [!], were frequent visitors for practice half-mile SRAs....those were the fun days!

Mooncrest
24th Aug 2017, 21:25
The RAF have been in town today with one of their C-17s. A few low approach/go arounds then off somewhere else.

I have a clear memory of the distinctive and plaintive whine of four RR Darts at about FL50 flying round the LBA hold for what seemed hours. If it wasn't a Viscount awaiting a visibility/cloud base improvement (quite likely) then it was probably a BA (or predecessor) training jolly. At the controls ? Perhaps Malcolm Rolph, Peter Owen or Les Rackham.

jensdad
25th Aug 2017, 00:41
Back in the 80s, Newcastle was used by Dan-Air (737s, 727s, 748s, 1-11s, 146s...) and Air Europe (757s) among others.

Mooncrest
6th Sep 2017, 10:24
I've just remembered, one Saturday night in Autumn 1988 a Hot Air Viscount called at Leeds Bradford for some training. I seem to remember a lot of circuits but there was probably some instrument training thrown in too. No doubt giving ATC something to do on what would otherwise have been a quiet evening.

PIK3141
6th Sep 2017, 17:52
In the peak Prestwick had up to 10 based trainers at a time and up to 6 in the circuit at a time.eg 3 BEA 1-11s, 3 BEA Tridents, BOAC 707, BOAC VC10 and whatever. VC10 G-ARVM was a particular resident. Also 3 Court Line 1-11s at a time. BOAC/BA 747s and Concordes. Managed 4 Concordes on the ramp at once, each time one broke they sent another. Fury one night when an RAF Belfast joined the circuit. The Wednesday RAF Britannia, the 3pm RAF Lightning. Fast forward to today and home from home for RAF A330, C17s and Hercs. Ryanair each day this week and often, Jet 2, Monarch and others regular visitors inc the USAF. Something most days. Seems to be slot controlled now with a limit of 2 trainers slots at a time. Can lead to disappointment or delay if you arrive without having booked the slot, the runway being a busy runway with civil, military, light, helicopters et all. This past few months must be the busiest military transit airfield in the country, today 3 USAF, 3 RAF and 3 RCAF.

Mooncrest
6th Sep 2017, 20:44
[QUOTE=PIK3141;9884150]In the peak Prestwick had up to 10 based trainers at a time and up to 6 in the circuit at a time.eg 3 BEA 1-11s, 3 BEA Tridents, BOAC 707, BOAC VC10 and whatever. VC10 G-ARVM was a particular resident. Also 3 Court Line 1-11s at a time. BOAC/BA 747s and Concordes. Managed 4 Concordes on the ramp at once, each time one broke they sent another. Fury one night when an RAF Belfast joined the circuit. The Wednesday RAF Britannia, the 3pm RAF Lightning. Fast forward to today and home from home for RAF A330, C17s and Hercs. Ryanair each day this week and often, Jet 2, Monarch and others regular visitors inc the USAF. Something most days. Seems to be slot controlled now with a limit of 2 trainers slots at a time. Can lead to disappointment or delay if you arrive without having booked the slot, the runway being a busy runway with civil, military, light, helicopters et all. This past few months must be the busiest military transit airfield in the country, today 3 USAF, 3 RAF and 3 RCAF.[/QUOTE

Sounds like enormous fun back in the day. Incredible to think that there could be up to four Concordes on training duty at once. Nice and noisy, even without the likes of VC10s and 707s.

scorpion63
7th Sep 2017, 11:53
http://http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2947&stc=1&d=1504785123

BEA Vanguard flogging the circuit at RAF Luqa 1967/8

PIK3141
7th Sep 2017, 20:25
Mooncrest - The Concordes were not all flying at once, three were sitting broken !

Mooncrest
7th Sep 2017, 21:06
Mooncrest - The Concordes were not all flying at once, three were sitting broken !
That's not good. Who broke them ?

propaganda
8th Sep 2017, 22:15
Shannon on the B757 and Manston on the B737. I recall the RWY width was 60m.