Spice Jet. Pilot fails booze test 3rd time, grounded

[gearlever]

NEW DELHI: A senior commander of SpiceJet (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/spicejet-ltd/stocks/companyid-7876.cms) was stripped off his flying rights after failing the breath analyzer (BA) test for the third time. The commander used to fly Boeing (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Boeing) 737 till the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Directorate-General-Of-Civil-Aviation) (DGCA (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/DGCA)) cancelled his license on Friday. Pilot fails booze test 3rd time, grounded - Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/dgca-cancels-captains-licence-after-finding-him-tipsy-for-third-time/articleshow/59919803.cms)

Doesn't sound good....

[Herod]

Au Contraire. Sounds very good. Even in baseball, it's three strikes, you're out.

[pineridge]

Herod said--------

"Au Contraire. Sounds very good. Even in baseball, it's three strikes, you're out."

In baseball you get another innings. Will this miscreant?

[Herod]

From the article, it's three months, three years and life. If a three-year ban isn't going to do the trick, there is no sense in another innings. It seems also that he failed the test after a flight. It seems nothing is going to work in this case.

[scotneil]

I find it difficult to see why a pilot would fail a post-flight test after (presumably) passing the mandatory pre-flight test: surely drinking during flight (or during walk-round) must be noticed? Post-flight testing is really locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.......

[SMT Member]

Liberating items off the drink / tax-free cart perhaps?

[Radgirl]

A quick look on google is your friend and it appears that the test demands absolutely zero. So any contamination, mouthwash, a urinary tract infection etc etc etc is a fail. Scientific madness

[pa12 pilot]

You're claiming that a UTI will produce ethanol in the blood? Not buying it.

[413X3]

Addicts come up with so many justifications for why they are not suffering a disease.

[Piltdown Man]

No. Radgirl is correct. Having a zero margin in things to do with aviation is rarely a good idea. So the real question is how much did he fail by?

[peekay4]

No. This has been discussed before. The answer is no, those "contaminations" will not cause a fail:

But breath analysis machines are different. These are calibrated, lab-grade gas spectrometers tuned to detect ethanol. They also have specialized algorithms (called "slope detectors") to reject mouth alcohol and other causes of false-positives (MTBE additives, paint thinners, etc.). They are operated by specialized technicians following strict legal procedures.

Since these machines are detecting ethanol specifically, they are extremely accurate. False positives are rare. Due to their accuracy these machines are typically acceptable in a court of law in lieu of a blood test.

A disease which could produce ethanol in detectable levels is also extremely rare (known as auto-brewery syndrome). Most of us may produce a trace amount of ethanol in our guts, yet in the entire history of humankind there are less than 100 recorded cases of auto-brewery syndrome. If you are unlucky enough to suffer from this disease, you may lose your flight medical anyway because you are essentially drunk all the time.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587461-crews-above-flight-level.html#post9593924

[Piltdown Man]

pk4 - Which machine was used?

[Offchocks]

I am surprised that he was not banned from flying after the second failure.

[peekay4]

As I understand it, each airline in India must ensure availability of test equipment for their own pilots, at every airport they regularly operate from. I don't know what SpiceJet uses, it could be any one of many models as breath analyzers are almost a commodity these days.

[Radgirl]

If you really believe 'gas' spectrometers with full time laboratory technicians are available in India to test every pilot at the start and end of every flight then please proceed. I have used these machines for research - they are a nightmare in the field.

I stand by my comments. Auto brewery syndrome is indeed rare but there are other commoner causes of ethanol production.

If all this is totally foolproof how is it that the UK police have so many limitations and the UK courts have let people off on these bases? I am just glad I dont fly in India.

[funfly]

So any contamination, mouthwash, a urinary tract infection etc etc etc is a fail. Scientific madness
Poor chap just swilled his mouth out with mouthwash! - Closing ranks again?

[Denti]

Even a glass of orange or apple juice for breakfast can cause a false positive in common portable breathalyzer tests. In germany those tests would not hold in front of a court, a blood test would be needed to confirm that. Which is why a positive breathalyzer tests leads directly to a court appointed MD to take a blood test, a court order is needed for that as a blood test is legally malicious injury, something a policeman may not do under normal circumstances.

[Radgirl]

Silly comment funfly. If you engaged brain before posting you will see I am medical!!! I note from your age that automatic testing before every flight would not effect you as a commercial pilot. Can you imagine the unfairness and stress your colleagues in India must go through with the risk of having their license pulled every time they fly? I find it incredible any sensible person would support this politically inspired nonsense.

[masalama]

Flying here in India which I believe is the only country (correct me if I'm wrong) to have mandatory BA every flight originating in India or post flight BA if originating outside India can be stressful.
I don't drink ( a teetotaller) and I've had one BA positive( alcosensor 4) from having just gargled with mouthwash before an early morning flight . Luckily , as per rule , a second BA test is mandated after 15 minutes which was 0.0 , I made sure my mouth was well rinsed and had some water before the second blow but I was sweating with the thought of a 3 month grounding. Another friend had a positive as he'd just doused himself with perfume 5 mins before the test and then we laughed later about him doing the second test in his undershirt vest which came negative but wasn't funny at the time.
Another forgot to do the post flight BA as he had to rush to connect ACM flight and he had a cool 3 month grounding to reflect on that mishap. I'm all for going after people coming drunk to work but this is just plain silly. Now with the proposed 1 year notice period proposed by DGCA, stress among pilots flying here is bound to increase .

[peekay4]

If you really believe 'gas' spectrometers with full time laboratory technicians are available in India to test every pilot at the start and end of every flight then please proceed. I have used these machines for research - they are a nightmare in the field.
You don't need spectrophotometers. Any professional fuel cell device would be more than sufficient, assuming they are operated correctly (calibrated and used according to procedures). They're like $500 retail, it's not like airlines can't afford them.

I believe in India all the pre-flight alcohol testing must be performed by a doctor or a paramedic.

[Longtimer]

I find it difficult to see why a pilot would fail a post-flight test after (presumably) passing the mandatory pre-flight test: surely drinking during flight (or during walk-round) must be noticed? Post-flight testing is really locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.......

'
when you drink it does take some time for the alcohol to register in your blood sream.

[peekay4]

Indian rules say pilots must be checked post-flight when they can't checked pre-flight, e.g., ops from a foreign base, after a diversion to a remote airfield, etc.

[aterpster]

'
when you drink it does take some time for the alcohol to register in your blood sream.
Varies mostly with the contents of the stomach in people with normal metabolism.

[skridlov]

I'm just a naive SLF but it amazes me that any pilot is ever allowed control of a passenger aircraft after a second violation of this kind. Given that the established recovery rate for alcoholics is no better than 5% simple probability should be applied.

[Radgirl]

Who mentioned alcoholics? We are talking about a zero level which may be violated for all sorts of behavioural, medical and scientific reasons in pilots who havent had a drop of alcohol.

One has to ask all the chest beaters on this thread if they would agree to the same screening in the Western World. If so please lobby your MP or Senator

Me, I'm off to India as it sounds like there are thousands of cushy jobs for healthcare professionals grounding pilots for the wrong aftershave

[PA28161]

With respect, you're talking rubbish
The analytical test protocols differentiate between alcohol in the bloodstream and any other topical preparation. Unless, perhaps, one is in the habit of drinking copious quantities of Listerine

A quick look on google is your friend and it appears that the test demands absolutely zero. So any contamination, mouthwash, a urinary tract infection etc etc etc is a fail. Scientific madness

[Radgirl]

With respect, this is repetition

This has been discussed on this thread. Contamination was only one of the errors discussed. There are many reasons for trace readings. And there seems to be considerable questions over the devices, their maintenance and use.

Anyhow, this is all academic. Indian politicians are never going to change this but hopefully even our scientifically illiterate masters are not daft enough to implement a similar system here

[TowerDog]

Doing a charter flight in India I refused the breath test for alcohol.
(Haj charter for Air India)
The AI doctor and ops people got all huffy and puffy and threatened to cancel the flight.
Told them No Problem, pls arrange transport back to the hotel.
As we had 500 pax who also would need accommodations, AI reluctantly backed off and cleared us to go without no stinking alcohol testing.

[peekay4]

You're lucky, not employed directly by an Indian airline. New policy for expats who fail or refuse a single test is revocation of their license validation and a lifetime ban from working in India.

[TowerDog]

Wow, guess I was lucky, but my gig in India was a few years ago.
Didn't thrust their equipment, a false positive could have been a real possibility.

[scifi]

Mathematically the number zero does not exist, but for practical purposes 0 +or- a bit, is taken as being zero.
In the UK any reading below 8 ug is taken as being zero, being 4 times less than the Drink-Driving limit. If India is requiring 0 to an infinite number of decimal places, they are soooo wrong.
.

[peekay4]

If India is requiring 0 to an infinite number of decimal places, they are soooo wrong.

They don't. The device certification standard has a specified accuracy tolerance level. A reading of 0.00 really means "no or an insignificant level of alcohol present", i.e., below the tolerance for the minimum detection level, which is typically 1 mg/100ml BAC.