Weather Radar in Cavok Condition?

[pineteam]

Hello guys,

I Would like to have your opinion about it. I'm honestly shocked that some arlines request the cockpit crew to keep the weather radar ON for every flight regardless of the weather condition?! Why would you keep a device suffering from wear and tear when you have clear skies and thus obviously not required?
I'm flying on the A320 and Airbus clearly mentions to use it "as required". Luckily the airline I work for follows Airbus SOP in that aspect. I'm not an engineer, but I believe having a microwave running under your balls all the times can't be great for the crew and definetely not for the radar mechanism itself.
Thank you.

[gearlever]

I'm honestly shocked that some arlines request the cockpit crew to keep the weather radar ON for every flight regardless of the weather condition?!

Really? Haven't heard about that. Some are argueing wx-radar is reducing risk of bird strike.

[schooner]

Leaving it turned on means you don't forget to turn it on when you may actually need it. Belt and braces.

[Jonnyknoxville]

what schooner said for me as well

[Chesty Morgan]

Ergo, leaving it on means you might forget to turn it off when you should.

Quite how you'd forget to turn it on if you need it is beyond me.

[schooner]

Checklist will catch that after landing/shutdown. People have flown through weather before because they haven't had the radar on.

[Stan Woolley]

what schooner said for me as well

Me too. :ok:

But don't forget to turn the tilt to some useful setting!

[STBYRUD]

The radars I am familiar with are transmitting continuously anyway when airborne to provide PWS capability, what you select on your ND and WXR panel will only affect what kind of scan it will perform (in between PWS scans)

[wiedehopf]

the radar beam is pointed forwards ... that is where the energy goes.
and there is plenty aluminium between you and that radar emitter. the microwaves bounce right off aluminium.

sometime i think people have no idea there is a difference between gamma rays and microwaves. oh well.

[STBYRUD]

The people who turn it off to protect themselves from radiation also shouldnt be performing walkarounds next to powered up aircraft (radio altimeters, surprisingly high powered!:})

[testpanel]

Talking about wear and tear

Also I'm honestly shocked that some pilots try to make a nice landing (landing loooong) and once on the ground trying to make that intersection by hitting the brakes so hard, my ribs still hurt from the seatbelt....:ugh:

[pineteam]

Leaving it turned on means you don't forget to turn it on when you may actually need it. Belt and braces.

Yes it's safer. It's also safer to fly with wings and engines anti ice ON in case we forget in icing conditions...lol. I wanted to say why not keeping also the gears down but since Air India... Haha. I mean it's just common sense. When we check the weather at dispatch and the satellite image shows clear sky, using the radar is just as useless as flying with the dome light on bright during day times like some guys love to do.




The people who turn it off to protect themselves from radiation also shouldnt be performing walkarounds next to powered up aircraft (radio altimeters, surprisingly high powered!:})

Honestly, I'm not flying with radar off to protect myself but mainly to save on maintenance cost. I can still remember my former boss from a small charter company to repeatedly tell me to minimize the use of radar to preserve it.
I do not walk under the 4 RA antennas btw.:p


the radar beam is pointed forwards ... that is where the energy goes.
and there is plenty aluminium between you and that radar emitter. the microwaves bounce right off aluminium.

sometime i think people have no idea there is a difference between gamma rays and microwaves. oh well.

Well most people like me here are just pilots so yeah I have no clue. I will have a look. Haha


Talking about

Also some pilots try to make a nice landing (landing loooong) and once on the ground trying to make that intersection by hitting the brakes so hard, my ribs still hurt from the seatbelt....:ugh:

Could not agree more... I hate it also. :}

[Centaurus]

37 years ago I wrote to Bendix in USA requesting their advice about turning the radar switch to off rather than standby during cruise flight when weather ahead was clear as far as you could see. Our radar on the 737-200 was monochrome type. The chief pilot insisted it was better for the radar to always be left on. He said that electronics don't like being switched off and on. Bendix replied that switching the radar off was perfectly OK and increased the life of the unit.

Lots of pilots are full of personal opinions not always based on facts. Management pilots are not immune to this. I have learned that an aeronautical manufacturer's advice is generally more reliable on technical matters

[FlyingStone]

1. Wear and tear. As long as you don't need to pay the mx bills personally, I wouldn't care. It's like brakes/reverse policies. You do what they want - as long as it's safe. I don't see any safety issues with WXR on from takeoff to landing...

2. With all the radiation that you are exposed to with high altitude flying, weather radar would be the least of my concern. Think RA sensors, other aircraft radars, military radars, sitting on top of 100+ computers in avionics bay, etc.

3. Plenty of people have flown into CBs with weather radar OFF or picture not clearly visible. It's well recognized risk from Airbus. On the topic, why is it possible to almost completely dim WXR returns on ND, and barely able to dim TERR display?

[Check Airman]

Nice clear day, or night time with a full moon- I probably have it off. As someone alluded to earlier, do you turn on the dome light at midday?

[Check Airman]

On the topic, why is it possible to almost completely dim WXR returns on ND, and barely able to dim TERR display?

I imagine you may survive an unexpected weather encounter, but you won't survive an unexpected terrain encounter ;)

In the planes I've flown with LCDs, I've never had a problem with dimming the terrain as much as I please. Do you use CRTs?

I've often wondered about why the weather display can be turned so low myself. Doesn't seem to make sense. On airplanes with the new radar, you actually get a message on the ND when weather is detected, prompting you to increase the brightness if required.

[Meikleour]

When I was working in south east asia the company went through a phase whereby the wx radar was to be switched off unless it was needed - to save cost. With the high relative humidity on the ground condensation would collect on the gimbals which would then freeze at altitude - thus rendering the unit u/s! The law of unintended consequences at play again!

[Centaurus]

As someone alluded to earlier, do you turn on the dome light at midday?
As useless as some operators telling passengers the cabin lights will be dimmed for take off and landing even though it is broad daylight. :ugh:

[wiedehopf]

while all electromagnetic radiation, including radiowave, microwave, infrared, visible light, UV, x-rays, gamma-rays, has common properties, the massively differing energies make it behave very differently.

and that means the energy per photon or minimal unit of radiation.
microwaves and x-rays for example have at least a factor of 1 million between them.

one main effect is that below UV and x-rays said radiation will mostly just heat up body tissue and while that can be bad mostly the heatup is low and you just don't care.

x-rays and above can knock stuff around at a molecular level leading to cancer at very low total power outputs. so they f you up long before they cook you.

and then x-rays and above also don't get stopped by metals as stuff below does.

aluminium foil will happily stop anything below x-rays.


so while mobile phones and microwaves might have negative influences on living tissue apart from heating it up a little bit we have not seen a lot of evidence of that.

x-rays and atomic bombs: ionizing radiation
pretty much everything else: non ionizing radiation
of that everything else ultraviolet is the highest energy still being able to destroy your skin without ionizing it ;P

weather radar even walking through the beam should not be a problem. it needs time to cook you :)
and that's what it would literally do if you stood there long enough. but don't count on feeling it either because we are used to heat coming from the outside so we feel heat only on the skin.
but microwaves cook you evenly more or less.

[LimaFoxTango]

schooner - Checklist will catch that after landing/shutdown. People have flown through weather before because they haven't had the radar on.

Checklist will catch that after landing/shutdown. People have flown through weather before because they weren't looking where they were going.

There, I fixed it for ya. I don't see why in broad daylight clear skies you'd have the radar on. If you hit something then, you clearly weren't looking in front . Moonless night is another story.

[ACMS]

Just turn it on and LEAVE it on for the flight.

[Metro man]

This report is worth having a read of relating to turbulence.

Accident: China Eastern A332 near Tyumen on Jun 18th 2017, severe turbulence causes loss of 4000 feet and injures 26 (http://avherald.com/h?article=4aa7de17&opt=0)

Common trap on the A320 is forgetting to check the radar display is turned on at the cockpit set up stage. Some people insist on turning it to full dim when leaving the aircraft.

[Eric Janson]

Leaving the weather radar on will also identify you as a civilian aircraft to any military radar systems.

Useful in large areas of the World.

[Capt Fathom]

A recent event over the Ukraine may debunk that theory. :(

[Bergerie1]

Despite what happened over the Ukraine, it is still a good idea to leave the radar on as it does help to the military to identify the aircraft as being a civil one.

[Uplinker]

Modern airborne weather radars fitted to modern passenger aircraft have powers of no more than about 200W, and many are much lower than that.

So; imagine a 200W lightbulb* fitted into a reflector dish and pointing away from you, scanning left and right.

How much light are you going to see when sitting behind the reflector? (none).

Now imagine that reflector fitted on the other side of a substantial aluminium bulkhead.

How much light are you going to see from the bulb now? (less than none).

Radar is the same sort of "radiation" as light - it won't go through the metal - and at these powers, there will be no adverse effect on the human bodies seated in the cockpit.

Any reflections from targets will be 1000's of times lower power than the transmitted output. The radio frequency emissions from your mobile phone into your body will be much much greater than anything received from behind your weather radar and the forward bulkhead.



In a previous life I worked with microwave transmitters - the same sort of thing as a radar. One day I went up a tower to derig a transmitter but forgot to turn it off first. I was standing in front of the dish, making sure I was securely tied to the tower, and for about a minute the transmitter was firing right into my b*lls before I realised my mistake. I have since "helped" produce a very healthy lad who is now 6' 2" and at University.

*in other words, like two 100W domestic lightbulbs

[wiggy]

I think it safe to say that even 30 plus years ago those with suitable kit and suitable training could do far far more than simply look at a signal and decide if it was coming from a generic civvie weather radar or not. Sadly as we know how that info is then used is down to who is involved.

Despite the above IMHO it is still worth having having the weather radar radiating in/over some parts of the world...

[CaptainMongo]

If your company SOP is to turn it in and leave it on to reduce maintenance on the WX Radar - fine. If your company says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it, and you aren't insulted then you are in the wrong profession.

[Goldenrivett]

CaptainMongo
If your company says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it, and you aren't insulted then you are in the wrong profession.

on 8 July 2017 you said,
"SOP at our company is NAV lights left on all the time 7-24, 365.
Airbus NAV lights stay in position two, position one if position two inoperative."
pprune.org/tech-log/596779 (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/596779-a320-navigation-lights-how-do-you-use-them-do-you-alternate-between-sys-1-sys-2-a.html)

Since NAV lights are NOT required to be on between sunrise and sunset, are you insulted by your company SOP or in the wrong profession?

[FlyingStone]

If your company says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it, and you aren't insulted then you are in the wrong profession.

I also feel deeply insulted because our SOPs have landing gear item on the landing checklist.

[harpf]

I'm an EE having working a significant part of my career in radar systems integration and test.. and a tight wad as well. On my personal aircraft I always keep the radar on. If your concerned about RF then ditch your cell phone, it right in your face so to speak. In the case of the WXR energy is very well focused and goes where the antenna is pointed vs up your tail pipe. Also the listen time to TX on time of a WXR is typical a 1000 to one. Transmit for a few of micro seconds at a few hundred watts, then listen for a few milliseconds, resulting in an average RF power of a few watts.

On the other side of the equation, two items that take a heavy toll on modern electronics are moisture and thermal cycling. Keeping the WXR on keeps it dry, and turning it on when cold soaked at altitude will cause the solder joints to crack much more so than when turned on leaving the gate. Remember the old tube TV's and even the news ones. Who's TV never dies? ans. the guy that leaves it on 24x7. When does it die, not when it's on, but when it is turned. How many times does an aircraft taxi to the gate OK, and break when fired up from cold for another flight. :ugh:

[BluSdUp]

With regards to the Malaysian being shot down by Russians over Ukraine.

Do we know if they had the radar on, after all they were looking to shoot down a mil transport.
I imagine the FDR on a 777 picks up if radar on or off?

[CaptainMongo]

CaptainMongo


on 8 July 2017 you said,
"SOP at our company is NAV lights left on all the time 7-24, 365.
Airbus NAV lights stay in position two, position one if position two inoperative."
pprune.org/tech-log/596779 (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/596779-a320-navigation-lights-how-do-you-use-them-do-you-alternate-between-sys-1-sys-2-a.html)

Since NAV lights are NOT required to be on between sunrise and sunset, are you insulted by your company SOP or in the wrong profession?

The NAV lights on our fleet stay on all the time for safety. It is a company policy, one of many we exercise not required by FAR.

I'll ask a more direct question and stop beating around the bush.

Why would a Captain and a Co-pilot forget to turn on the weather radar when required? What would they be doing in the cockpit that they would forget such a basic safety of flight item? I haven't read a good answer to that in this thread yet.

[RAT 5]

It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP. Clue? Look out the window. Can you see where you are going? No. Check TAT ref: EAI, 2nd turn on Wx Radar. The problem with too many SOP's is it dilutes airmanship because guys stop thinking. There is no SOP to increase thrust if you need to climb. It is just what you need to do. Let's get back to airman and not trained monkeys.

[Brakes...beer]

Goldenrivett, brilliant!

CaptainMongo, try swapping 'Nav lights' for 'Wx radar' and vice versa in your previous post. What difference does it make? Live and let live.

[Avenger]

Why would you keep a device suffering from wear and tear when you have clear skies and thus obviously not required? low level windshear can occur in clear skies depending on the topography. As commented, some "States" require weather radar to be on when transiting their airspace. There is no evidence that the WX Radar is harmful to crew as it points forward, although the constant grind of the gimble can be annoying. Guess we just stick to SOPs and let other higher powers decide!

[Check Airman]

There is no evidence that the WX Radar is harmful to crew as it points forward, although the constant grind of the gimble can be annoying.

Your cockpit is quiet enough for you go hear your wxr scanning?! Which plane do you fly?! I need to convince my airline to get some of those😀

[Centaurus]

It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP. Clue? Look out the window. Can you see where you are going? No. Check TAT ref: EAI, 2nd turn on Wx Radar. The problem with too many SOP's is it dilutes airmanship because guys stop thinking. There is no SOP to increase thrust if you need to climb. It is just what you need to do. Let's get back to airman and not trained monkeys. ]

Never a truer word spoken. This comment should be sent out to every operator and displayed in every crew room.

To illustrate an example. A SE Asian operator had an SOP where in the 737 the PM was required to call "Stable" when the PF had opened the thrust levers to approximately 40%N1 for stabilisation reasons prior to actuating TOGA. In a simulator session, the PM was told over the private intercom system not to call "Stable."

The PF release the brakes and started to trundle down the runway at 40% N1. The airspeed had reached about 45 knots and we had used up 1500 feet of runway when the PF looked across the cockpit to the PM and said accusingly "You forgot to call Stable."

Cue to freeze the simulator and say WTF

[harpf]

A military fire control / search radar is total oblivious to other radar system. On the other hand the US military and US homeland security have systems that can identify both opposition and civil radar equipment by make and model. Within limitation if your WXR beam is pointed up at the cloud tops, insufficient signal will be available on the ground to id the system. On the other hand all US military air defense system have IFF (identify fried or foe) The can read your Mode C/A and S data. But - an enemy aircraft could transmit a Mode C 1200 code. and get shot down as could any one else not sending encrypted IFF 'friend' code.

[galaxy flyer]

There used to be a long-standing NOTAM put out by the FAA from the DoD requiring civil traffic in the Gulf to operate their weather radar to assist in identification. The FAA Internationsl Information website no longer has it posted or I can't find it. The old IFIM is gone sadly.

[Goldenrivett]

Originally Posted by CaptainMongo
The NAV lights on our fleet stay on all the time for safety. It is a company policy, one of many we exercise not required by FAR.

Hi CaptainMongo,
If you really believe you leave your NAV lights on for safety during daylight, then please point me towards an accident / incident report which was caused by the crew not displaying NAV lights between sunrise and sunset.

Here are a couple of incidents caused by "inappropriate use of weather radar".
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Accident_and_Serious_Incident_Reports:_WX

"A343, en-route, mid North Atlantic Ocean, 2011 (On 22 July 2011 an Air France A340-300 en route over the North Atlantic at FL350 in night IMC encountered moderate turbulence following "inappropriate use of the weather radar" which led to an overspeed annunciation followed by the aircraft abruptly pitching up and gaining over 3000 feet in less than a minute before control was regained and it was returned to the cleared level. There Investigation concluded that "the incident was due to inadequate monitoring of the flight parameters, which led to the failure to notice AP disengagement and the level bust, following a reflex action on the controls.”)

A346, en route, eastern Indian Ocean, 2013 (On 3 February 2013, an Airbus A340 crew in the cruise in equatorial latitudes at FL350 in IMC failed to use their weather radar properly and entered an area of ice crystal icing outside the prevailing icing envelope. A short period of unreliable airspeed indications on displays dependent on the left side pitot probes followed with a brief excursion above FL350 and reversion to Alternate Law. Excessive vibration on the left engine then began and a diversion was made. The engine remained in use and was subsequently found undamaged with the fault attributed to ice/water ingress due to seal failure.)"

[Bergerie1]

galaxy flyer,
I remember that NOTAM well. And despite keeping the radar and transponder on, the USS Vincennes nearly shot down a BA 747 aircraft shortly before it shot down the Iran Air Airbus. Unfortunately, mistakes do happen.

[ManaAdaSystem]

I have flown for an airline with WX RDR ON policy and now for an airline with AS REQUIRED policy.
We had far fewer RDR problems in the ON airline. Just my experience.
I don't know how many times I have flown around WX my Effoh was blissfully unaware of. Embedded CB's hiding in a high level cloud cover. Or at night.
While some military systems can't see my radar, others can. Not just in conflict areas, but military air exercises are frequent in Europe. More so recently. It adds another layer of safety as I see it.
Radiation? The modern systems are low power systems, not like the Flash Gordon style RDR antennas of some 30+ years ago which had side lobes that would give radiation in a much wider pattern. So unless you are flying a classic DC 9 or a similar old aircraft, radiation is not an issue.
For me the benefits outweigh the disadvantages which seems to be limited to forgetting to switch it off. Or annoying the other guy.
I can live with that.

[CaptainMongo]

Goldenrivett,

You cite two occurrences where the crew had the weather radar on but used it either "inappropriately or "failed to use the weather radar properly." How would have an "always on" SOP prevented those two occurrences? Those instances sound to me like two crews who didn't know how to operate their weather radar or didn't know their jobs well enough or didn't do good enough preflight preparation or were to busy finishing a crossword puzzle or maybe they needed a trip back to their training center.

Is that cold? Yeah. It has come to the point in commercial aviation where the pilots are either the ones who will save the passengers, crew and aircraft or the ones who will kill the passengers, crew and wreck the aircraft. The earth is littered with dead people and wrecked aircraft because pilots failed their passengers and crew. It is an ugly but inescapable truth.

Look at the past 10 years of accidents - far to many of them point that ugly finger at us as the cause. Pilots who don't know their aircraft, pilots who don't know their SOP, pilots who think they are so damn smart and experienced that SOP doesn't apply to them - pilots who made smoking holes with perfectly fine aircraft and bring along a bunch of guests who preferred not to be invited.

Which brings me back to my original point. If pilots can't be depended upon to turn on and use their WX radar effectively when operating in the vicinity of convective activity, what is their purpose in the cockpit?

[PENKO]

Just do what you're paid to do.
I'm paid to leave the radar on, my colleague expects the radar to be on, so it stays on.

Worst thing that can happen now is an FO reading this thread and switching the radar off whilst I still expect it to be on.

[oicur12.again]

"It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP."

We work in an industry where a two pilot crew recently flew an entire sector with the wheels down and did not notice. They couldnt figure out why it would not climb, why it would not accelerate, why it was so noisy and yet pressed on regardless. And then almost ran out of fuel.

There is almost ZERO basic airmanship in many parts of the world and these SOP's pander to the lowest common denominator.

[PENKO]

Working for a WX radar on company, the largest A320 operator in the world I'm led to believe, I have NEVER encountered or heard of a WX-radar being unserviceable.

Sometimes these topics seem more of a showcase for ones superior airmanship than anything else. In the Air India thread quite a few people could not believe that some companies do not have an After Takeoff Checklist. And yet here these same people can't believe that our SOP demands the radar on all the time. Guys....take a break.

[pineteam]

It does worry me that basic airmanship needs to be written in an SOP. Clue? Look out the window. Can you see where you are going? No. Check TAT ref: EAI, 2nd turn on Wx Radar. The problem with too many SOP's is it dilutes airmanship because guys stop thinking. There is no SOP to increase thrust if you need to climb. It is just what you need to do. Let's get back to airman and not trained monkeys.

Could not agree more... More and more pilots just follow blindly SOP imposed by the company but do not try to really understand why are we doing that, does it really make sense? Etc...It's not because it's in the SOP, it's the best way to go. Of course we are paid to follow the SOP and we shall do it. But let's be honest sometimes we have to admit some airlines established some very questionable rules. The most recent example I can think of is: To have a cabin crew in the cockpit for safer operation when one pilot goes to the toilet. Like a cabin could prevent a pilot to crash an aircraft.:ugh: This was one the dumbest aviation rule of 2016, hands down.


low level windshear can occur in clear skies depending on the topography. As commented, some "States" require weather radar to be on when transiting their airspace. There is no evidence that the WX Radar is harmful to crew as it points forward, although the constant grind of the gimble can be annoying. Guess we just stick to SOPs and let other higher powers decide!

Hi Avenger, the predictive windshear function on Airbus A 320 Family is always ON regardless of the radar system status if equipped but active only
when flying below 2300 feet AGL. And the reactive windshear is independent of the radar system so flying with radar off or on will make no difference. I guess Airbus thought about everything. :p



Working for a WX radar on company, the largest A320 operator in the world I'm led to believe, I have NEVER encountered or heard of a WX-radar being unserviceable.


Hi Penko,

Funny you mentioned that cause actually it happened on a flight where I was passenger. it was an A330 and after 1H10 of flight time, the captain made an announcement due to technical problem, we had to turn back. I managed to talk to the captain on the ground and he told me it was due to radar mechanism failure. And yes, this airline required the crew to operate the radar all the time... So I was wondering maybe if they were not abusing of it, these kind of problem might happen less often?
What about a proper ground training to the crew on how to use the weather radar? Instead of having useless class like Dangerous Goods every 2 years no pilots care about. So many folks just blindly turn the Radar on and leave it on auto mode the entire flight and I'm pretty sure they don't really know how to use on manual mode when required.

[back to Boeing]

I've worked for 3 airlines. 2 (both longhaul) had SOP that it was always on. 1 (shorthaul) had no requirement. Working longhaul I want the weather radar on all the time on at least one screen. Pure and simply because when you're regularly flying through the night either over Africa or over the Atlantic you're dog dead tired and no matter how good you think you are you will make mistakes through fatigue.

Trap the error before it becomes one. It doesn't cost you anything it has no ill effects on you and I've found having it on all the time has forced me to learn how to use it properly. It's incredible the number of times I have found embedded CB's where absolutely nothing was forecast.

[pineteam]

I imagine you may survive an unexpected weather encounter, but you won't survive an unexpected terrain encounter ;)

In the planes I've flown with LCDs, I've never had a problem with dimming the terrain as much as I please. Do you use CRTs?

I've often wondered about why the weather display can be turned so low myself. Doesn't seem to make sense. On airplanes with the new radar, you actually get a message on the ND when weather is detected, prompting you to increase the brightness if required.

Hello Airman,

What aircraft are you flying? Cause after reading your post I tried like 4/5 times on max dim with weather ahead ( the Fo has it on max bright) and it never told me to increase the brightness.:confused: It was on a less than 2 years old A321
( MSN 6300+).


Trap the error before it becomes one. It doesn't cost you anything it has no ill effects on you and I've found having it on all the time has forced me to learn how to use it properly. It's incredible the number of times I have found embedded CB's where absolutely nothing was forecast.

Hi. At night I can undestand for long haul flights. But during day time with no embedded CBs, unless you are using charts to cover the windscreen, I would trust more my eyes for weather deviation than the radar system.

[PENKO]

Of course you would trust your eyes. Until you fly into overcast skies and forget to switch the radar on. Your eyes won't help you then. Leaving the radar on the whole flight is just a precaution that some operators employ. What's the fuss?

[Stan Woolley]

Hi. At night I can undestand for long haul flights. But during day time with no embedded CBs, unless you are using charts to cover the windscreen, I would trust more my eyes for weather deviation than the radar system.

I'm with back to Boeing.

There are surely all manner of operators of aircraft that peruse this forum, some ideas I might endorse and those I might strongly object to. It wouldn't be nearly as interesting if we were all the same.

I think what's important with radar, is situational awareness, after all, stumbling into a CB by accident is something hopefully ever done only once. If it could possibly happen, it will happen. Are we all fallible? Yes. Despite what the aces here might think. So for me, leaving the radar on, but paying attention to how it's set up, is the way to go.

Covering your windscreen with charts? That was a no no, in my cockpit.

[pineteam]

Of course you would trust your eyes. Until you fly into overcast skies and forget to switch the radar on. Your eyes won't help you then. Leaving the radar on the whole flight is just a precaution that some operators employ. What's the fuss?


I was talking about good weather conditions in day time. Unless both of us are sleeping, I don't see how it's possible to fly into a CB. obviously if it looks doggy, I won't take a chance and put the radar ON. Maybe it depends where you fly, I operate now in Asia, and 90% of the time the Cbs are well isolated and you must be drunk or sleeping to miss it.. When I was flying in Africa, no aircraft were equipped with radar; Never remembered being a serious problem during day time. Let's be honest, most of the time it's just water and worst case you are going to shake a bit: Just open your eyes and doge around the cells. Simple as it sounds. Weather radar is a bonus, it's not even required by Mel if no thundestorm activity en route even at night! Make me wounder if some airlines will cancel a day time flight in perfect condition just because the radar is inop? LOL
My fuss is the people lack of common sense and that "oversafe attitude" Maybe I'm too much company orientated but just because it's there does not mean you have to use it. Someone is paying for that, your employer. If the maintenance cost was negligible; Then all operators and Airbus will recommend to keep the radar ON all the time. But I guess they assume there is still some room for pilot to think before acting blindly.
By that logic, like I mention before, we should fly with anti ice all the time, all lights on, land with autobrake medium, maximum fuel: That's also safer.

[RAT 5]

Your cockpit is quiet enough for you go hear your wxr scanning?! Which plane do you fly?

There was a time when it was said that the noisiest thing in a Rolls Royce was the clock. RR engines not fitted to A320 so it must be the Wx radar.

In a simulator session, the PM was told over the private intercom system not to call "Stable."
The PF release the brakes and started to trundle down the runway at 40% N1. The airspeed had reached about 45 knots and we had used up 1500 feet of runway when the PF looked across the cockpit to the PM and said accusingly "You forgot to call Stable."
Cue to freeze the simulator and say WTF

Out of curiosity, was PF expected to glance across, see that PM was awake, say WTF wake up, and advance to TOGA; or assume incapacitation and RTO?

[RAT 5]

On the other side of the equation, two items that take a heavy toll on modern electronics are moisture and thermal cycling. Keeping the WXR on keeps it dry, and turning it on when cold soaked at altitude will cause the solder joints to crack much more so than when turned on leaving the gate. Remember the old tube TV's and even the news ones. Who's TV never dies? ans. the guy that leaves it on 24x7. When does it die, not when it's on, but when it is turned. How many times does an aircraft taxi to the gate OK, and break when fired up from cold for another flight.

That philosophy was told to me after the introduction of B757/767 to our fleet; especially in winter. It cost a bit in GPU time though. I guess the tree huggers would frown upon a GPU being on for 6 hours every evening; so why not an electronics battery cart? Why have a diesel noisy GPU chugging away. Where's TESLA when you need them? That's an idea. Think of the worldwide need for battery carts instead of GPU's. All this guff about shutting down APU's and plugging in GPU's. OK many stands have plug-in mains voltage, but not remote parking or non-stand airports of which there are many.

If your company SOP says turn it on and leave it on because you may forget (or be to stupid) to turn it on when you need it,

Wouldn't it be nice, just once, to be treated as intelligent and told why a strange sounding SOP is introduced? Understanding why we do something not only educates and informs, it helps one to remember and appreciate why it is being done; rather than just complaining that some dimwit has decreed it.

[CallmeJB]

After takeoff I pull all three Radio Altimeter circuit breakers. I figure there's no sense in putting the wear and tear on those systems when they're not needed. And, hey, it's not like I won't see the ground coming!

I push them back in prior to TOD, just basic airmanship and all that.

;)

[Check Airman]

Hello Airman,

What aircraft are you flying? Cause after reading your post I tried like 4/5 times on max dim with weather ahead ( the Fo has it on max bright) and it never told me to increase the brightness.:confused: It was on a less than 2 years old A321
( MSN 6300+).

We ordered some new airplanes that have a completely different wx radar. (Not sure if I'd consider it next gen)

The control panel is completely different. You'd know if you had it installed. It works quite well, and one of the nice features is that ND warning.

I couldn't find a picture handy, but this youtube video has a shot of a one of the model variants at 37:48

https://youtu.be/ZcNPacgEEXY

[vilas]

Even in CAVOK one has to periodically adjust the tilt to get the ground echo on top of the screen to ensure it is working adjusted properly. It's something like the ND you don't leave it in one mode and range for rest of the flight but adjust to get some awareness from it. About a pilot forgetting to turn something on has reached a new dimension after the landing gear incident. So I will not bet anything on it.

[pineteam]

We ordered some new airplanes that have a completely different wx radar. (Not sure if I'd consider it next gen)

The control panel is completely different. You'd know if you had it installed. It works quite well, and one of the nice features is that ND warning.

I couldn't find a picture handy, but this youtube video has a shot of a one of the model variants at 37:48

https://youtu.be/ZcNPacgEEXY


Hello Airman,

Thank you. the video is very informative.:ok: Our newer aircraft only use the Rockwell Collins WXR-2100. I quite like it except the auto mode has its limitation. I use to be lazy and trusted it 100% and keep the gain in calibrated but then a couple of times we will be climbing or cruising peacefully at night and the radar will show nothing or just some green patches and as soon as you get closer, all of the sudden some green patches appear or worst case the previous green patches become amber not even 20 miles from the cell and we ended up in moderate turbulence... I guess that's why they recommend to use the manual mode in a regular basis.. I won't do that mistake twice... hopefully.:O

Edit: Ok, thanks to Airman link, I found a very helpful video about the Rockwell Collins Radar and around 45min it explains why all of the sudden some green or orange patches appear. if you guys are interested, here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2NruqjQi4

[Check Airman]

Your cockpit is quiet enough for you go hear your wxr scanning?! Which plane do you fly?

There was a time when it was said that the noisiest thing in a Rolls Royce was the clock. RR engines not fitted to A320 so it must be the Wx radar.

Isn't the IAE engine mostly built by RR?

[Nemrytter]

Slightly late to this party but I've been involved in quite a few incident investigations where aircraft have encountered CBs but didn't have the WXR on (or had the display dimmed) as "it looked clear".:ugh:

Just because it looks clear out front is no guarantee that there's no buildups at lower altitude. It seems often forgotten that these buildups can still cause a some nasty problems for you.

-edit- I want to add, this post isn't directed at anyone else. Just a general comment after reading the thread.

[Bergerie1]

CallmeJB,

I am glad I will never have to fly with you. See Nemrytter's post 63......and learn!

[Stan Woolley]

I think CallmeJB's post's in jest, a dig at those who don't believe in wearing things out.

If not then God help us! :)

[Bergerie1]

Stan,

I hope you are right. If so many apologies to CallmeJB.

[CallmeJB]

This American was trying to channel some British sarcasm... I guess it didn't quite go over.

[Bergerie1]

You are forgiven of course. I'm so sorry if I offended you!

[zoigberg]

Pineteam (and Check Airman) thanks for the link to the Rockwell Collins Multiscan presentation. So far I'm not really a fan of the thing but this gave some good insight. As regards the original question I get the wx radar on on the ground since the flight I had some years ago where we got to the Balkans only to find the radar not working when we turned it on. It's the sort of problem I would rather find out about on the ground before the flight, not at 38000 when presented with a load of active storms
No company SOP regards usage.

[Rick777]

For those worried about radiation, I used to fly with a captain who was a fanatic. He carried a radiation detector when he flew. He found that on pur 757s the worst offender was the window heat controllers located above the center of each forward window so he turned the heats off above 10,000 ft since there was no restriction against flying without them there. He turned them back on below 10 because there was a restriction. Takes all kinds I guess. I always just followed the book. Simpler that way.

[RAT 5]

If he'd carried a solar radiation detector at FL390 he might have made his hair stand on end. Ignorance can be bliss, sometimes.

[pineteam]

Concerning the danger of radiation, in the video I posted before, the guy from Rockwell Collins clearly states the radiation are negligible. With max gain and max range, if you stay in front of the radar antenna, it's still safer than standing in front of your home microwave.

You can find it at 1H01M30s --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2NruqjQi4

[Uplinker]

Driving in your car with the headlights on gives you more exposure to electromagnetic energy than flying with the weather radar on, (in both cases, virtually nil).

Same sort of emissions*, same sort of power, same physical set-up with the transmitters mounted in front of reflectors facing away from you, and which are mounted in front of a metal bulkhead between them and you.

No danger.

*Visible light and microwaves are both electromagnetic waves on the electromagnetic spectrum. Visible light has a higher frequency and energy than microwaves. Microwaves as used by radars are not energetic enough to cause ionisation, (potential tissue damage). Only when you get up to X-rays (in your hospital, and way above visible light), are the energies enough to disrupt molecular bonds.

[Goldenrivett]

Hi pineteam,
Like a cabin could prevent a pilot to crash an aircraft. This was one the dumbest aviation rule of 2016, hands down.

SOPs are often written to prevent the re-occurrence of an avoidable accident/ incident and over time the original reason is forgotten and the SOP appears "dumb" to some.
This weather radar discussion appears "dumb" to those aces who never make mistakes, and so believe they will always remember to turn the system on before they need it. They usually end up mitigating the threat rather than avoiding it in the first place.

[pineteam]

Hi Goldenrivett,

Concerning the weather radar, I think there is a misunderstanding. In my company , we take off with radar off when we know for sure the weather is sky clear. In dispatch we check the live satellite image ,the Taf etc... We know from experience especially in winter, we won't find any CBs. Of course now in summer time, no question asked radar is ON. And we only turn it off when we can see the horizon well clear. We only do short/medium flight, so all good!:) And I do mistakes all the time, not ashamed of it, not hiding it, always happy to learn from it and from you guys. :)

[Escape Path]

@pineteam

That link to that video was really helpful. It's not the type of radar our A320s are fitted (if he's talking about the same radar, as the video Airman posted) so it would be interesting to know if that same information is applicable to our equipment.

It is rather odd as I've found the same behaviour on multiscan radars but not so with the old manual ones. I've cursed the bloody things way too many times for showing/not showing radar returns rather inconsistently.

Regarding the use of radar...for me this is all moot. It's so basic it beggars belief if such question is even worth of asking. If you like it off, fine, but don't forget to turn it on if you need it. If you like it on, fine too, even if it's all clear skies out there. Does it make a difference?

I keep it on, just because even in clear skies, I know it's there, working (or not, to be reported at arrival). I've always heard radars like to be kept on for increased life... In any case, it's company policy to keep it on and to be honest, there are far more important things to be taking care off than if I should keep the thing off or on. If it was that important it would be written somewhere

[clark y]

Pineteam,
With reference to your first post, good to see you're showing some " mechanical sympathy".
With respect to the mechanics of it, personally had 1 physically fail on an A320. Clear morning, not a cloud too be seen. On climb, aircraft started a small rhythmic vibration. Had no idea. After a while got the idea it was about the same frequency as the radar sweep. Pointed the radar down and saw it was stalling in the 1 o'clock position. On the ground the aircraft gave us a fault. For memory something to do with an IRS (needed for radar stabilisation). Engineer lifted the bonnet ( like in airplane the movie) and confirmed it was busted. That's the only physical failure in 20 years on radar equipped aircraft. Glad I had this on clear morning rather than flying around the equator at night.
As for the electronics failure, I've seen it happen at times. Usually switch to other computer or a reset will fix it. As others have said, the on/off cycles can probably kill electronics as much as just leaving it on.
As for radiation sources, can I add the overhead panel on Airbusses that big red sticker that says Caution-high voltage. Does that add any hurtful radiation?

Give it time, the radars of the future probably won't have any moving parts. Like the phased array ones you now see on warships.

Personally I prefer to leave the radar on.
Just like the Nav lights.......

[Uplinker]

..........As for radiation sources, can I add the overhead panel on Airbusses that big red sticker that says Caution-high voltage. Does that add any hurtful radiation?

No.
.

[pineteam]

Pineteam,
With reference to your first post, good to see you're showing some " mechanical sympathy".


Hello,

Thank you for your input. I just tried to fly the most efficient way and treat the aircraft with good care like it was my own. I'm actually very happy to have created that discussion as thanks to everyone inputs, I have learned a lot. :)

[Lou Scannon]

I retired years ago, but once we had radar I always had it on mapping (If nothing more imminent) over long ocean crossings.

Other pilots asked why did I have it on if there was nothing to see and I had to recount the RAF aircraft that didn't because they were routed well south over the pond to the USA and there would be nothing to see.

Unfortunately they weren't "well south" when they thought they were and in response to a confused navigator practicing grivation...turned it on. They immediately saw what they thought was a large ice mass...which it was, but unfortunately the one that covers Greenland which should have been many hundreds of miles to the North. They just made Goose Bay!

So if you are not using it for anything else, why not have it on mapping so that where you should have nothing on track...you can see that you really don't.

[Centaurus]

That's the only physical failure in 20 years on radar equipped aircraft. Glad I had this on clear morning rather than flying around the equator at night.

I had a nasty one circa 1980 while flying a 737-200 Taipei to Guam at night. A Typhoon (the weather, not the aeroplane) was forecast to be on our direct track or thereabouts. The radar was a Bendix monochrome display with 180 miles max range. We switched the scale from 180 to 80 quite frequently and played with the tilt hoping to pick up the tall CB usually surrounding the eye of the typhoon. We even looked through the windscreen although we were in cloud.
The radar showed lots of what we interpreted as sea returns expected with large waves. No evidence of bad weather ahead after 1.5 hours in cruise in calm air in cloud. Where was the forecast typhoon? Without warning we hit savage turbulence and lots of lightning. The flashes illuminated Cb's in all directions. Clearly the radar had failed some time after we had left Taipei and we were over the West Pacific area.

There was no warning of the failure, and because the screen appeared "alive" with tiny echoes we took to be big waves, we trusted it. We turned 90 degrees from the planned track and picking our way between CB tops using lightning flashes, we were able to clear the immediate area and resume track to Guam.

[misd-agin]

Mechanic upon arrival - "can you turn off the EGPWS? I'm going to be working below the airplane and don't want to get radiated."

[neila83]

What I haven't seen from those bragging about their superior airmanship enabling them to turn it off, is what the actual benefit of doing so is? There doesn't seem to be any.

In which case having it on seems to be wise. If nothing else you might see stuff long before the naked eye would,and get s better picture of the full structure which would.enable much better/more efficient avoidance strategy.

[pineteam]

Hello Guys,

After watching that interesting video about the Rockwell Collins radar presented by Mister Steve Paramore (link below) I sent him an Email asking his opinion about his recommendation on how to use the radar and he was kind enough to reply. For those interested, here's his reply.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_2NruqjQi4


"Hi Gregory,

Sorry for my slow reply. I recently retired from Rockwell Collins and now work contract for them. So I am not regularly checking my email. In the past, with very old weather radars, it was common practice to turn off the radar whenever there was no significant weather because you quickly wore out the magnetron. Today's digital radars no longer use magnetrons and have a very long life. So we recommend having the radar on from push back to taxi in. With that said, over time there will be wear and tear on the gears and bearings in the pedestal. And although Rockwell Collins has a very low failure rate for these components, they are a mechanical system and are subject to failure. So some airlines elect to keep the radar off during operations to reduce the mechanical wear and tear.

And I think this was mentioned in the Cathay video, but the radar is a very minuscule radiation hazard... less than standing in front of a micorwave oven. So it is safe to turn it on during taxi.

Sincerely,

Steve"