Court Martial Results

[paul m]

Good evening, The courts marshall results has stopped being reported on the .gov web site. Does anyone know why or is there a new way to report the results.

[Pontius Navigator]

If you spell it correctly so thee shall see. August results are yet to be compiled

[paul m]

good point, my error (sorry_). The link I have below stopped end of 2016
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/court-martial-results-from-the-military-court-centres
Is there another link Pontius Navigator, that you could post please.

[Pontius Navigator]

The court lists are to end July
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/military-court-centres-court-listings and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/court-martial-results-from-the-military-court-centres.

If you look at the latter you will see the results are not reported on a regular cycle.

[paul m]

thank you, I had noted the latter web site had not been update in nearly 9 months..

[Hangarshuffle]

paul m I think you are the Judge Advocate General just checking up on things and I claim my £5.
What have you done anyway?

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting reading that list. One that caught my eye was a female civilian at Bulford who was court martialled and convicted on a charge of using threatening behaviour. I have heard of civilians attached to the military overseas being court martialled but was surprised that this also happens in the UK.

As an aside it's a pity that whoever compiled that list appears to think there is a military rank of "sergent" :*

[Alber Ratman]

A lot of Batteries as well.. I'll get my coat..

[November4]

Whoever sanctioned these results to be published did not sanitise them very well.

Charge 2: Eight months detention and œ2000 compensation to Victim's name given at œ200 a month. First payment on first paydate after release. Charge 1: no separate penalty

My emphasis

1 x Unlawful Counding


Bit surprised by this one..

Charge 1 - Offering to supply a controlled drug (Class A), Guilty ....90 days detention suspended for 6 months.

I assume this person will be on the CDT list for the next few visits

[Wander00]

Well, we have got rid of the superfluous "L" in "Marshal", so presumably the court usher by another name, but the legal entity is a "Court Martial", so a way to go yet. Pedant switch "off"!

[Senior Pilot]

Well, we have got rid of the superfluous "L" in "Marshal", so presumably the court usher by another name, but the legal entity is a "Court Martial", so a way to go yet. Pedant switch "off"!

Having edited the original thread title, what is there is now correct. Those thinking otherwise please follow the links in posts 3 & 4 where the title used by HMG is Court Martial Results (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/court-martial-results-from-the-military-court-centres).

[taxydual]

Shouldn't it be Courts Martial?

[Senior Pilot]

Shouldn't it be Courts Martial?

Did you read the link?

[taxydual]

Did you read the link?

Yes.

Pedant caption lit.

HMG (or some typist in the Civil Service) have missed off an 'S'.

Pedant caption out.

[megan]

Use of the "S" optional? The US uses the "S", is it a common language separated by an ocean thing again?

Court Martial Act 2007 No 101 (as at 01 March 2017), Public Act Contents ? New Zealand Legislation (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2007/0101/latest/DLM1001890.html?search=ts_act_court+martial_resel&p=1&sr=1)

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/dfda1982188/s114.html

[Senior Pilot]

Senior Pilot are you an Air Martial then with Courts Marshal?

See links at 3/4.

A court martial, listing of results from several centres or courts, hence courts martial as we are talking of listings from several centres.

PN, BA, BSc, qss

Once again, read the link that YOU put up which refers to listings from several centres: Court Martial Results from the military court centres (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/court-martial-results-from-the-military-court-centres)

Guidance
Court martial results from the military court centres
From:Ministry of Defence
Published:17 December 2012
Last updated: 8 December 2016, see all updates
Provided by the Military Court Service.

Documents

Court martial results from the military court centres: October to November 2016
View online Download CSV 11.4KB

Court martial results from the military court centres: July to September 2016
View online Download CSV 9.04KB

etc etc

Hence the correct title for this thread.

[Pontius Navigator]

SP, sorry but humour obviously failed. You are word blind.

It is MARTIAL and not marshal

[Senior Pilot]

SP, sorry but humour obviously failed. You are word blind.

It is MARTIAL and not marshal

Yes: too early and I was missing the point entirely! Too fixed on the 'court/courts' diatribe :hmm:

Appointment with the optician next week :\

[Pontius Navigator]

Thank you. Last point from fount of all knowledge:

A court-martial (plural courts-martial, as "martial" is postpositive) is a military court. A court-martial is empowered to determine the guilt of members of the armed forces subject to military law, and, if the defendant is found guilty, to decide upon punishment.

[handsfree]

From the headers on the 8th December 2016 list
(from the link on post number 11"

"Rank must be in full with no abbreviations"

Rank of 2nd case down is given as "Sgt" and the 5th as "SAC".

Rules is rules .......

[Pontius Navigator]

From the headers on the 8th December 2016 list
(from the link on post number 11"

"Rank must be in full with no abbreviations"

Rank of 2nd case down is given as "Sgt" and the 5th as "SAC".

Rules is rules .......


Rule is the rule :)

[1208]

Maybe it helps with the spelling its difficult to get Sgt wrong .

[Lonewolf_50]

Sergeant
Sergeant, sometimes serjeant ... origins are in the Latin serviens, "one who serves", through the French term sergent. In most armies the rank of sergeant corresponds to command of a squad (or section).


We used to refer to one particularly annoying man of French Canadian extraction, a senior NCO in the USAF, as "Sir John T" (which is a bad play on words from serjeant). That guy was all up himself, and tried to be overly familiar with the officers, as USAF habits accrue, but those of us from the other three services didn't quite care for the country club casual mode of the USAF. One Marine major was particularly good at getting him to remember to mind his manners ...

[Fortissimo]

I lost my house and a big chunk of pension at a Court Marital. Does that mean I should be on the list as well??

[Tankertrashnav]

Sergeant, sometimes serjeant ... origins are in the Latin serviens, "one who serves",

Apparently the reason why there are no sergeants (or serjeants) in the cavalry in the British Army is because they did not like the idea of their NCOs being described as "servants". To this day all cavalry NCOs from lance corporal upwards are described as corporals of varying grades (corporal of horse, corporal major etc).

All very confusing!

[Sloppy Link]

Nearly right. You are referring to the Household Cavalry made up of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals or more correctly Royal Horse Guards/Dragoons. Other Royal Armoured Corps Regiments, be they Hussars, Cavalry, Lancers or Dragoons use the same rank structure and naming convention as the remainder of the Army. Colour Sergeant in place of Staff Sergeant is peculiar to the Infantry only and of course, Bombadier/Lance Bombadier replacing Corporal/Lance Corporal in the Royal Artillery. The other peculiarity of the Houshold Division is the Foot Guards Lance Corporal will wear two chevrons, a Corporal equivalent is termed a Lance Sergeant and wears three chevrons. A full Sergeant is only distinguished in formal wear (gold vs white chevrons), in working dress, the rank slides are indistinguishable.
From my memory so may not be absolutely correct.

[KenV]

Nearly right. You are referring to the Household Cavalry made up of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals or more correctly Royal Horse Guards/Dragoons. Other Royal Armoured Corps Regiments, be they Hussars, Cavalry, Lancers or Dragoons use the same rank structure and naming convention as the remainder of the Army. Colour Sergeant in place of Staff Sergeant is peculiar to the Infantry only and of course, Bombadier/Lance Bombadier replacing Corporal/Lance Corporal in the Royal Artillery. The other peculiarity of the Houshold Division is the Foot Guards Lance Corporal will wear two chevrons, a Corporal equivalent is termed a Lance Sergeant and wears three chevrons. A full Sergeant is only distinguished in formal wear (gold vs white chevrons), in working dress, the rank slides are indistinguishable.
From my memory so may not be absolutely correct.Oh my goodness. And I thought the US Navy was saddled with hundreds of years of tradition unhampered by progress. :)

[MPN11]

All infintely better than being an RAF pilot officer (remember them?) with the almost invisible thin 'ring'.

"Oh, there's something on your shoulder ... oh, sorry, it's your rank braid" :)

[cooheed]

Having edited the original thread title, what is there is now correct. Those thinking otherwise please follow the links in posts 3 & 4 where the title used by HMG is Court Martial Results (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/court-martial-results-from-the-military-court-centres).

Rather disturbing to see a victim named in the Nov 16 results above.

[Rosevidney1]

The spelling is appalling. I expected better of the civil service.

[Dan Winterland]

The spelling is appalling. What I expect of the civil service.

[teeteringhead]

The Green Jackets - so presumably now the Rifles - had/have Serjeants rather than Sergeants...

One recalls all the Mess signs being repainted when they became resident battalion at Aldergrove!

[Vortex_Generator]

Just to add to the confusion some Household Cavalry rank insignia looks like other army insignia but means something different. For example, a Lance Corporal of Horse (Corporal equivalent) wears 3 chevrons and a crown, similar to a staff/colour sgt in the rest of the army.

[Tankertrashnav]

The other peculiarity of the Household Division is the Foot Guards Lance Corporal will wear two chevrons, a Corporal equivalent is termed a Lance Sergeant and wears three chevrons.

Thanks for the correction re Household Cavalry Sloppy Link. My father was a lance sergeant in the Scots Guards, and I still have his tunic which dates from 1923, complete with its white chevrons.

I had a chum, now deceased, who had been a Conductor in the the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, (later the Royal Logistics Corps) who were at the time the most senior warrant officers in the British Army. This obviously rankled with the guards, so much so that in recent years they have invented the new appointment of Army Sergeant Major, whose holder takes precedence over conductors in the RLC.

[The Oberon]

Thanks for the correction re Household Cavalry Sloppy Link. My father was a lance sergeant in the Scots Guards, and I still have his tunic which dates from 1923, complete with its white chevrons.

I had a chum, now deceased, who had been a Conductor in the the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, (later the Royal Logistics Corps) who were at the time the most senior warrant officers in the British Army. This obviously rankled with the guards, so much so that in recent years they have invented the new appointment of Army Sergeant Major, whose holder takes precedence over conductors in the RLC.

Ah, not the old who is senior RSM argument. It was always a 3 way fight between the most senior Conductor, GSM Londist and the Sandhurst RSM. It went on for decades until the Army Sergeant Major was established.

[MPN11]

Ah, not the old who is senior RSM argument. It was always a 3 way fight between the most senior Conductor, GSM Londist and the Sandhurst RSM. It went on for decades until the Army Sergeant Major was established.
Which then led to the interesting situation where WO1 Glenn Haughton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Haughton) is actually a Captain, but serves as a WO1 as Army Sergeant Major, until he completes a Staff course and becomes a Major.

I love the way the Army does things :)

[Sloppy Link]

TTN - Please, not a correction, an expansion of what you had posted.
VG - Continuing the theme of an expansion, LCoH is three chevrons and a cloth crown (Cpl equivalent), CoH is the same with a metal crown (Sgt equivalent). SCpl is four chevrons inverted with a crown (SSgt/CSgt equivalent).....worn on the lower sleeve. Warrant Officer Class I/II is the rank, it is the appointment that carries to become.....Squadron Corporal Major, Regimental Quartemaster Corporal and the Regimental Corporal Major.

As for senior Warrant Officer, again, the rank is Warrant Officer Class I, it is the appointment that counts. The litmus test is pay scales, broadly, all are paid the same for their rank (unless they have been commissioned but are, in the interests of the Service, held at their current rank. There is an equation such they are not disadvantaged when they finally wear their commissioned rank in both pay increments and seniority)

Again, apologies if my memory isn't quite there.

[Tankertrashnav]

The pseudo rank/appointment of Army Sergeant Major may be the most senior, but conductor is most certainly the oldest, and comes from the time when England did not have a standing army. When troops were needed for foreign campaigns it was the job of the conductor to assemble men and to "conduct" them to their port of embarkation. Later, the appointment became conductor of ordnance, and now it was his job to ensure that artillery and other heavy ordnance got to the ships.

Nothing to do with bands or buses !

[WilliumMate]

Back to Courts Martial. If memory serves me, we had one onboard my ship at sea while passaging the Indian Ocean in summer 1979. Quite a rare occasion I believe in modern times.

[Wrathmonk]

we had one onboard my ship at sea while passaging the Indian Ocean

What was the outcome? Cat'o'nine tails? Flogging? Hanging at the yard-arm?;):p

[WilliumMate]

Nah, that would have brightened things up a bit. I believe he got off with it. Passage of time and rum has dulled the memory somewhat but I'm off to the National Archives next week so I'll have a look at the records.

:)

[goudie]

As a Master at Arms my father attended Court Martials on HMS Victory. He stood next to the accused holding a sword. As it was rather heavy he would jab it in to the beam above, as countless MAA's had done before him, to take the weight. Apparently the marks in the beam are still there.

[Slow Biker]

Interesting to read the off thread discussion on Army warrant officer appointments/seniority. I often worked with the army and when discussing seniority I took the view that my RAF 'gallopers' are the same as Army gallopers, perhaps not so elaborate, but neither was senior to the other; appointment was an internal matter. There was never any argument and we always worked well together.

[WilliumMate]

What was the outcome? Cat'o'nine tails? Flogging? Hanging at the yard-arm?;):p

Sometimes you begin to doubt your memory but I retrieved the original ships log at the NA yesterday and it showed Mon 25th June 1979 at 0900 the Court Martial gun was fired and the Union Flag broken. Recommenced at 0900 the next day and finished at 1105, not guilty. Ships position at 0900 Monday was 10.8014S 78.6850E which when plotted on google maps is more or less half way between Diego Garcia and Freemantle. Also on the Tuesday we worked a Sunday Sea Routine with interdepartmental sports competitions and in the evening the Norvision Golden Tonsil Contest which seems to have passed me by. Got the images but I'm buggered if I can upload them.

:)

[Ogre]

I always thought that Sergeant (regardless how you spell it) was derived from the Greek "Slave".

Mind you, discussing the derivation with my immediate line manager on one posting did not go well, he concluded that if that was the case he would immediately put through the paperwork to get me acting-Sgt and treat me accordingly....

[Wrathmonk]

WilliumMate

Cracking post - love the "Court Martial gun was fired".

Bit concerned about this though:

Norvision Golden Tonsil Contest

Is that more 'jack-speak' for 'hunting the golden rivet (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=golden%20rivet)'?:eek:

[WilliumMate]

Norvision was the ship's (HMS Norfolk) small TV studio which we used sporadically for quizzes, competitions and such like entertainment over CCTV. No videos or DVDs then. I can't for the life of me remember it so I must have been on watch steering the bloody thing again. On the whole a very happy ship and a cracking deployment.

[tmmorris]

I always thought that Sergeant (regardless how you spell it) was derived from the Greek "Slave".

Mind you, discussing the derivation with my immediate line manager on one posting did not go well, he concluded that if that was the case he would immediately put through the paperwork to get me acting-Sgt and treat me accordingly....

Latin 'serviens' (one who serves) allegedly. Making the j the correct spelling historically speaking.

[langleybaston]

Interesting to read the off thread discussion on Army warrant officer appointments/seniority. I often worked with the army and when discussing seniority I took the view that my RAF 'gallopers' are the same as Army gallopers, perhaps not so elaborate, but neither was senior to the other; appointment was an internal matter. There was never any argument and we always worked well together.

Yes, there you have it.
There is, I believe, a difference between seniority in the rank, and the seniority of the appointment.
Over many years there has been huffing and puffing among the army WO Is, but, unless there have been recent changes, the WO I precedence of appointment [as opposed to the date on the Warrant] was divided into 3 or 4 classes.
The top class comprised [with the usual caveats about amendments] ALPHABETICALLY ONLY Conductors, Garrison SMs, Master Gunners 1st Class. QRs and KRs spelled out that seniority among these equals was determined by date of warrant and not by appointment.

In reality, a Conductor carrying out his duties, or a garrison SM [or indeed an RAF SWO or a Ship's Master at Arms] would have absolute authority.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Dead right, however the most senior WO1 by appointment always used to be the Academy Sergeant Major of Sandhurst. Not sure if this has been superceded by the fairly recent appointment of Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces ?

NEO

[Rosevidney1]

In Middle English: A tenant by military service below the rank of knight; esp. one attending a knight in the field.

Aren't dictionaries fun?

[SpannerInTheWerks]

Interesting for me, as a civilian, to read just how many offences occur.

I suppose many people see a Court(s) Martial as a irregular event, not everyday fare.

If the Report was untitled, some of the charges could read like a list of offences of prisoners in gaol, rather than officers and wo/men in the Armed Forces.

[langleybaston]

Dead right, however the most senior WO1 by appointment always used to be the Academy Sergeant Major of Sandhurst. Not sure if this has been superceded by the fairly recent appointment of Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces ?

NEO
This is a fairly recent QR but the Army Sergeant Major has certainly jumped into, or above, Group (i) shown below. Membership of Group (1) has varied over the years from 1881 when other soldiers were Warranted in addition to Conductors, who were appointed 2 years previously.

Rank Group Appointment
Warrant Officer – class 1
(i) Conductor, RLC
Royal Artillery Sergeant Major
Academy sergeant major, RMAS
Garrison sergeant major London District
(ii) Master gunner, RA.
(iii) Garrison sergeant major (except London District).
(iv) Regimental corporal major
Regimental sergeant major.
Bandmaster
Staff sergeant major. RLC or AGC(SPS)
Sergeant major
Any other appointment on the establishment of a unit or corps carrying the rank of warrant officer, class 1, e.g. artificer sergeant major, superintending draughtsman.

a. Groupings. By custom, and for administrative purposes, appointments of warrant officers are listed in the groups shown in para 9.169. Notwithstanding seniority as laid down in para 9.164 a warrant officer may exercise authority over those of equal rank in other groups, when required to do so in the execution of the duties of his appointment.

MY NOTE: "in other groups" does not stop the pushing and shoving within a group

[Davef68]

Dead right, however the most senior WO1 by appointment always used to be the Academy Sergeant Major of Sandhurst. Not sure if this has been superceded by the fairly recent appointment of Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces ?

NEO

Army Sergeant Major (Sergeant Major of the Army is the US equivalent)

Equivalent as the senior enlisted person of the Service to Chief of Air Staff's Warrant Officer, Warrant Officer of the Naval Service or Corps Sergeant Major in the Royal Marines

Of course your point makes me wonder who has seniority out of all of those to be senior NCO in the British Forces.......:)

[langleybaston]

Before a Warrant Officer jumps into print, Warrant Officers as such are in no way NCOs in the British service of course.

From memory there was a hoohah on the subject c. 1885 when a minor functionary made that mistake in print. It was sharply and officially corrected. Subsequent Queens and Kings have maintained that line in [I]Regulations for the Army.

A partial cause of slight blurring might be that both WOs and SNCOs inhabit the same mess.

[Davef68]

Before a Warrant Officer jumps into print, Warrant Officers as such are in no way NCOs in the British service of course.


Noted and corrected!

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

The most senior WO in the Forces should be the Warrant Officer of the Naval Service; that is after all the senior service isn't it ? Just putting two and two together.......

NEO